# No handcuffs while in uniform?



## rg1283 (Sep 14, 2005)

I have been debating making a post about this, but its driving me nuts more now as we go into the spring detail season.

What is with police officers working details with out handcuffs on their duty belts? Maybe they are carrying them in their pockets or something. Either way it is stupid not to carry handcuffs with you when your in uniform. If your carrying handcuffs in your pockets for some reason, your most likely going to be confused on the location of your handcuffs if you need them while on the detail.

With all of the variety of handcuffs and handcuff cases out there nowadays there is no excuse to NOT carry handcuffs while on a detail!
I understand police officers do not want to carry the entire bat belt while on a detail, but not carrying handcuffs give me a break! I also understand not ALL police officers do this, but its pound foolish not to carry handcuffs while in uniform.

Also what is with some administrative officers (Lts, chiefs, etc.) not carrying handcuffs while in uniform? 

Its just so foolish and makes the public think of police officers more as clowns and gives them more stupid ammo for the anti-detail argument.

One time many years ago I was in Boston with one of my relatives, I was about 6 or 7 years old, a Boston Police officer was working a detail with just the gun and radio. For whatever reason a suspect the Boston Police were looking for ran right past the detail officer, the detail officer then tackled the guy and was reaching on his belt looking for his non existent handcuffs. After a few swears words, back-up quickly arrived from the MDC Police, Capitol Police, MBTA Police, you name it they showed up. 

What if this Boston Police Officer was working a detail in a small town and he didn't have the luxury of back-up readily available?


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## Guest (May 8, 2008)

I always wear my full duty belt when working a detail. The only times I don't are in-service training or when working dispatch, but even then I always have cuffs on my belt.


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## phuzz01 (May 1, 2002)

Delta784 said:


> I always wear my full duty belt when working a detail.


I do the same, and I think that all police officers should wear a full uniform and full duty belt when working a detail. Our entire argument for police details is that we are able to act as a police officer whenever a crime is committed at or near the work site. And yet I see details up here all the time where the officer is in BDU pants and a t-shirt, with nothing more than a gun in a pancake holster. It looks terribly unprofessional to the public, and it leads to the observation that any flagman with a pistol permit could do that...


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

I agree...the companies pay for our uniformed presence, not to wear shorts, a polo shirt and pancake holster. I am required to wear full pack at details, and I don't think this is any particular burden.


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## Guest (May 10, 2008)

now i personally think that officers (excluding bike patrol) should wear pants and duty belton a detail. however on a road detail i really think that the dual color polo shirts look sharp and i would rather wear that then a uniform shirt. 
im not sure if anyone has seen these but their either yellow and bluse or a light blue and a dark blue. 

but i would much rather wear that than a uniform shirt on road details sometimes its WAY to hott!


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## phuzz01 (May 1, 2002)

rokurmthr61 said:


> but i would much rather wear that than a uniform shirt on road details sometimes its WAY to hott!


Again, any civilian flagman can buy a bright yellow polo shirt and work a road job. We have to set ourselves apart, even if it makes us a little more uncomfortable. That means standard uniform, full duty belt, marked cruiser whenever possible (I realize not possible for all agencies), and taking proactive steps at the detail that a flagman cannot.

When conditions allow, I like to run LIDAR at the few details that I work. The construction guys appreciate the fact that traffic is actually being slowed down through the site, and they also like the fact that the idiots that are blowing through there are driving away with $300 paper. Plus, I feel like the public is getting their money's worth for the amount they pay me.


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## Deuce (Sep 27, 2003)

Not to flame my trooper bretheren, but it's easy to say "wear your gear", "set yourself apart", when you have a take home you can sit in. (please don't insult my intelligence gents) 
However for those of us not so fortunate, 8 hrs on pavement makes one rethink the benefits of 20lbs of battle rattle on one's hips.. Especially those of us with a little more "experience" on our bodies...
Full traditional uni, cover, sidearm in a Serpa holster, radio, cuffs, money belt, sunflower seeds, and a tin is good to go. Full Batman belt is optional, and if you wear your body armor, well, good on ya...


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## PearlOnyx (Jun 28, 2002)

I think it's kind of sad that uniform standards in general for police officers are lowering. It's not uncommon to see a cop in shorts, a polo shirt, and sneakers. That's not just down here. There is at least one North Shore town that his this uniform for the summer months. I can see for specialty jobs that require a little more mobility, but level one of the use of force scale is presence. Personally, I don't see much presence with the bad guy when you're hairy legs are hanging out and you're standing there in your Nike's. My 2 cents...


