Question and debate regarding firearms.

Discussion in 'Ask A Cop' started by Mass422, Oct 21, 2016.

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  1. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    Good evening all,
    My names Tony, I'm currently a recruit student officer at the part time academy in foxboro, SSPI. I have some questions and scenarios I'm looking for some input on.

    Scenario 1: your on duty, in a marked patrol vehicle driving and observe a man walking down the street openly carrying a firearm (pistol) in a holster. You stop the man and demand to see his LTC. He gives you his valid LTC A, with no restrictions. What would be the outcome of this encounter? Is this an arrest able offense, if so, by what statue? Is this a citable offense, If so, by what statue?

    Scenario 2: Your dispatched to the area of (x) where a concerened party has called 911 to report a man who doesn't appear to be a police officer walking down the street with a gun. On scene, the man has a valid LTC A unrestricted which he presents to you. What is the outcome of this encounter? is this an arrest able offense, if so, by what statue? Is this a citable offense, If so, by what statue?
    Thanks for any input!
     
  2. Pvt. Cowboy

    Pvt. Cowboy Lemme take a selfie Staff Member

    Why would you stop someone with a pistol in a holster?
     
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  3. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    I know merely carrying a pistol in a holster isn't a crime, even if its visable, provided you hold an LTC-A ALP, so technically there should be no reason to stop that person right? However, A lot of people argue that carrying a pistol in a holster openly by someone other than law enforcement causes alarm, and could draw attention from law enforcement for the purpose of public safety. People argue if you carry openly even with the validity of a proper LTC that allows you to do so, you can be arrested and charged, or found unsuitable if someone calls the police. What I'm wondering Is what would you even charge that person with if they are a valid LTC holder?
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
  4. mtc

    mtc High Priestess Staff Member

    I wouldn't recommend carrying open... element of surprise and dipshit busybodies cause all sorts of drama.

    But I'm no expert.
     
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  5. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    Your opinion about conceal carry or open aside, would this constitute in a citation or an arrest? Thanks for your input, it's been a debate among some of the classmates in the academy. One of our instructors say it's legal and a police officer can not take any action if the person is a valid LTC holder with no restrictions if the individual simply chooses to carry openly, and that officers are made aware of this during their in service training through case law (FRB vs Simkin). Other officers are certain they could, and would charge the person but can't think of the particular statue, or if someone feels alarmed they could charge them with disturbing the peace.
     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2016
    JR90 likes this.
  6. Danusmc0321

    Danusmc0321 MassCops Member

    Are you really a recruit right now or are you trollin?

    You can open carry with a class A. Easily googled. So there would be no charges if that's the entire scenario. Mass isn't a big open carry state so people aren't used to seeing it and might call on you. But what "alarms" one person won't "alarm" another. So that shouldn't matter if your doing it legally, not being a dingleberry, causing the issuing agency to keep getting calls about you doing stuff for shock value or whatever, because they could pull your license...This is something I would ask your crim law/procedure instructor, that's what they are there for.
     
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  7. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    Not trolling I promise. Brand new recruit, only 3rd week in for the R/I foxboro academy and we had a lot of crim law so far so not much free time to discuss in depth about one topic when class is only 3 hrs long. But our crim law instructor did in fact say it was legal, and you couldn't be arrested for it, but like you said, maybe where it's not practiced, people aren't aware and think that they could be arrested under some statue. I just wanted to get more input on the topic because whenever I would inquire about this topic I would just get people's bias opinions on open carry vs conceal and never got any fact based law regarding this. Thanks for the input I appreciate it.
     
  8. MiamiVice

    MiamiVice MassCops Member

    Not illegal, no crime, move along

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
     
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  9. Pvt. Cowboy

    Pvt. Cowboy Lemme take a selfie Staff Member

    This.

    Someone open carrying? Big deal. Don't make contact, they aren't doing anything wrong. Someone calls because they're alarmed? Fuck them. Their feelings don't trump constitutionally guaranteed rights.

    It's shit like that, that furthers the divide between the police and the citizenry.

    How many criminals you know that open carry?

    Exactly.
     
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  10. samadam78

    samadam78 MassCops Member


    Question 3... are any of you a di at the foxboro academy and do i have to worry that whole class will be doing push ups till they puke because i was to lazy to open my book and find the answers to my homework assignment myself?
     
