# CQB/Urban Combat Airsoft Training, Sat 6/6/09 No. Smithfield, RI (fully indoors)



## The Jesters

FYI, this is an Airsoft training event and the tactics and instruction are based on use for Airsoft. Although many can be utilized in a real steel environment, many cannot (an airsoft round cannot go through many types of cover that a real projectile can, as well as in Airsoft there is respawn and medic rules, so some tactics taught take this into considerations and are more aggressive than what you would want to be in real life). Please take this into consideration if you plan on attending this course.









*CQB/Urban Combat Training I*

This is our FIRST OPEN EVENT at our 
*NEW FULLY INDOOR*
*CQB FACILITY*

Date: Sat. June 6th, 2009
Location: North Smithfield, RI
Cost: $40 (includes Manual)
Limit: 25 participants per session
Session I: 10 AM - 5 PM
Session II: 2 PM - 9 PM










New to CQB and Urban combat and need to get up to par? Need a refresher to knock off the rust of winter? This course is just what you are looking for. We'll cover the basics of CQB/Urban combat in the classroom and then move to dry and live fire practical drills to give you the strong foundation that will take your skills to the next level.

Registration: Begins at Op: Baghdad 5/17/09
$20 Non-Refundable (for Manual costs)
1st come, 1st serve, no spots reserved. 
Please include your Name, Call Sign, Team, and DOB

Day of Training: Registration & Chrono begins One Hour before Start Time:
Breaks given by instructors including lunch/dinner break.
Food is available On-Site. Waivers will be on-site.

Main Instructors will be;

*Pestilence *served in the Air Force and was assigned to Special Operations. His last 4 years in the military was as a Field Training Instructor teaching the next generations of Spec Ops warrior how to create chaos and get it done. He was at the tip of the spear in a very active unit.

*Wizard *has been in Law Enforcement since 1993. He holds Instructor certificates from The US Dept. of Justice, Dept. of Homeland Security, Bureau of Justice Assistance and Massachusetts Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association.

This has always been a VERY popular course and slots are LIMITED. Be sure to sign up before your spot is gone. We are FULLY insured for airsoft.

Visit our new website New England Airsoft Events for more information about us and our upcoming events. The links and forums should be LIVE this weekend.


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## Killjoy

> Pestilence served in the Air Force and was assigned to Special Operations. His last 4 years in the military was as a Field Training Instructor teaching the next generations of Spec Ops warrior how to create chaos and get it done. He was at the tip of the spear in a very active unit.
> 
> Wizard has been in Law Enforcement since 1993. He holds Instructor certificates from The US Dept. of Justice, Dept. of Homeland Security, Bureau of Justice Assistance and Massachusetts Law Enforcement Firearms Instructors Association.


"Pestilence?" "Wizard?" Are these guys X-Men?










I'm sorry, I'll stick to Sig, Smith, and Blackwater for my training.


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## Guest

Really at a loss for words on this one. Good luck with it though!


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## justanotherparatrooper

Im freakin speechless....wow


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## Killjoy

Airsoft offends me on three different levels; as a police officer, as a military veteran and as a gun owner. I guess my thought is if you are _so_ into the minutia of _dressing_ and _acting_ like you're in the military then _*join the military*_. Don't run around with a bunch of BB guns and multicam being a poser.

Also why spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on guns that fire BBs?

But I'll grudgingly admit, there are much worse things that kids could be doing.


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## Hush

Killjoy said:


> Also why spend hundreds or even thousands of dollars on guns that fire BBs?


