Chicago Traffic Stop... What did I just watch?

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by visible25, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. visible25

    visible25 MassCops Member

    I'm clearly not a LEO, but do they teach crossfire and other safety tactics? This could've been so much worse had the driver started shooting.



    Thoughts?
     
    Last edited: Sep 27, 2015
  2. HousingCop

    HousingCop Czar of Cyncism and Satire

    I do not critique other cops..... That is my thought. There's over 2500 years of law enforcement experience on that scene. I don't see anything wrong.
     
    BxDetSgt, zm88, Goose and 4 others like this.
  3. bok

    bok MassCops Member

    Yes, we do.
    Life is ugly - occurring fast, painful and hard.
    Training and the real world are two entirely separate and distinct actions when in situations such as this dynamic Chicago example.
    I can only speak for my experiences and they speak loudly....
     
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  4. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    Is it me or was one of those guys wearing a Patriots jersey ?
     
  5. FourInchFury

    FourInchFury MassCops Member

    His role was to deflate the tires.
     
  6. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    Do we know what the suspects are wanted for? I'll let someone else (Hush perhaps) start but there's a lot of things wrong with this incident... a lot.

    On my department we critique ourselves all the time, good and bad, it's one of the ways we get better for next time and we don't see anything wrong with doing it.... respectfully of course. It's done in professional sports all the time so why wouldn't we do it in police work? After all in sports it's only a game, in our profession it could be life or death.

    EDIT:
    I just watched it again and I can't believe what I'm seeing. The multiple crossfires alone, especially with rifles, are unbelievable. I'm thinking the same thing you are visible: What did I just watch?!
     
    Last edited: Sep 28, 2015
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  7. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    The only thing that video is missing is the Benny Hill theme. There is so much fail in that video, my hands are cramping up just thinking about typing a response. And it's a training fail, on an epic level. This is not a unique situation, nor is it extremely rare.
    I don't know any of the story, but there are a lot of plainclothes on scene, wondering if it's something they initiated or if something they were watching got out of hand. You can see that just the IFF issues alone can be a problem.
    What is the rush??? It didn't appear to be a hostage situation. The car is stopped, immobilize it and treat it like a barricaded suspect. Spike strips, blocking vehicles, bearcat, etc.
    How many responding officers "self-dispatched"? Everyone remembers how that worked in Watertown. These things unfold fast, but with no order or direction it can fall apart faster...with a lot of friendly fire.
    Spotted a few officer Rambos....lets approach the van ALONE . Even better, the geniuses who climbed INTO the van. Let's get as close to the suspect as possible, in case one of the hundred officers outside needs to take a shot. Gotta love the guy that just fires a rock through the back window.
    Auto glass is tricky, tinted even more so. What is the policy on using LL to port it?
    I posted before about the CSAT Glass Assault Tool....

    Honestly, if you don't see the gigantic issues with this video that need addressing....you are probably part of the problem.
     
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  8. visible25

    visible25 MassCops Member

    I caught that too and couldn't stop laughing, somehow found that tiny action hilarious
     
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  9. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    Not on the original topic, but RE: critiquing/criticizing. There is absolutely nothing wrong with it, that's how learning occurs. You can train in advance, or learn from the spilled blood of your brothers. Sometimes, circumstances become so bad, the incident is analyzed and studied like the 1986 Miami firefight or North Hollywood. Just because this capture happened without a shot fired, it is not a "success" as many will see it, it was a near disaster of epic proportion. It should be used in academy classes of what never ever to do.
    This is a critical report on a bank robbery, chase, and shoutout in which a hostage was killed by police gunfire. It was a shitshow based on the actions of some extremely dangerous gang members, and a terrible position to be in for the involved officers. But it's broken down and analyzed to see how to better respond in the future. Debriefs should be held on all incidents. Not just the ones that go badly, but even more importantly on successful operations to find weak points that could be improved. Just because you did the job without incident, doesn't mean it couldn't be done better or safer the next time around. All too often people are too busy patting themselves and each other on the back to stop and realize where things almost went to shit, or something to improve on next time around.
    http://www.policefoundation.org/wp-...A-Heist-Gone-Bad-Critical-Incident-Review.pdf
     
  10. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    Hush, you got it right (as usual), that's for sure!

    There are so many tactical issues with this incident. I'd like to see if anyone else on here can pick them out. Hush hit on a few but there are a bunch more. Visible?
     
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  11. Crazy Otto

    Crazy Otto Working for the clampdown

    To echo what Hush said, debriefs are important. My particular group has started doing debriefs after some of our bigger incidents. A debrief doesn't have to be a formal affair - most of ours are the troops having a coffee and rehashing the event. Can last for 5 minutes.
    Some of the really big stuff we will use in the future as a scenario for a training exercise. Multiple agencies and specialties. Some exercises run for 2 or three days.
    This particular Charlie Foxtrot should be viewed at police academies as a learning tool. It has great value. Lessons learned could save lives.
     
