# Woman Dies After Red Sox Celebration



## metrowestblues (Aug 12, 2004)

So I'm just hearing on the news how a young woman died, apparently after being struck in the eye by a "non-lethal" weapon (plastic bullet) shot by the Boston Police. Now everyone is dumping on the cops.

I'm sorry this person died, but what happened to the notion of personal responsibility? Why does someone willingly put themselves in a potentially dangerous place? The BPD did a great job, but they are getting slammed by the media again.

I'm sure the multimillion dollar wrongful death lawsuit is already in the works....


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## briand911 (Jul 29, 2004)

does anyone know if this was an emerson student ???


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## metrowestblues (Aug 12, 2004)

Yes, it was a female Emerson student, name of Victoria Snellgrove.


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## topcop14 (Jul 13, 2004)

Ya I just watched the news and they said it was a 21 year old female student from Emerson College.
I feel bad for her family, but we all know how this will end up. Can you say witch hunt :twisted: 
The Media has already started the spin. What they were calling a riot last night is now being called a celebration ( I stayed up after the game and watched the animals go nuts and it looked like a riot to me.)


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## frapmpd24 (Sep 3, 2004)

I just saw the story on Ch. 5. Definately a horrible story. They reported the female student was a Junior at Emerson College. They also interviewed the young womans father too. I am sure the ambulance chasing attorney's will be lining up at the door for this lawsuit trying to blame it all on the police and make a name for themselves 

I am sure it is horrible for the family of the girl, but if your in the middle of an out of control crowd by choice, your at risk. Too bad the media is going to monday morning quarterback the Police Department and use of non-lethal force to death on this one. Last year the media and people said not enough was done and this year it will be too much. People are never happy... 

Good Job to all the officers who were out in the middle of that chaos...


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

I guess the sage advise "...don't get in front of a bullet..." would apply here. I was, as most of you were (or are) a "college rudent". I don't know about you, but going to school full-time and working a couple of jobs didn't leave much time for "college hijinks"!

I'm sure her ETOH was 0.00... :? 

Condolences to the family...but remember, you raised her and she is a reflection of your familial values...  

The victory (or defeat) of your 'sports' team is not an excuse to conduct yourself in an uncivilized manner.

Period.


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## Guest (Oct 21, 2004)

What is interesting is if you check the web site for the FN 303 which is what the weapon they say was used. It is lethal at less than five feet. I would be surprised if she was killed by the police, and not something else,bottle ,rock, fall. But it is still a tragedy, and made me think because I was there last night and walked right where she died.


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## Investigator25 (May 26, 2004)

It is an unfortunate incident, but it was not the less than lethal that killed her. Her and several other idiots were on top of a wall destroying signs glass and anything else. Less than lethat oc rounds were deployed. This girl fell of the wall that she shouldn't have been on and hit her head. She died from the head trauma later on.


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## metrowestblues (Aug 12, 2004)

Hmm...where did you see that she died as the result of a fall? I read that she was shot through the eye with the non-lethal...anybody have better info on this?


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## ROBOCOP1982 (Sep 4, 2002)

Yeh does not appear to be the result of a fall....this was posted on espn.com, 

"During a news conference carried live on local television stations, Boston Police Commissioner Kathleen O'Toole expressed the department's sympathies to Snelgrove's family and said the agency "accepts full responsibility for the death of Victoria Snelgrove."

"The Boston Police Department is devastated by this tragedy. This terrible event should never have happened," O'Toole said."

"It appears from evidence we have reviewed thus far that Tori was killed when she was hit in the eye by a projectile fired as officers tried to control mobs outside the ballpark," O'Toole said. "Designated officers were equipped with less-lethal systems that use projectiles designed to break upon impact, dousing the target with (pepper-like) spray."


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## Mikey682 (May 2, 2002)

That sucks for her family, i feel for them.

But did anyone else the video of those two chicks going at in the street? Holey shit! And then a boyfriend pulls one off of the other one by her hair! What a sweetheart.


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## masstony (Jun 24, 2002)

Sad, But if you have an ounce of common sense you would leave a situation where cops are trying disperce a rowdy crowd. 

OH yes... Nice job by the BPD Commish, ever hear of an investigation and standing by your cops until one is performed. Sounds like another Ray Kelly!!


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## briand911 (Jul 29, 2004)

if it was only that easy "police move back, police move back" they turn around with a stupid ass look on their faces then just get worse I'm sorry I do feel bad for the family but I can tell you right now i'm sure their daughter was not acting like a little angel at the time this happened !!!! if you don't comply then you suffer the consequences plain and simple sad that a person was killed.And I am sure the investigation will prove no wrong doing from the officer invovled, It was one hell of a night trust me we all had a long night im sure and this is only the beginning if they win the world series it will be the superbowl after math X 5 good luck and stay safe !!!!!


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## Irishpride (May 5, 2002)

First off I'd like to express my sympathy to this young woman's family. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be for them.

Second, as un-PC as it may be I can't help but think that this whole mess would have been avoided if the police were still allowed to use fire hoses to disperse crowds. I know it brings back the image of race riots but one can't argue the effectiveness of high-pressured H2O as a non-lethal.


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

As sad as it this tragedy is, ... it still comes down to the simple line of "In the wrong place at the wrong time".


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## HousingCop (May 14, 2004)

They were out in full force last night. At 12:01 I heard 15 gunshots in from the Hyde Square area in Jamaica Plain. Various &amp; scattered gunshots could be heard from across both sides Columbus Ave for the next 15 minutes or so. It's bad enough I had to deal with idiots driving and waving flags and beeping horns for 4 hours straight, but that's hardly anything compared to the BPD and NEMLEC guys had in Kenmore Square. 

Backed up NUPD with a car that was wanted for running over some dope in the middle of Mass Ave too. It was so busy, it took 20+ minutes to get a BPD unit to respond. I am not knocking the response time at all, I am just stating that they were extremely busy with the foolishness all over.

After watching TV from ESPN to Fox to local &amp; national coverage and seeing all the idiotic behavior displayed, I can state for certain that 98% of the troublemakers were less than 24 years old. Basically what I am saying is that the college idiots got out of hand once again and displayed their maturity putting Boston up there with the likes of Detroit, Cincinnati &amp; Watts. 

