Question and debate regarding firearms.

Discussion in 'Ask A Cop' started by Mass422, Oct 21, 2016.

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  1. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    An LTC holder was arrested not too long ago after he noticed a metal detector at the entrance to his son's graduation.
    He left the line in attempt to go back to his vehicle to secure his firearm but was stopped by campus police and arrested.

    Was not there nor am I privy to all the facts however i feel this is a case of yes, you can arrest somebody , but to what end ?
     
  2. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    But your not allowed on school property while carrying, even with an unrestricted LTC so those could have been reasonable grounds to make an arrest right?
     
  3. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    Yes, but why ?
     
  4. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    Because It's an arrest able offense to carry firearms on school property. I mean, I know I'm not a police officer yet, still in the academy, learning the mindset, but I think it all depends on the situation. There's the letter of the law, and then there is the spirit of the law, it's up to the officer to make the appropriate decision for the circumstances to use appropriate discretion and action. The LTC holder should have known schools are prohibited areas in which to carry, however, if one argued they became complacent, and made an attempt to leave the property to secure the gun off of school grounds, and the fact that he was attending his sons graduation, maybe that could be taken into consideration however, it's not required to take that into consideration, and an arrest could be made for the reason of carrying your firearm on school grounds for its simply prohibited by law.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  5. msw

    msw MassCops Member

    Grasshopper, should you make it through the Academy and become a cop, you will likely encounter lots of occasions where an arrest could be made, but that does not mean it should be made....... even if it is technically an arrestable offense. (Unless it is a mandatory arrest statute/situation, as some circumstances are in some jurisdictions.) Some arrests, plain and simple, are just chickenshit. In the example of the LTC holder attending his son's graduation, and leaving the venue to go secure his weapon, absent some extenuating circumstances other than what is described in the post (like he was an A/H), I can say without equivocation that that is a chickenshit arrest. Let me give you another example, culled from the thousands of arrests I had to review/approve over the course of almost 8 years as a Sergeant supervising Deputies working a busy patrol station in South Los Angeles a quarter century ago......

    Had a relatively new Dep come in with an arrest one day, it was for a juvenile in possession of fixed ammunition, a misdemeanor County ordinance violation. So I says, "What you got?" And he says "juvie in possession of ammo, Sarge." So I say, "What kind"? And he says “.22 ammo.” So I ask “How many rounds?” And the Dep says “one round”. Which gave me a bit of a pause. Hmmmm…… “One round of /22lr ammo?”, I ask. “Yup”, he says. So I ask, “What gang does he belong to?” And the Deputy says, “No gang, Sarge, doesn’t claim a gang, not the type, no tats, no gang colors, nothing like that.” Hmmmm….. “So why did he say he had the ammo?” And the Dep tells me, “He says he and his Dad were out in the desert over the weekend hunting rabbits, and it just probably got stuck in or accidentally left in his coat pocket.” Hmmmmm…… “And do you believe this story, Deputy?” And he replied, “Well, yes, Sergeant, I do believe it.” “And does he seem like a good kid, no attitude problem, not a dipshit kid?” “No Sarge, seems like a nice kid”. Hmmmmm…… “So why is he here under arrest Deputy?” “Well, Sarge because it is a violation of the law.” Wow. Subsequent to this little verbal exchange between us, this Deputy and I had a friendly little chat about what constitutes a proper arrest, and what does not. And I told him to get that kid out of the booking cage, drive him home and apologize to both him and his parent(s).

    Now admittedly, this is an extreme example of what we are talking about here, but still, never forget that just because you can arrest someone, it doesn’t mean that you always should.
     
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  6. Chitownlost

    Chitownlost Internet "expert"

    Unfortunately in this line of work, you will run across EVERY type of personality in existence. One of those is the type that never sees in shades of gray and can't or won't think critically.

    Another I've seen a lot is the one that thinks they are hot shit because they made an arrest. 100 times more of its a gun arrest. Doesn't matter the charge, circumstances or outcome they want an arrest and have not trouble telling you about it.

    Both are dangerous.
     
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  7. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    First off, thanks for taking the time to write all that up and offer some great advice to a new guy going through the academy. I understand a little bit better now about the fact that even if the law may read in the way to arrest someone, it seems to me what you and other guys are saying is its important to be aware of the bigger picture, zoom out of the tunnel vision of "it says arrest, I'm arresting" and do some critical thinking upon the circumstances of a situation as a whole. I think this is great advice.
     
