# Civil Service Unfair



## extraining guy (Jul 31, 2005)

Any thoughts on the possible new ruling from the federal bench regarding the civil service entry exam for public safety is bias against minorities, and that minority candidates should go to the top of the list so they are reached. 
Article from Lynn Item
*Minorities may go to top of list*
By *Jill Casey*
_Thursday, October 26, 2006_

*L*YNN - The city would be required to move all minorities to the top of a hiring list for public safety jobs if a federal judge agrees that it is the appropriate remedy to a court case that found Civil Service exams discriminated against minorities. 
"The minorities will be moved up on the list and receive a better opportunity to be reached and hired," said City Attorney Jim Lamanna about a proposed remedy issued by the Massachusetts Division of Human Resources, which issues Civil Service exams for firefighters and police officers. "Nothing has been asked of the city yet." 
If the court approves the remedy, it could affect the way all municipalities hire public safety personnel. The 2006 Civil Service exam was already adjusted to reflect theruling in the case. 
"It would not just affect Lynn," Lamanna said. 
Federal Judge Patti Saris ruled in favor of four plaintiffs from Lynn this past summer who did not score high enough on the 2002 and 2004 Civil Service exams and, therefore, did not show up on a list of candidates from which the city of Lynn must choose when hiring firefighters or police officers. 
In the court complaint, the attorneys for plaintiffs Jacob Bradley, Noah Bradley, Keith Ridley and Jared Thomas, argued that a system that utilizes scores as the primary criteria for hiring "results in a significantly disparate impact upon minority candidates and cannot be demonstrated to be required by business necessity under state or federal law." The complaint also said the plaintiffs are African-Americans and possess the qualifications to be Lynn firefighters. 
Saris ruled in their favor on Aug. 8, citing violations to the Civil Rights Act of 1974 by relying too heavily on a written exam that tests cognitive abilities. 
The city would be required to move minority candidates to the top of the hiring list if Saris approves the remedy this Monday in federal court. 
The city, however, has never been on trial and was just a plaintiff in a case that was divided into two cases against the state and the city of Lynn. 
"At this time the city does not intend to take a position on the trial," Lamanna said. 
The Attorney General's office is handling press inquiries regarding the Bradley case and could not be reached before press time Wednesday. 
Attorneys with the Boston legal firm Pyle, Rome, Lichten, Ehrenberg & Liss-Riordan, who represent the plaintiffs, did not return the Item's request for comment Wednesday. 
The lead plaintiff in the case, Jacob Bradley, was offered a "tentative offer of employment," last week by the Lynn Fire Department. At the time, Fire Chief Edward Higgins said his decision to offer Bradley employment had no bearing on the outcome of the trial.


----------



## EOD1 (Mar 11, 2004)

well thats just messed up. i think its bull shit.... & i'll give a preemptive.. LICK MY COIN PURSE... to anyone who thinks that I am racist. & no its not the same as vet pref. as i am sure some will say. I can imagine what happens when "spend it all Deval" gets into office... shits gonna get worse. But all those who are not "minorities" & who have not gotten on the job i bet florida is looking nice!


----------



## tikrit22 (Jul 4, 2006)

I don't understand these people. How does race relate to how one performs on a test?


----------



## ponyboy (Sep 10, 2004)

What they are saying is, because they are black they are dumber than white candidates and therefore the test is unfair. If a white person said that they would be labeled a racist. No matter, white people in this state are already treated like second class citizens. If Deval gets in and I say if, because I think Healey can still win despite what the polls say, it's all over for white people anyway. You might as well go back to school and become a social worker to give hand outs to minorities and Illegal immigrants. Deval Patrick is a Racist


----------



## Buford T (Feb 12, 2005)

Regardless of test score, if the powers that be want to get to someone on a list, black, white etc., there are several creative ways to do so, i.e. assessment centers, interview panels and the like. TEST SCORE MEANS NOTHING. The last promotional exam had NOTHING to do with policing and was full of throwaway knowledge. How is that a reasonable assessment of ones ability to lead?? Civil Service is no friend of ours in the appeals process, either. 

