# Liability question......



## Zorba222 (Jun 29, 2005)

Ok....hypothetical question...let's assume that a small college has established a campus police department that requires its' officers to be SSPO certified. Upon gaining that certification, the college decides that they do not want to arm the officers with anything...no handcuffs, pepper spray, baton, taser, nothing. Where does the liability fall, if anywhere, should an incident occur on the campus where the campus police are called and do not respond because they do not have the tools to protect themselves or others? Let's also assume that they called the local police to respond, despite having the authority to act, to the incident but can only stand by until that department gets there. Are they violating their "Duty to Act" oath by not doing something at the scene? Discuss....


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## grn3charlie (Jul 18, 2005)

Far too general a question. Usually in liability, the question of what was reasonable comes up. Active shooter on campus. Is/was it reasonable to expect an unarmed cop to go running toward the flying rounds? That badge ain't no force field.Armed cops are murdered far too often to prove that. Calling the local cops IS acting, No? All that being said, going to work for an unarmed agency and then bitchin about it is like going to the desert and complaining that you can't swim, ya know what you're getting into.


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## NEPS (Aug 29, 2006)

Zorba222 said:


> Ok....hypothetical question...let's assume that a small college has established a campus police department that requires its' officers to be SSPO certified. Upon gaining that certification, the college decides that they do not want to arm the officers with anything...no handcuffs, pepper spray, baton, taser, nothing. Where does the liability fall, if anywhere, should an incident occur on the campus where the campus police are called and do not respond because they do not have the tools to protect themselves or others? Let's also assume that they called the local police to respond, despite having the authority to act, to the incident but can only stand by until that department gets there. Are they violating their "Duty to Act" oath by not doing something at the scene? Discuss....


Big money rides on the answer to your question and similar ones. I do not have that answer, but the journey to that answer begins with Mullins v. Pine Manor College, 389 Mass. 47 (1983), which you may read here: http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/389/389mass47.html


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## Zorba222 (Jun 29, 2005)

grn3charlie said:


> Far too general a question. Usually in liability, the question of what was reasonable comes up. Active shooter on campus. Is/was it reasonable to expect an unarmed cop to go running toward the flying rounds? That badge ain't no force field.Armed cops are murdered far too often to prove that. Calling the local cops IS acting, No? All that being said, going to work for an unarmed agency and then bitchin about it is like going to the desert and complaining that you can't swim, ya know what you're getting into.


I was hoping for a more lucid, well thought out answer...thanks for trying!


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## Zorba222 (Jun 29, 2005)

NEPS said:


> Big money rides on the answer to your question and similar ones. I do not have that answer, but the journey to that answer begins with Mullins v. Pine Manor College, 389 Mass. 47 (1983), which you may read here: http://masscases.com/cases/sjc/389/389mass47.html


Thanks...this is what I was looking for. Someone posed the question and I really didn't know what the correct answer was. This gives me some perspective...thanks again.


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

SSPO?
Broad spectrum of departments/authority/tools there. Therein lies the problem. There are SSPO departments ALL operating with "authority" and by default "oversight" from derr Colonel (Theory). But in the real world, the individual agencies have such differing policies/rules/equipment that the liability lies with them. Sort of. (Practicum) Remember the officers don't work for the State Police. Colonel don't hire/fire these folks. CMR 515 is so vague and doesn't need to be otherwise. There are schools that are armed and riding in cruisers that just don't write V's or make arrests. There are unarmed departments doing full criminal prosecutions. There are "public safety" officers and "campus security" officers with SSPO warrants, but they better not even think about putting cuffs on anybody. Convoluted and inconsistent mess. In any event, any State School still doing SSPO is just plain stupid. But we have heard that before somewhere right?


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## grn3charlie (Jul 18, 2005)

Zorba222 said:


> I was hoping for a more lucid, well thought out answer...thanks for trying!


