No Pref for the Full Time Academy?

Discussion in 'Civil Service' started by mancrush, Nov 11, 2011.

  1. mancrush

    mancrush MassCops Member

    I find it a bit funny that the Civil Service does not give any preference to those who have the Massachusetts full time academy? EMT's, Vets etc deserve it, but IMO those with the full time academy should as well.

    Is there any chance that they might change this in the near future?

    Thanks
  2. j809

    j809 Subscribing Member

    Maybe not but it will help alot as you are now in a band. Chiefs can choose from Band now.
  3. tms1989

    tms1989 MassCops Member

    What? I thought it was just raw scores + pref on the most recent test, not banding
  4. irish937

    irish937 MassCops Member

    Correct. Bands are gone...for now.
  5. LGriffin

    LGriffin Mother F├╝hrer

    It's a huge advantage in the hiring process and that's really all that matters.
  6. Irishpride

    Irishpride Subscribing Member

    Without any T&E points for it though it's no help getting the hiring process started. I have always felt that prior FT academy and college degrees should qualify for T&E points for entry level exams.
  7. SgtAndySipowicz

    SgtAndySipowicz Supporting Member

    Points for police experience should be a given. Points for having graduated an academy, no. You don't know anything (how things are really done on the street etc) the day you graduate the academy........
  8. csauce777

    csauce777 Supporting Member

    I'm not saying I disagree, however, having a prior FT academy essentially erases the idea of "entry level." Entry level assumes no prior involvement in the field, much less being fully trained.
  9. Irishpride

    Irishpride Subscribing Member

    The way I look at the entry level qualification is the minimum (no previous training, experience, high school/GED). If an applicant has qualifications that exceed the minimum, I think giving them points on the exam makes perfect sense to me.
  10. csauce777

    csauce777 Supporting Member

    You're right, it does make sense. I'm not sure what my point was actually. Lol
  11. mancrush

    mancrush MassCops Member

    Agree and respectfully disagree with this point. Although there are a fair share of applicants who have the academy but do not have any LE work experience, I would say that it is more likely a person with an academy would have some type of LE experience.

    Personally, I self-sponsored through the academy, and now work for a college police department. I also have some other non munipality police experience as well. I feel that the preferance given to Vet's and EMT's should also extend to people like myself with a full time academy. Of course, I am bias. But, at the end of the day, the people selected should be the most qualified for the job. And, IMO, if a person receives extra preference for being a certified EMT-B, then a person with a full-time MPTC Academy should too.

  12. Delta784

    Delta784 Guest

    I'll agree you should get some consideration for your police experience, but I'm not too hot on the idea of just handing out automatic preference to someone who has the academy and no practical experience. Even if self-sponsoring was available when I was on the job market (it wasn't, we had to show our pay stubs to the staff each week), it would have been impossible for me, because I was in my early 20's, living in my own place, with no option to move back in with my parents (mother was dead, dad lived out of state), so I had to have a full-time+ paycheck coming in just to stay afloat.

    I had veteran's preference to carry me through, but should a non-veteran in a similar situation (self-sufficient and living on their own through no fault of their own) be passed over because someone else had the financial resources and political connections to self-sponsor themselves through an academy while mom did their laundry and cooked them dinner every night?

    If you have EXPERIENCE that brings something to the table (military veteran, police experience), then that's worthy of consideration. Should someone who graduated basic training and MOS training in the armed forces be granted preference also, simply because they completed mandated training courses, but have no practical experience?
  13. 263FPD

    263FPD Administrator Staff Member

    Just coming out of the academy w/o any time on the road makes you morning more then a trained monkey. This isn't meant to disrespect you in any way because I was that trained monkey upon academy graduation. In truth, we all were to some degree. I FTO new hires on my job. Academy gives the newbies enough ammunition to make them dangerous. It is the street experience that will define who they are and what they are capable of. Classroom training is just that, classroom. Being out there and applying what you have learned is something else entirely. I didn't know much about applying the laws and the procedure behind it all until I was on for a year or two. The knowledge was there, but knowing how to use what you know, wasn't. It came with time.

    Should one get preference for having a certificate? I don't know if that is a good idea. Just because someone had signed of on your sponsorship, it doesn't make you a good candidate for a job. I don't really care if you think you deserve it, you very well may. I have several food friends that went the self sponsored route. They started out with a Campus Department and they are now full time municipal cops. One of them had moved on to ICE and hat to go through a FLETC Academy all over again.

