# Upstate New York pepper-sprayed a 9-year-old



## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

...I know right what a bunch of asshole cops.

Here is what I have to say. But I would really like to hear your thoughts on this cluster F of a call and use of force.

The officer were called to a domestic with a female having suicidal and homicidal ideations. The 9 year old girl was located outside of her residents by one of the responding officers. The officer tried to start a dialog with the girl, things were going just ok until mom shows up and exacerbates the situation by trying take on the watching neighborhood and the world, the youth became further aggressive and combative while her mother is still creating a scene and further antagonizing the youth. In fear of harming herself or others the officer attempted to place her in handcuffs, called for an ambulance to stage. After several failed attempts to put the youth in the back of a the cruiser to not only secure her but also to keep her warm (incident occurred during a snow storm) a officer deployed pepper spray as a less lethal pain compliance technique to gain control to bring her to a medical facility where she could be evaluated. Giving the totality of the circumstances, the deployment of Oleoresin capsicum on a mentally unstable youth is normally not preferred, however in the instance was justified and warranted.

~RF





Police in upstate New York pepper-sprayed a 9-year-old, bodycam videos released on Sunday show Officers with the Rochester Police Department responded to a call for 'family trouble' and a possible stolen car around 3.30pm on Friday, the Chronicle reported. Cops were told by the girl's mother, her custodial parent, that she was suicidal and wanted to harm herself and others, according to the outlet. Cops said the girl was taken to a local hospital to receive 'the services and care that she needed,' after she was pepper-sprayed by the officers, and has since been released back to her family. The incident comes after the March 2020 death of Daniel Prude sparked protests leading city officials to partially defund the police in order to launch the Person in Crisis Team, under the Office of Crisis Intervention Service.


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## Treehouse413 (Mar 7, 2016)

I don’t like to Monday morning quarterback others . I will say GOOD LUCK w justifying the use of pepper spray .


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

"I've got a bad heart"? Do they teach that in the George Floyd Memorial Elementary School or something?


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## Sooty (Nov 1, 2018)

Dear child. 
I hope in a few years you go googling and happen here. 

We feel for you - you were screwed in the life lottery with that foul mouthed screaming banshee of a mother. 
She doesn't seem to care about you as much as she loves creating drama. 

Good luck - I hope someday you get to see your daddy. I hope harder that you land in a loving foster home.


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## WMA7787 (May 4, 2014)

Treehouse413 said:


> I don't like to Monday morning quarterback others . I will say GOOD LUCK w justifying the use of pepper spray .


Couldn't agree more, especially with the number of officers present


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

Treehouse413 said:


> I don't like to Monday morning quarterback others . I will say GOOD LUCK w justifying the use of pepper spray .


What other tactics would you have used? and why?



WMA7787 said:


> Couldn't agree more, especially with the number of officers present


 How would you handle it as an officer on scene, what would you have done differently to quell the disturbance?


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

LVNR. Night, night. 

Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

Can't speak for use of force policies in New York but here in California that use of OC would not fly. Plus, why use it in your car where it's gonna effect everyone including the officers once they get in.

The girl is 9-years-old who is apparently growing up in a dysfunctional family. If the mother talks that way to her potentially suicidal daughter in front of the police, imagine what happens "behind closed doors." The girl obviously has psyche issues and from what we see here, it's certainly understandable and probably hasn't been treated.

The initial officer was calm with her at the beginning but that didn't last long. As soon as mom starting mouthing off to her daughter, the officer should've verbalized (or at least tried) to get mom to calm down. All she did was make the situation worse. At this point it was pretty evident the girl was having problems because of mom.

How about asking her name and trying to talk to her calmly for more than a minute. Unless I missed something, she isn't John Dillinger, she's a 9-year-old kid with family and psyche issues, maybe treat her as such. Have some patience with her. She asked for her dad a hundred times, at least acknowledge her dad in some form. It wasn't until the very end that the female officer does so.

Verbalization is the first form of use of force. In this case, the officers could have tried talking to her and not at her. Granted, at some point we have to take action, but we need to recognize the difference between bad guys and young kids with issues. Aren't we supposed to help people, especially kids?

As a side note, since the girl alleged that mom stabbed dad, I wonder if they looked into that.


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## Roy Fehler (Jun 15, 2010)

Sorry, if you can’t handle a 9 year-old girl without using pepper spray, just turn in your badge.


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## Treehouse413 (Mar 7, 2016)

RodneyFarva said:


> What other tactics would you have used? and why?
> 
> How would you handle it as an officer on scene, what would you have done differently to quell the disturbance?


Maybe open up the other door and pull her over . She's 9 and handcuffed, shouldn't be too difficult.


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

Roy Fehler said:


> Sorry, if you can't handle a 9 year-old girl without using pepper spray, just turn in your badge.


Just playing Devils advocate so don't burn me to bad
4+ cops pinning down a an African American female who is flailing about on the side walk in a snow storm. Cell phones out and you are now Youtube famous.


Treehouse413 said:


> Maybe open up the other door and pull her over . She's 9 and handcuffed, shouldn't be too difficult.