A more lucid, well thought out answer?? Let me tell you something. With over a couple of decades in this business in both armed and unarmed departments, my answer is in fact well thought out. My bullshit detector goes way off the charts with your asking for someone else. Your question is too general = no scenarios. Think you'll find a lawyer who thinks reasonableness has nothing to do with liability? Good luck with that! What do you want to know? Your department won't arm you with the tools you mention so you want to know if it's cool to arm yourself with them? Yeah, good luck with that one too. Your department will separate themselves far from you, you're on your own for going outside of policy, Little something else for you, in this business liability is one of the most overused and least understood.concepts out there. You pose a question on the forum and end with "discuss." Sorry it wasn't what you were looking for. Next time end with "discuss only if you agree with me" Now GFYS!


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## Goose (Dec 1, 2004)

*Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone*

*By* LINDA GREENHOUSE
Published: June 28, 2005

WASHINGTON, June 27 - The Supreme Court ruled on Monday that the police did not have a constitutional duty to protect a person from harm, even a woman who had obtained a court-issued protective order against a violent husband making an arrest mandatory for a violation.

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/28scotus.html?_r=0


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

mpd61 said:


> SSPO?
> Broad spectrum of departments/authority/tools there. Therein lies the problem. There are SSPO departments ALL operating with "authority" and by default "oversight" from derr Colonel (Theory). But in the real world, the individual agencies have such differing policies/rules/equipment that the liability lies with them. Sort of. (Practicum) Remember the officers don't work for the State Police. Colonel don't hire/fire these folks. CMR 515 is so vague and doesn't need to be otherwise. There are schools that are armed and riding in cruisers that just don't write V's or make arrests. There are unarmed departments doing full criminal prosecutions. There are "public safety" officers and "campus security" officers with SSPO warrants, but they better not even think about putting cuffs on anybody. Convoluted and inconsistent mess. In any event, any State School still doing SSPO is just plain stupid. But we have heard that before somewhere right?


All the more reason this state needs a post system badly! Every one who wears a "police" patch should be trained to the same standards


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## Zorba222 (Jun 29, 2005)

grn3charlie said:


> A more lucid, well thought out answer?? Let me tell you something. With over a couple of decades in this business in both armed and unarmed departments, my answer is in fact well thought out. My bullshit detector goes way off the charts with your asking for someone else. Your question is too general = no scenarios. Think you'll find a lawyer who thinks reasonableness has nothing to do with liability? Good luck with that! What do you want to know? Your department won't arm you with the tools you mention so you want to know if it's cool to arm yourself with them? Yeah, good luck with that one too. Your department will separate themselves far from you, you're on your own for going outside of policy, Little something else for you, in this business liability is one of the most overused and least understood.concepts out there. You pose a question on the forum and end with "discuss." Sorry it wasn't what you were looking for. Next time end with "discuss only if you agree with me" Now GFYS!


You're right...I guess it is too much to ask for some people to think outside of the traditional boundaries...enjoy your own opinions.


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## Zorba222 (Jun 29, 2005)

Goose said:


> *Justices Rule Police Do Not Have a Constitutional Duty to Protect Someone*
> 
> *By*LINDA GREENHOUSE
> Published: June 28, 2005
> ...


 thank you


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## Zorba222 (Jun 29, 2005)

Wolfman said:


> "Duty to Act"?
> http://www.policeone.com/legal/arti...cops-confusion-over-the-public-duty-doctrine/
> 
> Riss v. City of New York, 22 N.Y.2d 579, 293 NYS2d 897, 240 N.E.2d 860 (N.Y. Ct. of Ap. 1958); Keane v. City of Chicago, 98 Ill. App.2d 460, 240 N.E.2d 321 (1968); Morgan v. District of Columbia, 468 A.2d 1306 (D.C. Ct. of Ap. 1983); Calogrides v. City of Mobile, 475 So.2d 560 (S.Ct. A;a. 1985); Morris v. Musser, 478 A.2d 937 (1984); Davidson v. City of Westminster, 32 C.3d 197, 185 Cal.Rptr. 252, 649 P.2d 894 (S.Ct. Cal. 1982); Chapman v. City of Philadelphia, 434 A.2d 753 (Sup.Ct. Penn. 1981); Weutrich v. Delia, 155 N.J. Super 324, 326, 382 A.2d 929, 930 (1978); Sapp v. City of Tallahassee, 348 So.2d 363 (Fla.Ct. of Ap. 1977); Simpson's Food Fair v. Evansville, 272 N.E. 2d 871 (Ind.Ct. of Ap.); Silver v. City of Minneapolis, 170 N.W.2d 206 (S.Ct. Minn. 1969) and Bowers v. DeVito, 686 F.2d 61 (7th Cir. 1982).