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## Guest (May 10, 2008)

PearlOnyx said:


> I think it's kind of sad that uniform standards in general for police officers are lowering. It's not uncommon to see a cop in shorts, a polo shirt, and sneakers. That's not just down here. There is at least one North Shore town that his this uniform for the summer months. I can see for specialty jobs that require a little more mobility, but level one of the use of force scale is presence. Personally, I don't see much presence with the bad guy when you're hairy legs are hanging out and you're standing there in your Nike's. My 2 cents...


You just touched upon one of my ultimate pet peeves....the last I checked, we're members of a police department not a golf team, ski team, or part of a beach volleyball competition.

A couple of years ago I saw two South Shore cops working a detail wearing shorts, polo shorts, and baseball caps. They looked like complete toolbags, to the point I almost stopped and told them they looked ridiculous.


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

Deuce said:


> Not to flame my trooper bretheren, but it's easy to say "wear your gear", "set yourself apart", when you have a take home you can sit in. (please don't insult my intelligence gents)
> However for those of us not so fortunate, 8 hrs on pavement makes one rethink the benefits of 20lbs of battle rattle on one's hips.. Especially those of us with a little more "experience" on our bodies...
> Full traditional uni, cover, sidearm in a Serpa holster, radio, cuffs, money belt, sunflower seeds, and a tin is good to go. Full Batman belt is optional, and if you wear your body armor, well, good on ya...


My thoughts exactly. Actually, I haven't seen any officer wear a full duty belt on a detail unless they had a cruiser. I thought the standard was gun, radio and cuffs on the belt. The other day I saw an officer on a detail without cuffs and thought it was odd.



phuzz01 said:


> That means standard uniform, full duty belt, marked cruiser whenever possible (I realize not possible for all agencies), and taking proactive steps at the detail that a flagman cannot.


On some road jobs where a cruiser is a necessity and the PD doesn't have a car to spare, I've seen guys with a blue light in their PC.


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## Guest (May 10, 2008)

resqjyw0 said:


> My thoughts exactly. Actually, I haven't seen any officer wear a full duty belt on a detail unless they had a cruiser.


All this complaining about wearing a full duty belt for 8 hours; I have to ask.....has anyone here besides me actually walked a beat in their career??


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## phuzz01 (May 1, 2002)

Deuce said:


> Not to flame my trooper bretheren, but it's easy to say "wear your gear", "set yourself apart", when you have a take home you can sit in. (please don't insult my intelligence gents)


I have worked full 8-10 hr details directing traffic in four way intersections when the lights are being repaired, or feeding two way traffic through one lane during paving jobs. So it's not like my only experience is sitting in a cone package reading the paper. I know it is hot, and I know you get tired standing out there. But, that's why you get paid the big bucks. If you can't do it in uniform with the bat belt on, don't sign up for the detail.


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

> You just touched upon one of my ultimate pet peeves....the last I checked, we're members of a police department not a golf team, ski team, or part of a beach volleyball competition.


Agreed, if the duty belt is such a burden, then you don't need to be on the road.

We are paid at details for our *uniformed* presence. If you are wearing something that does not make you _instantly_ recognizable as a police officer, then you need to wearing something that does. If we weren't paid for our deterrent presence, then we could go to details in jeans and a T-shirt, wearing a raid jacket. Any time officers are not in full pack, and dressed like they work at Staples, you give ammunition to people who see it and ask themselves "why not replace these boobs with flagmen...they're just as much of a deterrent?"



> Not to flame my trooper bretheren, but it's easy to say "wear your gear", "set yourself apart", when you have a take home you can sit in.


Doesn't make a difference...you wear a uniform at work, you wear a uniform on a detail. Want a take home? Take the test and run the SPA for 25 weeks, and you can pick up your cruiser keys at the end. Besides, having a cruiser at a detail certainly helps give us ammunition against the flagmen supporters. I routinely write V's and help out at accidents, DMV's, BOLO's and other events at details. Many times, detail cruisers are the first to arrive at accidents or other incidents.


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## Guest (May 10, 2008)

http://www.officerstore.com/store/p...o_pique_short_sleeve_polo_shirt_yellow_black/

how is this not appropriate?

i think its safer! do to the high-vis colors! 
its cooler! and comfortable!

and your still in UNIFORM! which is what they are paying for right?


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## Guest (May 10, 2008)

rokurmthr61 said:


> how is this not appropriate?


Because you'd look like a 1970's era entertainment director on the _Love Boat_?



rokurmthr61 said:


> i think its safer! do to the high-vis colors!


