# volunteer for layoff



## roche (Nov 11, 2008)

There's talk in my dept that they will be laying off 9 people & I've been thinking about volunteering for one of the slots. I have 15 yrs on the job & I've been looking to get out of my dept for a year now. Myself & others tried to transfer & we all got denied. I feel like a prisoner here.

My only chance now of working somewhere else is by getting on the re-employment list. With my seniority I'd be at the top. I know I'd be on the re-employment list for 2 years & at this point I'm willing to take a chance to get out of here. Transfers would probably be out of the question as there are so many officers already on the layoff list you won't see any transfers for years.

I was wondering if I go on the layoff list & get a job offer do I carry my ORIGINAL seniority date on the first day at a new PD or do I have to put 3yrs in before I'd get my seniority time back? Also does that time count for the new PD if they have layoffs? Or would I be considered a new employee for dept issues, layoffs, etc?

I'm running out of options as I want out of here.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Current layoff list:
Police Officer Reemployment List

At fifteen years, you have a lot more time on than I and you've probably researched this a lot more than I have. Nonetheless, this I'd be careful about "volunteering". I'd be worried about how doing something voluntarily would affect your civil service seniority position. But on the list, the most senior guy has about 7 years, so you'd be out front by a long shot.

If you were denied a transfer even with an impending layoff situation (seems like any chief worth his salt would embrace such a move; not have to layoff anyone, more money as senior guys get paid more), I'd personally be extremely weary of that administration, and how they may interpret your "volunteering".

At my job there are two types of seniority we recognize: Civil service seniority and Job seniority. I'm not as up on all the CS rules as some of the other memebers here, but if you were to get picked up at my department for instance, while in the event of future layoffs you would retain whatever civil service time you carried over, you would go to the bottom of the barrel for things like shift bidding and hourly charge tie-breakers on detail/OT lists.

I would think most depts. would be the same; many CBU's want to protect the seniority of their current memebership as much as possible in the event THEY have layoffs. While I repect that it sucks someone gets laid off and has to break into a new dept., I also don't know if I'd want to be the focus of ire for guys I may potentially bump to another shift after they've been there a while. I see both sides of the coin; neither one is a rosy situation.


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## jbarrett (Mar 9, 2007)

I wish more cops with eligibility would RETIRE to save some of us from layoffs. Having a "complicated municipal history", as I was recently told by HRD, I am facing layoff (lateral transfer with no civil service seniority within my department). I'm not quite sure how I feel about the voluntary layoff idea. I would be thankful to have a job. Having worked at more than one agency, I understand that some departments may seem better than the one your on, but they're all the same. Only the faces change.


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## Trifecta (Mar 3, 2006)

Obie. Its 3 years within the new department before you regain your CS senority


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## irish937 (Sep 13, 2005)

I do not believe you can "volunteer" to take a layoff. It goes by senority. However, maybe there is something that allows you to do it. Did you ever check into the case law and civil service attorney for the resign/reinstatement issue? If that dipshit mayor would have approved your transfers, a few less would be on the block. Her ignorance and ego amaze me. Whoopie, she's taking a 5% cut. How about a 100%.


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## NBPD (Apr 29, 2005)

Thats nuts, I never thought I would see the day that someone wanted to take a volunteer layoff. I guess things must really be bad where you are. I do wish you all the best of luck... this list is getting bigger and bigger man, I just got a card from wakefield pd... I have never even heard of this town. Good luck man and stay safe.


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## roche (Nov 11, 2008)

the mayor wants us to take a 3% pay cut to Maybe save 7 jobs & then hope for a grant or stimulus money to come in. I called civil service & they told me its up to the mayor's discretion to allow me to take a layoff over a junior person. I can hardly wait to see what her answer will be.


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## irish937 (Sep 13, 2005)

Good luck with that!


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Trifecta said:


> Obie. Its 3 years within the new department before you regain your CS senority


That's what I thought but I wasn't 100% sure.

Even so, you may never regain seniority within that other department, you just may be able to jump ahead of their guys if layoffs hit after the three years.