 Thank you


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

> All the more reason this state needs a post system badly! Every one who wears a "police" patch should be trained to the same standards​


The Academy-trained SSPOs are all trained to the same standards, its that different schools utilize their departments in different ways. Some campus PD's run essentially the same as a small-to-medium sized police department, and some act as little more than security guards who open doors and give people rides back to the dorms. Administration feels since that they pay the bills, they will run their department exactly how they see fit, including what equipment to issue them, if any. This is the conundrum of private or quasi-private entities running "police" departments.


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## Dan Stark (Aug 2, 2005)

Zorba222 said:


> You're right...I guess it is too much to ask for some people to think outside of the traditional boundaries...enjoy your own opinions.


You sound like a wet blanket. His original post was tame for masscops, and full of truth actually.


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

Killjoy said:


> The Academy-trained SSPOs are all trained to the same standards, its that different schools utilize their departments in different ways. Some campus PD's run essentially the same as a small-to-medium sized police department, and some act as little more than security guards who open doors and give people rides back to the dorms. Administration feels since that they pay the bills, they will run their department exactly how they see fit, including what equipment to issue them, if any. This is the conundrum of private or quasi-private entities running "police" departments.


Eliminate sspo acadmey and R/I academy and train all police officers in the state to same initial training stanard then those schools that choose to have security can have just that and those that choose police can have trained police...


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## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

Training all law enforcement the same is fine if they were all doing the same job. The reason MA has an SSPO I'm sure is due to the fact if they sent campus officers thru a municipal police academy, more often than not, would result in that officer eventually leaving for a municipal police department position. I'm sure the SSPO academy is sufficient to train one to police a college campus.


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## Dan Stark (Aug 2, 2005)

No. Imo, it would force the schools to stop treating their officers like retarded half cop step children in order to retain them. Between 22c s63, SMEATON, and criminal c90, there is already really no difference between what I can do vs a muni... and I can guarantee that my money and bennies are comparable to most, and certainly blows away small towns. Rumor has it we've got a bunch of non retirement age muni cops applying to a current open position we have


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

PBC FL Cop said:


> Training all law enforcement the same is fine if they were all doing the same job. The reason MA has an SSPO I'm sure is due to the fact if they sent campus officers thru a municipal police academy, more often than not, would result in that officer eventually leaving for a municipal police department position. I'm sure the SSPO academy is sufficient to train one to police a college campus.


Your post implies that policing a college is a lesser job... You are 100% wrong there are state and private schools that do twice/three times the police work of some muni.... Many other states use a post system and require all (campus/muni/state) to attend the same acadmey


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## USM C-2 (Oct 27, 2010)

Having done both... 25 years muni, now 8 years campus, I can say that if you are losing employees, look at your internal pay, benefits and practices. Don't blame outside forces.

Want to attract and keep good people? *Pay* and *treat* them well.

And, yeah, some campus jobs are at least as busy as some municipal jobs. My campus is in a city, with a metropolitan area population of over 100,000. Drugs, guns, gangs. We make about 200 arrests a year. And, yes, we are trained to the same standards as any other officer outside of the Highway Patrol. Do officers move from job to job? Some do, many don't. Their choice.


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## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

samadam78 said:


> Your post implies that policing a college is a lesser job... You are 100% wrong there are state and private schools that do twice/three times the police work of some muni.... Many other states use a post system and require all (campus/muni/state) to attend the same acadmey


No I'm not saying lesser at all, just stating that they are different jobs is all.


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

PBC FL Cop said:


> No I'm not saying lesser at all, just stating that they are different jobs is all.


