# home defense law



## nickgakis (Dec 5, 2007)

i had a question so figured i would ask cops. i am a homeowner and licensed to carry. if someone breaks into my house do i have the right to shoot them? even if they are unarmed and are just trying to steal something? thanks


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## Guest (Oct 12, 2009)

Ask your homeowners insurance?

I know how I would handle a home defense scenario, but I doubt anyone of us can answer that for you. As for the legality of it, what are you concerned about? Civil or Legal consequences? You can bet your house that there will be civil issues no matter how justified you are.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

For the record, I am not a lawyer and *this is not legal advice*. Rely on this at your own peril, and you should really be consulting counsel with such a lofty question. You should have gone over this in your firearms safety course.

There is no clear-cut answer to this question. Every rule has and exception to the exception. Under no circumstances can anyone use deadly force to protect property; it can only be used to prevent loss of life or extreme bodily harm (though what constitutes the latter is often debatable). In one's home, they have no "duty to retreat" under the Massachusetts "Castle law": M.G.L. - Chapter 278, Section 8a

Note Massachusetts's law is not nearly as potent as other states as it only allows a person to raise the the fact that someone was in the four walls of their home as a _defense_ to CRIMINAL proceedings against them--it is not a bar to prosecution.

Recent case law defined this statute to only apply within the four walls of the home. Shooting an intruder, on say, the front porch would not apply.

Further Masscops reading: http://www.masscops.com/forums/ask-cop/69969-mgl-chapter-278-section-8a.html

On the civil side, have fun...you're getting sued no matter what you do and no matter how justifiable it may be.


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

nickgakis said:


> i had a question so figured i would ask cops. i am a homeowner and licensed to carry. if someone breaks into my house do i have the right to shoot them? even if they are unarmed and are just trying to steal something? thanks


Im pretty sure they cover that in the course you take in order to get a license. Short answer: no.

While I can see why you might find it logical to "Ask-a-cop", the cop is going to be the guy (or lady) pointing his gun at you when he responds to a shots fired call from your residence. He will have no say whether you get prosecuted or not. You'd better consult a lawyer, or better yet...your local DA. 
In Texas, you might get away with it, in NH you might get sued, in MA you will sure as shit find your ass in jail if you shoot someone "even if they are unarmed and are just trying to steal something?" All the more so when they do a forensic dump on your computer and find dumb questions like this....establishing intent. You'd better read up on the laws and liabilities of posessing a firearm, and better yet take one of Massad Ayoob's courses in NH on home defense. The threshold to take a life is extremely high in this state, and you might not find it worth the effort to shoot someone just to protect your flatscreen. Protecting your life, or that of your loved ones, is a greatly different story however.
LTC in MA, way back when, used to be issued for the "Protection of life and property" now they are issued for "all lawful purposes." Subtle changes in wording can mean dramatic differences of protection or lack thereof from the law.

Questions like this lead me to believe you didn't do your homework before applying for a permit and buying a gun.



nickgakis said:


> im thinking about applying for a lateral to framingham. does anybody work for or know anything about that dept? how big is it? how much time off do you get, for instance *in my dept*. you get 12 personal hours every month. what are the promotion opportunities like, do they run on the 100% senority rule. Any help would be appriciated. thanks


Quick question........which dept do you work in, that you don't know about the appropriate use of lethal force?


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Hush said:


> Quick question........which dept do you work in, that you don't know about the appropriate use of lethal force?


Oh snap.


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## Goose (Dec 1, 2004)

Hush said:


> LTC in MA, way back when, used to be issued for the "Protection of life and property" now they are issued for "all lawful purposes."


Really? I don't have my LTC in front of me, but what does the line saying "Restrictions:" on yours say? ;-)


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

PM sent



frank said:


> Really? I don't have my LTC in front of me, but what does the line saying "Restrictions:" on yours say? ;-)


I guess the most current incarnation of the Class A says 
Restrictions: NONE

Ive seen older ones over the years that go from "Protection of Life and Property" to "Protection of Life" to "All Lawful Purposes", seemingly the subtle erosion of one's protection from prosecution.