I don't consider it safe when motorists are gawking at that ridiculous shirt, thinking "Who the hell is that?".



rokurmthr61 said:


> its cooler! and comfortable!


If that's the ultimate goal, then why not tank tops? Hell....why not be "skins" and really be comfortable?



rokurmthr61 said:


> and your still in UNIFORM! which is what they are paying for right?


Let's all dress like the Boston Red Sox at home for our next details. After all, it's a uniform, right?


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## rg1283 (Sep 14, 2005)

The only department that I can think of, that has the gayest looking uniforms and if pathetic looking are some of the towns on Route 16. I saw some guy in a yellow shirt, my girlfriend said, "whos that a flag clown". Turns out it was a police officer on a detail. I think Douglas used to have yellow shirts, but have phased them out. I can understand the uses of yellow and orange, etc. on traffic vests and coats, but on a shirt makes you look like the garbage collector or just plain silly. I have also noticed more state troopers outside standing on details on 290, which I think is awesome. I have noticed this trend in the last few years.


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## MM1799 (Sep 14, 2006)

rg1283 said:


> I have also noticed more state troopers outside standing on details on 290, which I think is awesome. I have noticed this trend in the last few years.


They want to at least give themselves a fighting chance when someone slams into their cruiser at 90mph.


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

Delta784 said:


> All this complaining about wearing a full duty belt for 8 hours


Don't misconstrue my words as a personal complaint. I'm a lot younger than you and my body is up to wearing a full duty belt for 8 hours. I'm just giving some consideration to the guys that have been on 20+ years and their bodies constantly remind them of their experience. Maybe years down the road I will be in the same position they are in. So obviously I'm not saying take this from experience. It's just my $0.02 based on what I have taken from the experience of others.



phuzz01 said:


> I have worked full 8-10 hr details directing traffic in four way intersections when the lights are being repaired, or feeding two way traffic through one lane during paving jobs. So it's not like my only experience is sitting in a cone package reading the paper. I know it is hot, and I know you get tired standing out there. But, that's why you get paid the big bucks. If you can't do it in uniform with the bat belt on, don't sign up for the detail.


In the flagmen thread, remarks were made that if they were given a higher base salary they wouldn't have to work details (not that I disagree). So I don't see how you can say if you can't wear a full belt on a detail then don't sign up (unless you disagree with the previous statement). They need the money too. If they didn't they would gladly not sign up for details or even retire early. Anyone *could* wear the full belt and stand on pavement for 8 hours. It is just when they wake up the next day there are some that are going to feel it and may be out of work for the next day or two because of the toll it took on their back. They get screwed with whatever choice they make. So are you going to tell them to retire? I hope you don't get an injury on the job that will haunt you for the rest of your career. God fordid if you do, you'll be eating your words.

Maybe there are some details where the officer will need their full duty belt. If it's one of those types of jobs, advise the officer that they must wear a full duty belt or refuse. Nobody is going to use their baton or mace to direct traffic. Use the radio if you need assistance. Your training should be able to hold you until a patrol car arrives. That gun on your hip isn't just for show. It's just in case if things get out of hand and your life is in jeopardy.

As far as setting yourself apart, I think the tin, radio, citation book and pen already sets any officer apart from any flagman.


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## phuzz01 (May 1, 2002)

resqjyw0 said:


> Nobody is going to use their baton or mace to direct traffic.


Civilian flagmen are there to direct traffic, which is why they do not need a baton or mace. In contrast, whether they are directing traffic or not, police officers are there to be police officers. That means stopping violators, arresting wanted persons on BOLOs, and taking other enforcement action as necessary. Don't bother bringing your ticket tin if you aren't going to wear the other equipment to back it up. If you stop a violator and they get squirrely on you, you are going to want something in between hard hand controls and lethal force.

What it comes down to is that if you aren't going to bring the proper equipment for the job, then why should they bother hiring a police officer at all? They might as well hire Joe Shmuck for less money...


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

phuzz01 said:


> Civilian flagmen are there to direct traffic, which is why they do not need a baton or mace. In contrast, whether they are directing traffic or not, police officers are there to be police officers. That means stopping violators, arresting wanted persons on BOLOs, and taking other enforcement action as necessary. Don't bother bringing your ticket tin if you aren't going to wear the other equipment to back it up. If you stop a violator and they get squirrely on you, you are going to want something in between hard hand controls and lethal force.
> 
> What it comes down to is that if you aren't going to bring the proper equipment for the job, then why should they bother hiring a police officer at all? They might as well hire Joe Shmuck for less money...