With that said so is being an officer in quincy or brockton then some rural town in western mass yet both depts are expected to train to the same mptc standard for full time
Officers


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

*FUCK SSPO!!!!!! (At State Schools)*


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## niteowl1970 (Jul 7, 2009)

mpd61 said:


> *FUCK SSPO!!!!!! (At State Schools)*


You should copyright that and sell the rights.


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## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

samadam78 said:


> With that said so is being an officer in quincy or brockton then some rural town in western mass yet both depts are expected to train to the same mptc standard for full time
> Officers


Is working in Brookfield the same as working in Boston, obviously not and would life be easier if every municipality had their own academy, of course, but they do not. But saying that campus policing and municipal policing are the same is just not true. I'm not saying that one is better than the other but they are clearly different than town, city, county and state law enforcement. City police answer to a mayor and city council, town police answer to a town manager and board of selectman, county sheriff's answer to county commisioners and the voters, and state police answer to the Governor and Secretary of Public Safety, while Campus police answer to their college officials.


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

PBC FL Cop said:


> Is working in Brookfield the same as working in Boston, obviously not and would life be easier if every municipality had their own academy, of course, but they do not. But saying that campus policing and municipal policing are the same is just not true. I'm not saying that one is better than the other but they are clearly different than town, city, county and state law enforcement. City police answer to a mayor and city council, town police answer to a town manager and board of selectman, county sheriff's answer to county commisioners and the voters, and state police answer to the Governor and Secretary of Public Safety, while Campus police answer to their college officials.


Regardless of who they answer to all of those that you just named off have the same duty to enforce the laws of the state and uphold the constitution. All im saying is that there should be a post sytem in place that requires all police officers to have the same initial training. Is a car stop on a campus any less dangerous then a car stop on a city street? Last i checked there are college campuses in fitcbburg,boston,worcester,springfield,brockton etc... Im pretty sure those guys and girls have been in some dangerous spots and they should be given the proper initial training. If the school doesnt want that then have a security dept and call the locals when you need police like most of the schools in rhode island


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## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

Good post. I see what you're saying, the fundamentals of policing don't change, just because the patrol area does.


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## new guy (Sep 16, 2005)

PBC FL Cop said:


> *Is working in Brookfield the same as working in Boston,* obviously not and would life be easier if every municipality had their own academy, of course, but they do not. But saying that campus policing and municipal policing are the same is just not true. .


You make a valid point regarding the difference in policing in Brookfield and Boston but then you go back to lumping municpal policing together and state that it's different than campus policing. They ALL have their differences, small, medium, large municpality, state, campus, large campus, small campus, state campus, etc... Differences among and within each classification. Then there are also regional differences, Florida versus Alaska etc.... etc.. etc... They also ALL have some degree of similarities, they are all sworn to preserve peace and uphold the US Constitution, operate within the framework of there state and local laws, and are exposed to numerous risks that are inherent with police work from all walks of life. A statewide recruit curricullumm to address these similar fundamentals in policing under a POST system makes total sense. Agencies always reserve the right to adopt whatever type of in-house (agency specific) training program they feel appropriate once the recruit graduates, but they should all have the same standard baseline fundamental recruit training.


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## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

Campus policing is different from municipal policing by it's very nature. Yes police work is basically the same whether you are a campus, local, county or state officer but policing a campus is different from policing a town, city or county. I've worked them all and in my experience campus law enforcement is different from municipal, county or state. If I were being hired by a campus police department I would want to attend an academy that trained me to be a campus police officer, not a town, city or state cop.


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

You just contradicted yourself in that statement....you say that police work is basically the same then you say policing a town is different then a campus.... Its not the academy's job to prepare you for where you will work that is what fto is for. The academy is to give you the BASIC foundation of police work and therefore ALL police officers should have the same entry level training.


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## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

Police tactics and the law are basically the same is what I am saying. I should ask this question - do you feel that the campus police academy is inadequate to prepare a campus police officer for their career or do you just feel everyone should attend the same academy?