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  8. Pvt. Cowboy

    Pvt. Cowboy Lemme take a selfie Staff Member

    MSW couldn't have nailed it down any clearer.

    You're not out there to jam up good folks that made a mistake (obv situations require different analysis) you're out there to make criminals lives miserable.

    Of course there will be people that DESERVE to be locked up because they talked you in it, but you'll encounter plenty of people who simply goofed. You really wanna screw up their career, family life, by putting the screws to them? Think about that stuff.

    Look, I'm not a cop, so my opinion on this doesn't carry as much weight as the guys and gals here that do the job. But I can also tell you that the predominant amount of folks here would see that college arrest as a chicken shit grab. The guy was trying to do the right thing by heading back to his vehicle to secure his gun... how DARE he bring a means of protection into "gun free zone."

    Pffffft. Stupid.
     
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  9. Patr8726

    Patr8726 MassCops Member

    “SWAT paramedic” arrested on gun charge – The Denver Post

    Are you paying your own way through the R/I? I'm not sure that its the best idea to draw attention to yourself in this way while an academy student, especially if you haven't gotten hired someplace yet.
     
  10. Goose

    Goose The list is long but distinguished. Staff Member

  11. Goose

    Goose The list is long but distinguished. Staff Member

    Oh. Not that this has happened on here at all:

    Open Carry on Public Transit - New Information from RTD

    Encounter with Jefferson County Sheriff AT GUNPOINT!!

    Impersonating a tactical paramedic - OpenCarry.org [Archive] - BayouShooter.com Forums

    Here's the guy's LinkedIn page. Funny how it doesn't say anything about being an EMT or medic...

    https://www.linkedin.com/in/wayne-thornton-2b0abb24
     
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  12. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    And just for the record I am not a police officer either.
    Retired Corrections and I like to play in traffic once in awhile to augment my pension ;)
     
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  13. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    would of replied sooner but had CPR- First Responder today at the academy, ive had my EMT-B cert for a few years now so it was a long and boring class! Anyways, to answer your question, yes i did pay the tuition for the academy myself. There are 37 recruit officers in my class, of which 2 of them their department covered the tuition. Upon graduation of the academy, i will be working with the department that sponsored me for the academy. Do i agree it may not be a good idea to draw attention to myself while going through the academy? Yes and no, as mentioned this is covered by statutory law, or lack of there of, prohibiting carrying a firearm openly, its a License To Carry, not a License to conceal. Also Massachusetts case law (SJC- FRB vs Simkin), and also clarified on the boards here, its 100% legal for someone to do. There is no arrest able offense here, or risk to public safety for merely carrying your firearm openly secured in a holster. From what i observed through situational awareness through out the day, i may have gotten as much as a double take before the person returned to browsing through their phone. I carried openly all day without one incident. No one seemed to even care. It seemed as though i never drew any reasonable attention to myself by the means of openly carrying. Does this mean that no one would ever become alarmed? No, im sure there may be people who may become alarmed by seeing someone other than a uniformed officer carrying a firearm, However, causing alarm by carrying a firearm legally in which the license entitled the holder to do just that is not enough to deem that license holder unsuitable, or constitutes that a crime has been committed.

    I do get what your saying; even if legal, why take the chance to cause alarm or attention? why put yourself in a position where you could potentially face problems? Because if the things we choose to do for whatever our personal reasons may be, are legal and allow us the freedom to do those things, but we choose not to do them because they may cause alarm or attention or offend someone? Or i wont do it because the majority doesn't? There is something wrong about that. Just my personal opinion.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  14. felony

    felony MassCops Member

    I see a lot of revoked LTC's for "unsuitable persons", in the future, if you open carry daily and get complaints.
     
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  15. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    But you could complain all you want, until law is passed prohibiting openly carrying, you cant revoke someones license because someone complains. Its not like only one district court ruled that, and you take a chance on another district court saying something differently, SJC ruled that. Thats like saying "here you can have this legally, but if someone complains about it or doesnt like it, ill have to take it away-even thought its not against the law- people don't like it..so."
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  16. Goose

    Goose The list is long but distinguished. Staff Member

    Bro, most Mass Chiefs are politicians in a uniform.
     