P.S. EOD1, LMAO about the coin purse


----------



## VTCOP (May 2, 2002)

So to take this into perspective...Im white, 27 years old (next week), and am not gay, nor half anything, not a migit, and do not speak a foriegn language, NOR am I a transvestite, or a converted he to she/she to he. Ok, am I just screwed now on getting a job in mass????


----------



## usaf1199a (Nov 28, 2005)

Absolute bullshit... normally I would have a more intelligent comment but I think bullshit sums it up.


----------



## 4198 (Jul 28, 2006)

Laws change with the times, new case law happens all the time.

If no one challenges a law from a different point of view, it remains decided as law from the last judges point of view.

Does anyone else here see that it's time for the Civil rights Act of 1974 to be amended and re-written to put all humans on an equal playing field? I can see how decisions like this current case in Lynn will actually fuel racism. I am white, and I live in a 99% black area of the city and I grew up with only one parent, no money, no college, and I could be called the "minority" but I gained no benefit from it, because I am white.

The question I ask; is it time for ANY person passed over due to color of skin to take it all the way to the highest court and prove they were passed by due to their skin color even if they are white? It would make headlines and cause many to skurry and call the person a racist, but in time it might, just might, get the Civil rghts act of 1974 brought up to date to end this ongoing outdated masked retribution that amounts to ongoing discrimination.


----------



## 4198 (Jul 28, 2006)

*Implementation worldwide*

In some countries which have laws on racial equality, affirmative action is rendered illegal by a requirement to treat all races equally. This approach of equal treatment is sometimes described as being "race-blind", in hopes that it is effective against discrimination without engaging in reverse discrimination.

In such countries, the focus tends to be on ensuring equal opportunity and, for example, targeted advertising campaigns to encourage ethnic minority candidates to join the police force. This is sometimes described as "positive action", as opposed to "positive discrimination".

It's time for the USA to catch up to the rest of the world!


----------



## Foxy85 (Mar 29, 2006)

What they are doing now is reverse discrimination. The fact that someone with a darker skin pigment gets pushed to the top is absolute BS. Should be based on score only. Then weed the PEOPLE out through interviews.....Race, ethnicity, etc should have no bearing on becoming a police officer...how lame.


----------



## Guest (Oct 29, 2006)

VTCOP said:


> So to take this into perspective...Im white, 27 years old (next week), and am not gay, nor half anything, not a migit, and do not speak a foriegn language, NOR am I a transvestite, or a converted he to she/she to he. Ok, am I just screwed now on getting a job in mass????


Yup.


----------



## SPO123 (Dec 31, 2005)

Originally Posted by *VTCOP*
_So to take this into perspective...Im white, 27 years old (next week), and am not gay, nor half anything, not a migit, and do not speak a foriegn language, NOR am I a transvestite, or a converted he to she/she to he. Ok, am I just screwed now on getting a job in mass????_

_Uhh, there's a hint in there somewhere...look South brother...MA is not the place to be...and it ain't going to get any better._


----------



## SPO280 (Jan 8, 2005)

*How about a test made up by minorities, let everyone take it and see who gets the high grades............no excuses!*


----------



## Mongo (Aug 10, 2006)

Foxy85 said:


> What they are doing now is reverse discrimination. The fact that someone with a darker skin pigment gets pushed to the top is absolute BS. Should be based on score only. Then weed the PEOPLE out through interviews.....Race, ethnicity, etc should have no bearing on becoming a police officer...how lame.


Dude,coming from a guy with an avatar of Rommel sporting an Iron cross really doesn't help you get your point across.

Be kinda like Healy wearing Grand wizard KKK outfit in her next debate.


----------



## EOD1 (Mar 11, 2004)

Mongo said:


> Dude,coming from a guy with an avatar of Rommel sporting an Iron cross really doesn't help you get your point across.
> 
> Be kinda like Healy wearing Grand wizard KKK outfit in her next debate.


yeah u nazi cookie dough eating bastard!!!!!


----------



## Foxy85 (Mar 29, 2006)

Do your homework Mongo, Rommel had nothing to do with the persecution of the Jews, therefore, he was simply a military genius and thats it. If you are some how offended by my name, write me a PM, otherwise, get over it.....

