# Drift: Shifting our law enforcement norms



## cc3915

*Career Advancement*
with Dr. Larry F. Jetmore

I was in a police department recently to provide applicants for police sergeant a briefing on an upcoming sergeant's test. While the candidates were entering the room a young officer approached the assistant chief of police - who was in full uniform - and said, "How's it going Terry?" They shook hands, and talked for a couple of minutes. The Chief and I have known each other for many years, and he could tell that I was a little taken aback. When I asked why he allowed officers to address him by his first name he told me it was a "different era" and that police officers today are very different from than those I served with.
I hear variations along this same theme all the time. Complaints from veteran officers that younger officers "have no sense of pride in being police officers" or "don't have dedication to the job" or "don't have a good work ethic" or who "constantly question" why they have to do something the way the sergeant wants it done.
Although I have no way of knowing if any of this is true nationally, I've seen enough of this type of behavior here in New England to cause me to give a great deal of thought about whether our profession has moved away from its center. It makes me think a lot about the concept of drift.

http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/articles/5265765-Drift-Shifting-our-law-enforcement-norms/


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## Guest

If I knew someone when they were still a patrol officer, I address them by their first name in the station or during personal conversations out of earshot of the public. At crime scenes with the public around and on the radio, I address them by their rank. No one has ever had a problem with that.


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## Herrdoktor

Dinosaurs like this guy need to go away


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## HousingCop

Herrdoktor said:


> Dinosaurs like this guy need to go away


_About the author_
_Dr. Larry F. Jetmore, a retired captain of the Hartford (Conn.) Police Department, has authored five books in the field of criminal justice, including The Path of the Warrior. A former police academy and SWAT team commander, he earned his Ph.D. at Union University in Ohio, plus master's, bachelors and associate degrees in Connecticut. Jetmore directs the criminal justice program at Middlesex College in Middletown, Conn., and is a full-time faculty member. He is also Director of the National Police Testing Services which creates and administers police examinations. His new book, The Path of the Hunter: Entering and Excelling in the Field of Criminal Investigation, is available from Looseleaf. To learn more or to order, visit the Looseleaf Law online catalog or call (800) 647-5547 Contact Larry Jetmore_

*Dinosaurs like this guy blazed a path for you, Herrdoktor, that has sadly...... DRIFTED. When you've done 1/10th of this mans accomplishments, come back & see us. *


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## Herrdoktor

HousingCop said:


> *Dinosaurs like this guy blazed a path for you, Herrdoktor, that has sadly...... DRIFTED. When you've done 1/10th of this mans accomplishments, come back & see us. *


His accomplishments are quite impressive. I'm glad he can now enjoy his retirement while younger police officers carry the torch well into the 21st century.

Modern police officers face challenges guys who were on the street 20-30 years ago could not even imagine and the same will be true for the young pups when we are dinosaurs.


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## DNorth

I can not pick sides in this, however personally I think I was brainwashed by several years in the Army/Guard before entering law enforcement, and I always addressed senior personnel by their rank. I never could get comfortable calling a Sergeant "Ricky" when everyone else did. The only exception was someone I knew since I was a kid, and he was promoted to Sergeant before I was. In that case it was just too common for me to call him by his first name, as I had been for 20+ years.


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## HousingCop

Herrdoktor said:


> His accomplishments are quite impressive. I'm glad he can now enjoy his retirement while younger police officers carry the torch well into the 21st century.
> 
> Modern police officers face challenges guys who were on the street 20-30 years ago could not even imagine and the same will be true for the young pups when we are dinosaurs.


*Herrdoktor, *
*You mean challenges like riots, murder, mayhem, demonstrations, social disconnect, infanticide, terrorists, serial killers, et al? The same shit my father had to deal with in 1960 is still relevant today. The only thing a modern cop can do today better than a dinosaur is probably computer or technology based. It's something they can't or aren't willing to learn about.*
*Give me a crusty 25 year vet who's been there, and seen that, instead of some shiny badge rook who thinks they know it all. Remember, pride cometh before the fall. I've seen so many come & go, I ran out of fingers and toes a looooong time ago. *
*If you can't give the respect your superiors rank represents, then you'll never EARN it either. You may not respect the man, but you have to respect the title. We've DRIFTED. HC*


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## 7costanza

Wtf do you guys expect from an Occupy sympathizer.


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## niteowl1970

7costanza said:


> Wtf do you guys expect from an Occupy sympathizer.


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## PBC FL Cop

I started in this profession 24yrs ago *today* and I have always called ranking officials by their title. There has been a shift in attitudes in the law enforcement profession. A certain sense of entitlement is becoming more and more common throughout the ranks.


