# Dash Cam Police Shooting



## BrickCop (Dec 23, 2004)

Apologies if this has already been posted. Cop shot in face with shotgun (survived but reportedly lost his right eye). Suspect killed at scene. That victim officer displayed a lot more patience with the suspect than I would have .


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

That's absurd. I would never _talk_ to man pointing a gun at me; he would be receiving a lead injection for his trouble.


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

Ive seen too many videos where the cop ends up getting killed. Sorry, you point a gun like you intend to use it you have earned your bullets. Should have been dropped the minute he took his firing hand off the shotgun. You dont want to second guess and Monday morning quarterback, but you spend too much time shouting commands and you can get shot in the face for your efforts. 
*If you are not prepared to take a human life, then you are in the wrong line of work.*

If you need a reminder, see below. The officer above could have just as easily ended up like this
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yz_KM1QCuDo"]YouTube - - GRAPHIC - Deputy Kyle Dinkheller[/nomedia]


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## harper (Apr 3, 2003)

+1 Killjoy. Absurd... glad to hear he is recovering.


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## 47turksinajar (Oct 24, 2010)

Look at the way the suspect was moving... some type of training. Nonetheless I agree with killjoy, you point at me I'm shooting!


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

The funny thing is I was reading an old Law Officer article today about verbal warnings prior to using deadly force...


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## 47turksinajar (Oct 24, 2010)

Big.G said:


> The funny thing is I was reading an old Law Officer article today about verbal warnings prior to using deadly force...


YEA! what did it say... it was useless?


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

47turksinajar said:


> YEA! what did it say... it was useless?


No. It can have fatal consequences.... I didn't need someone else to tell me that.


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## Eagle13 (Jun 12, 2008)

But not only was did he have a gun, he was aggressively moving towards the officer, seeming to be trying to get a good shot on him. Sad, but good that it did not turn out worse for the officer.


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

Hate to MMQB, but it looks like the guy was obviously baiting the first officer into a suicide-by-cop shoot. Without knowing anything about this officer perhaps his experience told him not to and he didn't want any part of it until it was too late. If that's the case it's time to back the hell up, be a lover of cover, and wait until the cavalry arrives.

Most young guns are saying "lead milkshake, coming up!" I surmise that most posters here have never been in a two-way shooting range. Being faced with that prospect is a tough call unless you were there. A lot has is going through your mind when facing an EDP with a rifle, one of which is a lifetime of training and experience telling you NOT to shoot. Fear of a bad shoot outweighs his safety such as getting grilled by litigation, admin and the public not supporting you, depression sets in, loss of a job, etc...


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## LGriffin (Apr 2, 2009)

The shooter was known to the Officer. You can hear the Officer call him Seth during one of his pleas so I can only surmise that he was a frequent flier who had been talked down from previous acts of stupidity and this Officer thought he could do it again.


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## BrickCop (Dec 23, 2004)

LGriffin said:


> The shooter was known to the Officer. You can hear the Officer call him Seth during one of his pleas so I can only surmise that he was a frequent flier who had been talked down from previous acts of stupidity and this Officer thought he could do it again.


This is very useful info if true and may explain his hesitation. Most cops deal with the same characters in their sector to the point where complacency may set in, particularly if there have been no past violent encounters.

IIRC years ago two BPD Gang Unit Officers routinely dealt with local gang banger Hector Morales with no problems. One day they pulled up to Morales and a group hanging in their usual spot near Eggleston Square. One of the cops casually said "Hey, what's up Hector" and he replied "I'll show you what's up motherf*uckers" and produced a shotgun (don't remember if it was pistol grip or sawed off) and started to shooting at both officers. I believe both officers suffered injuries, Morales was killed by their return gunfire.