I'm not going to turn this into a pissing match. Although you, as well as Delta, make valid points (I won't deny that), I am not going to screw the old-timer that has taken his share of bumps and bruises over the course of his career because I am younger and more fortunate that I can handle being on my feet with a full belt for 8 hours on pavement. I also don't believe an officer equipped with just a gun, a radio and cuffs on his belt is any less capable of doing the job than someone with a full belt. Every officer has fists, elbows and knees. If that doesn't work, that radio on the hip is military grade. I'll leave it at that.


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## robodope (Aug 31, 2003)

I agree I'd rather be in a uniform...It looks more professional then BBQ wear...lol...The duty belt is a personal choice...Like everything else officers always constantly evaluating what their other officers are doing like a bingo hall full of old ladies..Just mind your own keep...and do what you think is best for you!


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## Sgt K (Mar 31, 2004)

A few years ago, I attended a training seminar and listened to an attorney lecture about defending police officers in use of force situations. Her entire practice in Los Angeles is dedicated to defending leo's. A gem that I took from her lecture was a real life nightmare for one of her clients in a "1983" suit. Her client was equipped with only a gun and a badge and ended up in a shooting. The plaintiff's ("victim") attorney walked the poor officer through the ladder of force. Skipping over voice commands and open hand control and restraint techniques, the attorney asked: Officer did you have an aerosal agent with you? "no" Did you have a baton, asp, or any other type of impact tool? "no" Were you carrying handcuffs? "no" So officer by not having any tools with you to gain compliance from my client, you went straight to shooting him, isn't that true? "No" Well you did shoot my client didn't you? "Yes" And by not carrying any handcuffs, you had no other choice but to shoot my client? His answer.......listen for the cash register opening......"yes".

I wear a full duty belt on duty, details, and court( a place far more dangerous than the street).

My pet peeve is the officer parading around in court in plain clothes with only a badge clipped on a belt. Absolutely beautiful! Ask the officer who ended up in the middle of the "99" shooting in Charlestown a couple of years ago. Fortunately his partner was carrying.

How about the officers at the end of tour that strip off the gear, deposit it in a locker, and drive home in uniform, badge conspicuosly displayed, without a sidearm?

Personally, I don't carry a gun,on or off-duty, without having access to my cuffs and either o.c. or an impact tool. Additionally, I don't put on a uniform badge unless there is a vest underneath it and that includes details, inside the station, and court. 

Lastly, a vest is warm, especially on details, my experience tells me.......the bullet is a lot hotter!


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## phuzz01 (May 1, 2002)

resqjyw0 said:


> I'm not going to turn this into a pissing match.


This isn't a pissing match, it's simply a discussion among peers. If, at the end of this thread, people still decide to wear yellow shirts and pancake holsters, I will respect their decision. I just want to get my two cents out there for consideration...


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## Guest (May 11, 2008)

resqjyw0 said:


> I'm just giving some consideration to the guys that have been on 20+ years and their bodies constantly remind them of their experience.


Ummm....that _is _me, but I seem to not need my Lark scooter the day after wearing a full duty belt for 8 hours on a detail. 



resqjyw0 said:


> Nobody is going to use their baton or mace to direct traffic. Use the radio if you need assistance. Your training should be able to hold you until a patrol car arrives. That gun on your hip isn't just for show. It's just in case if things get out of hand and your life is in jeopardy.


The great majority of road details I work are in densely populated residential or business areas; it's entirely possible I'll have to respond to a domestic, disorder, or any other incident I would ordinarily respond to while working a regular shift (remember that's our main argument for not using flagmen).

I wouldn't go on patrol without my full duty belt for a reason, so a detail is no different. The last thing I want to do is respond from a detail to a domestic with just my gun and radio, to find the suspect squaring off and saying "Let's go motherfucker!!". I certainly can't shoot him, so then what? Get into a wrestling match where the chances are much better he'd get my gun out of a pancake holster than the Level 3 security holster on my duty belt? No thanks.....if I'm a little sore the next day from wearing a full duty belt, I'll take some Motrin and deal with it.

Remember ladies & gentlemen.....we train for the unexpected because we deal with the unexpected. Not having the proper tools for the sake of convenience goes against everything you should have been trained.


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## sweeper20 (Dec 22, 2006)

Its hard to make an argument to the public that its important to have a police officer with full police powers on a paid detail and, at the same time, see them wear part of the uniform. People watch, and certainly after all of the media coverage, they are paying close attention. If the argument is made that a flagman is not nearly as good because they do not have the authority (and motorist won't respect their slow/stop signs) and having a fully trained police officer is much more effective, for both the safety and as a deterrent, then show them that. (fully trained meaning having all the equipment) By saying that certain part or parts of the uniform aren't really needed, could be misconstrued as saying maybe you don't need a "full" police presence. Just my two cents.


