# Palmer police union wants to be involved in civil service study



## niteowl1970

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2012/02/palmer_police_union_wants_to_b.html

By  Lori Stabile, The Republican 

PALMER - The police union has sent a letter to the town manager asking that it be included in any future discussions about the possible elimination of civil service so that "an informed, responsible decision" can take place.

"First of all involve us. We are the ones ultimately affected by this . . . We've had (civil service) here for 70 years," Sgt. Christopher J. Burns, New England Police Benevolent Association Local 071 president, said recently.

Burns said the union was given no official notification that Town Manager Charles T. Blanchard and Police Chief Robert P. Frydryk planned to talk with other police chiefs who do not use the civil service hiring system, and instead learned about it through a newspaper article. 

Blanchard, in his response to Burns, wrote that if it moves forward he will "certainly inform Local 071 and provide an opportunity for the union to offer insight into the matter."

Frydryk said they met with Northampton Police Chief Russell P. Sienkiewicz about the issue, as Sienkiewicz's department does not use the civil service process. Frydryk said he always expected the union would be involved in the process, and said the membership is concerned they might lose some benefits or protections that they have now.


----------



## Harley387

niteowl1970 said:


> Frydryk said he always expected the union would be involved in the process, and said the membership is concerned they might lose some benefits or protections that they have now.


What protections? From what I hear, your department will shitcan anyone they dislike, and then blackball them at random. You call that a Union?


----------



## Inspector71

Ouch!


----------



## Edmizer1

Palmer PD is a busy department and is severely understaffed. I believe they are surrounded on all sides by non-cs towns. The townsfolk have never really supported the PD and I'm not surprised that they want cs out.


----------



## adax

As backwards as civil service is.... I would be careful getting out of it. I was originally hired under civil service and worked for a department that had left civil service. The City waved dollar signs in front of the union at negotiations to get out and we fell for it. Sure, if you were hired under civil service, you were grandfathered but in hind sight, I am sure the union would have never agreed.


----------



## Bloodhound

We were approached about this idea in the beginning of our current negotiations. I am not a fan of civil service for many reasons, but giving it up would be worse.


----------



## Guest

Civil service has a number of issues, but it's still better to have it than not.


----------



## SinePari

It seems like the only benefit would be to remove any outside interference regarding hiring/firing. To each town their own but I'd guess that CS is more appropriate for larger agencies. For the smaller towns the dynamics of policing is completely different. I can see how eliminating CS works for some but not for others.


----------



## Guest

SinePari said:


> It seems like the only benefit would be to remove any outside interference regarding hiring/firing. To each town their own but I'd guess that CS is more appropriate for larger agencies. For the smaller towns the dynamics of policing is completely different. I can see how eliminating CS works for some but not for others.


There once were days when the CS commissioners were very pro-labor in their termination/discipline appeal hearings, resulting in the half-joke that it took an act of Congress for a cop to lose their CS appeal. No longer.....the board is currently pro-management, and since we have the option under contract, we've taken every recent termination case to arbitration, and are 3-0 with an arbitrator (different ones).

Now, the main benefit is a standardized testing procedure....certainly not perfect, but it at least makes it inconvenient for politicians to skirt the legitimate hiring process, and if someone is wrongly bypassed, they stand an excellent chance of being hired on the subsequent class, as CS is not nearly as pro-management in bypass appeals.


----------



## pahapoika

as Delta mentioned CC takes the politics out of the department.

not all of it of course , but if things like seniority,promotions,hiring, etc are important to the membership CC is better than management making it up as they go along


----------



## Foxy85

Edmizer1 said:


> Palmer PD is a busy department and is severely understaffed. *I believe they are surrounded on all sides by non-cs towns*. The townsfolk have never really supported the PD and I'm not surprised that they want cs out.


Ware is Civil Circus


----------



## Macop

SinePari said:


> It seems like the only benefit would be to remove any outside interference regarding hiring/firing. To each town their own but I'd guess that CS is more appropriate for larger agencies. For the smaller towns the dynamics of policing is completely different. I can see how eliminating CS works for some but not for others.