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## Guest (Apr 10, 2011)

BrickCop said:


> IIRC years ago two BPD Gang Unit Officers routinely dealt with local gang banger Hector Morales with no problems. One day they pulled up to Morales and a group hanging in their usual spot near Eggleston Square. One of the cops casually said "Hey, what's up Hector" and he replied "I'll show you what's up motherf*uckers" and produced a shotgun (don't remember if it was pistol grip or sawed off) and started to shooting at both officers. I believe both officers suffered injuries, Morales was killed by their return gunfire.


Yes indeed, he was part of the "X-Men" gang....I and K.R. nearly got into a gun battle with a couple of their members, but we had the foresight to exit the cruiser with revolvers (remember those days?) drawn, so we got the drop on them....2 guns and a shitload of crack seized.

I have to agree with SinePari.....too many variables to start second-guessing, especially if the suspect was known to the officer. It's easy to say "I'd have blown him away" until you think about the shitstorm of repurcussions waiting in the wings. I want to be there for my kids as much as anyone, but I also want to be able to provide for them by keeping my job and staying out of federal prison.


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## lofu (Feb 25, 2006)

One thing I noticed while watching was the Sunbeam store behind the suspect. We all have been drilled time and time again to know your backdrop and what is behind what you are shooting at. Its easy to say "I would have dropped him," "he would have been filled with lead," etc. How many who are second guessing can say they are 100% sure they could make that approx. 20 yard shot at a guy utilizing cover, with a pistol, without fear of a riccochet or a miss going into that store and hitting someone else? Yes it looked like the cop was more patient than he should have been but thats easy to say from the comfort of my own La Z Boy. 

Watch the video, learn from it, and mentally prepare for what you would do but please don't second guess this brother officer who apparently suffered a devastating injury. I hope he is able to recover mentally and physically from this.


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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

perhaps it's the big gun culture down south that gives these officers so much restraint when approaching an armed suspect ?


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## Tango (Nov 28, 2004)

Along the lines of what Lofu said, the officer can be heard on the radio at the start to get the people out of the store/away from the windows. My guess is that he didnt have a clear background to shoot at. This is the only reason I can see as to why he shouldn't have shot him from the get go.


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

lofu said:


> How many who are second guessing can say they are 100% sure they could make that approx. 20 yard shot at a guy utilizing cover, with a pistol, without fear of a riccochet or a miss going into that store and hitting someone else?


Sounds like a good arguement for a patrol rifle, and a policy that doesn't keep it in the trunk.


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## Guest (Apr 11, 2011)

Hush said:


> Sounds like a good arguement for a patrol rifle, and a policy that doesn't keep it in the trunk.


At 20 yards, I would prefer my 12-gauge loaded with slugs, which sits above the prisoner cage and is instantly accessible.

Then again, for 50 yards and closer, I'd take a 12-gauge with slugs over just about anything other than a flamethrower.


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## 47turksinajar (Oct 24, 2010)

Delta784 said:


> At 20 yards, I would prefer my 12-gauge loaded with slugs, which sits above the prisoner cage and is instantly accessible.
> 
> Then again, for 50 yards and closer, I'd take a 12-gauge with slugs over just about anything other than a *flamethrower*.


Flamethrower... If only we could actually use this!


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

SinePari said:


> ...he didn't want any part of it until it was too late. If that's the case it's time to back the hell up, be a lover of cover, and wait until the cavalry arrives.


Exactly.



pahapoika said:


> perhaps it's the big gun culture down south that gives these officers so much restraint when approaching an armed suspect ?


Is pointing guns at each other part of this gun culture? I'm not from the south, so I wouldn't know this.



Hush said:


> Sounds like a good arguement for a patrol rifle, and a policy that doesn't keep it in the trunk.


Patrol rifles were deployed as you can see in the video.


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

I didn't see if the original officer had a rifle or not, but I do know if you do have one you should be able to access and make it ready while en route to a call.


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## lofu (Feb 25, 2006)

What are these "patrol rifles" you all speak of? We have one shotgun in every patrol sector and 3 or 4 cars, so if you are one of the 2 or 3 other guys in that sector and get there first you are going to battle with your sidearm.