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## j809 (Jul 5, 2002)

I know an officer that was working a detail in large city without a gun and two guys B&E as business. These guys were on a roof and officer held them at fingerpoint until units arrived to make the arrest.


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## Guest (May 11, 2008)

Delta784 said:


> The great majority of road details I work are in densely populated residential or business areas; it's entirely possible I'll have to respond to a domestic, disorder, or any other incident I would ordinarily respond to while working a regular shift (remember that's our main argument for not using flagmen).


so your saying that its alright to leave your detailed spot b/c there is a call near you! thats BS you were hired as a uniform cop TO DIRECT TRAFFIC or other random shit! if you want to put it like that people are going to be in favor of flagmen b/c they don't have to go anywhere! I can understand certain calls but there are shift guys on duty they can handle them! 
its like do youy offduty and you here this call so you go to it?l?!??!?!?! 
thats pathetic


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## MM1799 (Sep 14, 2006)

rokurmthr61 said:


> so your saying that its alright to leave your detailed spot b/c there is a call near you! thats BS you were hired as a uniform cop TO DIRECT TRAFFIC or other random shit! if you want to put it like that people are going to be in favor of flagmen b/c they don't have to go anywhere! I can understand certain calls but there are shift guys on duty they can handle them!
> its like do youy offduty and you here this call so you go to it?l?!??!?!?!
> thats pathetic


That's the dumbest thing I've ever read. First and foremost, you are a police officer. Obviously it's a case-by-case but if some woman is getting knocked around by her husband and you decide traffic is much more important than you are pathetic. The same applies to an accident with PI, a BOLO, a drunk that almost hit the setup, etc. It's not like you stay there and shoot the shit. Once you are relieved you return to your detail. It happens all the time.

Get a clue before you post.


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## Guest (May 11, 2008)

my understanding of delta's post was to RESPOND to calls in the area that you are directing traffic ovb if you see it you have to act!


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## Kem25 (Aug 7, 2007)

Reading the comments about this subject really makes me wish my department would come out with a mandatory equipment list for details and patrol. I worked a detail with a guy the other day who had his gun and Ipod.....thats just dumb! My proposal as mandatory equipment is: Gun (obvious), at least one spare magazine, radio and one intermediate tool (OC or Baton; officers choice). I would leave the choice of wearing a vest up to the individual officer....I know some guys think that nothing will ever happen when they are working a detail but we all know the sh$% hits the fan when we least expect (or want) it to.


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## Guest (May 11, 2008)

rokurmthr61 said:


> so your saying that its alright to leave your detailed spot b/c there is a call near you! thats BS you were hired as a uniform cop TO DIRECT TRAFFIC or other random shit! if you want to put it like that people are going to be in favor of flagmen b/c they don't have to go anywhere! I can understand certain calls but there are shift guys on duty they can handle them!
> its like do youy offduty and you here this call so you go to it?l?!??!?!?!
> thats pathetic


Pathetic?

Pathetic would be for a uniformed police officer to stay at a traffic post while a woman was being beaten by her husband or a fellow officer needed help within running distance.

I agree with MM1799....that's just about the stupidest thing I've ever read in these pages, which is saying a lot.


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## phuzz01 (May 1, 2002)

rokurmthr61 said:


> thats BS you were hired as a uniform cop TO DIRECT TRAFFIC or other random shit!


If all they wanted was someone to direct traffic, they would hire flagmen. They hire police officers because they want somebody there that can take appropriate action for ANY safety hazard in the area of the job site. Whether it be speeding vehicles, impaired drivers, a brawl nearby or a guy with a gun, you are there to be a police officer. That is what the construction guys want, not just an arm flapper.


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## dave7336 (Mar 25, 2006)

rokurmthr61 said:


> so your saying that its alright to leave your detailed spot b/c there is a call near you! thats BS you were hired as a uniform cop TO DIRECT TRAFFIC or other random shit! if you want to put it like that people are going to be in favor of flagmen b/c they don't have to go anywhere! I can understand certain calls but there are shift guys on duty they can handle them!
> its like do youy offduty and you here this call so you go to it?l?!??!?!?!
> thats pathetic


Police Officers have a duty to act...failure to do this is called negligence!!! If a call, especially if it is serious such as Robbery, Medical, etc.., you better get your butt over there to help...

