# O'Toole Calls For More Gun Training For Irish Cops



## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

Former Boston Police Commissioner, now an official with the Garda Siochana, the 12-thousand member Irish National Police force, says it's important that more gardai become skilled with firearms. 
Her comments come as the opening of new training facilities has re-opened a debate about officers carrying guns. This is true even in light of recent high-profile shootings in that country.
Gardai have acquired two new firearms-training ranges, which will become operational next month.
The indoor four-lane "live fire" ranges will be based at the garda college in Templemore and at garda headquarters in the Phoenix Park, in Dublin.
The prefabricated ranges are newly designed products and will allow live shooting for up to four people.
The provision of the ranges is expected to solve many of the training problems that have arisen since a former facility at headquarters was shut down on health and safety grounds.
New figures show that a total of 3,377 members of the force are competent in the use of firearms and are authorised card-holders.
A garda working-group on firearms training recommended that not more than 10pc of the uniformed divisional strength, in addition to the detective branch, should be authorised and trained in firearms.
Earlier this week, Commissioner Fachtna Murphy assured the annual conference of the Association of Garda Sergeants and Inspectors that he had no plans to turn the Garda Siochana into an armed force.
He was responding to concerns voiced by the association over proposals to allow uniformed members on patrol change into special clothing and arm themselves with weapons locked in the boot of their cars, in order to form regional response units.
The mid-ranking gardai said they did not want marked patrol cars to be used to store guns or uniformed members to become targets for armed criminals because of this proposed dual role.
Mr Murphy said he was satisfied that any problems that arose could be sorted out in a pilot in the southern region.
The head of the garda inspectorate, Kathleen O'Toole, has called for a substantial increase the number of members trained in firearms.
She said she was not advocating that the gardai should become an armed force, but warned it was vital that more gardai were skilled in gun use.


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## Duff112 (Apr 14, 2006)

I would assume that when they refer to "Authorized card holders" that these officers carry on duty... but I could be wrong. Hopefully they're issued semi-auto's in a decent calibre and not 38.'s that were bought back from the NYPD in the 70's.


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## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

Each qualified officer carries a special card, know as a "blue card" which means he is certified to carry. I have ridden with detectives and they were carrying snub wheel guns as little as three years ago. Now that was just those I rode with. Some, I'm told, have semi-autos. The guys the boss teamed me up with were two younger detectives and I suspect the better equipment gets passed out by senority.
The range at Templemore, their academy, was closed as lead contamination was a major problem. It was really archaic. I never saw the Dublin H.Q. range as I spent time in a precinct there. 
Unlike the U.S. the police can call upon the military for direct back up. I observed two operations, the transfer of high-level witness to testify against a major gang leader, and the transfer or a large amount of money during IRA bank robbery season, where Irish army commandos with full weaponry and their own vehicles, joined with Gardai to carry out the task. One would never think that what is perceived as a pastoral country like Ireland would need such security but then it was not too long ago when police detectives on a robbery stakeout were approached in their car and blown away by thugs there. A six year old girl was shot in Limerick last week in what appears to be a rekindling of tribal gangster activity. During the last such activity in that city entire parts of the community were almost impassable for routine police patrols and the ERT team (SWAT) had to become involved. Arrests and court cases saw retributions against even a few Gardai. If you really want to do some interesting reading I suggest you google and pick up a few books about the Irish mob in recent years. Some members fled to Spain and Portugal as a result of the crackdown and payments to corrupt officials in those countries have kept them out of reach of Irish justice.


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

> One would never think that what is perceived as a pastoral country like Ireland would need such security but then it was not too long ago when police detectives on a robbery stakeout were approached in their car and blown away by thugs there. A six year old girl was shot in Limerick last week in what appears to be a rekindling of tribal gangster activity. During the last such activity in that city entire parts of the community were almost impassable for routine police patrols and the ERT team (SWAT) had to become involved. Arrests and court cases saw retributions against even a few Gardai.


So why exactly does the Garda not want every member to be armed? I still can' get my mind around the concept of _unarmed_ police officers. Aren't the police called when the situation is out of control; what does an officer do when he shows up and is completely incapable of even defending his own life? "Sorry, mates, got to get to a phone and call the Army". I certainly don't buy the concept that "if criminals don't believe I'm a threat, they won't harm me." I want criminals believing I'm a threat, in fact, I would happy if they were sh*tting their pants when I show up.