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## jettsixx (Dec 10, 2005)

This video does make me glad of a few things. First and foremost, I am glad that the officer will be able to be with his family again. I am glad that the officer had a dash cam so the uneducated public cant say the cop was just out to get this guy. I am glad that the shit bag didnt get to ever leave the scene. 

I also think the officer was concerned with the sunbeam store behind the shit head. If the officer did hesitate more than any of you or I would have then the only people we have to blame for that is society and the anti cop hating politicians we have. When we have border patrol agents that get sent to prison for shooting an armed drug dealer, how do we expect our officers on the street to make split second, (life altering), decisions? I will say I will do what ever I have to do to be able to go home at the end of my shift. I hope that I wouldnt second guess myself in that situation however you can not know until you are there. I hope that none of us have to be in that situation. I would say learn from these videos and be as safe as you can out there. It is getting worse.


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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

_*Is pointing guns at each other part of this gun culture? I'm not from the south, so I wouldn't know this*_.

just surmising here, but firearms are more prevalent down south and don't carry the negative connotation like they do here in Mass.

not sure what type of training everybody gets here, but i'm guessing it's all same.

_fire on the threat command, GUN !_

_place two shots center mass, scan and cover._

it's very doubtful this guy would have gotten the opportunity to dance around with a gun here.


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

Some background and more story here:
Conroe officer who lost eye in shooting still has his job (w/videos) | Houston & Texas News | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
In the days since Conroe Police Sgt. James Kelemen Sr. was blasted in the face by a shotgun-wielding man, resulting in injuries that cost him his right eye, circumstances have improved far beyond his expectations.
Moments after being sprayed by the pellets Saturday, he doubted his survival. In the ambulance, he kept saying his career was over. By the time he got settled at the hospital, he figured he and his wife would be there for months.
A surgeon removed Kelemen's eye on Monday. He was released from the hospital on Tuesday, visited the Conroe Police Department on Wednesday and reluctantly recounted his encounter with the gunman and talked about his recovery Thursday afternoon.
"I feel great. I'm glad I'm here, but I didn't want a big frenzy over the policeman with one eye," said Kelemen, 34. "I never lost consciousness. I remember talking to him. I remember hearing the shot. I remember feeling the percussion. I remember feeling something on my face. I knew I was hit. When I went to the ground, I could see all the blood coming from my head and it was a lot."
A gimme cap and mango-hued shirt covered his minor injuries and a sturdy plate shielded the gauze over his right eye socket. The pellets also left scattered wounds across Kelemen's forehead, scalp and right shoulder.
He's scheduled to have the stitches removed from his right eyelid next week, and should have a prosthetic eye in place this spring. And, he still has a job with the Conroe police, the chief's confidence and a community's support.
All of this for a guy who lay on the ground last weekend, drenched in his own blood, having what he expected to be his last conversation with his wife.
About 4 p.m. Saturday, dispatchers received a report of an armed man threatening an employee at a bakery in the 400 block of North Loop 336 East. The man was later identified as James Richard Hill, 54. This was Kelemen's first Saturday working the 2 p.m. to 2 a.m. shift after swapping with a newly promoted patrol sergeant.
As the first officer on the scene, Kelemen spent a couple of minutes pleading with Hill to drop his weapon, according to video footage from his patrol car's dashboard camera.
"After being there for a couple of seconds, I knew it wasn't going to end well. The guy was just obviously crazy. You hear about 'suicide by cop' all the time, but it didn't take long to figure out that that was definitely in his plan," Kelemen recalled. "I was scared to death."....(cont. in link)

And a great analysis by Pat Rogers on Lightfighter.net:
Based on his comments, i'll stand by my statements.

We do not know that there were any people behind the class any more than we know there weren't.

Were his tactics bad? Could be. But we don't know.

However, the perp was pointing the damn shotgun at him.
His options were to dump the perp.
Or be dumped.