We're all on the same team here....


----------



## Mongo (Aug 10, 2006)

Done my homework.

I know who rommel is.

Also know who his boss was. (Hitler)

You must agree where I am coming from with your post complaining about racial indifference whith an avatar of represenative of the third reich during a time in history that had some of the worse racial indifference.


----------



## 4198 (Jul 28, 2006)

does anyone know the outcome of that minority case? the reason i am asking is they are releasing the Firefighter exam scores Nov 1 st with the list Dec 1st, so something must have went down?


----------



## billj (Aug 28, 2004)

*State OK's priority list for black, Hispanic firefighters*

By Shelley Murphy, Globe Staff | October 31, 2006
After a judge ruled that the state's 2002 and 2004 firefighter exams discriminated against blacks and Hispanics, state officials have agreed to a plan that would give top priority to some of those minority candidates in future hiring.
Lawyers told a federal judge yesterday that under the proposal, high-scoring minority candidates who would have been hired if the tests were not discriminatory would be placed at the top of a new civil service list to be issued Dec. 1. All other candidates on the new list would be ranked according to their scores on an exam given last June.
The plan has yet to be finalized and US District Judge Patti B. Saris asked lawyers to submit additional briefs before she accepts the plan designed to remedy past discrimination.
The state and lawyers who successfully brought the class-action suit disagree over how many minority candidates should go to the top of the list. While the state contends that only 22 would have been hired if the tests weren't discriminatory, lawyers for the plaintiffs say that number is closer to 50.
In August, Saris ruled in favor of four black firefighter applicants who sued the state and the City of Lynn, finding that the 2002 and 2004 exams had a disparate impact on minority candidates, because they continued to rank applicants solely based on how they scored on written exams that test cognitive ability.
Such tests were found discriminatory in the early 1970s and led to decades of court-ordered affirmative action policies in Lynn, Boston, and other cities in the state.
Saris found that many questions on the exam had nothing to do with firefighting and that the state didn't administer a strength test or take into account other factors, including life experience, personality, and other data.
The revamped civil service test administered in June no longer is based strictly on cognitive ability. It considers additional factors, but does not include a weight test.
At least one of the plaintiffs won't have to wait for a court-approved plan to start working as a firefighter.
Jacob Bradley, 26, of Lynn -- who filed the suit along with his brother, Noah, and two other men after failing to get hired despite a score of 94 -- said he was notified yesterday by the Lynn Fire Department that he would be sworn in as a firefighter today.
"I'm anxious to get started," said Bradley, adding that he will be the first African-American firefighter appointed to the Lynn department since 1993. His father, Kevin, has been a Lynn firefighter for 29 years.
"We all believe we are great candidates for firefighters," said Noah Bradley, who is still hoping to be hired.
"It's not just about the score," he said. "We're all smart . . . and we are all physically fit, and any one of us could carry a 200-pound person out of a burning building."


----------



## Bullock (Nov 21, 2005)

Can someone explain to me how being white (which I am) makes the test easier for me than a minority?

If theres a valid answer to that (which I obviously don't believe there is) then why doesn't civil service work with minorities to create a test all races can agree is fair. Giving minorities preference is going way to far.


----------



## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

billj said:


> Jacob Bradley, 26, of Lynn -- who filed the suit along with his brother, Noah, and two other men after failing to get hired despite a score of 94 -- said he was notified yesterday by the Lynn Fire Department that he would be sworn in as a firefighter today.


I'd be curious to see what the lowest white male's score was, of the firefighters hired??