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## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

Believe it or not I spoke with new recruits at the academy and some seriously wanted to know why American police patrol officers were armed. Many people around the world have no concept of how things are in other countries. While most Irish are highly educated and traveled they have not experienced the violence present in parts of our nation and like some constables in Vermont, see no need to carry firearms in their day-to-day work. Most violent crime in Ireland, as in the U.K., involves knives or other cutting weapons. When guns come into play they call in special branch, detectives, ERT, and as said before, the military. It is a fact that some thugs have actually gone into smaller towns, entered the Garda station, held the constable at gunpoint and proceeded to rob the bank. In one incident an unarmed Garda actually used his portable radio pretending it was a gun to disarm an armed thug.
I believe once the Gardai are on the job awhile they become more and more convinced of the need for firearms but in the early part of their careers they, like most citizens in Ireland do not understand the changes that are taking place. Until the majority of citizens understand the reality of crime the will not fully arm their officers.


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

> Most violent crime in Ireland, as in the U.K., involves knives or other cutting weapons.


Isn't a knife a deadly threat? Doesn't that _require _deadly force to respond to? In American terms you do not respond to a knife with open hand techniques, pepper spray or batons, to do so would be foolhardy.



> While most Irish are highly educated and traveled they have not experienced the violence present in parts of our nation


I find that to be amusing, considering Ireland's very violent past. I think Ireland's police are going find out that they are becoming dangerously complacent and under-armed, and are going to have to rethink their "community policing" model.


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## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

Suggest you read non-fiction book on Irish Crime by Paul Williams for starters. It shows the ruthlessness of criminal gangs in Ireland and the way the people and courts are so slow to respond to the situation. We have difficulty understanding because we have grown up in a different society and have been taught different ways to respond to situations. The term "foreign" comes to my mind. In this case we are the "foreigners" and fail to grasp the mindset of another society. 
The Irish police are taught to respond to knives with the very techniques you indicated above we are not taught to.
I have pulled up one of hundreds of story featuring Garda encounters with knife wielding suspects. They usually end in the same way. Suspect overpowered and in court. If it were here the suspect would be dead. Irish and other societies would not accept that.

A MAN has been charged with assaulting two gardai who tried to break up a domestic row.
Both gardai suffered stab wounds in the assault. 
Paul Randle (39), of Dungimmon, Mountnugent, Cavan, appeared before a special sitting of Cavan district court on Saturday night after two male gardai were stabbed. 
Responding to a call at around 8pm on Friday night, the two gardai went to the house in Mountnugent to break up a domestic fight. 
However, they were both stabbed shortly after arriving at the house. One suffered wounds to his leg and the other was struck in the abdomen. 
Mr Randle was arrested and appeared in court on Saturday night. He was charged with assault and remanded in custody. 
He is due before Cootehill district court tomorrow.
IRISH TIMES

And on the same day:

Phillip Furlong of Cromwellsfort Rd, Dublin was charged with carrying a firearm with criminal intent. He is due to appear at Dublin District Court on December 19.


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## Duff112 (Apr 14, 2006)

I agree wholeheartedly with Killjoy. Firearms are becoming more prevalent everywhere, especially in those countries which ban them. Heck if I was a career criminal I'd pay thru the nose for some blackmarketer to get me one..

The only direction I see the Republic of Ireland going is to all of their uniformed officers and detectives being armed...the problem is I foresee alot of dead Garda
to get up to that point..


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## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

And just today comes this story in the news from south of Dublin:

A CITY-WIDE manhunt is today underway after a businessman had a gun pointed to his head in broad daylight before being ordered to hand over all his possessions.
Gardai have confirmed that the well-known Bray businessman was approached by two hooded men as he left the County Wicklow Lawn Tennis Club.
After leaving the facility on Vevay Road the businessman is understood to have stepped into his SUV, which was parked nearby. But on entering the vehicle, two balaclava-wearing men -- one of whom was armed with a loaded handgun -- approached the vehicle.
TERRIFIED
In broad daylight, one of the pair pushed the handgun up against their terrified victim's head. After ordering the businessman to hand over all cash and belongings he had on his possession, the two suspects escaped the scene on foot.
Gardai have declined to name the man at the centre of the armed robbery, and have refused to comment on the amount of cash and valuables stolen during the armed assault last Thursday.
The handgun used in the attack, which was loaded, was recovered later nearby.
In a statement, a spokesperson for gardai explained that in the immediate aftermath of the robbery, the shaken businessman entered the local station to report his terrifying daylight ordeal.
The attackers are described as being in their mid-twenties, with both being approximately 5ft 10ins tall and of medium build.

And from yesterday's paper:

Gardai have renewed their appeal for information after an armed robbery at Dunnes Stores in Rathmines, Dublin last night. 
At around half past eight two masked men entered the shop and threatened staff with what appeared to be a hand-gun and a shot-gun.
Staff were locked up as the gunmen made their getaway with a substantial amount of cash in a dark coloured Ford Galaxy.

