Chicago Traffic Stop... What did I just watch?

Discussion in 'Shop Talk' started by visible25, Sep 27, 2015.

  1. BxDetSgt

    BxDetSgt MassCops Member

    It was not based on luck, they knew exactly what they were doing and how they wanted to do it. They had officers approach and open up the windows, then when he did not comply they entered and extracted. I am not a fan at all of sitting back and ordering perps to do a silly 12 step dance getting out of a vehicle. Swarm and extract works. It is not as sexy as COPS, but it gets it done. I did not see any real crossfire issues. The boss was in control of the scene. The two that approached were not acting alone, but were sent to open the windows, and they were the only two that approached. One officer stood cover while the other broke out the windows. Once the rear window was open the driver was covered and the car was cleared. Only then did they swarm. Why stand around and yell at a guy who is not listening anyway. The longer it goes on the more risk there is for those on scene.
     
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  2. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    Interesting to have two Sgt's from big cities with completely different views on this stuff.

    Have been a guest with LACopper and have mad respect for the job he does in that city and absolutely love NYPD and the awesome time those goes roll out when visiting their city.

    Not a cop so i try not to critique this stuff. If anything would give officers on scene benefit of the doubt.
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2015
  3. Kilvinsky

    Kilvinsky I think, therefore I'll never be promoted.

    You know something, the bottom line is, every situation is unique and until we're IN that situation, we can plan all we want but what we do in that particular moment might be a total 180 degree difference from what we were trained to do. We're human. We can say, "I'd do THIS" and then when the shit hits the fan, we do THAT. WHY? because those immediate circumstances make us to THAT, not THIS. We're human, NOT robots. We can't follow a script. Rehearsals are wonderful but once faced with the actual scenario, it's not a stage play where the script dictates what we do and where we stand and how we react...it's REAL LIFE and as human beings, we may react in a manner different than how we were taught, trained, conditioned and/or used to. We're human.

    No one died. No one was seriously injured. That, no matter what, is the bottom line. Wrong/Right is what the debriefing is all about, but at that moment, that CRITICAL moment, no one died and no one was seriously injured.

    That's why I can't and won't critique actions by any PD unless it's so painfully WRONG, it hurts. I wasn't there, I cannot say.

    Monday Morning Quarterbacking is one of our BIGGEST problems, and often by those who have never ever been on the field. I don't judge harshly.
     
  4. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    LACOPPER has a ton of videos of this exact same scenario out west. It is a calm, coordinated effort. They had a ballistic shield? Make a stack and approach to port the glass. Sympathetic fire is a real issue. What if the occupant took a shot while Crouchy McGee was trying to break the window. How many of those guys would have opened up on the car. Designated shooters are important...the rifles are a good place to start.
    The one random car that pulled up parallel to the driver side. That's an easy shot for the driver to take. But it's also a good vantage point. Deploy in an L shape to get better visibility while avoiding crossfire.
    We need to know more about the occupants. Is this a known threat? Robbery/hostage/etc. Unknown? Fled a traffic stop?

    Why the resistance to critique? Sure plans fall apart, and real world isn't pretty. Doesn't mean this couldn't have been done better...a lot better. Why defend these tactics when we can break the video down and learn how to better approach it in the future? Because of fear of criticism? Reluctance to admit a weak point? Because it's more "work"?


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  5. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    Ok, here goes:

    I find it amazing that we all do the same job on different coasts yet our opinions are FAR different. I respectfully disagree 100% with some of you on this. This was not that complicated, it was a "basic" felony stop. Even if he was supposed to be armed, it was still basic... And if it was more complicated than that, all the more reason these guys went too fast.

    I think this thing was horrible from the beginning up to the end. I showed this video in roll call a few days ago without saying anything and everyone agreed it was bad, even our newest academy graduates thought so and they aren't supposed to know much yet. Definitely a much different way of looking at things out west, and especially on my department, that's for sure.

    I also work in the Big City urban environment (for 27 years now) and have been involved in hundreds of these exact types of incidents, both as an officer and as a supervisor, and only one time did it look anything like this thing and those guys got a butt chewing afterward. So, I think that I too can voice a qualified opinion about this incident, even if it is different from some others on here.