This is not a condemnation of any particular institution Police Department. In fact the college PD's handled their end of this pretty well, but their hands are basically tied once these bafoons leave the campus area. This now leads us into the tragedy that occured.

If you participate or are a bystander in a demonstration / celebration / riot / tummult and you get hurt because of being in the wrong place at the wrong time, who is to blame? Only YOU in my opinion. We are all adults and if you don't have the common sense to leave an area where the police are wearing full riot gear and advancing on you with 3 foot sticks and other weaponry, you are a fool &amp; basically get what you deserve. 

Oh sure, we can argue the fact that this is a free country and you reserve your right to demonstrate / celebrate / riot if you wish. I will argue back that the police can use reasonable restraint to disperse the rioters to curb their behavior. Scaling the outside of the "Green Monster" (a 40+ foot wall) or storming Fenway Park is not a right, it's a crime. Climbing up lightpoles, destroying DPW trucks, setting fires, overturning cars, vandalism, throwing glass bottles, M/V arson and other crimes are not a right of passage. These are crimes which should be dealt with harshly. This is not Haiti after a coup, this is Boston, the supposed Athens of America. 

Again, I feel for this young womans family but I was taught to avoid trouble such as this from an early age. I will teach my children the same. If you see trouble, avoid it. Don't join in or be a bystander. Turn directly around and go home.


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## frapmpd24 (Sep 3, 2004)

ROBOCOP1982 @ Thu Oct 21 said:


> Yeh does not appear to be the result of a fall....this was posted on espn.com,
> 
> "During a news conference carried live on local television stations, Boston Police Commissioner Kathleen O'Toole expressed the department's sympathies to Snelgrove's family and said the agency *"accepts full responsibility for the death of Victoria Snelgrove."*
> 
> ...


I did not see the press conference, but it seems kind of odd that The commissioner is taking full responsibility for her death a day after the incident occurred. As I and most of the other people who have posted stated, if your in a celebration/riot/tumultuous group, you put yourself at risk because the mob of people your within and its careless activity puts the citizens and police at risk. I am sure she was not just passing by and was in the middle of this mess (although the media will spin it that way I am sure).

That being said, it creates an extreme danger and risk of bodily harm or death to both citizens and the police, which would be a level five on the use of force continuum and a variety of responses would be appropriate, up to and including lethal force (non-lethal in this case it appears). I not top brass at BPD and their decision to come out with this the way they have perplexes me. :shock: If the officers were acting within the parameters of the use of force guidelines, then back them up!! Let the court sort it out later and don't hang the department and especially the officers out there to a lawsuit. I would not think the admins response to this would be too well received or help moral.


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## badogg88 (Dec 17, 2003)

I go to BSC, so I'm no where near Boston, but I can tell you that the kids who were "rioting" aren't real Red Sox fans. After the last out, all I could do was run and yell. The real fans were too much in shock to do anything "destructive". All those kids wanted to do was destroy things, they're not real baseball fans. Besides which, what's the point of ruining someone's car, or burning something, because a sports team won?

The girl who died comes from the town next to me and a bunch of people I know, knew her. I feel bad, however, something had to be done. Did someone have to die? Maybe, maybe not. We'll never know. But for everyone to be saying, "The police didn't have to shoot people. They could have done something else", what? What else coudl they do? Yell? Have the riot team line up? Have mounted officers? Cruisers? They did all that. There's nothing else that could have been done. It's a sad situation but we'll never know if it could have been resolved some other way.

There's absolutely no reason to destroy people's cars, set things on fire, destroy public property, start fights...just because a team won a game. I was excited too but all I could do was sit there and smile and freak out.

Well, that's all I have to say. Just my :2c:


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## Ranger2 (Aug 13, 2004)

It is a showing that 1 percent of the 99 percent of people are total and complete idiots. Becuase of there actions someone is tragically injured. I remember beign in college and celebrating wins.. When the police told me to leave I moved and left. I don't understand where some people get off telling LEO's to go screw and continue to move towards them in a gesturing manner. We have families and loved ones to go home to as well. I wouldn't let some brainless moron who could give 2 #$%@s about me or my family even attempt to put me in a position which endangers my life. 

We are all aware that people in numbers are a force. 100 officers really are not going to put to much fear in them. I say bring the wagons in, the minute some fool starts to get disorderly, make showing out of him and put him away. 

I can't beleive that O'Toole would even consider that statement about responsibility. That is just asking for public outcry. What ever happened to using force to vigitate the threat. Not, "Full responsibility for our actions". If you say that explain it.... Good God..!!! All day at work I have been explaing to people why the police traied to act in this manner. They don't want to hear it. All they care about is "police abusing their powers and blah blah blah".. well you know what I say.... When you are in trouble... who are the first people you call.. 911... Right... and when they don't do something you complain.. and when they do you complain... Next time .. don't call.


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## Guest (Oct 22, 2004)

I am reading the Herald right now and what the F**k. There is no need to put the pictures of that girl on the cover and the one inside. That paper seems to be going down hill every time I look at it.


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## badogg88 (Dec 17, 2003)

lancegoodthrust @ Fri October 22 said:


> I am reading the Herald right now and what the F**k. There is no need to put the pictures of that girl on the cover and the one inside. That paper seems to be going down hill every time I look at it.


I see that too. It's disgusting. I feel terrible but did they really have to put these pictures in?

I was listening to EEI this morning and the author of that article called in. He said that he had nothing to do with the pictures, that's up to the editor. It's disturbing...


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## Gil (Jun 15, 1998)

lancegoodthrust @ Fri Oct 22 said:


> I am reading the Herald right now and what the F**k. There is no need to put the pictures of that girl on the cover and the one inside. That paper seems to be going down hill every time I look at it.


Guess a few people are a little upset with them.