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

roche said:


> There's talk in my dept that they will be laying off 9 people & I've been thinking about volunteering for one of the slots. I have 15 yrs on the job & I've been looking to get out of my dept for a year now. Myself & others tried to transfer & we all got denied. I feel like a prisoner here.
> 
> My only chance now of working somewhere else is by getting on the re-employment list. With my seniority I'd be at the top. I know I'd be on the re-employment list for 2 years & at this point I'm willing to take a chance to get out of here. Transfers would probably be out of the question as there are so many officers already on the layoff list you won't see any transfers for years.
> 
> ...


I personally can tell you that we have taken three laid off cops since 2004. One went back to his original Dept. and two stayed. They both carried over their civil service seniority but not the seniority as far as our department goes. I believe that here, if we lay off which they assure us will not happen, it would put you in a vulnerable spot. You must really hate the place. I will tell you however, the grass is not greener. Out of Sixty plus guys under me, at least 35 are transfers. Some (small number) wish they never came here and most love it. We are not w/o our own issues as is any job. I wish you luck, if you hate it, it's time to move on.


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## Guest (May 9, 2009)

When my father dropped me off at the MEPS center in Boston, the last thing he said to me was; 

"Don't volunteer for anything".


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

In light of recent academy layoffs I would continue to stay employed and count your blessings. It may be a _shitty _job, but it's still a job.


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## Deuce (Sep 27, 2003)

Delta784 said:


> When my father dropped me off at the MEPS center in Boston, the last thing he said to me was;
> 
> "Don't volunteer for anything".


Mine too, same circumstances and truer words never spoken. Dude do not volunteer anything, unless you have something already lined up. Like Sine said, it may be a shitty job but at least it's a job..


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## 7MPOC (Mar 16, 2004)

Also just so you understand, having 15 years seniority means zero on the layoff list. The layoff list is ranked by the date you were layed off not by years of service. Example: John Smith has 1 week on the job and got layed off January 1, 2009. You have fifteen years on the job and got layed off January 2, 2009. Little Johnny is obligated to be picked up before anyone underneath him. Right now there are 110 people on it, so you have atleast 110 people ahead of you. If you get layed off on July 1st then good luck because Im assuming thats what all the cities and towns are using for a their effective reduction in force date and you could end up with 500 people ahead of you.

Once you get to a new department and serve three years you get your originally civil service seniorty date back which is used for layoff and promotional exam purposes. Your department seniority will be from the day you started. Hope that helps.


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## SgtAndySipowicz (Mar 17, 2008)

jbarrett said:


> I wish more cops with eligibility would RETIRE to save some of us from layoffs.


I have 2 thoughts on those who hang around after being able to retire. 1) some may truly need the money and/or may have a complicated family situation where they have to stay etc. I don't fault them..... 2) if someone has 35 years on, has plenty of money, the house is paid off etc, but they just preach the old SENIORITY bullshit, I don't have a lot of respect for them. Cops are supposed to look out for each other. If you retiring saves a job or 2 it should be a no brainer as long as you are in good financial/family shape etc........


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## roche (Nov 11, 2008)

7MPOC said:


> Also just so you understand, having 15 years seniority means zero on the layoff list. The layoff list is ranked by the date you were layed off not by years of service. Example: John Smith has 1 week on the job and got layed off January 1, 2009. You have fifteen years on the job and got layed off January 2, 2009. Little Johnny is obligated to be picked up before anyone underneath him. Right now there are 110 people on it, so you have atleast 110 people ahead of you. If you get layed off on July 1st then good luck because Im assuming thats what all the cities and towns are using for a their effective reduction in force date and you could end up with 500 people ahead of you.
> 
> Once you get to a new department and serve three years you get your originally civil service seniorty date back which is used for layoff and promotional exam purposes. Your department seniority will be from the day you started. Hope that helps.


I was told by civil service & also Chap 31 sec40 Reemployment list states that the order of getting on the layoff list goes by your original seniority, which mine is 1994 (15 yrs) which would put me #1 on the list as the top guy now has 7 years.

I think my odds would be pretty good at getting a job somewhere statewide as you stay on the reemployment list for 2 years. If worse came to worse I have 10 years with my original PD for reinstatement rights EVEN if I accept a job in another dept they still have to see if I'm interested in going back there if there's any openings. Again it would go by seniority & the top guy getting laid off from my place has about 7 yrs on.
I'm not sure how much unemployment pays (I heard 50%) & you can collect for 59 weeks as they extended it.