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## Edmizer1 (Aug 27, 2006)

Training in POST states is still different between agencies. I have friends that work in a major city in Texas which is a POST state. They tell me that having a basic POST cert will really only qualify you for certain agencies. Although any agency could legally hire anyone with a POST cert, most major agencies make you go through their academy. One friend told me that 50% of the people in his 6 month academy already had POST certificates. These people just didn't have to take license exam at the end of the academy. The ironic thing is that many other agencies within the state will accept major city recruit academy training for transferring officers but won't consider candidates with just basic POST certs.


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

PBC FL Cop said:


> Police tactics and the law are basically the same is what I am saying. I should ask this question - do you feel that the campus police academy is inadequate to prepare a campus police officer for their career or do you just feel everyone should attend the same academy?


I think the sspo academy does a fine job at preparing officers i just believe everyone should be trained to the same basic minimum standards .... How can you say police tactic and law are the same and then not agree that the initial training should be the same as well?



Edmizer1 said:


> Training in POST states is still different between agencies. I have friends that work in a major city in Texas which is a POST state. They tell me that having a basic POST cert will really only qualify you for certain agencies. Although any agency could legally hire anyone with a POST cert, most major agencies make you go through their academy. One friend told me that 50% of the people in his 6 month academy already had POST certificates. These people just didn't have to take license exam at the end of the academy. The ironic thing is that many other agencies within the state will accept major city recruit academy training for transferring officers but won't consider candidates with just basic POST certs.


Right but everyone is trained to the same minimum standards some larger agencies choose to add to that training with their own academy but at the end they all need to have passed the same license exam and minimum hours and standard classes


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## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

MA has a campus police academy, why would a campus recruit want to be trained by a municipal academy rather than an SSPO if their goal is to become a campus police officer? I would think one would want to go to an academy that best prepares them for their chosen profession. If I were going to be a town police officer, I wouldn't want to go through the SPA.


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

PBC FL Cop said:


> MA has a campus police academy, why would a campus recruit want to be trained by a municipal academy rather than an SSPO if their goal is to become a campus police officer? I would think one would want to go to an academy that best prepares them for their chosen profession. If I were going to be a town police officer, I wouldn't want to go through the SPA.


Your missing the point.... Its wrong to have those officers attend a "lesser" academy... Learning the specifics of working at the college should be done during fto Just like learning the specifics of your city/town is done during fto... Also there are a few colleges in this state that routinely back up city officers shouldnt all officers on scene be trained to the same basic standards? Correct me if im wrong but to work at univ of miami or ucf or fsu etc all officers must have a basic florida law enforcement certification right? Do you think that isnt necessary?


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## Dan Stark (Aug 2, 2005)

My retarded 'municipal trained' supervisor just got his ass handed to him in a fight... maybe he should have attended my campus academy, and he would have known what to do.

Rofl
#stayinuroffice


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## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

I don't look as the SSPO as a "lesser" academy than the municipal, I see it as a specialized academy for campus police, which is beneficial to the campus officer. FL is a different world than MA is every way including law enforcement. MA has a different academy for most agencies; MSP, Sheriff, City, Town and Campus. FL has one academy for all except FHP, which still offers a condenced 8-wk academy for certified LEO's.


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

PBC FL Cop said:


> I don't look as the SSPO as a "lesser" academy than the municipal, I see it as a specialized academy for campus police, which is beneficial to the campus officer. FL is a different world than MA is every way including law enforcement. MA has a different academy for most agencies; MSP, Sheriff, City, Town and Campus. FL has one academy for all except FHP, which still offers a condenced 8-wk academy for certified LEO's.


Your making my point! Mass needs to eliminate these academies and go to a one academy system like Florida and many other states.Tell me this then why does mass include the umass system in the mptc but not the state schools? The umass campuses are colleges right? Most of the schools recognize the importance of the full mptc academy many of the state schools and larger private schools send officers to the full time academy. The sspo academy was a good idea years ago when campus police were mostly unarmed security with arrest powers. Campus policing has changed drastically in the last decade and as with all other police training in mass the state is behind the times


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## LGriffin (Apr 2, 2009)

I don't discriminate. Either you've got it or you don't regardless of where you graduated.
Every academy in MA has it's positives and negatives but the common theme that unites them is that none eliminate as many recruits as they should.