Simply put: so you can shoot people. I hear a lot of distain for airsoft from Military and Police. I also happen to play airsoft....with a lot of Military and Police. I play competitively on a team that includes 4 active duty US Army, a former US Army Ranger,former US Navy, 2 full time Police Officers, and a full time trauma surgon. The average age is 30+, I myself am 27. I see how a lot of the idiots out there give this "sport" a bad rap, but at the level we play at, its not unlike any other organized team based sport. We invest heavily into guns and gear, these may be toys, but they are expensive high end toys. Besides being a fun way to keep in shape, many of our memebers use this as an opportunity to do some continuing training that translates almost seamlessly over into their jobs.
These guns are the same size and weight as their real counterparts. They also function similarly. They have real mag capacity and the same reloading procedure. Using this game as a training tool is a great way to develop muscle memory. The short range ballistics are also comprable, not to mention the "ammo" costs a fraction of simunitions, will not damage environments, and is even cheaper than paintballs. We have little in common with the 15 year old jackasses who run around in the woods with guns they bought at walmart. We have trained with the Revere PD in active shooter training by providing them with targets (us), and with the UNH Campus police, Duram and Portsmouth PD's and the US Marshals in a similar endeavor. On Friday we leave for FT Drum to participate in a T/E of their new MOUT site, a full scale small city with the full support and participation of the Army.
I see a lot of people here and other places shit on airsoft, and while I can understand it, I think the level that we play at is rarely seen. I think it would change peoples opinions if they saw the advantages to using this medium as training. You could run active shooter drills at the local high school with minimum supervision, for CHEAP, and not have to worry about damage and cleanup. You could have a full size metal pistol the same size and weight and function as a duty weapon. Shooting at someone and getting shot at reinforces tactical reloading, use of cover, and malfunction clearance. Easy things to do on the range, but harder under stress, and at close ranges these things do hurt...great way to induce stress. 
So if you still hate airsoft, I understand, but I just felt the need to defend the positive points.


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## Nighttrain

Dressing the part does not make it so.


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## Killjoy

> These guns are the same size and weight as their real counterparts. They also function similarly.


They are the same size, they are not the same weight, nor do the function anything like real firearms. They don't simulate how to handle the noise, recoil, or flash of a real firearm.


> They have real mag capacity and the same reloading procedure.


Yes their "magazines" can be removed and replaced, but they have a completely different feel from real magazines. Also the airsoft magazines tend to be fragile, and dumping them like real mags probably is a bad idea. 


> We have trained with the Revere PD in active shooter training by providing them with targets (us), and with the UNH Campus police, Duram and Portsmouth PD's and the US Marshals in a similar endeavor. On Friday we leave for FT Drum to participate in a T/E of their new MOUT site, a full scale small city with the full support and participation of the Army.


Our department has used airsoft weapons for some force-on-force training and our experience left a lot to be desired. While the price for BB's and air was very cheap, the weapons were fragile and broke constantly, especially under the stress of training every day for months on end. The magazines in particular tended to break very quickly. Many times, the BB's didn't cause enough of a "pain penalty" for participants to even feel if they'd been hit. All things being equal, I much prefer to train with simunitions.

Another issue is that airsoft (or for that matter, paintball) tactics are different from real firearms tactics in the sense that they are far too aggressive. Teams playing are interested in winning, not in duplicating life-saving or prudent tactics. In your own previous post, you point out that real bullets will penetrate much more than airsoft BB's, but if a guy trains a lot with airsoft, hiding behind sheet-rock walls for cover, what will he do under the stress of a real engagement? Probably hide behind the same wall as it get perforated with rounds. That's called a _training scar_. People don't come up with new tactics under stress; they do exactly what they've trained themselves to do.

"Playing" airsoft is just that; playing a game. Real training involves much of the time being spent at the range, getting trigger time on real firearms with airsoft being used only for force-on-force training. The scenarios should be designed by real firearms instructors, incorporating actual firearms related criteria with real-world scenarios, not all-out "shoot-em up" games.

For my money, I'd rather spend my time on bullets, not BB's. Besides BB's won't save your life when the zombies come.


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## Hush

Killjoy said:


> They are the same size, they are not the same weight, nor do the function anything like real firearms. They don't simulate how to handle the noise, recoil, or flash of a real firearm.
> 
> Yes their "magazines" can be removed and replaced, but they have a completely different feel from real magazines. Also the airsoft magazines tend to be fragile, and dumping them like real mags probably is a bad idea.
> 
> Our department has used airsoft weapons for some force-on-force training and our experience left a lot to be desired. While the price for BB's and air was very cheap, the weapons were fragile and broke constantly, especially under the stress of training every day for months on end. The magazines in particular tended to break very quickly. Many times, the BB's didn't cause enough of a "pain penalty" for participants to even feel if they'd been hit. All things being equal, I much prefer to train with simunitions.
> 
> Another issue is that airsoft (or for that matter, paintball) tactics are different from real firearms tactics in the sense that they are far too aggressive. Teams playing are interested in winning, not in duplicating life-saving or prudent tactics. In your own previous post, you point out that real bullets will penetrate much more than airsoft BB's, but if a guy trains a lot with airsoft, hiding behind sheet-rock walls for cover, what will he do under the stress of a real engagement? Probably hide behind the same wall as it get perforated with rounds. That's called a _training scar_. People don't come up with new tactics under stress; they do exactly what they've trained themselves to do.
> 
> "Playing" airsoft is just that; playing a game. Real training involves much of the time being spent at the range, getting trigger time on real firearms with airsoft being used only for force-on-force training. The scenarios should be designed by real firearms instructors, incorporating actual firearms related criteria with real-world scenarios, not all-out "shoot-em up" games.
> 
> For my money, I'd rather spend my time on bullets, not BB's. Besides BB's won't save your life when the zombies come.