Sure, You break her wrist, or she strikes her head that causes cerebral hemorrhaging. She is now brain dead and you are out of a job and heading to a criminal then civil trial.


LA Copper said:


> How about asking her name and trying to talk to her calmly for more than a minute. Unless I missed something, she isn't John Dillinger, she's a 9-year-old kid with family and psyche issues, maybe treat her as such. Have some patience with her. She asked for her dad a hundred times, at least acknowledge her dad in some form. It wasn't until the very end that the female officer does so.
> 
> Verbalization is the first form of use of force. In this case, the officers could have tried talking to her and not at her. Granted, at some point we have to take action, but we need to recognize the difference between bad guys and young kids with issues. Aren't we supposed to help people, especially kids?


Yes we are, and we mostly do! but it is only now we have the luxury of this post incident information, NYPD officers didn't at the time of the call.
Adam Lanza looked like a stiff wind would knock him down but he went on to kill 26 toddlers.
19 Saudi men all looking like business professionals boarded planes and changed history killing 3000 people.
Dennis Rader, otherwise known as the BTK killer work as a police officer and killed 10 before getting caught.
Another point is the Tenn V. Garner case (*nothing to do with the fleeing felon, 4th amd or case law, just the officer's testimony at trial) the officer that shot Garner testified he thought Garner looked older the he actually was.
Now that's not even touching on other factors at play such as excited delirium, illicit narcotic use or not taking prescribed medications.
"Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledge-hammer." Maj. I. L. Holdridge


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## Treehouse413 (Mar 7, 2016)

Well not sure where you work but in MA that situation is against the force continuum . The example you gave about arms breaking and brain demand is extreme . I’ve had the same situation w adults and was able to get them in the car . I mean they could’ve broken her wrist or arm handcuffing her right ? Like others have said she’s 9, if you can’t handle her somethings wrong .


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

RodneyFarva said:


> "Sometimes it is entirely appropriate to kill a fly with a sledge-hammer." Maj. I. L. Holdridge


This isn't one of those incidents.


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## Roy Fehler (Jun 15, 2010)

RodneyFarva said:


> Just playing Devils advocate so don't burn me to bad
> 4+ cops pinning down a an African American female who is flailing about on the side walk in a snow storm. Cell phones out and you are now Youtube famous.


Right, because pepper-spraying a 9 year-old girl didn't cause any issues with bad publicity.

I can completely justify restraining an out of control, suicidal child until EMS gets there. I can't justify using pepper spray, either morally or within department policy.


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

Roy Fehler said:


> Right, because pepper-spraying a 9 year-old girl didn't cause any issues with bad publicity.
> 
> I can completely justify restraining an out of control, suicidal child until EMS gets there. I can't justify using pepper spray, either morally or within department policy.


Any way you look at it is bad, however sometimes officers have to make split seconds decisions under extreme circumstances. (Graham v. Connor) If it was done maliciously and sadistically for the very purpose of causing harm, he better find a good lawyer.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

I think I understand what you're trying to say but this wasn't a "split second decision" situation, this evolved over time.

Let's just face it, while this isn't the worst thing we've seen, it certainly isn't too good either.


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## CCCSD (Jul 30, 2017)

Shoulda just spanked her. Right in public.


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## HistoryHound (Aug 30, 2008)

How long until someone stumbles into this thread and chimes in with "they should have brought in a mental health professional"? I'm just going to pre-emptively say guess who the social workers and counselors call in the situations.


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## AB7 (Feb 12, 2019)

I don’t see this going well. Someone please correct me if I’m wrong but...

You have a 9 year old girl reported to be SI/HI by mom. (I could believe she was older than 9 from seeing her)

She is in handcuffs, partially inside of a cruiser, and not actively harming herself or anyone else. She’s actively resistant, I didn’t see her kicking the officers, banging her head, or anything. 

You have her outnumbered beyond 2 to 1. Despite OC spray being authorized for actively resistant suspects, she is already in your custody. She poses no threat to the officers.

It seems like they already called for an ambulance that hasn’t arrived for over 10 minutes. (The first officer seems to make this call immediately after catching up to her and grabbing her arm)

She’s repeatedly demanding to see her father. I don’t know why it takes almost until the point where they spray her for someone to listen to this. She’s screaming for minutes on end asking about the same thing. “I want my dad!”

I still wouldn’t have sprayed her. If I did, I would expect someone to MMQB me.


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## AB7 (Feb 12, 2019)

HistoryHound said:


> How long until someone stumbles into this thread and chimes in with "they should have brought in a mental health professional"? I'm just going to pre-emptively say guess who the social workers and counselors call in the situations.


Under the new statute authorizing use of force, that is one of the bullet points from the nice write up by LE Dimensions.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

We've been using similar stuff for years. Those first four points should have been utilized more in this particular incident.


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## HistoryHound (Aug 30, 2008)

AB7 said:


> Under the new statute authorizing use of force, that is one of the bullet points from the nice write up by LE Dimensions.
> 
> View attachment 10437


I understand what you're saying, but this sounds like one of those situations where the police needed to be there not a therapist. Some of the kids my daughter works with are like this and they have had to get the police involved because they can only do so much (especially since everything is remote right now).