----------



## chief801 (Dec 8, 2004)

I am not defending pushing minorities to the top of the list, but I do understand why it is being done. Believe it or not, it has less to do with race than it does with civil service. Protections were put in place for minorities because of years of unfair hiring practices. We have inherited a system that is no longer necessary. If the civil service test had content validity (the ability to prove that the content of the test would yield the candidates with the highest probability of job success) then there would be no way for the courts to justify pushing minorities to the top of the list. Because the test has not been validated, any members of a protected group (minorities, woment, homosexuals, etc.) that can prove to a court that their particular group has suffered a negative disparate impact (not hired because of lower test scores), they are entitled to relief under Federal Law. Basically fellas, if Joe average white guys outscore minorities on a test that isn't measuring the ability to do well on the job, the test will be deemed to be biased. Civil service needs to develope an exam that truly measures job aptitude. If they implement that kind of a test, race will not be an issue. Right now, the test does not necessarily yield the best candidates. Only the candidates who scored well on the c.s. test.


----------



## Guest (Nov 1, 2006)

My question is how unfair is a test when you score a 94? If received a 94 on a test in college, I would be pretty damn happy about doing that well. Now I realize that a 94 on civil service test means absolutely nothing and I have no problem with that because that is how the system works, Period. 

Visualize the following while you read the next paragraph.....Me flushing 75 dollars down the toilet last June

I understand that if I have a PhD in Criminal Justice and I score a 90 on the police test, I am going to be doing the same thing that I am doing as I type this....waiting until next April to take the test, just like everyone else. Will these candidates have preference over the vets? If so, that is garbage. I am a non-vet and I have absolutely no problem with those guys and gals getting preference over me. I do not have anything on my resume that comes close to what they are doing overseas, and they deserve those privileges when they come home (safely). No one should have preference over them or candidates that have lost family in the line of duty. 

Chief801, I can not debate the points you made, but I have to ask about those anti-discrimination laws you spoke of? Can someone tell me if those apply to minorities only? If so then it seems that those laws defeat their own purpose. So much for the "Open Competitive Firefighter Examination" its open to the public, but hardly can be competitive if the majority of people have no chance before they pick up their pencil. I apologize in advance if I offend or have offended anyone. Just a bit of a rant....Stay safe everyone


----------



## adroitcuffs (Jun 3, 2006)

Since I've never taken the c.s. exam, I'm not in a position to comment about the exam itself. However, I am very frustrated at the persistent feigned compassion for history's wrongs, imposed upon us as quotas and what amounts to reverse discrimination. We cannot change the wrongs of the past. Yes, review and revise tests so that they are applicable to the job. Don't quash my success because someone else isn't making the grade or because his/her grandparents were mistreated by society. I busted my tail to get my career. Excellent test scores, proven physical ability, and clean background were part of MY package. Yet I'm pretty confident that a couple of females in my academy class had some preferential treatment because they were female. One had a hard time making it to class on time (not a live-in academy) on many occasions because she had "child-care issues", yet she still graduated!!! I remember several years that white males could not even take the test for Los Angeles Fire so that more minorities could be hired.

Here's a thought... what if we just hired those most qualified for the position??? :sb:
</IMG>


----------



## billj (Aug 28, 2004)

The firefighter exam used to be job related ,and you had to study the "red book" given out by the state. It contained firefighting equipment, codes and tactics that you had to study and memorize prior to taking the exam. It was thrown out as unconstitutional in the early 70's. Obviously the "strength test" was watered down long ago so females could pass, I dont think anyone can dispute that.


----------



## chief801 (Dec 8, 2004)

jlw5375 said:


> My question is how unfair is a test when you score a 94? If received a 94 on a test in college, I would be pretty damn happy about doing that well. Now I realize that a 94 on civil service test means absolutely nothing and I have no problem with that because that is how the system works, Period.
> 
> Visualize the following while you read the next paragraph.....Me flushing 75 dollars down the toilet last June
> 
> ...


The anti-discrimination laws, in general, do not apply to only minorities, but to members of Federally "protected" groups. I agree that the whole system is unfair. None of this garbage will stop until a test is given and you are ranked soley on that score.


----------



## misconceived (Jun 18, 2006)

Has anyone watched television lately? Granted most media outlets are biased but, they all seem to agree on one thing at the moment. If you are white, YOU ARE THE MINORITY. This is such a crock. Civil Service is bullshit.


----------



## DVET1979 (Aug 4, 2004)

The courts have said that the test *IS* racially biased. They have not explained *HOW* it is racially biased.


----------