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## Irishpride (May 5, 2002)

7MPOC said:


> Also just so you understand, having 15 years seniority means zero on the layoff list. The layoff list is ranked by the date you were layed off not by years of service.


This is not correct; the layoff list goes by your CS seniority date. A lot of the FRPD guys were sr. to the laid off NPBD guys who where laid off 1st, but the list has the FR guys at the top due to their CS seniority. Also bear in mind the layoff list runs off the same 2x+1 rule that the open and competitive list does, so being #1 means you #2, and #3 will be interviewed and there is a lot of discretion for the appointing authority. The lay off list sounds great on paper but in actuality most of the departments that are hiring are very small and they are only hiring one at a time so it's not exactly a guaranteed job. Just something to think about.


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## 7MPOC (Mar 16, 2004)

Irishpride said:


> This is not correct; the layoff list goes by your CS seniority date. A lot of the FRPD guys were sr. to the laid off NPBD guys who where laid off 1st, but the list has the FR guys at the top due to their CS seniority. Also bear in mind the layoff list runs off the same 2x+1 rule that the open and competitive list does, so being #1 means you #2, and #3 will be interviewed and there is a lot of discretion for the appointing authority. The lay off list sounds great on paper but in actuality most of the departments that are hiring are very small and they are only hiring one at a time so it's not exactly a guaranteed job. Just something to think about.


Ok, if thats the case then thats different and you probably would be closer to the top of the list. It was my understanding that a voluntary separation of service was different than being layed off due to lack of funds and you would be ranked by the date you were layed off, my mistake then.

As Irwin R Fletcher once said, "It takes a big man to admit when he is wrong... I am not a big man"


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

NBPD said:


> Thats nuts, I never thought I would see the day that someone wanted to take a volunteer layoff.


Collect unemployment for the summer, get caught up on the things to do, spend time with family, finish school etc. while collecting unemployment might not be so bad.

How much would you be able to collect on unemployment and for how long?


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## Deuce (Sep 27, 2003)

firefighter39 said:


> Collect unemployment for the summer, get caught up on the things to do, spend time with family, finish school etc. while collecting unemployment might not be so bad.
> 
> How much would you be able to collect on unemployment and for how long?


And there ya go; reinforcing why you're a firefighter and not a police officer....


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

Deuce said:


> And there ya go; reinforcing why you're a firefighter and not a police officer....


Thanks!


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## OfficerBeyotch (Oct 16, 2007)

The maximum benefit rate is $628 a week!!!

How Your Benefits are Determined - Labor and Workforce Development


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

7MPOC said:


> The layoff list is ranked by the date you were layed off not by years of service.


That's gotta be incorrect. Just look at the list.

http://www.mass.gov/?pageID=hrdterminal&L=4&L0=Home&L1=Civil+Service&L2=Guides+%26+Publications&L3=Police+Information+Civil+Service&sid=Ehrd&b=terminalcontent&f=cs_rif_poremplist&csid=Ehrd


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## csauce777 (Jan 10, 2005)

firefighter39 said:


> get caught up on the things to do, spend time with family, finish school etc. while collecting


Doesnt this describe the major daily duties of firefighters?


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

csauce777 said:


> Doesnt this describe the major daily duties of firefighters?


The only problem with a layoff is that I don't have enough room in my garage at home to work on the car, no place to get rid of the oil etc.. would have to start buying my own washing/waxing supplies, probably would not get a good night sleep either at home, wife, kids, pets etc..


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

csauce777 said:


> Doesnt this describe the major daily duties of firefighters?


You forgot cookouts and naptime...

Just kidding with ya, FF39, but you are indeed a good sport.


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## csauce777 (Jan 10, 2005)

OfficerObie59 said:


> You forgot cookouts and naptime...
> 
> Just kidding with ya, FF39, but you are indeed a good sport.


Oh...and basketball...lots of hoop.


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## Johnny Law (Aug 8, 2008)

I thought they just went to the gym and pumped each other.


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## Irishpride (May 5, 2002)

OfficerBeyotch said:


> The maximum benefit rate is $628 a week!!!


Plus you get an extra $25 a week per child you have living in your household. You pay 35% of your health insurance for 9 months under COBRA, after 9 months you pay 100%. You are allowed to make 1/3 of your benefit rate (before dependant credit) before it reduces your unemployment pay. Basically it works out to where you can make $215 a week and it will not affect unemployment.