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## CCCSD (Jul 30, 2017)

Spare The Rod, Spoil the Child.


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## Sooty (Nov 1, 2018)

RodneyFarva said:


> What other tactics would you have used? and why?
> 
> How would you handle it as an officer on scene, what would you have done differently to quell the disturbance?


I'm no cop, but I'd have been on the radio asking where the hell the bus was LONG before pepper spraying the kid!


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## AB7 (Feb 12, 2019)

HistoryHound said:


> I understand what you're saying, but this sounds like one of those situations where the police needed to be there not a therapist. Some of the kids my daughter works with are like this and they have had to get the police involved because they can only do so much (especially since everything is remote right now).


Springfield, Worcester, and Boston all have behavioral health "co-responders" that can be called to assist with crisis. I refuse to believe that Rochester, NY doesn't have this. New York politicians are some of the most progressive, forward thinking, anti-cop people I've ever seen.


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## USAF3424 (Mar 18, 2008)

AB7 said:


> Springfield, Worcester, and Boston all have behavioral health "co-responders" that can be called to assist with crisis. I refuse to believe that Rochester, NY doesn't have this. New York politicians are some of the most progressive, forward thinking, anti-cop people I've ever seen.


They're actually on duty about 25% of the time. More often than not the "BEST" team is not available.


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

USAF3424 said:


> They're actually on duty about 25% of the time. More often than not the "BEST" team is not available.


Also Framingham, Marlborough and Hudson have the Jail diversion program via PES.


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## CCCSD (Jul 30, 2017)

Or just not ever arrest anyone or respond in a timely manner...


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

One police officer was suspended and two were placed on administrative leave in Rochester, New York, two days after the release of a video showing authorities pepper spraying a 9-year-old girl while responding to a report of "family trouble," officials said.

In a statement released early into Tuesday, a spokesman for Mayor Lovely Warren said the Rochester Police Department immediately removed the three involved officers from patrol duties. The suspension was ordered after Warren met with the Police Chief Cynthia Herriott-Sullivan.

The internal investigation is ongoing and the spokesman did not respond to a request for additional details. The suspensions will remain in place until an internal probe is completed.

Videos of protests showed hundreds of people marching on Rochester's snowy streets chanting, "Black lives matter," and gathering outside the city's police station on Monday night as state officials, including Gov. Andrew Cuomo, condemned the officers' actions.

"This isn't how the police should treat anyone, let alone a 9-year-old girl," Cuomo said in statement.
"What happened in Rochester on Friday is deeply disturbing and wholly unacceptable," Attorney General Letitia James said in a statement. "Such use of force and pepper spray should never be deployed against a child, period. My office is looking into what transpired and how a child was ever subjected to such danger."

During a news conference Sunday, Warren told reporters that the Jan. 29 incident was "not something that any of us should want to justify." She added that she saw her own child's face in the face of the 9-year-old.

Officers were called on Friday afternoon after a report that the girl was threatening to harm herself and her mother, Andre Anderson, deputy chief of the Rochester police, told reporters Sunday.

When officers tried to move the girl into a police car to take her to a hospital, she resisted, kicking one of the officers, Anderson said.

Body camera video released by the police department Sunday shows authorities handcuffing the girl while she repeatedly screams for her father and refuses to get in the vehicle.

"You're acting like a child," one of the officers says at one point.

"I am a child," she can be heard responding.

In the video, officers can be heard saying that they would pepper spray her if she continued to resist. When an officer did, Anderson said, the "effects of that did work."
It isn't clear what happened before or after the video, which was edited by police, though Anderson said the girl was eventually taken to Rochester General Hospital and released.

The officers in the video have not been identified and additional details about the incident weren't immediately available. A message left with the Rochester Police Department requesting an incident report wasn't returned Sunday night.

The city's police union also did not immediately respond to a request for comment, but in comments cited by the Rochester Democrat & Chronicle, union president Mike Mazzeo said the officer made a decision to subdue the girl and acted in a way that didn't injure her.

"I'm not saying there are not better ways to do things," Mazzeo told the newspaper. "But let's be realistic about what we're facing. ... It's not TV, it's not Hollywood. We don't have a simple (situation), where we can put out our hands and have somebody be instantly handcuffed and comply."

_Download the NBC News app for breaking news and politics_

The confrontation comes less than a year after Daniel Prude, 41, died while being restrained by Rochester police with a "spit hood" over his head.

The police department's chief and entire command staff resigned after Prude's death, and the city enacted law enforcement reforms, including moving crisis intervention from the purview of police.

The city launched a "person in crisis" response team earlier this month, according to NBC affiliate WHEC, but it didn't respond to Friday's confrontation because the initial 911 call didn't warrant it, Warren said.

"There were a number of events happening at once at this location, all of which required a police response," she said.

She added that the city aims to provide a joint response between police and the crisis team to "improve how we protect our community."


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## Sooty (Nov 1, 2018)

Snow in the face would work too - sorry - they shouldn't have intended to transport her. Should've asked for an ETA on EMS... tell them to "push it" (  ) if they had to.


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