    You have hot a job at this tone and that is a huge plus. Leave it alone. Your time will come.
  14. Pvt. Cowboy

    Pvt. Cowboy Lemme take a selfie Staff Member

    Can't say I agree 100%.

    Most of you on this board know why... But for those that DON'T...

    I don't have the capacity to self sponsor for another two years, at least. Entry level exams like the CS or SP exam are MY chance to get on the job... Without those, well... I'd still be up shits creek without a paddle, but at least I have a spoon to row with at this juncture. Seems like every town/city wants academy trained... Thus reducing my chances even further. Be thankful you had the opportunity to self sponsor, as those of us with mortgages that start in the 2k range don't always gave that option because life gets involved. If anyone would like to know further my lack of self sponsoring fiduciary rational, please feel free to send me a pm.
  15. mpd61

    mpd61 Federal Auxiliary Police

    Mancrush...

    If you have the MPOC & work Full-time for a Full-service Campus PD (armed, making arrests), then you're gaining your experience points (preference). You have a job so don't be too pissed in this economy. Maybe you could enlist and get some more points? just saying.
  16. 263FPD

    263FPD Administrator Staff Member

    Mpd61 hit the nail right in the head.
  17. CJIS

    CJIS MassCops Member

    Of course they won't give you any Pref. This is the same test that gives "Tenths" of a point for for actual Experience as a LEO. They don't look at Degrees, Academys, and it is laughable at what they give for Experience as an LEO.

    Speaking for myself I am not fan of how the civil service system is conducted, because it leaves many other factors out about canidates. (education, academy, prior experience, etc.) I would much rather the system work off of Resumes along with a test to help weed people out. I also liked the band system as it gave more flexibility in theroy to the hiring authority.
  18. Delta784

    Delta784 Guest

    The only flexibility it gave was for politicians to play games and "get to" connected people.
  19. CJIS

    CJIS MassCops Member

    Yes and no. If a candidate was selected from lower band\lower score the Hiring authority needed to write a letter to the CS commission detailing why they selected that candidate over a candidate in a higher band. Could it lead from connections? Yes but that person still needed to have something that the Hiring authority could sell to the CS commission as to why they were chosen over someone higher.

    I know several people during that one year they did the band system that had pretty good political pull and they were not selected based on the hiring autority had nothing to sell to the CS commision.
  20. Hush

    Hush Moderator Staff Member

    I don't know if I believe that the academy should be given preference, but I can see the advantage for a dept that needs to put someone on the road ASAP...Of course, they'd find better candidates on the lay-off list.
  21. mtc

    mtc High Priestess Staff Member

    How many are on the lay off list now? (just curious)
  22. Delta784

    Delta784 Guest

    No offense, but you're pretty politically naive if you actually believe that. That comes from someone who was screwed over by the straight exam score system, never mind the ridiculous "banding" system....it was nothing more than to create wiggle room for political games. If you're not going to go by exam score, why bother having an exam system?
  23. CJIS

    CJIS MassCops Member

    Use the exam in conjunction with other factors.


    Here is a hypothetical.

    Lets say you are the hiring authority. You have two spots open. After sifting through Background checks you have a now have 3 top candidates. One scored a 100 one scored a 96 and the other a 91. All good scores if it was school they would be A's. You still have people on the list that have 90-s and below but these are all that are left based on going by top scores.

    They guy with the 100 Has an A.S. degree criminal justice and has no job experience.

    The guy with the 96 has no on the job experience but was in the infantry and is a vet.

    The guy with the 91 Has a B.S. Degree in Criminal Justice, Has extensive training in LE, and has several years of on the job experience as either a Campus PO or as a Reserve Officer.


    All records are clean and there is no other major factors that would disqualify any of the candidates and all interviewd very well.

    Who do you want to pick for your two spots?

    I would choose the 96 and 91

    This is what I am talking about using the scores in conjunction. You used your top three scores after you sifted out the other top scores because they failed a background. You never jumped into the test scores under 90.
  24. Irishpride

    Irishpride Subscribing Member

    Political juice is the biggest tie breaker, plain and simple.
  25. Delta784

    Delta784 Guest

    The veteran with the 96 because he/she would be ranked ahead of the non-vet 100, and the guy/gal with the 100, because you shouldn't be penalized when you ace the exam.

    If the PTB want to go to a merit system that factors in experience, then they should do it. Don't play games with "banding"....that declares open season on nepotism. When I took the CS exam, a 91 would have elicited laughs from most appointing authorities; you had to get at *least* a 98 as a non-veteran to even be considered.

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