Here is the ROLL OF HONOR for Gardai killed in the line of duty:

http://www.esatclear.ie/~garda/honour.html


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## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

With regards to a comment I made earlier I quote in part from an article almost a month ago in the IRISH INDEPENDENT concerning that 8 year tribal war on-going in Limerick.

Gardai have seized weapons on a regular basis including Desert Eagle handguns, AK-47 assault rifles, rocket launchers and grenades.Criminal cases have been dropped amid fears of witness intimidation and gang members have been sent to New York, Florida and eastern Europe on gun training courses. Such is the fear of further attacks; both sides have purchased custom-fitted armour plated vehicles with reinforced glass over an inch thick. Bullet-proof vests are part of the daily dress codes.

Now so far this violence has seen gangs targeting each other between the robberies they have pulled off but that's no reason to believe an unarmed Garda may not stumble into an outing by these boyoos.


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## Nighttrain (Dec 10, 2004)

It was interesting to see in the roll call of Gardai killed in the line of duty that almost to the man, they were all shot to death. Clearly violence involving weapons has been part of the modern Irish culture since the inception of the Gardai. My hat is off to these men and women. I'm not so sure I would attempt to arrest multiple armed suspects while being unarmed. No, I wouldn't.

Still, my one trip to the Emerald isle was the most relaxed i've ever been in my life. It was amusing to see the expressions of my relatives in Dublin when I answered the question of what types/how many weapons did I carry or have access to. The sidearm itself impresses them but when you explain you also have a military style patrol rifle with you it blows them away. It was clearly difficult for them to think of police employing military grade weapons, body armor, and tactics.


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## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

The Gardai this week released some statistics I feel are important enough to share.
Keep in mind Ireland is about the size of the state of Maine and has a population of just over 4-million.

GARDAI have seized almost 900 firearms in the past year, according to new statistics.
The overall total of 886 weapons is down on the previous year when there was an official firearms and knives amnesty in place.
The haul included 10 machine guns, reflecting the weaponry being smuggled into the country for members of the feuding crime gangs in Limerick and Dublin.
Most of the machine guns recovered were linked to the Limerick gangs whose deadly feud resulted in 10 people being shot dead since 2002.
Two of them belonged to gangland figures in Dublin where a number of feuds were being fought on the streets.
A breakdown of the statistics shows that the gardai recovered 206 shotguns, 59 rifles, 28 revolvers, 293 pistols and airguns, 49 stun guns, 23 crossbows and six CS/CN gas canisters while 79 replica firearms and one pen gun were also found in searches.
The upsurge in the use of explosives and hoax devices to settle scores with rivals or intimidate likely extortion targets was also underlined in the garda figures.
The statistics show that four hand grenades were recovered, along with nine improvised explosive devices, nine pipe bombs, nine hoax devices, nine fireworks and five component parts for devices.
The use of devices has increased further so far this year. Up to yesterday there were 67 call-outs for the Army Bomb Disposal Unit since the start of January.
In nine cases the Army ordnance team had to deal with viable devices. There were 27 hoax devices, two false alarms and 29 of the calls were described as routine.
According to the gardai, 30 firearms were recovered by the newly established Organised Crime Unit, which had a "highly successful" year in 2007.


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

I think in the near future the people of Ireland, along with the Gardai are going to have to wake up and smell the coffee. They're either going to have to :
1. Arm officers, if not all the officers, at least a good proportion of them. Also, have officers wear ballistic body armor and dump that absurd stab-vest crap.
2. Have the Army patrol with the police.

An unarmed man doesn't tell an armed man to do anything. He politely requests.


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## rg1283 (Sep 14, 2005)

The British Army does or used to patrol with the Northern Ireland Police on a daily basis.


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## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

The British Army pretty well pulled out last Summer turning over full security responsibility to the Police Service of Northern Ireland. There are still some troops that remained behind but they're limited now in their operations. PSNI and Gardai do cooperate fully in investigating IRA and cases. They are even doing some joint trainings.
In the meantime, to bring you all up to date on trainings on the other side of the law intelligence reports this week say about 30 drug gang operatives from Dublin have gone over to Prague this week for firearms training, learning how to handle fully automatic weapons. This training is taking place on a range which is fully legal in Prague. The gangsters say they are going to a bachelor weekend, but Gardai know otherwise. As I've said before, these gang bangers focus their attention on rival gangs and police are not the primary target. I suspect some unarmed Gardai are hoping they improve their shooting when the try to take out some key bangers. An unusual number of Irish thugs have escaped death even though they were peppered with bullets by other gangsters, much to the chagrin of the Garda.