I would suggest reading this case from Gloucester...

http://www.badcopnews.com/2007/12/1...assachusetts-police-officer-stephen-lamberis/

P.S. I think the badcopnews website sucks but it shows what could possibly happen.. Also I am not trying to put the officer in a bad light. Just want people to be aware of things that could affect them.


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## Guest (May 11, 2008)

rokurmthr61 said:


> so your saying that its alright to leave your detailed spot b/c there is a call near you! thats BS you were hired as a uniform cop TO DIRECT TRAFFIC or other random shit! if you want to put it like that people are going to be in favor of flagmen b/c they don't have to go anywhere! I can understand certain calls but there are shift guys on duty they can handle them!
> its like do youy offduty and you here this call so you go to it?l?!??!?!?!
> thats pathetic


My eyes are bleeding from that post. I'll try to translate it into English:

So, you are saying that it's ok to leave your detail spot because there is a call near you? That is BS. You were hired as a uniformed cop to direct traffic, or other random shit. If you want to put it like that, people are going to be in favor of flagmen because they won't leave their post. I can understand certain calls, but there are route cars that can handle them. I am sorry, but the last sentence is so retarded, I could not fix it. That is TRULY pathetic.

btw, I fall in the "full gear and uniform" category. Look squared away, be prepared, and collect a nice paycheck.


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## PearlOnyx (Jun 28, 2002)

Roku,

That shirt looks like a 1970's bowling shirt in my opinion. I think part of the problem is that we are giving away uniformity and command appearance for cool and comfort. It's over 90 for most of July and August, and I survive my off duty jobs in a good ol' Class B uniform. I just find it hard to take a guy in shorts and sneakers seriously. If you want high visibility wear your department issued ANSI traffic vest. To each their own though.

As far as not wearing your belt on a detail, I used to be guilty of just wearing a paddle holster myself, but with my current agency I don't have that choice, nor would I now. If you end up in a use of force situation and you don't have all of your tools available to you, you place yourself in an dangerous liability situation. See previous posting on shooting...


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## Deuce (Sep 27, 2003)

Delta784 said:


> All this complaining about wearing a full duty belt for 8 hours; I have to ask.....has anyone here besides me actually walked a beat in their career??


Yup for 3 years..



Killjoy said:


> Want a take home? Take the test and run the SPA for 25 weeks, and you can pick up your cruiser keys at the end.


c'mon dude, I thought you were above that...


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## Rock (Mar 20, 2005)

*WEBSTERS DEF*
UNIFORM:
1 : having always the same form, manner, or degree : not varying or variable <uniform procedures>
2 : consistent in conduct or opinion <uniform interpretation of laws>
3 : of the same form with others : conforming to one rule or mode : consonant
4 : presenting an unvaried appearance of surface, pattern, or color <uniform red brick houses>
5 : relating to or being convergence of a series whose terms are functions in such manner that the absolute value of the difference between the sum of the first n terms of the series and the sum of all terms can be made arbitrarily small for all values of the domain of the functions by choosing the nth term sufficiently far along in the series

A uniform is called what it is for a reason. Look and act professional and you will be treated as such.....(usually). Command presence has been mentioned and step one is the appearance of control and being squared away. I worked for a local dept before the MSP so I feel fortunate to be able to speak for both. I would show up for a shift for the local with 5 patrols on the shift and all 5 would be in different uniforms. I did the same thing so I'm not razzing the locals but I did wish at the time we all showed up looking "uniform".


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## j809 (Jul 5, 2002)

I got a take home and I wear shorts with a stubby 38 ,polo shirt with a baseball cap and no belt or any other gizmos besides my nextel which is glued to my ear 24/7, so I may have one hand free for coffee cup and use the other flipper for traffic, and my detail pager, also i didn't have to go to the SPA.


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

> c'mon dude, I thought you were above that...


I am..until someone kicks my bag in for having a take-home cruiser. BTW..I worked a road job with some Worcester guys last week, and they both had cruisers.


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## trueblue (Jan 21, 2008)

My department like most if not all others has pretty clear rules on what equipment you must carry while on duty (Including ANY TYPE OF DETAIL). It's a complete duty belt. Some have said that you can get away without your stick, oc spray. What??? You get in the jackpot and you shoot someone that could have been controlled with OC and your department will shove the rules up your ass and you will be fighting for your career, then maybe your freedom. And some dept. lawyer will read the rule on TV just to absolve any wrongdoing by the dept. To put it simply...does an electrician who works side jobs only take a few of his tools to the job? No. Anyone not taking all of their equipment with them is asking for trouble. Just my .02 worth.