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## Herrdoktor

HousingCop said:


> *Herrdoktor, *
> *You mean challenges like riots, murder, mayhem, demonstrations, social disconnect, infanticide, terrorists, serial killers, et al? The same shit my father had to deal with in 1960 is still relevant today. The only thing a modern cop can do today better than a dinosaur is probably computer or technology based. It's something they can't or aren't willing to learn about.*
> *Give me a crusty 25 year vet who's been there, and seen that, instead of some shiny badge rook who thinks they know it all. *


It has nothing to do with being 'better' than anyone else. You speak of technology and computers as though they are not now a massive part of the challenges we face today. There will always be crime/violence, but this very forum speaks day after day about the shift in the media against law enforcement. That shift, along with the rise in anti-cop websites and one seems to sense a growing trend in our society that police officers are the enemy. Every time an officer hits the streets he has to know that some shitbird can easily edit a camera video that could potentially damage/ruin their career.

Couple that with a shitty economy run by incompetent politicians and all of it only make us all look worse.

With that all said I too want a crusty veteran by my side and will always look to their advice, but with that advice usually comes the mind numbing ideal of 'well we have always done it this way so why change?' I know every police officer here knows the pain of seeing shit move at a glacial pace when it comes to a shift of ideas that would benefit us all.



> *Remember, pride cometh before the fall. I've seen so many come & go, I ran out of fingers and toes a looooong time ago.*
> *If you can't give the respect your superiors rank represents, then you'll never EARN it either. You may not respect the man, but you have to respect the title. We've DRIFTED. HC*


As for rank, any man who calls his Sgt. by his first name better have a good fucking reason.

When it comes to respect that is earned through one's actions and integrity, not because they were there first. We all know veterans who are a waste of oxygen.


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## Herrdoktor

7costanza said:


> Wtf do you guys expect from an Occupy sympathizer.


Yes by sympathizer you mean 'guy who doesn't want resources wasted on trash because we will always look like shit in the eyes of the public.'

Occupiers will always be a lose-lose situation for law enforcement. You continue this idea that I am a 'liberal' because I don't join the anti-Obama circle jerks in this forum. Get over yourself.


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## Herrdoktor

PBC FL Cop said:


> I started in this profession 24yrs ago *today* and I have always called ranking officials by their title. There has been a shift in attitudes in the law enforcement profession. A certain sense of entitlement is becoming more and more common throughout the ranks.


The entitlement is found throughout our society and is a result of the generation of the early 80s on.

A modern police department will always be a reflection of those who work within its ranks.


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## niteowl1970

Herrdoktor said:


> Couple this with the rise in anti-cop websites and one seems to sense a growing trend in our society that police officers are the enemy.


I don't this is anything new. The general public has always resented the police in one way or another because people don't like being told what to do. I attribute the rise in anti-cop websites is the rise of social media as the preferred way of communicating ideas.


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## SinePari

I have no problem with someone who likes to romanticize police work, their affinity for "classic" policing and the discipline that comes with it. However it's funny to me that those who mock things that my department does to maintain some semblance of tradition, military bearing, and pride now have sided with the Dr's views on these shifts in policing.

You know who ya are...


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## Dan Stark

I would love to work for someone with experience, standards, and tradition. Instead, I work for the EXACT opposite 

-Sent from my smarty phone while bustin' punks.


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## Johnny Law

I've been around long enough to see guys and gals who were in patrol with me attain rank. I still call them by first name within the station or in private settings. Outside the station on a scene, it's by call sign or rank. There are only two people left that hold the same rank when I started that I ONLY call by their rank, not name. That's just ingrained now.

I see these newer guys come on now, there is just a sense of entitlement from some of these people that I want to fucking smack. Perhaps that is as old as this profession though.


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## fra444

I was told by a senior officer that has known me since I was little, "I call supervisors by their rank at work because that's how it should be done. I call them by their rank out of work only if I respect them". I have followed Bo's advice since that day and will continue to do so.


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## cc3915

fra444 said:


> I was told by a senior officer that has known me since I was little, "I call supervisors by their rank at work because that's how it should be done. I call them by their rank out of work only if I respect them". I have followed Bo's advice since that day and will continue to do so.


That's pretty much how I rolled too Sarge. I also gave LT. and up a hand salute when outside at a scene. Of course there's always an exception now and then, but I never found this formula to fail.


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## Guest

Johnny Law said:


> I see these newer guys come on now, there is just a sense of entitlement from some of these people that I want to fucking smack. Perhaps that is as old as this profession though.


Perhaps your FTO's are more interested in being nice than doing their job?

I tell my n00bs that I really don't care if they like me, because I already have all the friends I need.


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## CJIS

Definitely agree that when you are in public and on the radio Officers should address each other by Rank and Last name. As far out of the public sight and hearing I do not know too many officers that have a problem talking to each other informally.


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## PBC FL Cop

Herrdoktor said:


> The entitlement is found throughout our society and is a result of the generation of the early 80s on.
> 
> A modern police department will always be a reflection of those who work within its ranks.