    Just because no one was wounded or killed does not make it ok. It was plain luck because there were plenty of opportunities for this to go wrong in a big way. How can we say there wasn't any crossfire? There were a bunch of crossfires, especially at the end when there were guns, including rifles, pointed in every direction toward the car and with officers standing on all sides of the car. That was the very definition of crossfire!

    What's the rush? Take your time, make a plan and make sure everyone knows what it is. Why needlessly place yourself in harm's way like the plainclothes guys did several times. I couldn't believe what I was seeing with that one, especially the guy doing the bunny hop at the side of the van. And how about the first plainclothes guy that creeps up on the van with both his weapon in one hand and what looks to be like his Taser in the other hand? How many guns were pointed at him from behind? Like Hush said, if the bad guy started shooting, you know everyone else behind the plainclothes guy(s) would have started shooting too.

    By rushing this incident like these guys did, it easily could have precipitated an unnecessary officer involved shooting. Yes, we would have waited, tried calling him out and if that didn't work, made some type of plan to get him out. Unless of course we already knew he was armed then we would have treated it like a barricaded suspect and had SWAT respond.

    Ok, bring it on!
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
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  6. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    I should have mentioned that the LAPD is not infallible. We make plenty of mistakes too but when we do, we always try to do it better the next time. I remember we had an incident similar to this a few years ago. It was live on the local TV news. I couldn't believe what I was watching after the suspect, who was involved in a vehicle pursuit, lost control of his car and crashed. Instead of falling back on their training and experiences, several of the officers "rushed" the car instead of staying behind cover and calling him out like we always do. It was terrible to watch. Apparently their captain and several members of our command staff thought so as well. Each one of those officers and the supervisor at scene were removed from the field for a while and sent for remedial training. Just because no one got hurt doesn't make it OK.

    Point being that we all make mistakes but we should still be able to recognize it when something is tactically unsound and try to do it better... AKA debriefs. I'm still amazed at the mindset difference from coast to coast. God Bless the guys in this video, I'm glad they're OK but this could have, and should have, been handled better than this.

    Hopefully we can learn from it. If we do, then something positive came out of this incident after all!
     
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  7. BxDetSgt

    BxDetSgt MassCops Member

    Why wait for a stack, Crouchy McGee was covered the entire time, and once that window was gone the threat was over and the perp was covered. Why wait for a team when you have the people you need right there. I have never, and will never, understand the need to sit on a busy residential street and yell at a guy who is not going to listen anyway.
     
  8. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    He was exposed and in the line of fire from both sides. We all know police marksmanship...he would have been cut to pieces.


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  9. BxDetSgt

    BxDetSgt MassCops Member

    LA I understand your issues with this, however I see it more as two different view points. I realize that you guys do it the west coast way, and that is ingrained in all west coast LE agencies. We do not always do it that way. We tend to use the felony stop when it is a one unit stop, or a solo unit waiting for back up. Scene control is always an issue, and we tend to send everyone to a job like that. Multiple units with multiple supervisors, and usually the highest ranking member does not have a lot of "field" experience. That is an issue, however the volume that our guys deal with tends to work in our favor. I can not rmember ever losing a cop, or even an NYPD cop shot, during a swarm type stop. I know of a lot more guys getting hurt during ESU operations than car stops. I have no problem with a critique, or debrief ater an event, but I do not think it needs to be formalized like LA does it. Peers and supervisors can take care of it informally. The designated shooter concept and crossfire issues are real, and need to be addressed, however I did not see the issues you guys did. There were a lot of guns out, but they were all trained on the car. The two that approached were sent by another boss, and were covered. Like I said once that window was gone, there was no more issue. The long guns were out, but seemed to be held at a modified port, instead of being pointed. I also heard the supervisors continuosly reminding members about cover, and crossfire. All in all it is a different system, but it does not mean it is wrong. I really have a problem with sitting around and yelling at a guy who is not going to listen. Why wait for ESU or SWAt when you have that many cops already there. Also, remember that those plainclothes guys have a ton of experience, I tend to trust them to make good decisions. I have nothing against west coast practices,but I do not think they work well here. We expect our cops to evaluate and respond, not based on a formulated and drilled text, but rather to adapt and respond to the actual conditions and event in front of them. Both systems work, and it really comes down to what agency feels comfortable with. To ask BPD, NYPD, or CPD to change to west coast mentality is not fair to the guys trained in their traditions. The west coast style comes out of a more rural, less resource heavy tradition, that stresses waiting for backup. The east coast sytems come out of an urban system, where back up is readily available, and overwhelming force and speed and rapid decision making is stressed. I would much rather have a scene run by a Sgt., who is trusted to make a quick decision to move, rather than waiting for a Lt. or higher to respond and take control. We do that with actual barricaded cases, and they drag on for days. Just my thoughts. I love our west coast brothers, but I am and always will be an east coast guy. Kojack, leather, and a coaca bolla boys. Stay safe. (BTW the west coast guys are definatley prettier than those of us buttoned up in the snow, I will concede that point.)
     