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  17. msw

    msw MassCops Member

    I realize this is not specifically an Open Carry thread, but since the discussion has drifted that way, my two cents:

    Similar to what I said before in an earlier post – just because something is a crime and you can arrest for it, doesn’t mean you should arrest for it – also, just because some particular behavior is legal, doesn’t necessarily mean you should actually go do it. I put Open Carry in that category, unless you are out hiking, on your own property, outdoors activities in rural areas, etc. But in an urban environment, especially in a relatively anti-2A state, I don’t think it is a good idea. My main reason for disliking Open Carry is that you give up the tactical advantage of concealed carry when you Open Carry. “Here’s a gun on my hip, come try and snatch it!” No thanks. Yeah, I know, you (the generic “you” not any specific “you”) are a Ninja Weapons Retention Expert; but even so, why give away the tactical advantage of concealed carry by Open Carrying? The other reason is that given today’s political climate, especially in liberal leaning states, extensive and repeated open carry activities by segments of the gun owning population could easily lead to a sufficiently increased level of uncomfortableness by non-gun-owners, that adverse legislation banning the practice could result.

    BTW, I’m a very pro-2A guy, NRA LE Firearms Instructor and Life Member for decades, etc. But for personal protection reasons, and for the potential for political fall-out from doing it, I don’t like or support Open Carry in urban or suburban areas.
     
  18. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    I feel concealing ones weapon as a tactical advantage is an offensive strategy, not a defensive one. People who want that "element of surprise" always assume they will be a bystander and not a targeted victim, the element of surprise doesn't work when you are the one being attacked for giving the impression that you are an easy target. People have many reasons why they would prefer to carry openly vs concealed. As i mentioned, i conceal carry everyday. however being legal to open carry i wanted to give it a shot. Also, thank you for your input, not trying to argue right and wrong here at all, i respect your opinion and service you provide being a firearms instructor. Also, i wouldn't say im all for open carry either, just trying to understand, ask questions and get input on how people feel about things, how the laws work, like i mentioned im in the R/I academy, so im just trying to get a grasp on alot of different material
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2016
  19. mpd61

    mpd61 Federal Auxiliary Police

    I do get what your saying; even if legal, why take the chance to cause alarm or attention? why put yourself in a position where you could potentially face problems? Because if the things we choose to do for whatever our personal reasons may be, are legal and allow us the freedom to do those things, but we choose not to do them because they may cause alarm or attention or offend someone? Or i wont do it because the majority doesn't? There is something wrong about that. Just my personal opinion.

    As an MPTC instructor, I have to take a shot in the dark here but.........................Are you the guy in the class who always asks "what if?"
     
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  20. pahapoika

    pahapoika Subscribing Member

    Had to hit "like" because i use to be that guy :D
     
  21. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    Haha. For the the most part I keep to myself quietly, we do have one of those guys in the class that's just constantly raising his hand and asking what if questions. It just seemed to be a popular debate about open carry firearms because none of us were aware that it could be done legally
     
  22. Patr8726

    Patr8726 MassCops Member

    In my book, felon whacker = a bad guy open carrying. He's not the only crook who's done it before either.

    There's plenty of things that are perfectly legal for you to do that your future LE employer(s) may decide are a deal breaker. That's especially true when you consider that most agencies in MA require you to maintain an LTC as a condition of employment. The potential career impact doesn't seem to be registering with you. Good luck.
     
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  23. Patr8726

    Patr8726 MassCops Member

  24. Mass422

    Mass422 MassCops Member

    I understand completely and that's why I won't be openly carrying and why this thread is a firearms question and debate regarding open carry of firearms. I conceal carry for many reasons which I'm sure most of us have in common. I was simply looking from a different perspective on the subject. The legality of the topic was discussed in the academy and i was simply curious. I take my future LE career very seriously and it's something I strive for. I appreciate all your comments and input! All of you have been extremely helpful in seeing this from multiple different angles.
     
  25. Pvt. Cowboy

    Pvt. Cowboy Lemme take a selfie Staff Member

    My view on open carrying is this:

    Wearing a banana hammock in public is legal too, still doesn't make it a good idea.

    I don't frown upon those that do, I just feel the tactical advantage belongs to the concealed carriers.

    Back to the original point of this thread: don't bother people that are OC'ing that have done nothing wrong. There are plenty of shitbags and criminals out there to jam up as opposed to someone with a clean background. My 2 pennies worth of advice.
     
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