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## redtargetarea (May 7, 2004)

Do not know if this helps it is from 2003.

It is the first link on the below page.
http://www.mass.gov/portal/search?q=civil+service+layoff+list&entqr=3&sid=massgov2&sort=date%3AD%3AL%3Ad1&output=xml_no_dtd&ie=UTF-8&client=mgov&ud=1&pageID=mg2searchlanding&oe=UTF-8&proxystylesheet=mgov&site=default_collection


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

Johnny Law said:


> I thought they just went to the gym and pumped each other.


That just show how littel you know, we pump after the gym in the bunk room8-O


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## roche (Nov 11, 2008)

Does anyone know if there is a certain time frame for regaining my dept seniority back if I was on a layoff list & nothing became available so I ended up going back (reinstated) to my original PD?
Does it depend on each individual dept? Or is it something different? I thought I saw something about being gone longer than 6 months & having to double your time.


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## midwatch (Jan 5, 2007)

Under normal circumstances, I would wager that your department seniority wouldn't be affected by a layoff. Basically its a "last fired, first hired" system where you would be brought back in the same spot that you left. That being said, I don't know how you would be affected with your "volunteering for a layoff" plan, which BTW I think is crazy-ass insane.


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## irish937 (Sep 13, 2005)

If you are a layoff and are reinstated to your original position, it will be the same place you left at, including all senority. That said, I don't know if you volunteering does anything to that. If you are separated from service (leave of absence,resignation, etc.), it's three years or twice the time you were separated, whichever is longer.


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## PatrolDB (Jul 23, 2008)

You DON'T want to be laid off...


Just take it from the horse's mouth!


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## Irishpride (May 5, 2002)

PatrolDB said:


> You DON'T want to be laid off...
> 
> Just take it from the horse's mouth!


I'll 2nd that


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

irish937 said:


> If you are a layoff and are reinstated to your original position, it will be the same place you left at, including all senority.


I get Civil Service seniority (though does the 3 years that applies to transfers also apply to layoffs?), though I don't see how civil service can force a bargaining unit in a new department to elevate a layoff's rehire seniority to jump over other guys.

For example, you get laid of from Deptartment X. Department Y wants two new hires, and takes the Dept X layoff. How can civil service force the layed-off officer to acrew all seniority he would have had in regards to shift bidding and details?

In my dept., if you leave the bargaining unit (patrolman's union) and come back (for example, you transfer in from another dept or you take a CS Sergeants appointment and voluntarily resign from it later), you go to the bottom of the barrel right behind the last guy out of the academy. I just don't see how Civil Service can force internal departmental seniority.


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## midwatch (Jan 5, 2007)

OfficerObie59 said:


> I get Civil Service seniority (though does the 3 years that applies to transfers also apply to layoffs?), though I don't see how civil service can force a bargaining unit in a new department to elevate a layoff's rehire seniority to jump over other guys.
> 
> For example, you get laid of from Deptartment X. Department Y wants two new hires, and takes the Dept X layoff. How can civil service force the layed-off officer to acrew all seniority he would have had in regards to shift bidding and details?
> 
> In my dept., if you leave the bargaining unit (patrolman's union) and come back (for example, you transfer in from another dept or you take a CS Sergeants appointment and voluntarily resign from it later), you go to the bottom of the barrel right behind the last guy out of the academy. I just don't see how Civil Service can force internal departmental seniority.


Obie I think you're confusing two separate issues. If a layoff is hired by a _new_ department, they they do not have any departmental senoirity. However if said layoff is hired back to his _original_ department, then he is returned to his original position, including departmental seniority.


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## irish937 (Sep 13, 2005)

That's what I meant. Departmental senority is handled by your collective bargaining agreement. I did mean the same department. Obie, your CBA says that if someone takes a promotion and then demotes himself, he goes back to the bottom? That seem kind of shitty to me if say someone has family issues and needs to go back to a shift he can bid to take care of problems.


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## NBPD (Apr 29, 2005)

just checked the list of laid off officers and noticed that the top guy on the job has 15 years on.. just wondering if it is you buddy? Take care and if you get a chance shoot me a pm.


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