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## Johnny Law (Aug 8, 2008)

What would a reasonable person do? I thought I saw a weapon, a glint of steel, he said he was going to kill me. I'm never going to gig a homeowner, but I don't make that decision, the DA's office does.


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## Rooster Cogburn (Mar 23, 2009)

You’re a licensed home owner who has the intruder capture with you hand gun. The wife calls 911 and the police arrive. What is the protocol? How does the homeowner communicate that he is the not the intruder? What are the risks to the homeowner?


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## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

Hush said:


> PM sent
> 
> I guess the most current incarnation of the Class A says
> Restrictions: NONE
> ...


Restrictions: Sport and Target

Yayyyyy Worcester!!


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## Deuce (Sep 27, 2003)

Some mope B&E's my house with me, or especially my family in it, they ain't making it out alive.....


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## midwatch (Jan 5, 2007)

Deuce said:


> Some mope B&E's my house with me, or especially my family in it, they ain't making it out alive.....


And its easy enough to dispose of a body in Worcester, so the police will never find out. Therefore, no problems with legal or civil liability. Win-win!


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## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

Wolfman said:


> If you shoot a guy in the back as he's leaving your house with your PS3, better start stretching your colon now.


I agree with Wolfman here. You COULD hit the PS3... and I'm not sure Sony warranties structural damage caused by the impact of ammunition.


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

Wolfman said:


> If you shoot a guy in the back as he's leaving your house with your PS3, better start stretching your colon now.


I usually don't like defense attorneys but....

I know of one that pulled off a masterpiece based on the horrible, and violent, area that his client lived in.

Yes, he shot him in the back.


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## jettsixx (Dec 10, 2005)

Deuce said:


> Some mope B&E's my house with me, or especially my family in it, they ain't making it out alive.....


+1 If my five dogs dont use them as a chew toy,they will die of high velocity lead poisoning.


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## USMCTrooper (Oct 23, 2003)

Now suppose my house is built for alarm & defense. First, the silent alarm goes off, activating the infrared detectors along the yard perimeter and notifying my local PD. Simultaneously, the intruder is mauled mercilessly by my shepherd because in the heat of it all I forget the proper release command in German. Then, as they hobble out the door dragging whats left of their limbs there is an ear splitting <ZING> as the ball bearings from a Gulf War era claymore fly through the air.

Will I be sued???


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## Guest (Oct 13, 2009)

USMCTrooper said:


> Now suppose my house is built for alarm & defense. First, the silent alarm goes off, activating the infrared detectors along the yard perimeter and notifying my local PD. Simultaneously, the intruder is mauled mercilessly by my shepherd because in the heat of it all I forget the proper release command in German. Then, as they hobble out the door dragging whats left of their limbs there is an ear splitting <ZING> as the ball bearings from a Gulf War era claymore fly through the air.
> 
> Will I be sued???


If there was an internet version of the dramatic slow clap... I would start it now. :rock:


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## midwatch (Jan 5, 2007)

Say hypothetically I shoot a burglar in the back and paralyze him, but he has really strong arms and continues to drag himself away. Also, he is still dragging my 50" flatscreen. And since I've already shot him once and he didn't die, I figure he must be immune so I jump in my truck and run him over.

Will I get sued, or do I just need to fill out an accident report?


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## Sam1974 (Apr 8, 2009)

i would say my 100 + pound shepherd would be a deterent.. just hear him bark and you'll run.. his bark sets off the smoke detector believe it or not..lol

so let's say someone breaks into my house.. my shepherd eats him alive while my greyhound prances around him and barks orders at my shepherd to tear the person apart and my pom is eating his toes and fingers... even though i have "dog on premise" signs all over the house, in clear view of the doors/windows and property line.. oh and not to mention i am pounding the guy with a baseball bat in the head as he is chewed apart..... can i still be sued?

i'd hate to be the one to clean that up.. i'd need a couple hundred boxes of shamWOWs.... lol


You can DEFINITELY be sued if you post "beware of dog" signs up in your house. It tells the world you possess a dangerous dog. IF your dog bites or mauls someone who even enters your house for harmful purposes, you are legally responsible for any and all damage caused by that intruder. My lawyer told me that but told me to opt for "dog on premises" signs instead.. that way you're only announcing you have a dog... Legally speaking, you can also get your ass handed to you if your dog(s) are not licensed in the town you live in..