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  11. Bloodhound

    Bloodhound MassCops Member

    Exactly right. Case law has established that without a "plus factor", you have no reason to detain someone simply for openly carrying a firearm. Plus factor being they appear to be under 21, or may be involved in criminal conduct. However, this does not apply to shotguns and rifles fyi.
     
  12. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    No sir! Haha. This wasn't a homework assignment, just a topic that seemed by law, a clear cut answer as many of you have provided, yet I'm not sure why so many officers, and recruit officers argue the legality of it as they seem to try and pick it apart and say "well.." It seems more of a bias/ emotional thing rather than actual statue law and whether a crime was actually committed. Interesting topic that I was looking for some more input on. Thanks all for the insight.
     
  13. Chitownlost

    Chitownlost Internet "expert"

    $1 worth of free advise. If you have a law question, ask your law instructor. Once you graduate, consult a lawyer (preferable a prosecutor if you can) or proven print material like ledimensions.com, legal updates and review federal, state and local law.

    While everyone here has a lot of experience and knowledge, I'd hate for you to get a bit of info that might not be 100% accurate.

    Welcome to the greatest show on earth. Keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut. Be safe.
     
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  14. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    Thank you, I appreciate your advice.
     
  15. MiamiVice

    MiamiVice MassCops Member

    At least the kid had the balls to put his name in op.

    Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk
     
  16. Pvt. Cowboy

    Pvt. Cowboy Lemme take a selfie Staff Member

    I was initially going to lay into this kid, but his respectful demeanor and honest line of questioning changed my mind.

    Living in NH, I'm very pro 2a. It's common to see someone else open carrying a firearm, but much more common to see something being printed. Just because it's a weapon, doesn't mean they're up to no good. No PC for a stop/contact.

    Bloodhound, thanks for the info on the rifle/shotgun. I didn't know that was viewed under a different legal light, honestly. Not like I'm gonna be walking around mass with one of my AR's any time soon, but it's good to know.

    Tony, some of your classmates are likely thinking they have a right to a stop because of emotions, as you said. Remember though, rights trump feelings everyday.
     
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  17. samadam78

    samadam78 MassCops Member

    Just fucking with you and you took it well and responded respectfully good job welcome to the greatest profession in the world...best fto advice i can give you eyes open mouth shut... i think your gonna be ok
     
    Mass422 likes this.
  18. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    Thank you for taking the time to reply and offer some insight on the topic, it was very helpful in helping me understand more clearly about the subject. I see other posts here have gone off the deep end, and I'm glad this post didn't go in that direction.
    Thank you to anyone else as well who contributed to my post, you guys stay safe out there, you guys are an inspiration and role models to the public, it's one of the main reasons that drives me to police work.
     
  19. k12kop

    k12kop MassCops Member

    I'm going to put this thread on my "things I learned today" list
     
  20. BxDetSgt

    BxDetSgt MassCops Member

    If you have to "stretch" or overthink to make a collar you really need to think about why you are making that collar. You should never arrest because you can, arrest because it is the right thing to do and will benefit the public safety. Too many guys arrest because they can. It is the same reason a dog licks his.....
     
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  21. JR90

    JR90 MassCops Member

    Is good ol Sergeant Neilson teaching crim law? Lol
     
  22. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    Yep! Great guy, very knowledgeable.
     
  23. JR90

    JR90 MassCops Member

    Lol
    Really good guy. I was in the previous class there
     
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  24. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    That sentiment was echoed by another city cop here on masscops.
    Why jam up a law-abiding citizen because they had a momentary lapse of reason ?
    Educate them on the folly of open carry in Massachusetts ;)
     
  25. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    I always conceal carry my MP shield. However, since our discussion about open carry, I was curious to try it. I carried openly all day today throughout my normal activities. Not one bad or awkward encounter. Most people seemed to simply dismiss the fact, or seemed not to be bothered in the least bit. I actually had one person while I was in line at dunks for my mid morning coffee say to me "I know guns are legal but don't you have to cover them up if you want to carry them in public?" Had a nice conversation about the topic that was actually a positive experience. I'm not sure if I'd open carry daily, but it sure is a lot more comfortable than my alien gear IWB holster!
     
    HuskyH-2 likes this.
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