Friday, October 22, 2004 
Deserved better
By Lindsay Wagner
Your cover this morning was way over the top. Victoria Snelgrove deserved better than to be depicted this way.... [more]

Memory smeared
By Hank Dondero
What a disgrace! Your front page photo of Victoria Snelgrove lying mortally wounded is beyond the limits of decency and good taste. Why wasn't yo... [more]

Shocked
By Ellen Buckley
I am absolutely shocked at your front page photo today. Have some decency! What do you think you gain by putting a photo of the body of Ms. Snelg... [more]

Owe an apology
By April Kreyssig
I am absolutely disgusted by the front-page photo in today's Boston Herald. The photo of Victoria Snelgrove laying on Lansdowne Street is complet... [more]

Tragic
By Kristine Ohern
I am absolute appalled by the front page of today's paper. As if this incident isn't tragic enough for the family, you have to advertise it to ev... [more]

Disgraceful
By Doreen LaBrecque
I can not believe you printed those pictures of Victoria Snelgrove lying dead on the ground. Have a little sympathy for her friends and family.... [more]

Outrageous
By Annie Eason
Today's front page of the Herald is outrageous. I realize news is news-but dont you have any compassion at all for the family of Victoria Snelgro... [more]

Upsetting
By Dallas Bleak
I am disgusted with the photo's you have displayed in the Heral today of the young woman who was killed the boston police. I can not believe the ... [more]

Horrified
By Raquel Ruano
I am usually a fan of the Herald for all the attention that it gives to local affairs. This morning, however, I was horrified (does not even be... [more]

Ashamed
By Nicolle Bradley
You should be ashamed at yourself for todays cover of the Boston Herald. A young girl was killed and you put a picture of her lifeless body on ... [more]

No need
By Keith Mahler
I cant believe the pictures your editors decided to print in todays addition of the Herald. There is no need for those pictures to be shown in ... [more]

Mourning
By Michele Robichaud
Your newspaper has sunk to a new low putting the picture of that young girl on the front page this morning. How do you think her parents are goin... [more]

Disgusting
By Lauren A.
Never in my life have I been as disturbed as I was this morning, after seeing the front page of the Herald. It is a DISGUSTING portrayal of the... [more]

Very poor taste
By Adrienne White
I think it was in very poor taste to publish graphic pictures of the student who died Wednesday night in Kenmore Square. Her family and friends a... [more]

Thoughtless
By Linda Forester
You should be embarassed by the front page of your paper this morning. A family lost their daughter and you choose to show her like she didn't me... [more]

Offensive
By Deirdre Roker
I find that picture on cover of the Herald newspaper is totally offensive & insensitive to the readers & particularly the family of that young wo... [more]

Gratuitous
By Richard Labrecque
The pictures of the poor deceased girl on the front page and page four are gratuitous and offensive. The person who made the decision to run the ... [more]

Disturbing
By John Ariola
I cannot believe the front page picture. While it may be what actually happened but a huge front page picture? How can you run such a disturbing ... [more]

Lack of decency
By Frank Shorr
What a disgrace. Imagine if that was your daughter splashed on the front page? Your lack of sense and common decency is appalling. Do you reall... [more]

Hurtful
By Tina Balducci
Are you jokers kidding me with what you have displayed on the front page today? It is a disgrace, and out right lack of morals on the part of all... [more]

No compassion
By Scott Lawton
You should be ashamed of yourselves for publishing those photos of that poor girl. Obviously the editor has no compassion. Was that cover story... [more]

Disgrace
By Shane Walsh
The Front Page of today's paper 10/22/04 is a disgrace. How would you like it if that was your daughter, friend, family member?... [more]

Horrible
By Filomena Gabriel
The front page of this morning's Herald is horrible. How could you show such a graphic picture of such a horrible tragedy? Don't you have child... [more]

No respect
By M. Cabral
I have never been so appalled at a news picture as I was when I saw the front page of today's Herald. The person/people who decided to put that... [more]

Unacceptable
By Sandra Devaney
Nice photo on the front page. How would you like to have your daughter covered in blood dead for all to see. Unacceptable call! ... [more]

Sensationalism
By Jake Howe
How can you run a picture of a dead young woman under a banner that says Go Sox!. Your quest for sensationalism has gone too far. Not only are ... [more]

Poor taste
By John Orpen
As a reader of the Herald for over 20+ years I can't believe how insensitive and poor taste the front page is this morning. As a parent of 2 te... [more]

Inappropriate
By Bob Chakarian
Your photos of the young lady tragically killed during the celebrations on Wed. night were totally inappropriate and and again proved to me the s... [more]

Despicable
By Daniel Twomey
The photos of Ms. Snelgrove is the most despicable reporting I've ever seen. I'd expect that from a tabloid but not a paper I read daily. I've b... [more]

Heinous
By Omar Rizvi
I was absolutely disgusted with your decision to publish a photo of the girl who died during the riots on Wednesday night. Is it really that im... [more]

Distasteful
By Daniel South
That picture is the most disgusting and distasteful thing I have ever seen. You all should be ashamed of yourselves. ... [more]

Too graphic
By Laura Delaney
I strongly object to the graphic photos of the Emerson College student in todays paper. There is no need to exploit the family's tradgedy in this... [more]

Insensitive
By Alan Lamy
I was appalled this morning to pick up today's edition to see the body of the 21 year old Emerson College student lying dead in the street plaste... [more]

Irresponsible
By Scott Kelly
I can't believe you ran the photos of the girl whowas killed during the riots (or celebration, if that's what some people want to call it). Tha... [more]

Disbelief
By Dylan Ade
I could not believe what I saw when I picked up the paper this morning. It is unbelievablie tasteless that you put a color picture of the girl th... [more]

Appalled
By Mary Jo Stanton
Your paper should be ashamed of itself. I'm appalled by the 2 pictures of that young student killed in Boston at Fenway Park. It is a new low. As... [more]

Sad result to Sox victory
By Jeanine Allen
I really enjoy your website, I do not always get a chance to pick up a newspaper. I think it is very sad the way these people acted after the R... [more]

Tough to be a Sox fan in Conn.
By Jeff Westcott
At 12:30 AM Wednesday I was putting up my Red Sox flag in celebration of our fantastic comeback. Three guys cheered then proceeded to storm up my... [more]

http://news.bostonherald.com/eLetters/


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

All of this could have been avoided had she just kept an eye out for the police....