Thats exactly what he was talking...


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## Johnny Law

Delta784 said:


> Perhaps your FTO's are more interested in being nice than doing their job?
> 
> I tell my n00bs that I really don't care if they like me, because I already have all the friends I need.


Perhaps a bit of this, but I think it's the actual generation gap.

You know, handing out of participation awards for everyone connected to a youth sports event so no one goes home with a boo-boo face. Instead of learning that hard work and excellence are rewarded with being the best team, the best pitcher, etc. these dicks think they should advance to the front of the line and become "insert special unit or post here" simply because they want it and they think they are the shit.

Not all the new kids are like this, but a discouraging number of them are being produced from the academy. For two years straight, I've begged one of my buddies who also happens to be one of the best Sergeants around and is in charge of the academy out this way, to let me be there on first day, I'll only stay an hour too! I'd like to weed out some of these people then, because it is harder when they graduate. Strangely enough, he hasn't taken me up on it.


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## Usa8235

Interesting article, thanks for posting CC..i've heard alot of similar complaints from the dinosaurs i know, the good ol' beat Officers (not the "community policing" ones) by far the most common one is "all these new guys care about are details"..


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## lofu

I think its a respect that has gone away from all aspects of society. We have kids calling their teachers by their first name for Christ sake.


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## Johnny Law

lofu said:


> I think its a respect that has gone away from all aspects of society. We have kids calling their teachers by their first name for Christ sake.


 My wife got a little pissed at me because I insist my kid's friends call me Mr. Law, not my first name. WTF? I still call *my* friends' parents Mr. or Mrs!


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## Usa8235

RESPECT..you hit the nail on the head. Once you lose that...ain't good..its so basic.

You can really tell those Officers who have Military backgrounds as well..from the fact that they can actually march to the respect they show. "Sir and Ma'm", and i doubt you would see an ex-Military fail to stand/salute


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## Herrdoktor

Usa8235 said:


> RESPECT..you hit the nail on the head. Once you lose that...ain't good..its so basic.
> 
> You can really tell those Officers who have Military backgrounds as well..from the fact that they can actually march to the respect they show. "Sir and Ma'm", and i doubt you would see an ex-Military fail to stand/salute


I know plenty of Marines/Army retirees who are cops that left the sirs and ma'ams behind the second they went back to civilian life.


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## dave7336

When I'm in a private setting with some of the guys I came on with or were Patrolmen before with me before we were promoted I call them by their first names. Anyone who was a ranking officer when I came on is always called by the rank. Either way, when in a public setting or on the radio, people should be called by their rank. This goes both ways on the chain of command. I think it demonstrates professionalism to the public.

The problem with people now is this is the generation that has never been told no..They get a trophy no matter how they did. They don't learn to realize that in life, there will be disappointments and you have to "suck it up" sometimes.

All one has to do is look at schools that want to eliminate class rank because it seperates the kids..Yup, rather than reward the ones that put in hard work and effort, let's reward the slackers..This country is getting more screwed up each day!

Sad part is that some of these new officers that don't call their bosses by rank are the same ones that call the public "sir" and "maam."


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## GARDA

Here's something to consider about the minutiae of our profession's heritage... about rank, about respect, and about why (IMO) none of it should be lost in the mist of modern law enforcement either:

_"__You cannot be disciplined in great things and indiscipline in small things. _​_Brave undisciplined men have no chance against the discipline and valour of other men... _​_Have you ever seen a few policemen handle a crowd?"_​​(_Gen. George S. Patton_ - May 1941, in an address to officers and men of the Second Armored Division).​
It *ALL* matters.​
​​


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## Guest

Dino's or not we didnt get our badges, walk into work the first day like we owned the place. I'm not saying all the newbys are like this, but some are. I guess some of it is the millinium generation that has come to expect everything instantly. Every generation has it's pros and cons (I'm sure my Dad wasn't pleased with my long hair and carefree 70's way), but not having respect for elders and authority, it appears that this is a con of most of this generation.


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## SinePari

Doesn't matter where you are; every generation will scorn the next.


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## Rock

I don't think there is much argument from many that this job is very different today than it was 20-30 years ago. The distain for authority has always been there but today it's dealt with in a different way. I haven't been on for ever but I do remember a Lt handleing a complaint from a guy. Guy walked in and started bad mouthing his guy saying he swore at him and was very aggressive. The Lt. basicly grabbed the guy by the back of his neck and tossed him out saying he had no idea what aggressive was and that he didn't want to see him around there again. BANG!!!!!

If that happened today you'd have a shit storm and a half. The public used to somewhat support the police. You hear about how you could "dope slap" a kid and bring him to his parents and tell the parents what happened and they would punish the kid. Now we all know what happens. Now they tell you to mind your business and get you hands off my little precious. Today there is no public support. 