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

Delta784 said:


> Ummm....that _is _me, but I seem to not need my Lark scooter the day after wearing a full duty belt for 8 hours on a detail.


I hope I'm as fortunate as you when I get to be your age. Seriously though, there are guys that basically would be like you described. Needing a lark scooter the day after wearing a full duty belt for 8 hours on a detail. The ones that are in that situation are undergoing medical treatment for their issues. There isn't a quick fix for some things so going out injured until it is finally resolved is avoided, if possible, because they need the extra money.



Delta784 said:


> The great majority of road details I work are in densely populated residential or business areas; it's entirely possible I'll have to respond to a domestic, disorder, or any other incident I would ordinarily respond to while working a regular shift (remember that's our main argument for not using flagmen).
> 
> I wouldn't go on patrol without my full duty belt for a reason, so a detail is no different. The last thing I want to do is respond from a detail to a domestic with just my gun and radio, to find the suspect squaring off and saying "Let's go motherfucker!!". I certainly can't shoot him, so then what? Get into a wrestling match where the chances are much better he'd get my gun out of a pancake holster than the Level 3 security holster on my duty belt? No thanks.....if I'm a little sore the next day from wearing a full duty belt, I'll take some Motrin and deal with it.
> 
> Remember ladies & gentlemen.....we train for the unexpected because we deal with the unexpected. Not having the proper tools for the sake of convenience goes against everything you should have been trained.


In the City of Quincy, can't argue with that reasoning. Like I said, just giving consideration to those that basically need it.


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## CJIS (Mar 12, 2005)

Personally I think the uniform you wear at a detail should be the same as you wear when on patrol. As far as gear. I say full belt is a must because the crap can hit the fan at any second. However I do believe in lightning the load on your hips. 

If you normally carry an extra set of cuffs, don't. If you normally carry a 26" steel baton, swap it with a 18" Aluminum. If you carry a Flashlight pouch take it off or the flashlight out.


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## Deuce (Sep 27, 2003)

Killjoy said:


> I am..until someone kicks my bag in for having a take-home cruiser.


Well Mr. Sensitive if you'll reread my intial reply you'll see that I said "not to flame my trooper bretheren".. I did not nor will not kick your bag in for having a take home cruiser. I'm sure I can find lots of other fun reasons to kick your bag in and make us laugh. Now come on down from that high horse before you hurt yourself...



Killjoy said:


> BTW..I worked a road job with some Worcester guys last week, and they both had cruisers.


146? Hope they weren't in it or the good Lt will spank their peepee..

Or they were officials.. If that's the case fuck em they think they can do what they want anyways..


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## lawdog671 (Sep 20, 2005)

+1 with the uniform/full pack on details....unless it was issued or approved in policy by your particular pd....already mentioned but a dirty rotten attorney would eat you alive in case of use of force without full issued gear AVAILABLE ...do you really think the couple million dollar "1983" lawsuit is worth the little bit of comfort you save by leaving 2 spare mags, a baton, and a couple ounce OC can behind for XX dollars???

And for the post about "thinking about the older" guys on the job...if someone can't wear a duty belt because of their age I would respectively offer two things...what do they do for/after regular shift?? ..and are they fit for this kinda work??


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

> Well Mr. Sensitive


That's Sir Mr. Sensitive to you. 



> 146? Hope they weren't in it or the good Lt will spank their peepee..
> 
> Or they were officials.. If that's the case fuck em they think they can do what they want anyways..


No, blocking a ramp for access to 290.

What's an "official?" Is that like a commissioned officer? (Lt and above)


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## Andy0921 (Jan 12, 2006)

The newspapers must be having a field day with this thread.


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## HELPMe (Dec 17, 2004)

I am not sure if it was a directive from the Colonel of the State Police but, lately I have been seeing troopers standing *outside *of their cruisers on the HW while on a construction detail. Good to see that they are stepping up the effort to impress the public.


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## jdmac33 (Feb 1, 2008)

I don't see a problem with wearing a uniform, off duty holster, cuffs, baseball hat, and a radio for details. Standing on pavement when it is 100 plus degrees out does a number on your body, never mind carrying an extra 20 Lbs.


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## Deuce (Sep 27, 2003)

Killjoy said:


> That's Sir Mr. Sensitive to you.
> 
> No, blocking a ramp for access to 290.
> 
> What's an "official?" Is that like a commissioned officer? (Lt and above)


Sir yes sir!

I don't know about being commissioned but ya, they're anyone not a grunt. They also like to call themselves "superior officers".. Whatta laff...