I'd love to see the cause-of-death report from the ME...If it does show that death was caused by head trauma separate from the "eye story", I'll bet it won't see the light of day in the local rags...


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

I have been very upset by this.........................
and by some of the responses on this board...................
:? 
I knew Tori as my daughters friend. I first met her with a group of her friends sitting on my couch when they were around 14. She was a good kid then, as she was now. She did also work between semesters just like many of you did. What I'm saying is it could have been my daughter, or yours, or your sister, or cousin etc.
:shock: 
I salute Kathy O'Toole for her prompt and appropriate statement. I don't think she's throwing anyone under the bus. It looks like she's doing the right thing plain and simple.
Let's realize this as a true tragedy with no winners.....................only someone who lost their life in an apparent accident.


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## pucknut (Sep 3, 2004)

My Heart goes out to the girls family, also I feel for the BPD officers involved, they must be devastated. BUT..... I am totally shocked by the Herald!!! I will never read that sensationalist piece of *#%&amp; paper again! I will go liberal and start reading the Globe.


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## ecpd402 (Sep 18, 2002)

I fully agree with MPD 61. Was anyone there? did anyone see first hand, then don't assume. This was a good student and from what I have seen there were a great deal of students that have said nothing but good things about this student. My sympathy goes out to the students family and the BPD police officers. Lets learn from this tragedy and fix the mistakes if any. Remember if you assume you make a A** out of you and me


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## massirishcop (Apr 3, 2004)

This was a very unfortunate incident, perhaps all these hooligans will take a good long look in the mirror and realize that this type of behavior is unacceptable. My prayers go out to the girls family and to all my brother and sister officers involved.


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## Capt. Kirk (Nov 21, 2002)

I feel really bad for that girls family and the officers involved. 
I think who ever made the decision to print those pics is one sick person. 
This isn't the first time the herald has crossed the line with photos. 
This whole thing just irks the s%*&amp; out of me.
I love the Red Sox and was so happy to see them win but the last place I would have been is Fenway and Kenmore. 
Once again a small percentage of idiots starts acting stupid and this poor girl at the wrong place at the wrong time pays the ultimate price. Lets just hope this doesn't happen again this week. 


My thoughts and prayers are with the Snelgrove family...


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## CTO (Aug 27, 2004)

This is a tragic incident. My prayers go out to the girl's family. 

Unfortunately instead of having a calming effect on the idiots who were rioting, I fear it will only instigate further problems.

CTO

P.S. I cann't stand the Herald anymore, since it began showing the bodies of fallen US Soldiers in Iraq and Afganastan. I am refering to uo to date close up shits of fallen loved ones. No family should have to see that.


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## frapmpd24 (Sep 3, 2004)

I just saw the front page of the Herald. They are absolutly classless. This just proves some elements of the media are truely vultures and will do anything to make a buck and sell their sh%^y paper. They should have some respect for the Snelgrove family and BPD as well, but that seems be beyond their capabilities. God bless to all involved in this situation.


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

How nice. We all post the obligatory PC "sorry for the family but..." preamble to our individual posts, and then state our "personal responsibility" diatribes. Some, myself included, try to lighten the mood with humor, black though it is. Now comes people who knew the 'victim' when she was but a stripling, or as an anonymous 'classmate' to their daughter at Emerson, or as Dick's-son's-brother-who-lived-up-on-the-hill-and-ran-the-roller-derby-and-told-me! What a "good and fine child of GOD, loved her parents and was kind to dumb animals" person the young lady was.

Well, STOP. How many times have we all posted stuff about the death of ALLEGED scumbags whose kinsmen stated "...he was a good kid...made some mistakes...just getting his life turned around..."?

But now it's not some 'scumbag' from Mattapan, the Berry, or Revere. It's a middle class kid. Apparently, it's okay to disregard the law and destroy the personal property of others if your just a "good kid from the middle class". 

I suspect that she was not purposely "shot in the eye" by the cops. I find it odd that anyone can support the commissioner's statement, given the fact that the invest has not yet been completed!

Anyway, next time anyone feels the need to post anything about any subject, don't. Let's just shut the board down and mind our own business, that way no one will be offended. But lets not have fun at anothers expense just because they aren't "ours". :evil:


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## 725 (May 1, 2002)

After reading some of these posts I feel the need to add my 2 cents . . . I agree completely with MPD61. The death of Victoria Snelgrove is a tragedy and would appear to be an accident brought about, in part, by the actions of a group of morons with zero regard for the law and the rights and property of others. However, the responses by some of the members of this board disturbs me. As others have mentioned, none of us know the circumstances of the incident. The BPD Commissioner, however, has taken responsibility for the incident. If a BPD officer shot Victoria in the eye causing her death, then the BPD *IS RESPONSIBLE*, regardless of the circumstances. Further investigation will reveal those circumstances and, hopefully, paint a picture for the public of what police officers were faced with in Kenmore Sq. that night. 
Every member of this board should know that an incident like this generates media scrutiny of the police. Complaining about it does nothing and in some cases makes it worse. Learn to accept it or get out of the profession. Remember that tomorrow, your daughter/son/wife/husband/sister/brother might be in "the wrong place at the wrong time." Granted, with hundreds of police officers telling you to move, you should move. But don't disrespect the memory of a 21 y/o girl by making statements that imply that she was a part of the destructive crowd and that she refused to move when told too, especially when you weren't there.


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## Radio1 (May 19, 2004)

The guns that the BPD are new guns that were bought for the DNC. I talked to one of my instructors at the academy today and he said that these guns can be fired at 50 yards acturately. Which means that these guns have a high velocity to it. Meaning that this girl who was struck, the bullet that released a projectile on impact went through her eye and probably went straight through the brain, which ultimately caused her demise. Those bullets cause a lot of damage if struck anywhere else on the human body. As far as the officer who struck the girl, as long as he was acting under the rules and regulations of their department he is all set. He still might be sued, because any cop can get sued. However, the city of Boston is going to be sued for gazillions of dollars.


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## Dan H (Sep 22, 2004)

The only people responsible for her death are the savages that were taking part in the riot. It's a tragedy for a young girl to die by a pepperball, but the disgusting part is WTF is wrong with all those kids that thought the behavior leading to it was acceptable?