Culture, respect and attitude have all changed in the job and public. Anyone that doesn't see that has their head in the sand. All we can control is ourselves. Show mutual respect toward eachother both young and old and ALWAYS use rank/sir/maam to co-workers when anyone is around you don't know.

But what do I know Sir, I'm just a noob with less than 10 years on. 

Respectfully,
Rock


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## SPINMASS

I have found that by not forcing the show of respect of your title IE allowing subordinates to call you by first name, it makes it much more difficult to enforce rule/regs and discipline those that need to be disciplined. It lends itself to a much more laissez faire attitude and hands off (read Lazy) way of working. those that you do allow to be more personal need to make sure that they are always in a position to be supported by the person of rank.

In regards to modern policing, (Keep in mind I am still new to the job with under ten years) I have found the pervasive attitude to be very non-chalant. Guys coming out of the academy have no desire to go out and work and think that it is "cool" to talk about doing 8 and skating and waiting for the next detail to come in. I understand that as we are more seasoned on the job we may become more cynical and look to hide at time but when you are fresh out of the academy, you should be full of piss and vinegar.

I have also found that agencies that hold true to customs and norms and traditions are a much stronger and well disciplined department. They generally have more "go-getters" and do a better job as a department.


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## fra444

Garda this, " “You cannot be disciplined in great things and indiscipline in small things. Brave undisciplined men have no chance against the discipline and valour of other men... Have you ever seen a few policemen handle a crowd?”

(Gen. George S. Patton -May 1941, in an address to officers and men of the Second Armored Division)." Is going to be my next status on FB! Amazing quote man!!!!


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## GARDA

fra444 said:


> _*Garda this,*_ " "You cannot be disciplined in great things and indiscipline in small things. Brave undisciplined men have no chance against the discipline and valour of other men... Have you ever seen a few policemen handle a crowd?"
> 
> (Gen. George S. Patton -May 1941, in an address to officers and men of the Second Armored Division)." _*Is going to be my next status on FB! Amazing quote man!!!!*_


Thx fra, every now and again some of the mental luggage finds its way out and into a MC conversation.. lol. You and StbbrnMedic have a great Easter weekend! Peace bro.


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## fra444

Have a great Easter weekend to brother and stay safe!!


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## Killjoy

Much of what I see comes from a command staff who refuses to lead by example. You could walk around headquarters at my job for an hour before you see a single officer in a uniform. And now people wonder why some guys wear their uniforms like sh*t. Hand salute? I stopped doing that when the zillionth lieutenant I saluted ignored it, or gave me an embarrassed/and or confused look. How do you think an officer feels when he's written up for being late, yet he see the Lt leaving to hit the links at 2:00pm? It all flows from above, when a command officer leads by example, then his men can do no less then him. When the command officers slip and slide, as they often do of late, then how can you ask the men to do the right thing?


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## Rock

How dare you question authority?!?


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## Usa8235

Herrdoktor said:


> I know plenty of Marines/Army retirees who are cops that left the sirs and ma'ams behind the second they went back to civilian life.


I'm glad i don't


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## ams

I dont understand how you wouldn't show respect of higher ranking officers. Maybe I'm just young still being in school and all, but I was always taught to show respect of higher people no matter where. So saying rank and last name seems to be a givin to me.

"We have kids calling their teachers by their first name for Christ sake."

Who does that? It seems wierd to hear kids are doing that. It was always Mr. Mrs. Ms. Professor, or Dr. so an so if they were your teacher.


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## Bhaggs

I was always raised that everyone was Mr., Ms., Mrs., Dr. no matter what the age if you knew them and Sir or Ma'am for people that I didn't know. I can't believe how kids are being raised. I was always taught to respect everyone older than me. 

My Fiancee's parents actually just got me to stop calling them Mr. & Mrs. after 4.5 years of being together. They had to tell that they've known me for 4.5 years and will be marrying their daughter soon, please call them by their first name and I explained that it was just how I was raised. 

I can only imagine how much worse it will get with the generation after this...


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## dave7336

Bhaggs said:


> I was always raised that everyone was Mr., Ms., Mrs., Dr. no matter what the age if you knew them and Sir or Ma'am for people that I didn't know. I can't believe how kids are being raised. I was always taught to respect everyone older than me.
> 
> My Fiancee's parents actually just got me to stop calling them Mr. & Mrs. after 4.5 years of being together. They had to tell that they've known me for 4.5 years and will be marrying their daughter soon, please call them by their first name and I explained that it was just how I was raised.
> 
> I can only imagine how much worse it will get with the generation after this...


My parents were married for 47 years and until the day my father passed away, he always called my grandparents Mr. and Mrs. It is a sign of respect that kids to day don't have


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## Dan Stark

It's tough to call adults Mr. and Mrs. when you are facebook friends with them. You won't get any 'likes'


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