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  10. Danusmc0321

    Danusmc0321 MassCops Member

    I don't believe that one technique works for every situation. LA you were talking about the pursuit that your guys jumped on him after the crash and that's not the way you are trained. My opinion, respectfully, I think it should be on the discretion of the guys on the ground. Maybe your lead ofc saw that he just crashed, saw he wasn't capible of reacting and wanted get on him quickly, catch him with his pants down before he has time to think about it, setup to react. Violence of action wins on most occasions, but can be very dangerous if not done with multiple people, just ask Mario Oliveira. I've done these both ways, swarm and slow, neither would work for every situation. But going slow is most of the time safer for everyone. I was on the pursuit on the pike with the Hadley cop a few weeks back. Went about as smooth as I've ever see, and we went slow set up in an L with lethal and non lethal cover, and talked him out. The perp just couldn't stand the LT that was the contact officer. Point is, whatever you do, do. if you swarm, swarm, don't half ass it. If you set up, then do it the right way.
     
    Last edited: Sep 30, 2015
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  11. PBC FL Cop

    PBC FL Cop Subscribing Member

    That's what the guy gets for not updating his inspection sticker ;)
     
  12. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    The West Coast guys are better looking.

    It must be the tan :cool:
     
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  13. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    It's the physical fitness and smart uniform.
     
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  14. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    Someone has a "man crush" :D
     
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  15. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    A long read:

    BX, as you know, I too am from the east coast, Massachusetts specifically, so I do understand being an east coaster. I have been on a ton of ride alongs back there in Mass and New Hampshire with different departments since being on the job and I will agree with you, it is an east coast thing. I see what I would consider tactical nightmares almost every time so it's consistent.

    We don't have lieutenants or higher show up to a "basic felony stop" such as this one, they're always patrol sergeants. These happen countless times every day out here, like they probably do in New York or Chicago. I've been involved in hundreds of these and like I said before, I respectfully disagree on this one. I don't understand how we can see things so differently but that's just being human I guess.

    While it's important to take the bad guy in custody, it's just as important for us to go home safely. Placing ourselves in harm's way like these guys did in this video boggles my mind. The City of Los Angeles is just as much an urban city as New York, we are not rural at all. (Don't know where you got that idea.) We also do things different than many west coast agencies so I guess it's more the LAPD way and not necessarily the west coast way.

    On the vast majority of incidents like these, there's nothing wrong with taking our time and having a plan. Rushing things in incidents like this can cause chaos and nothing good comes out of chaos. I obviously can't speak for New York, Chicago or Massachusetts, but many of our gangsters are armed during incidents like this. Rushing up there and "swarming" them like this is just asking for trouble.

    And what about in 2015, with terrorists and ISIS folks coming onto American soil, especially there in New York, Boston, and DC. If this happened to be one of them (or the Boston Marathon bomber brothers), those officers would all be wounded or dead, especially if he had a bomb with him. This swarming tactic may have worked years ago but we have to change with the times. Watching the old Dragnet and Adam-12 shows and some of our old Department videos, I could see some of our old tactics. We have evolved and improved over the years. Think of it like this: How did we fight during the Revolutionary War? We stood in lines waiting to be mowed down by the enemy. Over the years our tactics evolved and we got better. That same principle should apply to police tactics.... in my opinion.

    Dan, I agree that it's usually with the discretion of the officers at scene, but some things are pretty obvious and this was one of them. Many of our pursuits are shown live on the local news and their cameras get in pretty close on the drivers so this one was pretty clear cut, especially to those of use who have been doing this job for years.

    I enjoy these types of spirited conversations, helps to keep things lively.
     
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2015
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  16. gm7988

    gm7988 MassCops Member

    This must have been what it looked like after the Hawks won the cup. Hopefully someone gets that joke.