I hear your arguements. I have a Sig p226, and I have an airsoft sig 226. They are within an ounce of eachother in weight, are exactly the same size and shape, and can also accomodate my TLR-1. The mags are comprable in size, shape and weight to a loaded 15 rnd 9mm mag. These guns are in essence toys, and they are finicky but when properly maintained they work very well. The problem with departments using them, is that people that dont understand the maintenance requirements and scope of use tend to get frustrated easily.
For me right now, airsoft is just a game. While some techniques do transfer to actual shooting, you are right about a lot of the negatives. But as a game, or a cost effective training medium, it still has some merits. Sims are ideal, but bb's can be better than nothing. Again, I hear both sides of the arguement, I just wanted to clarify that not every person who plays airsoft is either retarded, or a wanabe soldier.

If your department has any interest in continuing to explore airsoft as a training aid, let me know. We used to be involved with a store that provided and maintained an assortement of guns for use in training.


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## Hush

I thought you looked familiar
[nomedia="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5jezSeQnfCg"]YouTube- The Complete Policeman vs Fireman[/nomedia]


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## The Jesters

I simply posted this up for anyone that was interested. I know there are a lot of people on this forum that also play airsoft.

Before the info, I added why airsoft was different. I did not want to get into a debate about airsoft vs. real life/real steel. 

So, please if you are interested let me know.

For anyone else that cares. We are developing specific Law Enforcement scenarios with airsoft that we will be running in the future. There are many benefits and drawbacks to airsoft as a training tool for LE. Many of both sides have been presented already. 

When we do LE specific trianing it will be based on the response to the active shooter training currently being run by many local and state LE's, with state and federally certified firearms instructors who will be creating and adapting the courses. We have already began discussion with the MSP STOP team about the possibility of them training with us (however, they use sim rds, and we may be working with them to undergo this as well).

So this training is for people invovled in airsoft and want airsoft specific trianing.

Thanks to all that have wished us luck, as in the airsoft community this is something that is very few and far between and we wanted to reach as many people as possible and that is why I posted here.

Thanks Hush for adding airsoft related intel for all that had questions.

FYI, for more information see the alltell wireless commercials for WwwwwwwwwwwwiiiiZzzzzzzzzAaHhhhhhhRrrrD.


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## lawdog671

Jester are you suggesting that the STOP team will be training your "playgroup" that I understand NOT to be a law enforcement agency??


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## The Jesters

lawdog671 said:


> Jester are you suggesting that the STOP team will be training your "playgroup" that I understand NOT to be a law enforcement agency??


NO, absolutely NO.
What I am saying is that we may be used in their scenarios as role players in our facility for THEIR training. We would supply the location, Role Players (under thier direction) and the insurance.

This has been mentioned in initial talks and is in no way in its final stages. The MSP is always looking for new places to train and if we can supply the location and the right price (FREE), it may happen in the future.

Once this type of scenario base is set according to current LE standards, we would open it up to other LE agencies.


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## Hush

Wolfman said:


> If that happens will you start using real person names instead of Dungeons and Dragons handles?


 The previous post was made possible by...


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## justanotherparatrooper

Oh shit!


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## kwflatbed

I think this guy is full of pipe dreams


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## OfficerObie59

The Jesters said:


> I simply posted this up for anyone that was interested. I know there are a lot of people on this forum that also play airsoft.
> 
> Before the info, I added why airsoft was different. I did not want to get into a debate about airsoft vs. real life/real steel.


Take it easy there, killer. Not all threads always stay on topic here; amazingly, the site tends to put more emphasis on law enforcement than fake guns.

You thead didn't go unnoticed for what it worth. My little brother is an airsoft junkie and seemed interested.


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## Hush

Wolfman said:


> "I went to Boner, Stinkfoot and Cheekrattler's program."


For what its worth, I heard the Boner academy had a problem with "Accidental Discharges"


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