That makes no sence. The same type of dynamics exist in all size agencies. The dynamics of policing do not change that. I am basing that on my experience of having worked for hill towns to a large city and a few in between. In fact I would say CS is needed more in the small towns"


----------



## mpd61

+1


----------



## Kilvinsky

Delta784 said:


> There once were days when the CS commissioners were very pro-labor in their termination/discipline appeal hearings, resulting in the half-joke that it took an act of Congress for a cop to lose their CS appeal. No longer.....the board is currently pro-management, and since we have the option under contract, we've taken every recent termination case to arbitration, and are 3-0 with an arbitrator (different ones).
> 
> Now, the main benefit is a standardized testing procedure....certainly not perfect, but it at least makes it inconvenient for politicians to skirt the legitimate hiring process, and if someone is wrongly bypassed, they stand an excellent chance of being hired on the subsequent class, as CS is not nearly as pro-management in bypass appeals.


We both know someone who benefitted greatly from THAT type of ruling! How's he doing Delta?


----------



## Guest

Kilvinsky said:


> We both know someone who benefitted greatly from THAT type of ruling! How's he doing Delta?


Haven't seen him yet.....the n00bs now do their field training strictly on days, in order to avoid paying them night differential, even though they're going straight to midnights once field training is done.

Train them in daylight, then send them to work for real in the dark....makes sense to someone, apparently, but it saves a few bucks that could be put to better use by paying a lieutenant on non-competitive overtime to do........no one knows.

BTW....notice that the _Patriot Ledger _no longer publishes QPD salaries every year?

Gee.....I wonder why that is?


----------



## CJIS

Face it there needs to be a better hiring system either way. CS Sucks and if it is to work it needs to be re-born. The Alternative way of hiring is no better.

These past few years the CS division for some odd reason thought they would administer Basic Police officer exam two years in a row. Why? So they could get more money? Did someone's kid turn 21? 

Then they allowed depts. to choose which year test to hire off of. What the hell was the point in that? 

The test itself is a mixed up mess of Multiple choice questions that have little to do with Police work. The supposed Psych part of the test is a joke. They are to Spot consistency but the questions themselves are half ass. How many times do you have to ask if a candidate likes to persuade people? "Are you good a persuading people?" "Do you Like Persuading people?" Do you often persuade people?" Give me a freaking break! 

The tests should be administered by each PD when they are hiring and reviewed by that PD as well as a neutral party from the CS commission or from another PD. The test should be tailored to what the dept is looking for. Instead of simple multi choice I would like to see a Portion be a Mock Police Report that the candidate must write out. If a candidate cannot write a report that will stand up in court WTH good is it? 

See if a candidate knows the difference between a Misdemeanor and a felony.
See if a candidate knows what ages a Juvenile is considered in MA.
See if a candidate knows what Probable Cause is.
Ask these questions! none of the CS tests I have taken ever asked these!

They should be asking questions like have you ever had to defend yourself from physical attack. Or hell can you defend yourself in a physical attack?

Instead of feeding the tests through a scantron machine they should have open answer questions such a asking o questions like how do you handle verbal abuse. Name a Time you handled stress at work etc. To me that would be far more worth the $125 for the test and the PD would be getting much better candidates.

These tests can and should use the CS system as the hiring Guideline for that particular PD, Vets Pref, Resident, Test Score Etc. 

As it stands now you take the CS test, choose the limited Depts. you want, and half the time none of those dept. have any open positions to hire for. You have to change to some dept that is 30+ miles away and pray there are not residents ahead of you.


----------



## Edmizer1

My PD is very unique in that we are non-cs to get hired and promoted but we have "tenure" protection under cs after 3 years full-time. Basically, we can get a cs "just cause" hearing for firing/discipline only. I'm told there are a total of 3 depts in Mass like this. We got it by a special act in 1972. Our system seems like the best of both worlds and has worked good for 40 years. I'm not sure why there are not more agencies that are set up like us.