Cops may scrap riot guns: Deadly melee sparks probe into new weapon
By Dave Wedge
Saturday, October 23, 2004

Cops may shelve high-powered crowd control pellet guns during the World Series, possibly taking the ``less-than-lethal'' weapons off the street after police killed an Emerson College junior during Thursday's postgame melee. ........
........"But Emerson College junior Victoria Snelgrove died after a pellet fired into a crowd struck her in the eye during a frantic Lansdowne Street celebration of the Red Sox win over the Yankees early Thursday.""""

"frantic...celebration" What is with this guy downplaying a riot? If you're celebrating something you are proud of how does that include a destructive riot. The problem here were the drunk college kids that think anytime they are in a group of four or more they can do whatever they want and get away with it.
And shame on this police comissioner for not standing behind the officer's training. If their use of force is justified, why would you take responsibility for the death.... just to look all well and PC. BS!!! All that does is make it look like the cop had intent to harm. And now the cops might loose another useful tool, get their image smeared by the media, and have to deal with having a Commissioner with no backbone.


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

I keep hearing, from the media and the members of this board, that the cause of death has been determined to be the impact of the projectile with the former citizen's eye. 

I received a letter about a month ago citing that there were only five (5) pathologists for the entire state. We were instructed to triage our requests for autopsys to those cases that required them.

How is it then, that former citizen Snelgrove gets an autopsy in less than 24 hours?

Unlike the "Commish", I'll wait for the investigation to be completed...and the actual autopsy to be performed... before flushing our brother and sister lawmen down the hopper.


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## FSCPD902 (Sep 28, 2003)

I also could not believe the Herald. It made me sick to my stomach to look at those pictures that should have never made the paper. It was very unfortunate that someone had to die but I am sure that will not stop the crazy punks when the Red Sox win the World Series. No one ever learns and hopefully the Herald smartens up if something like this happens again. They better get their lawyers on the phone.


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## Channy1984 (Jul 24, 2004)

[align=justify:31efd3653a] As far as I'm concerned, If the cop didn't intentionally aim for her face (which you dont according to the FN303 instructions FNHerstal.com) then there's no real people to blame in the situation except for the few that cant handle themselves after drinking and seeing the Sox win who are still responsible for the most part. It's more of a tragic freak accident and no one can really blame anyone "BPD, College Kids, Sox Fans, Victoria's presence, etc" until the investigation is complete. I believe everyone can agree though that those in general that cant celebarate lawfully have the biggest part more than anyone. From what I observed down there, the majority of the crowd acted in line with LE doing a great job overall in keeping order despite the tragic death of Victoria. Hopefully something like this wont happen again.[/align:31efd3653a]


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## Irish Wampanoag (Apr 6, 2003)

First and foremost a innocent life has been taken. A student who went to just celebrate the victory of the Red Sox who beat the impossible odds of coming back from a 3-0 deficit. You members have been criticizing the victim of this unfortunate accident never the less Ms Snellgrove lost her life and her family is left to grieve. To say she should not have been there is absurd. According to reports Ms. Snellgrove parked her MV in a garage on Landsdown street and celebrated the victory in a bar to come out to find she was unable to move her car do to the 60,000 people celebrating in the street. So she waited, apparently it was her fault she could not get her car and leave the area. 
Members talk about her family who will ambulance chase I tend to think that the family would prefer to have their daughter alive don't you. If this was your daughter you would want questions answered and definitely responsiblity addressed. I am guessing the BPD and the City of Boston will be writing a large check with many many zeros on it. My heart goes out to family and friend of Ms. Snellgrove.


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## Cadet101 (Nov 6, 2002)

Irish Wampanoag - I couldn't agree with you more. 

BPD along with other agencies did not have the manpower to overcome a crowd of 60,000 plus. I don't all blame BPD officers, I would blame the mayor along with BPD commissioner for not having enough manpower to avoid a tragic innocent. Then after this tragic event happened you see the commissioner on the news say that these fans should have acted in good behavior and not like idiots. She continues saying that this is not an excuse to flip cars and start destroying the city. Nice speech commissioner, too bad that nobody listens and you get this behavior. If everyone listened and acted like human beings and followed the law, there would be no need for you. She placed these officers at risk, which lead to them firing a weapon randomly into the crowd. The girl did not kill her self from falling off a light pole or other object. That would be a different story. When I heard BPD was shooting at the kids who were climbing Fenway park, I couldn't believe it. They are lucky no one else died as a result from shooting them and risking them fall. 

So did BPD do a good job? yes, but at the cost of a young girls life? Nobody should have lost there life by BPD at least. They are there to prevent injury and destruction. Stick with the tear gas and oc to disburst the crowds. I guess this new commissioner didn't learn her lesson from last years tragic innocent. She wasn't in charge then but she got the job because the acting commissioner who was in charge then didn't get the job done by not having enough police. No amount of money will ever replace this girls life. I feel for the family and hope that nothing like this happens again throughout this world series.


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

The unfortunate citizen was "in-the-mix". I seriously doubt any cop purposely aimed at her eye...wait for the investigation to be completed. I'd suggest that there is video evidence, etc, that needs to be examined. 

I could care less if the citizen was a pillar of the community or not. The fact is that she was present where the breaking of laws was occurring. CLUE: The police show up, time to leave.

Let the investigation progress, and SHUT-UP! We'll get to the bottom of it!

Lastly, maybe MSP riot guys should have been called...they can put 500+ riot cops into your city in an hour. But that's BPD's call...

So stop your hand wringing...you may have known her as the girl next door, but I doubt she is blameless in this incident (tragic as it was...if you play with fire, you get burned.).


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

dcs2244 @ 23 Oct 2004 19:41 said:


> *wait for the investigation to be completed*.
> :?
> I could care less if the citizen was a pillar of the community or not. The fact is that she was present where the breaking of laws was occurring. CLUE: The police show up, time to leave.
> :shock:
> ...