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## irish937 (Sep 13, 2005)

I visited the Garda "College" in Templemore a few years ago. I spoke with a few recruits and one of the topics that came up was about police being armed. For the most part, they did not want to be armed. Many of the plain clothes Gardai are armed. People need to remember society is still very different there. They claim they are not a "Gun Culture" and feel arming uniformed police sends a wrong message. This is even after years of the 26+6 argument. I disagreed, but I live in a different society.

I visited the Garda College in Templemore in 2000. I had occasion to speak with a few of the recruits and the topic about arming police came up. For the most part they did not want to be armed. They still feel they are not a "Gun Culture". Surprising, but true. This, even after years of the 26+6 argument. According to those I spoke with, arming the uniformed Gardai sends the wrong message. Many of the plain clothes officers are armed. This is because the weapons are not visible to the general public. I think the logic is crazy, but it is still a different society. Just to give a little insight about how deep this runs, I spoke with a retired Gardai sergeant over a few pints. He had been involved in a robbery many years ago and was shot by one of the robbers. He was uniformed and unarmed. He still did not think firearms were necessary.


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## Edmizer1 (Aug 27, 2006)

A few of the above posts are confused about which country is being talked about. Southern Ireland is handled by the Gardai. Northern Ireland is an entirely different country and is handled by the "RUC" police department. The RUC do patrol with the British army sometimes because Northern Ireland is part of England. Think of Ireland and Northern Ireland as compared to the US and Canada.


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## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

Sorry Ed...You are a bit behind times. There is no longer an RUC....And the British Army no longer patrols.. The Police Service of Northern Ireland now patrols the 6 counties and the British Army is, from what I hear, glad to be mostly out of the picture. There is, for the most part, a much better relationship between the two Irelands...but some die hards still appear from time to time. The Garda Siochana (Guardians of the Peace) patrol the Irish Republic. And Irish, 137, you do understand correctly the true feelings of the Irish cops..they don't like and for the most part don't want guns....Neither do they understand how we could ever accept them as a normal tool.


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## Inspector (Nov 13, 2006)

The gang battle referred to earlier in this thread is bringing more action from the Garda Siochana as evidenced by the story in today's IRISH HERALD:

Armed detectives are continuing their "in your face" tactics against suspected crime and drug gangs who are determined to launch a bloody feud between warring factions.
Having targeted those with allegiance to "Fat" Freddie Thompson last week, they have now moved on those associated with a rival gang leader.
More than 20 houses and apartments were hit in the first blitz -- followed up by dawn swoops on around a dozen locations in Dublin yesterday.
Four suspects received visits in the Drimnagh/Crumlin area, two apartments were visited in Tallaght, two more in Blanchardstown and others in the north inner city.
"The object is to let these people know that we know who they are," said a senior officer. 
"It is giving them an 'in your face' message and we get across to them that their movements are our business and they are under surveillance. We want to keep murder and bloodshed off the streets.
"Nothing of major significance was found and no one was arrested. But the message got across," the officer added.
Meanwhile, senior gardai have tipped off Interpol and security services in Spain about the movements of a number of Irish criminal and drug suspects into its holiday resorts.
Attack
They have moved out of Dublin south inner city areas after a grenade attack on the family home of a groom-to-be on Saturday morning.
The wedding and reception, scheduled for 10 days time in a Dublin hotel, have been called off and may be now held on the Costa.
The target of the grenade was not there but members of his family, who are respected locally and have no connection with any criminal activities, had to experience the horror of the 2am attack. A six-year-old boy and a 14-year-old girl were among the six people in the house at the time.
Other innocent victims have already been on the receiving end of the violence, with grandmother Jane McKeever being shot in the shoulder while holding her eight-month-old grandson Alex. 
Relatives of Freddie Thompson also had shots fired through the front window of their home. 
- Charlie Mallon


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## Anonymous (Jan 1, 1970)

It's also important to note that no uniformed members of the Gardai carry firearms, while PSNI officers do (for good reason).

Ireland is going to have to deal with the issue of arming the entire force soon. Much of the reason for the Gardai not being armed is directly related to the fact that the RIC (the Royal Irish Constabulary, pre-1921 32 county police force under British administration) were armed, and were seen as a threat to the population. With the inception of the state (Irish Free State and later Eire) and the creation of a uniquely Irish police force (an Garda Siochana), guns were not used as a reaction to perceived British militarism.

Today, however, gangland crime is on the rise, and armed robbery is almost an epidemic; cops need to armed as well as criminals in order to fight back.


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