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## USM C-2 (Oct 27, 2010)

niteowl1970 said:


> You should copyright that and sell the rights.


Fuck, you should get t-shirts made and sell the t-shirts.


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## Dan Stark (Aug 2, 2005)

Has anyone FUCKED SSPO lately?


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## USM C-2 (Oct 27, 2010)

PBC FL Cop said:


> Campus policing is different from municipal policing by it's very nature. Yes police work is basically the same whether you are a campus, local, county or state officer but policing a campus is different from policing a town, city or county. I've worked them all and in my experience campus law enforcement is different from municipal, county or state. If I were being hired by a campus police department I would want to attend an academy that trained me to be a campus police officer, not a town, city or state cop.


Not to pick on PBC FL Cop, of whom I think highly.

But... I have also done both. And, I sit on our hiring boards. We are happy to get an academy trained, POST-certified officer. We can train them ourselves in the specifics of campus po-leecing.

OK, I just wrote and deleted several paragraphs. Sorry, but after 12 hours of driving I'm semi-lucid and half in the bag. Bottom line is, the campus world is unique. We know more about our inhabitants than any muni officer ever could. I'm currently unable to express this cogently. Perhaps later.


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## bok (Mar 28, 2009)

The Mass. S.P.A. holds three types of police academies; the M.S.P. trooper academy (state troopers), the Municipal Training Academy (both city,town & college agencies) and the S.S.P.O. Academy (college / university, d.m.h.p.d. Etc).
The municipal police academies train city, town and colleges agencies.
The M.B.T.A.Police Academy train Transit officers, city, town and college agencies. 
The County Sheriff Agencies hold their respective agency academies.
The Mass D.O.C. hold their correction officer academy.
Too many academies. Police officer agency specific knowledge is learned during field training.


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## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

I'm not opposed to a single academy system, makes life much easier for everyone but at the same time I understand the reasoning behind the multiple academy approach both from a specialized theory as well as a retention and recruiting standpoint. The "lesser" academy theory often times stem from an ego or inferiority complex and those won't typically be eliminated by a police academy regardless of where the academy is held.


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## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

Just to be clear i dont consider the sspo academy a lesser academy thats why i used quotes... Its harder then some of the soft mptc acadmeies for sure.


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## PBC FL Cop (Oct 22, 2003)

No argument there


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## BxDetSgt (Jun 1, 2012)

Zorba222 said:


> You're right...I guess it is too much to ask for some people to think outside of the traditional boundaries...enjoy your own opinions.


 Dude , not for nothing but Charlie knows what he is talking about, just because you are not getting the answer you are looking for does not mean you should get upset.


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## BxDetSgt (Jun 1, 2012)

Tactics and training should be standard for all, however it is obvious that the JOBS are unique. Campus Oficers have two distict systems they can and do operate under. The state c'j' system, and the university system. Others only have the state system. The difference between jobs is not really what the job is, but WHERE the job is. A university officer in metro Boston is going to see more and do more than a State Trooper in some parts of western Mass. The car stop is going to have the same inherrent dangers in Brockton, B.U., or Brookfield. The B.U. and Brockton officers will have much more real world experience in dealing with what may happen during that stop than a Brookfield Officer. An academy can only train you on how to react, but real world experience teaches you how to act.


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## grn3charlie (Jul 18, 2005)

Well looks like zorba took his ball and went home. Good for you. Come here and talk shit to people who know what they are talking about. His mind won't change and that's fine. I just hope that his foolishness does not get another cop hurt. So yeah, take your unauthorized gun out of the ankle holster when the shit hits the fan. When the dust settles, you will have the most lonely feeling in your life and prepare for an anal probe that would make even the TSA go "dayam!"


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## BxDetSgt (Jun 1, 2012)

When he pulls his unauthorized piece out and uses it a whole lot of people he has never sen or heard of are going to have a duty to act. I can tell you that the MSP CPAC Det. are going to have to act, as will the DA and many others. Do not try and be what you are not, be confident in who you are and do your job, that is all.


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