Jeezus! Are you serious? Maybe you had better listen to your own advice. Please this is just not fair and objective at all.
:uc:


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## Guest (Oct 24, 2004)

dcs2244 @ Thu 21 Oct said:


> *I'm sure her ETOH was 0.00... :? *
> 
> *Condolences to the family...but remember, you raised her and she is a reflection of your familial values...*
> 
> ...


Dude!
:shock: 
WTF? are you really that pissed off enough to say such garbage? Opinions are O.K. but don't be so judgemental that you sound like a child. 
:x


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## Cadet101 (Nov 6, 2002)

dcs2244 Wrote:


> I could care less if the citizen was a pillar of the community or not. The fact is that she was present where the breaking of laws was occurring. CLUE: The police show up, time to leave


There were thousands of innocent people around at the time breaking of the laws took place. Does that make it was ok for the police to open fire randomly on everyone in that area?



> Lastly, maybe MSP riot guys should have been called...they can put 500+ riot cops into your city in an hour. But that's BPD's call...


Why not just bring in the National Guard. . .



> So stop your hand wringing...you may have known her as the girl next door, but I doubt she is blameless in this incident (tragic as it was...if you play with fire, you get burned.).


Regardless if she was blameless or not, she should still be alive today.

7 news and a few other stations are showing video of the incident as BPD is firing randomly into the crowd. They were using the weapon improperly, and as a result you end up with this tragic death. As an officer you are trained in dealing with the use of weapons and when and how to use them properly. One kid I saw was begging for help while covered in blood as BPD continued to fire at him. All I can think of being the only exception, is that the officers were backed up into a corner and no choice but to fire randomly in defense from getting injured. This again points back to not having enough officers.


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

I don't recall anyone posting in this thread saying that Miss Snelgrove deserved to die because she was present at the insurrection. I may be judgemental, but I would be just as critical of my own kinsmen were they involved in such a fracas.

Maybe my opinion is not "fair and objective". But neither are the opinions of those who are painting Miss Snelgrove as being 'above the fray', a good student and person, etc. I have been in these situations many times and the majority of participants are out of control.

If Miss Snelgrove was a teetotaler, I will withdraw the ETOH comment. But I doubt that is the case. I await the tox screen and autopsy with interest.

As far as BPD firing 'randomly' into the crowd...how do you know that was the rule and not the exception? How many times do we take the media to task for distorting the truth and telling one side or filming events to portray the police as brutal thugs? But, no, now that a member of our socio-economic group is involved, we hold the media up as a paragon of virtue and soothsaying.

Lastly, there is another version of events making the rounds that involves a fall and head trauma. Again, before we condemn/defend, lets wait for the invest to be completed and avoid the mea culpa of Commissioner O'Toole.


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## MarkBoston (Aug 28, 2003)

*First off I'm not dead.*

*Second...*"Lastly, maybe MSP riot guys should have been called...they can put 500+ riot cops into your city in an hour. But that's BPD's call..." *The MSP can keep their 500+ riot troopers out of Boston. If we want help with traffic enforcement we'll call you.*

*Third...Commissioner Martha Stewart as I said before she does not belong here and now is tossing the whole department under the "bus". Just for the sake of saving her own job. O'Toole you make me sick...the sooner you depart BPD the better the department will be.

Fourth...I have already heard of several citizens getting in BPD Officers faces about this incident...Heaven help the first idiot who talks to me in a disorderly manner.

Finally...Oh yes the poor girl...."gee whiz riot police and an unruly mob, I think I'll hang out for a while." That will piss some people off here but just think&#8230;would you tell your child to hang around in this situation? I feel that if you stick around then the chance of getting hurt increases greatly. So sorry but if you turned and left the area you would still be around to pick up your car the next day.
*


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

I knew you would have to weigh in on this topic! I didn't mean to intimate that BPD required the help of the MSP...just that overwhelming numbers may have intimidated the "misunderstood rudents" and avoided the tragedy...

But then, we can ask "what if?" questions all day long....for those of you following the discussion: What if your great aunt had testicles...would she be your great uncle?

I reckon that's how pertinent 'what if' questions are.

Think about it!


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## John J (Jul 18, 2002)

dcs2244 @ 21 Oct 2004 23:41 said:


> I guess the sage advise "...don't get in front of a bullet..." would apply here. I was, as most of you were (or are) a "college rudent". I don't know about you, but going to school full-time and working a couple of jobs didn't leave much time for "college hijinks"!
> 
> I'm sure her ETOH was 0.00... :?
> 
> ...


So are you saying that is is her fault that she got shot in the eye? Or are you blaming her family for how they raised her?



ecpd402 @ 22 Oct 2004 20:17 said:


> I fully agree with MPD 61. Was anyone there? did anyone see first hand, then don't assume. This was a good student and from what I have seen there were a great deal of students that have said nothing but good things about this student. My sympathy goes out to the students family and the BPD police officers. Lets learn from this tragedy and fix the mistakes if any. Remember if you assume you make a A** out of you and me


Well said ecpd402, it seems the people on this board are too quick to blame the girl for her own death.



dcs2244 @ 24 Oct 2004 00:41 said:


> I could care less if the citizen was a pillar of the community or not. The fact is that she was present where the breaking of laws was occurring. CLUE: The police show up, time to leave.
> .


Are you serious, I think you need to consider a career change.



MarkBoston @ 24 Oct 2004 22:25 said:


> The MSP can keep their 500+ riot troopers out of Boston. If we want help with traffic enforcement we'll call you.[/b]


You BPD guys really think that you are the "premier" law enforcement agency in the land. I have heard more BPD guys bitch,piss, and moan about them being the best and how they are the only real PD in the city. I've got news for you, there are other law enforcement agencies in Boston, you may not like it but too friggen bad. Boston is the only city in the U.S. that can't co-exist peacefully with other L.E. Agencies.



MarkBoston @ 24 Oct 2004 22:25 said:


> *
> Fourth...I have already heard of several citizens getting in BPD Officers faces about this incident...Heaven help the first idiot who talks to me in a disorderly manner.
> *


*

This sounds like another BPD brutality law suit waiting to happen.*


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## Ranger2 (Aug 13, 2004)

Does anyone else think that MarkBoston is a lawsuit waiting to happen. ??? I understand respect for the law and LEO's are to enforce, *PROTECT*, and serve the public... or are my thoughts misconstrued on public safety... I find it very unfortunate that I live in the same city that has police officers as bold as this one. Sooo what if Nemlec and MSP swat made a presence. More police presence dampers that possbility of the unfortunate circumstances that took place last week. It is obvious, the BPD failed to make a strong enough presence the first time.