He chose the latter,

*That he was not killed had nothing to do with his tactics, ability (or lack thereof) or anything else that he did/ not do.
He lost the initiative when he decided to talk with a man who was pointing a gun at him.

His attitude was confirmed when he told his wife that he wan't going to make it.

*While being sure of your target/ what is behind it is indeed a safety rule, my safety comes first.
And certainly the other cops had no problem with it after the Sgt was shot.

A lot can be said that the perp was doing a lot of movement but i would be hard pressed knowing when/ when not a downrange hazard is presented.

No one is hanging this guy out to dry. No one except himself, and from his own comments.

From my perspective, the real tragedy is what happens afterwards- which would have been magnified tenfold if the boss had been killed.

And not just to the his family- but to other cops.
And this would occur when he would have been painted as a *hero* for sacrificing his life and so forth

Administrators would make this a shining example etc, and the *lessons learned* would once more be that because a cop *survived* he did something right, and once more luck would be transmorgified into a TTP.

Brian- you are not stirring up shit- anymore than anyone else is here.

You are stimulating discussion, which is necessary in these incidents, instead of the blanket "He was a hero", "Sacrificing his life..."

Not every cop killed in the line of duty is a hero- or maybe even a good guy.
The Bureau reached that conclusion several years ago - that many killed were not exactly hard chargers.

Lastly- your 85% number may be way generous.
Unfortunately...

I always found it hard to believe that society will take people and give them the power to deprive another of not only liberty, but also life- with minimal training, and miniscule pay.

But those in this job need to be able to see things for what they are, instead of automatic platitude.

Just sayin'...

_This message has been edited. Last edited by: Pat _Rogers, 08 April 2011 22:53 _

S/F

Pat sends
www.eagtactical.com


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## csauce777 (Jan 10, 2005)

Big.G said:


> Patrol rifles were deployed as you can see in the video.


Yes, but for argument sake, were they utilized effectively?

Even if the rifle is in the trunk, when you get a call that indicates (as it did here) that weapons are involved, why not stop a block or two away, make your weapon hot, and put it up front? Then when you arrive, and this asshat is pointing his shotgun at you, you're at least evenly matched, or better. Even with the windows in the background, there were several times that a well placed patrol rifle shot would have likely dropped that guy with minimal risk. At that distance, with an M4, I dont see missing that guy.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

Anyone remember the thread in the "Firepower" section that asks how many times you qualify per year? 

This is a great example as to why we all should be shooting / practicing with all of our firearms as often as possible. Once or twice a year is not gonna cut it for any situation but especially for a situation like this. If the department won't help facilitate our training then it 's up to us to do it on our own. 

The question comes down to: Do you feel comfortable in your shooting skills to be able to take that shot when your life or the life of your partners are in jeapordy, especially in situations like the one in this incident. 

There are definite learning points in this video.


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## Deuce (Sep 27, 2003)

Having BTDT, it's not hyperbole when I tell you I'd have dropped the fucker. Maybe, maybe, I would have given 1 verbal command, but it probably would have gone out with my first round.. Getting shot at, is, infuriating. I'm going home, that's it. I don't give a fuck about any shithead out there, be they EDPs, junkies or someone I'm familiar with. I'm not nice.. I'm not one of those "approachable" CP guys.. But I'm going home in one piece... Sacrifice my life? No damn way.. IMO this guy fucked up and is paying the price for it...


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

After reading the above interview, and hearing the Sgt's side of the story, I think the issue was not whether he could have made the shot, what was in the background, or the availability of a rifle. That officer was not prepared to shoot somebody, and that bad guy deserved to be shot. He gave up his survival, and placed his life in the hands of the bad guy, and he is LUCKY to be alive. The fact that the bad guy chose birdshot and hesitated so long to shoot may suggest suicide by cop. So fucking what, if thats what someone wants are you going to choose their life over yours? It also sounds like because he was the ranking officer on scene, the other officers hesitated to fire too because the Sgt was busy shouting commands. Lucky he didn't get one of them killed. He will be lauded as a hero for getting shot in the face, but he should find a new line of work.