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

> "superior officers".. Whatta laff...


LOL!


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## Guest (May 14, 2008)

jdmac33 said:


> I don't see a problem with wearing a uniform, off duty holster, cuffs, baseball hat, and a radio for details. Standing on pavement when it is 100 plus degrees out does a number on your body, never mind carrying an extra 20 Lbs.


It won't kill you. Just ask the guy operating the jackhammer a few yards away; he most likely does it _every _day since that's his full time job, not supplemental income like it is for us.


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## phuzz01 (May 1, 2002)

Delta784 said:


> It won't kill you. Just ask the guy operating the jackhammer a few yards away; he most likely does it _every _day since that's his full time job, not supplemental income like it is for us.


Word.


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

jdmac33 said:


> I don't see a problem with wearing a uniform, off duty holster, cuffs, baseball hat, and a radio for details. Standing on pavement when it is 100 plus degrees out does a number on your body, never mind carrying an extra 20 Lbs.


That is defeating the whole argument in favor of details. The argument of having extra police officers ON DUTY - well, how can you be ON DUTY if your wearing an OFF DUTY holster.


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## ArchAngel2 (Oct 11, 2005)

Since we are required to carry a gun, radio, cuffs, spray, and have an impact tool readily accessible while on a detail I just wear the entire belt. It is a little heavier but easier and I have all my tools in their usual spot. Besides I don't have to waste time and take the chance of misplacig something if I keep it all together, and it looks more professional.


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## Kilvinsky (Jan 15, 2007)

For several years we've been authorized to wear uniform shorts, I don't recall the exact brand and style (I've yet to get them) but the type is VERY specific. If you're in the bike patrol you can wear bike uniform on OUTSIDE details so long as you have the bike with you. Otherwise, you wear the uniform.

I've never liked ball caps except in certain circumstances and though I keep toying with the idea of getting those shorts for those VERY hot days (48 and fat, yeah I think it's not a bad idea) and though I feel the polo shirts can look good (not the yellow ones) I go with a whole uniform. I haven't passed out yet and I hope I never do.

All you guys arguing in favor of full uniform, I cannot see anything wrong really with your arguments. I'm essentially on your side of the argument. Heck, summer uniform requires us to wear a mesh hat. I honestly don't like 'em much, but I gotta admit, on 90 degree days, I'm very glad I've got it on as opposed to the winter hat. That gentle breeze across my balding head is often a Godsend.

Those advocating the light comfortable style, you make good points too, but over all, *INSIDE* details should NEVER be in anything but the full outfit.

Outside details should be as close to the whole thing as can be but reasonable alternatives can't be dismissed.


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## trueblue (Jan 21, 2008)

Kilvinsky said:


> For several years we've been authorized to wear uniform shorts, I don't recall the exact brand and style (I've yet to get them) but the type is VERY specific. If you're in the bike patrol you can wear bike uniform on OUTSIDE details so long as you have the bike with you. Otherwise, you wear the uniform.
> 
> I've never liked ball caps except in certain circumstances and though I keep toying with the idea of getting those shorts for those VERY hot days (48 and fat, yeah I think it's not a bad idea) and though I feel the polo shirts can look good (not the yellow ones) I go with a whole uniform. I haven't passed out yet and I hope I never do.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. But what is a reasonable alternative and will it conform to your department rules? Also will you be at a tactical disadvantage by coming up with an unauthorized alternative? And could an officer who creates an alternative to the full duty belt leave himself/herself open to a lawsuit if they fail to take action because they don't have everything at their disposal? I wear the same equipment on detail as I do when I am on duty. I don't want to deal with lawsuit. And remember, when you're in trouble your department will stand behind you........WAY WAY BEHIND YOU! Just my .02 worth.


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## Kilvinsky (Jan 15, 2007)

Good points all. I do the same on detail and most of the gu...people do as well. I've always got this underlying feeling that, this'll be the one time I really could use my pepperspray or asp and I don't have either. To go without cuffs is just nuts. When my Dad was a railroad cop back in the late 50s early 60s, they gave him his uniform, a gun and a badge and with no formal training, deemed him a cop. I asked, "How the hell did you do the job with no cuffs?" He shrugged and said that they just did. Criminals could be more cooperative then I guess.

Once he got on my home town, he got everything he lacked while on the RR, but man, he missed the RR.

Anyway, back on topic, like I said, to not carry at LEAST the cuffs makes no sense. Lots of more casual uniforms do seem to accomodate all the toys that a regular uniform does and basically a bike uniform IS a regular uniform but for special purposes.


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