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  12. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    Agreed Otto, debriefs are important. We do them after every major tactical incident as well. They are always informal and are always done in order to learn from them. We do them at scene, immediately after the incident while everyone involved is still there and it's still fresh. (See debrief thread)

    This incident definitely needed a debrief, especially after everyone involved watched this video.
     
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  13. visible25

    visible25 MassCops Member

    Without trying to step on Hush too much, I see the following;
    - Crossfire hazzards up the ying-gang (obviously)
    - Unprotected officers such as the one who advances to the van then backs away to the...front of the cruiser
    - Incoherent screaming, especially when one of them jumps on the megaphone
    - Officer with the protective shield was in the back
    - No one took command
    - And to cap it off, we've got the guy around the 2:40-2:49 mark who's next to the van trying to break the window, and goes chasing after the gear that gets tossed to him, taking him away from the side of the vehicle and more or less parallel to the front passenger seat where he could've easily been shot at.

    Did I miss anything?
     
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  14. Truck

    Truck MassCops Member

    Only one offense could bring about this response. It's obviously a clear cut case of contempt of cop.
     
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  15. RodneyFarva

    RodneyFarva Get off my lawn!

    ask Dic Donohue about cross fire tactics....
     
  16. mpd61

    mpd61 Federal Auxiliary Police

    Amazing how you still had two (2) fellas with M-4's at the ready, pointed INTO the car with the dogpile inside.....:oops:
    I did see that the MAJORITY of the folks quickly holstered up handguns as they approached the car;)
     
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  17. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    Possible hesitation due to current political climate ?

    Just throw'n it out there
     
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  18. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    Visible, for someone who is not on the job yet, you did pretty good. There's still a bunch more but you did a good job.
     
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  19. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    I saw lack of hesitation as a problem. Lack of leadership, lack of a plan. I'd like to know more abut the nature of the incident.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
     
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  20. visible25

    visible25 MassCops Member

    Working on trying to find some sort of report of this somewhere..

    And thanks LA, I suppose I have learned something from my few years of being on this site ;)
     
  21. Kilvinsky

    Kilvinsky I think, therefore I'll never be promoted.

    The back window got broken, as I see it because that guy said either: a) I will now have a clear view into the vehicle from the back, just in case; or b) shit, I gotta get in on the breaking shit!

    As for the incoherent yelling, we're all trained over and over again, VOICE COMMAND. "POLICE! DON'T MOVE! HANDS UP!" etc. What never seems to be covered is, NOT EVERYONE HAS TO YELL! But everyone does. I believe when the guy got on the PA, he was actually TRYING to take charge. That's how I saw it. He ordered everyone out of the street and tried to be a single command voice over all the yelling (which come to think of it, "Blues Brothers" anyone?-HUT HUT HUT HUTHUT!) but it just wasn't working as well as it should.
     
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  22. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    “No battle plan survives contact with the enemy ”
    Helmuth von Moltke





     
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  23. BxDetSgt

    BxDetSgt MassCops Member

    I see nothing wrong at ALL with that stop. A dynamic, changing event with a quick and large urban response. That is the reality of what happens in urban policing every day. I thought they were too slow to make entry if anything. Once you start the LE Macherena you should finish it. Do not forget that this is not the first rodeo for any of these guys. There was no real crossfire issues that I saw. None that could not be alleviated with trigger discipline and target recognition. The PC officers were clearly ID'd. The scene control was very good for that type of scene. I know it will drive our west coast cops and Special Ops members crazy, but that is the reality of urban police work. Not for nothing Visible, I don't think your ROTC background really allows you to critique a situation you have never been in. Training and real life are completely different. There is also a big distinction between west and east coast police work. Both have their pluses and minuses, but they are both institutionally ingrained in the departments. Good work as usual CPD. Bring on the haters....
     
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  24. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    It worked, should the discussion end there? It was based on luck, not strategy, tactics, or training. Why not work on doing it better and safer?
     
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  25. Danusmc0321

    Danusmc0321 MassCops Member

    You said it, training and real life are completely different. You can train a million times for this exact scenario and it might run a little smoother, but if your watching it after from a video above the scene it will probably look exactly the same to an untrained eye. I'm not saying its not good to learn and debrief and you HAVE to train, but it isn't a video game and doesn't always look pretty. Some people that have no real world experience but have a ton of training have a unrealistic view that people should act and respond the exact same way they do in training when there is no adrenalin. As one of my instructors said, "stop trying to make it look sexy, this ain't a fuckin movie, get it done". With that said I'm not knocking you guys for picking out the flaws, but keep it in mind that if I put seal team 6 out there, with an over head camera it's probably not going to look as sexy as you were hoping.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015

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