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

I suspect Mark is a good guy/good cop who's just getting cynical in his older years. 
He's probably a little more territorial than some also.............but he can be my wingman anytime
:lol:


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## MarkBoston (Aug 28, 2003)

"You BPD guys really think that you are the "premier" law enforcement agency in the land. I have heard more BPD guys bitch, piss, and moan about them being the best and how they are the only real PD in the city. I've got news for you, there are other law enforcement agencies in Boston, you may not like it but too friggen bad. Boston is the only city in the U.S. that can't co-exist peacefully with other L.E. Agencies."

*Where did you get your information about all the other major cities that have a peacefully co-existence with other federal, state, county, and campus law enforcement agencies? Could it be you have spent many years trying to get on a major city police department? *

*"Premier Law Enforcement agency in the land" Damn right we are. If you were proud of where you worked you would feel the same way. MSP Troopers feel the same way; other officers from other agencies feel the same way with their departments. It is called pride, you get it, if and when you reach your "dream" department and not some "oh well, I'll settle for this" job.*

*"Other law enforcement agencies in Boston"&#8230;yes I have heard that rumor also&#8230;but the only true POLICE agency which handles everything everywhere in the City of Boston is Boston Police Department.*

"This sounds like another BPD brutality law suit waiting to happen."

*Junior, I don't think so. I know how to make a proper arrest and I know the difference between free speech and being disorderly.*

"Does anyone else think that MarkBoston is a lawsuit waiting to happen. ??? I understand respect for the law and LEO's are to enforce, PROTECT, and serve the public... or are my thoughts misconstrued on public safety... I find it very unfortunate that I live in the same city that has police officers as bold as this one. Sooo what if Nemlec and MSP swat made a presence. More police presence dampers that possbility of the unfortunate circumstances that took place last week. It is obvious, the BPD failed to make a strong enough presence the first time."

*Another country heard from&#8230;let me explain something to you Monday morning quarterbacks. Game 2 we had around 100 DOC officers for transport of prisoners and we had less then 10 arrests.

If this department needs advice on how to deploy its manpower I seriously doubt we'll be calling you.

Yes, I am BOLD. Do you even know what the word means? Bold means fearless before danger. What are you when push comes to shove?
*

Posted Mon Oct 25, 2004 2:43 pm:



mpd61 @ Mon Oct 25 said:


> I suspect Mark is a good guy/good cop who's just getting cynical in his older years.
> He's probably a little more territorial than some also.............but he can be my wingman anytime
> :lol:


*Finally a member of "Command Staff" who agrees with me. Thank You.*


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## John J (Jul 18, 2002)

MarkBoston @ 25 Oct 2004 19:41 said:


> "Premier Law Enforcement agency in the land" Damn right we are. .


*I have dealt with too many BPD officers that think that their shit dosen't stink because they are BPD. I would move out of MA before I took a job with the BPD.*



MarkBoston @ 25 Oct 2004 19:41 said:


> "Other law enforcement agencies in Boston"&#8230;yes I have heard that rumor also&#8230;but the only true POLICE agency which handles everything everywhere in the City of Boston is Boston Police Department.


*That is of course if you can get someone to respond in under 3 hours.*


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## MarkBoston (Aug 28, 2003)

"I would move out of MA before I took a job with the BPD."
*Based upon what I hear about you on this board I don't think you'll ever have to move.*

"That is of course if you can get someone to respond in under 3 hours."
*As I have stated before you get paid to baby sit the college kids. If you can't handle them then have your Dean of Whatever call the detail office. We'll keep the kids in line for you at the detail rate. Otherwise we have better things to do then slap their little hands and/or call their mommies.*


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## Ranger2 (Aug 13, 2004)

MarkBoston ... how long have you been on the force? What is your rank?
I know plenty of BPD officers who do not have your attitude whatsoever. I agree with you that you are bold.. -- You don't hesitate to break the rules or propriety, your very forward in your comments concerning any and all other law enforcement agencies... and your quite frankly imprudent. Granted we all have our short comings.... but let me remind you.. you are a BPD officer because of a civil service exam... nothing more. You happen to be one of the ones choosen off the list to move forward. Congratulations.. Don't make it your goal in life to hamper on other depts. Like I said earlier. BPD failed to have enough police presence therefore more presence was needed. 

Your talk is rash.. TPF Unit was present for both games of the series. Yet you failed to mention a dislike to them??


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## MarkBoston (Aug 28, 2003)

Ranger2 @ Mon Oct 25 said:


> MarkBoston ... how long have you been on the force? What is your rank?
> I know plenty of BPD officers who do not have your attitude whatsoever. I agree with you that you are bold.. -- You don't hesitate to break the rules or propriety, your very forward in your comments concerning any and all other law enforcement agencies... and your quite frankly imprudent. Granted we all have our short comings.... but let me remind you.. you are a BPD officer because of a civil service exam... nothing more. You happen to be one of the ones choosen off the list to move forward. Congratulations.. Don't make it your goal in life to hamper on other depts. Like I said earlier. BPD failed to have enough police presence therefore more presence was needed.
> 
> Your talk is rash.. TPF Unit was present for both games of the series. Yet you failed to mention a dislike to them??


*None of your business and guess what also none of your business. But here is a hint look at the hat.

How can you say I break the rules? You do not even know me or anything about me. So how can you say I lack discretion?

I have no problems at all with any other law enforcement departments who can generally do their job without calling us for the most petty of BS. Very rarely does BPD have to answer the call for problems with the major campuses in the city. They are highly trained professional law enforcement officers who when they call BPD does come running because we know our brothers/sisters officers have a serious need. But if you are from some of these smaller half assed trained public safety departments the little colleges have. We don't have time for the kids who will not listen to you because even they know you have no powers or recourse besides "I'm telling the dean on you"

Like I said before when we start taking advice from you on manpower deployments then I know it's time to retire.
*


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## John J (Jul 18, 2002)

MarkBoston @ 25 Oct 2004 19:41 said:


> Premier Law Enforcement agency in the land" Damn right we are.
> 
> "Other law enforcement agencies in Boston"&#8230;yes I have heard that rumor also&#8230;but the only true POLICE agency which handles everything everywhere in the City of Boston is Boston Police Department.