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

I cannot comprehend how anyone on this job would allow anyone to charge towards you with a gun pointed at you and not shoot them. It is completely asinine and the thought of it makes me want to puke. You can come up with all kinds of excuses but the fact of the matter is this warranted deadly force on the use of force model. If our use of force model isn't identical to what the rest of the country uses, its pretty damn close. Couple that with what you've been told time and again that your life is the most important life on the scene. What the fuck good are you if you are dead? Everything else is bullshit. EDP person....who gives a fuck? The son of a bitch is pointing a gun at you? Do you really value your life to be that worthless?

Gotta love how some people think that merely pointing a gun at another person will suddenly make them compliant. Remember that video that was posted not that long ago (Christmastime?) where an officer was at a pharmacy to get footage from the security cameras for a robbery that happened a few hours earlier only to walk in on another robbery and pulls out his gun?

As far as this happening in the south, people in the background, etc. This wasn't a traffic stop where the guy is ccw or has a rifle in the backseat (the gun(s) not being the reason for the interaction). The police were called because of an argument and the guy had a gun. Obviously these people, that are accustomed to guns, believed there is an issue here. Why the fuck would anyone stick around when it is pretty clear that the shit will be hitting the fan and you already know that guns are involved. If you haven't shot the guy yourself already then you're clearly unarmed. Can't figure out why you haven't gotten the fuck out of there yet. Pick up some popcorn and sit and watch the show? I guess you'll find out the hard way this is real life and not a movie theater.....

I'm sure the Sgt. is kicking his own as more than we ever could over this incident. He, afterall, is the one that has to live with the consequences. Not being mentally prepared to shoot someone when you need to is a serious issue. Now I haven't read any of Lt. Col. Dave Grossman's books or listened to the videos on youtube for The Bullet Proof Mind. I did watch this video a couple years ago when it was first posted on P1: http://www.policeone.com/policeonet...-grossman-on-school-violence-causes-response/

Once you get past the stuff related specifically to schools, there is some really good points he makes. My favorite one is "There are so many things you can be doing on your own time that reinforce survival skills. Hunting, I am convinced that hunting is the single most effective thing you can do to mentally and physically prepare yourself for combat, the act of killing." I practically live to hunt, go figure...


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

Big.G said:


> As far as this happening in the south, people in the background, etc. This wasn't a traffic stop where the guy is ccw or has a rifle in the backseat (the gun(s) not being the reason for the interaction). The police were called because of an argument and the guy had a gun.


Exactly, and that Sgt still rolled up all la-dee-da in condition white.


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## csauce777 (Jan 10, 2005)

Big.G said:


> You can come up with all kinds of excuses but the fact of the matter is this warranted deadly force on the use of force model.


Warranted is right but I'd go even further to say "text book" example of deadly force application scenarios. This fuckstick is is advancing and aiming a shotgun at a uniformed officer in a marked police cruiser. No brainer - smoke em'.


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

csauce777 said:


> Warranted is right but I'd go even further to say "text book" example of deadly force application scenarios. This fuckstick is is advancing and aiming a shotgun at a uniformed officer in a marked police cruiser. No brainer - smoke em'.


Exactly. If this Sgt was trying to save this guys life or prevent a suicide by cop, not only did he fail, he lost an eye for it.
If he was afraid he would not be able to make a 20 yard shot....spend some more time at the range, or get a long gun. He is only alive by luck, there were no heroics involved and the lesson learned should reflect that. Unfortunately he will be called a hero, and the teaching moment will be lost. Its not fair to lay all the blame on him; administration policies and media pressure can have deadly effects. This was a shoot situation, and he did not shoot. The reason he chose not to shoot may have been important to him, but does not matter in the overall picture. He is lucky get to go home, I hope he can overcome the loss of his eye and make the best of it.


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