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## Endo (Mar 29, 2009)

Having a gun in the house is a huge responsibility. First and foremost you should have a plan. I have one with my family. If the alarm goes off in the middle of the night I will grab my 12g and lay at the top of the stairs. My wife will grab the 9mm (she has a class A unrestricted so she is legal), the phone, and the kids and get in the closet that is in the bedroom away from the sight line of the stairs. Its important to have a plan because the last thing you want are kids running out of their rooms and a screaming wife while you have a loaded gun in your hands half asleep trying to figure out whats going on. Maybe it sounds a bit overboard but I'd rather be safe than sorry. I want to know exactly where they all are and that they are safe.

I have a house alarm and a dog. If neither of those two deter someone and they soldier on and continue up my stairs to the bedrooms they will be met with the wrong end of my HD shotgun. 

Now, if they do not come near the stairs that lead to the bedrooms I would not shoot or hunt. Its not worth it, let them take my TV. A $2000 TV will cost me 100x that amount in a civil suit and I would definitely be sued. It could still cost me a fortune even if I win. I'll just lay down at the top of my stairs and wait for help to arrive while keeping my family behind me in a closet where they are safe.

I don't agree with the law but I am still obligated to follow it or pay the price. If someone breaks in and is rummaging through my basement and I go down there and shoot an unarmed burglar, I am in deep sheet. However, if they are unarmed but make an advance up to my second floor where I have no means of retreat and I do not know their intentions, I believe that even in MA I would not be charged.

The above is just my opinion so take it for whats its worth.....nothing! I am a huge supporter of the 2nd amendment but I think that in some (dare I say most) cases people feel it gives them authority but it does not. Do not fall into the trap of thinking that way. It is a defensive tool when your life or the lives of your family are in danger and that's it!


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## Goose (Dec 1, 2004)

midwatch said:


> Say hypothetically I shoot a burglar in the back and paralyze him, but he has really strong arms and continues to drag himself away. Also, he is still dragging my 50" flatscreen. And since I've already shot him once and he didn't die, I figure he must be immune so I jump in my truck and run him over.
> 
> Will I get sued, or do I just need to fill out an accident report?


Just be careful...you don't want to break your flat screen when you run him over!



Sam1974 said:


> You can DEFINITELY be sued if you post "beware of dog" signs up in your house. It tells the world you possess a dangerous dog.


On that note, does anyone know where I can get a "Danger: Land Mines" sign? I need something humorous for the backyard with all the dog poop, and if it keeps people out of the back yard, so be it. ;-)


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## midwatch (Jan 5, 2007)

frank said:


> Just be careful...you don't want to break your flat screen when you run him over!


I thought about that, so I would just go slow and steady and squish his head instead of trying to run over center mass.


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

frank said:


> On that note, does anyone know where I can get a "Danger: Land Mines" sign? I need something humorous for the backyard with all the dog poop, and if it keeps people out of the back yard, so be it. ;-)


http://www.reenactor.net/graefcs/pdfs/Mine_flags.pdf

And along those lines, I wonder if anyone makes a Claymore doormat...

M18A1 APERS
FRONT TOWARDS ENEMY


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## F-Bobby (Oct 13, 2009)

just to add something to this as another pair of circumstantial/hypothetical questions. 