    This was very chaotic and I certainly can't put myself in an environment like Chicago, Detriot , LA, or NYC. It took 2 minutes for anyone to get on the PA. Obviously it was hectic but no matter what, I hope these guys debfriefed at the end of this cluster.

    As an east cost LE, I can say none of my involvment in felony stops have looked like that. Then again, my last felony stop on a stolen car resulted in the back up officer uncuffing the driver because he knew her and didn't think she had done anything wrong...let that one sink in...

    All in all this looked ugly start to finish. Maybe its how they do it and get things done...
     
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  17. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    I'll bet there was ZERO debrief, just a whole lot of backslapping and "did you see me smash the window?" Probably got some commendations out of it.


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  18. mpd61

    mpd61 Federal Auxiliary Police

    I'd like to think some of our campus agencies would do better...........
    ;)
     
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  19. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    Armed or unarmed


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  20. bok

    bok MassCops Member

    Why would there be a debriefing for a "felony stop"?!!
    There is no such thing here; East Coast; largest MA. Police agency.

    The involved officers SHOULD receive a good boy letter.
    There are no continuous training for high risk traffic stops; encounters or incidents falling into other police involved activity.
    One training period is given at a police academy during the patrol procedures section.
    Actually policing in an high crime area w/ an active department; district, barracks, area gives you the experience to carry through successfully with high risk encounters.
    I've been involved in pursuit ending incidents such as the Chicago PD example more often than not. It's a norm in the metro-Boston area to react in a decisive, quick, active, strong manner in that type of situation. You are only as good as the guys you work with.
     
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  21. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    It's true that policing is regional. What works one place, might not necessarily work the other. LAPD has some rigid tactics and procedures that might not be applicable everywhere. They also have a different breed of "bad guy" out there. While there are baddies everywhere, what is unheard of here is common there ie ambush attacks. When is the last time someone threw shots at a patrol car on a stop here? Ask LACOPPER about how often it happens there....as when he was on the receiving end.
    That said, I still think there is a difference between a swarm "technique" and just swarming. "It worked" isn't good enough for me, if my life was on the line every day. I spend my own time and money seeking out training...and I don't even have the job yet. I can't get guys on the job to go to free training, let alone paying for something. You can spot the sharp one out there, they're just the ones with the triple mag carriers and personally purchased equipment.


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  22. Joel98

    Joel98 MassCops Member

    My first department was also a 'large urban department' in southern CA, that experiences the same volume of crime as NYC or Boston. Felony stops like this were done on a weekly basis, we did them so much and so often that they were a well orchestrated and well organized procedure, and done in a SAFE and SMART manner, not like this shit-show in the video. The only thing this video shows is how officers get killed and hurt in the line of duty.
     
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  23. LA Copper

    LA Copper Subscribing Member

    Bok, I agree. For a "basic" felony car stop where everything went fine, we wouldn't debrief it either. However, if it went bad, like I believe this one did in a BIG way, then we would debrief it. This incident NEEDS to be debriefed although it would appear that some of us on here think so and some of us don't.

    Our department does felony traffic stops anywhere between 20-30 times a day. If we did stuff like this out here, we would lose about 15-20 officers a year, killed or wounded. If this bad guy decided to go "out with a bang" (pun intended), several of those officers would have gone with him.

    If these were my guys, we'd be getting together for a little chat so it didn't happen again. There would be no good boy letters here, only bad boy ones, figuratively speaking of course. Once again, different mindset from you guys.
     
  24. bok

    bok MassCops Member

    An answer to your question(s):
    Cruiser Shot At - June 23, 2015 - Mansfield; State Trooper
    Officer Shot - March 27, 2015 - Roxbury; BPD PO John Moynihan

    While your brief report on LA is nice, a knowledgable cop understands the regional contrast per capita violent crime incident index and officer involved shots fired incident index between LA to Boston, a cop is more interested in the region they work and what effects our policing practices.
    It becomes clearer that you are not a police officer in Massachusetts. Best of luck in your law enforcement journey to become a police officer. If and when you have a badge pinned on your chest, the action of theory vs practice will become clearer.
     
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  25. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    Mansfield was a black powder rifle, I believe. Ambush or poacher...
    Officer Moynihan...that is a different discussion. But I believe that video had already been thoroughly discussed in a west coast roll call. Perhaps it's worthy of a discussion here too.


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