*You are contradicting yourself. Do you know what "Contradicting" means?*

*One minute you make statements like the ones quoted above and the next minute you say you have no problem with other agencies, I think you need to make up your mind. You are jumping back and fourth more than John Kerry. 
*



MarkBoston @ 25 Oct 2004 20:41 said:


> *I have no problems at all with any other law enforcement departments *who can generally do their job without calling us for the most petty of BS. Very rarely does BPD have to answer the call for problems with the major campuses in the city. *They are highly trained professional law enforcement officers who when they call BPD does come running because we know our brothers/sisters officers have a serious need*.





MarkBoston @ 25 Oct 2004 19:41 said:


> But if you are from some of these smaller half assed trained public safety departments the little colleges have. We don't have time for the kids who will not listen to you because even they know you have no powers or recourse besides "I'm telling the dean on you"


Just because someone works for a small campus, you won't come to their aid? Small campuses still wear the uniform. I hope someday you need back up and the small college officer nearby just drives by and waves.



MarkBoston @ 25 Oct 2004 20:41 said:


> I know it's time to retire.


*Maybe it is time.*


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## MarkBoston (Aug 28, 2003)

*I must remember what my old FTO said many years ago. "Don't argue with the idiot's just lock them up or drive away."

So in closing, just sit behind your desk at the front door of the small college you work for. Unarmed, untrained, and ignored by all except those who need a door open.

I'll do my job and make six figures a year. You...well the Assistant Dean of Whatever needs his door unlocked so hop to it.*


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

John J @ Mon 25 Oct said:


> So are you saying that is is her fault that she got shot in the eye? Or are you blaming her family for how they raised her?
> 
> *No, that is what you are saying. People act according to their value systems...which can be short circuited by the consumption of alcohol beverages...*
> 
> ...


After you have completed your next two and one half lifetimes, I may allow you to offer me career counseling, kid. Once again, When the police arrive, it's time to get out of Dodge, or Boston, as the case may be.

It's called common sense, which according to Mark Twain, isn't very common!

Pay attention: the concepts increase in complexity as we go along...


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## mkpnt (Sep 8, 2004)

MarkBoston @ Mon Oct 25 said:


> *I must remember what my old FTO said many years ago. "Don't argue with the idiot's just lock them up or drive away."
> 
> So in closing, just sit behind your desk at the front door of the small college you work for. Unarmed, untrained, and ignored by all except those who need a door open.
> 
> I'll do my job and make six figures a year. You...well the Assistant Dean of Whatever needs his door unlocked so hop to it.*


That's pretty bold talk for someone who's union endorsed John Kerry. If he gets elected you'll be lucky if you still have firearms.


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## John J (Jul 18, 2002)

mkpnt @ 25 Oct 2004 23:11 said:


> *That's pretty bold talk for someone who's union endorsed John Kerry. If he gets elected you'll be lucky if you still have firearms.*


*

:L: they will be like London running around with their little clubs. :L:

Posted 25 Oct 2004 23:17:



MarkBoston @ 25 Oct 2004 22:36 said:



I must remember what my old FTO said many years ago. "Don't argue with the idiot's just lock them up or drive away."

So in closing, just sit behind your desk at the front door of the small college you work for. Unarmed, untrained, and ignored by all except those who need a door open.

I'll do my job and make six figures a year. You...well the Assistant Dean of Whatever needs his door unlocked so hop to it.

Click to expand...

You can hop to kissing my ass. :FM:*


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## MarkBoston (Aug 28, 2003)

*You got something against the London Police or do you just hate anyone who is a real cop? i.e. does not sit behind a desk or checking in summer guests and carrying their bags or keep parking spaces open, but does law enforcement work.*

*You spelled kicking wrong but that's OK Junior "G" man brains are not a requirement at your job.*


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## John J (Jul 18, 2002)

MarkBoston @ 25 Oct 2004 23:26 said:


> *You got something against the London Police or do you just hate anyone who is a real cop? i.e. does not sit behind a desk or checking in summer guests and carrying their bags or keep parking spaces open, but does law enforcement work.*


Hey Mark reread the end of my last post. I am done with you.

Posted 25 Oct 2004 23:47:

Mark,

You are living proof that you do not need a brain to work for BPD, and by the way as long as you pay the bill anyone can get a Masters from Anna Marie college. :roll:


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

Since I have earned a degree from Anna Maria, two in fact, I guess I must be another graduate of a 'diploma mill'. Never mind the courses I passed at the RIT and MIT diploma mills...

When you have earned your GED, John J, c'mon back and talk.

I'll be more than happy to 'meet you in the garage' and discuss our differences...

But I still get 30%...loser.

Hey, but we are wicked t: here: discipline: SAY IT! Let's get back on track, or start a new thread...let's not have to lock this because we can't stay "on-topic"...perhaps we should leave this topic open pending the results of the investigation...and open a 'flame' topic elsewhere.


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## mkpnt (Sep 8, 2004)

I'll be more than happy to 'meet you in the garage' and discuss our differences...

*Why don't you meet him at 3:00 out by the schoolyard *

:A:


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## John J (Jul 18, 2002)

dcs2244 @ 26 Oct 2004 00:49 said:


> Since I have earned a degree from Anna Maria, two in fact, I guess I must be another graduate of a 'diploma mill'. Never mind the courses I passed at the RIT and MIT diploma mills...
> 
> When you have earned your GED, John J, c'mon back and talk.
> 
> ...


What are we in JR high school? Do you want to meet by the bike rack afterschool? 
As far as being t: why don't we just end this foolishness?


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## Officer Dunngeon (Aug 16, 2002)

Agreed. This topic has served it's purpose. No more comments from the Mass Highway department communications staff are needed.


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