If someone does break into my house with a weapon and my LTC is Restricted target and competition and I need to use it against them because they are threatening me or my family. Will I get in deep in manure?
Also if someone breaks into my house unarmed (and possibly on mind altering substances for the next part) and I have them at gunpoint and they rush me thinking either I won't shoot them or the gun isn't real. And I do shoot them. Is that Ok even though they are unarmed?

I know you guys can't give me all the legal ramifications on this, I'm more looking for if anyone has heard stories of this, Especially the first instance which I'm sure has happened.


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## Endo (Mar 29, 2009)

There is no black and white legal answer but ask yourself 2 questions, did I have no means of retreat and did I fear that my life was in danger. Those are the two best guidelines. Its a big gray area.


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## Sentinel (Sep 29, 2009)

Taken from urban dictionary:

Massachusetts Self-Defense

Locking yourself in the bathroom and asking an intruder to please take what he wants and then leave your house.

Because people in Massachusetts are not allowed to defend their life, liberty, or property. This is based on the liberal notions that if we reason politely with criminals they will surely not harm us, and that defending ourselves lowers us to the level of the criminal. (Since liberals do not believe in levels of humanity, this is difficult to comprehend.)

Break into my house? Two in the ten ring... every time. Rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


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## BrickCop (Dec 23, 2004)

Did you hear about the Arizona homeowner who got lit up by the police after he wrested the gun away from the intruder? Shot 6x but survived.


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

F-Bobby said:


> just to add something to this as another pair of circumstantial/hypothetical questions.
> 
> If someone does break into my house with a weapon and my LTC is Restricted target and competition and I need to use it against them because they are threatening me or my family. Will I get in deep in manure?
> Also if someone breaks into my house unarmed (and possibly on mind altering substances for the next part) and I have them at gunpoint and they rush me thinking either I won't shoot them or the gun isn't real. And I do shoot them. Is that Ok even though they are unarmed?
> ...


Stick the gun out and tell him to take it. When he grabs for it, the thing goes off accidently.

End of story.


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## F-Bobby (Oct 13, 2009)

94c said:


> Stick the gun out and tell him to take it. When he grabs for it, the thing goes off accidently.
> 
> End of story.


LOL. I'm totally gonna do that. I'll act all scared and shakey and happen to fire the gun 5 or 6 times. Sorry, my hand slipped. 5 or 6 times....


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

F-Bobby said:


> LOL. I'm totally gonna do that. I'll act all scared and shakey and happen to fire the gun 5 or 6 times. Sorry, my hand slipped. 5 or 6 times....


You just screwed yourself...


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## F-Bobby (Oct 13, 2009)

94c said:


> You just screwed yourself...


The LOL means I'm not seriously going to do that. To tell ya the truth I'm not sure what I would do. I haven't really had a reason to think about it until recently.


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## GuyS (Dec 31, 2006)

Oh, yell yeah! Blast away.


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## justanotherparatrooper (Aug 27, 2006)

F-Bobby said:


> LOL. I'm totally gonna do that. I'll act all scared and shakey and happen to fire the gun 5 or 6 times. Sorry, my hand slipped. 5 or 6 times....


 Youre an idiot, I hope you never have to shoot another human being but if you do you are fucked! This quote will somehow surface and you'll be raped at both the criminal and civil trial. Why do people make completely moronic statements( even if being sarcastic) online? dont answer, it was a redundan question


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## F-Bobby (Oct 13, 2009)

justanotherparatrooper said:


> Youre an idiot, I hope you never have to shoot another human being but if you do you are fucked! This quote will somehow surface and you'll be raped at both the criminal and civil trial. Why do people make completely moronic statements( even if being sarcastic) online? dont answer, it was a redundan question


sorry but if that post is gonna be the only thing taken into account if infact i do ever need to shoot someone who is breaking into my house and threatening my life or my families lives, then i guess my faith in the justice system and due process has been sadly misplaced. I honestly hope I never do have to shoot anyone. But if I do, the fact that I posted something like that in complete jest on a message board is NOT going to cross my mind.


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## 7costanza (Aug 29, 2006)

> faith in the justice system


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