----------



## Edmizer1

I did a thesis on Mass civil service in college. I found out some very interesting things. Any CS department can hold their own test if they want. They just have to jump through hoops to get it approved by CS. CS will also provide no funding for the process if an agency goes it alone. It seems that CS agencies are just content to let CS handle it. I also learned that non-CS depts can use the CS testing system if they want but they are under no obligation to follow the results.


----------



## Guest

CJIS said:


> The test itself is a mixed up mess of Multiple choice questions that have little to do with Police work. The supposed Psych part of the test is a joke. They are to Spot consistency but the questions themselves are half ass. How many times do you have to ask if a candidate likes to persuade people? "Are you good a persuading people?" "Do you Like Persuading people?" Do you often persuade people?" Give me a freaking break


I also used to think that standardized psychological testing was horse shit, until I received formal training in it. Trust me, they all have a very high degree of validity, as proven in countless research projects. Even the MMPI, which as bizarre a test as you'll ever take, is very reliable in spotting problem candidates. Certainly not foolproof, but there most definitely is a method to the madness.



CJIS said:


> The test should be tailored to what the dept is looking for. Instead of simple multi choice I would like to see a Portion be a Mock Police Report that the candidate must write out. If a candidate cannot write a report that will stand up in court WTH good is it?


Would you like to see that because that's something you think you'd do well on?



CJIS said:


> See if a candidate knows the difference between a Misdemeanor and a felony.
> See if a candidate knows what ages a Juvenile is considered in MA.
> See if a candidate knows what Probable Cause is.
> Ask these questions! none of the CS tests I have taken ever asked these!
> 
> They should be asking questions like have you ever had to defend yourself from physical attack. Or hell can you defend yourself in a physical attack?


That's what the police academy is for.

When I was selected for the mounted unit, I had never been on a horse in my life, unless you count the toy horse ride outside the King's Department Store in Quincy when I was a kid. The instructors at the Boston PD Mounted Academy were pleased to hear that; when I asked why, the lead instructor said "You're not going to have any bad habits for me to break". You should enter the academy with a clean slate.

As mentioned in another thread, there is nothing more aggravating than a Criminal Justice college student trying to tell a cop how to do their job. For one, my Criminal Law instructor at Quincy College (lawyer) had absolutely no clue what the 5 rights of arrest are in Massachusetts, until I told him. A little knowledge can be a dangerous thing.

You may not like the CS system, maybe because you haven't been hired full-time yet, but until someone comes up with a better system to remove nepotism and politics from the hiring & disciplinary equations, I'll stick with it.


----------



## SinePari

Delta784 said:


> I also used to think that standardized psychological testing was horse shit, until I received formal training in it. Trust me, they all have a very high degree of validity, as proven in countless research projects. Even the MMPI, which as bizarre a test as you'll ever take, is very reliable in spotting problem candidates. Certainly not foolproof, but there most definitely is a method to the madness.


Man I took that damn thing so many times, I wish I had a card to swipe and get it over with.



Delta784 said:


> You may not like the CS system, maybe because you haven't been hired full-time yet, but until someone comes up with a better system to remove nepotism and politics from the hiring & disciplinary equations, I'll stick with it.


I certainly would not have been hired with no family in the system or juice. A high score and vet points is all I had.


----------



## pahapoika

maybe a return to the "blue book" ?

from what i've been told candidates years ago would study a book and then take the test.

believe the fire department had something similar as well. seemed like a good idea.


----------



## Guest

SinePari said:


> Man I took that damn thing so many times, I wish I had a card to swipe and get it over with.


I took the original MMPI for my first job, which was even more strange than the MMPI-2 that I took for my current job.

So.....were your stools black & tarry?



SinePari said:


> I certainly would not have been hired with no family in the system or juice. A high score and vet points is all I had.


Same here.



pahapoika said:


> maybe a return to the "blue book" ?
> 
> from what i've been told candidates years ago would study a book and then take the test.


Yup....the Blue Book. We were issued re-prints in the academy, there was actually a lot of good information in them.


----------



## Inspector71

Ah yes...The Blue Book, and the Brown Book too!


----------



## Tom

reading pd just voted out cs and will become non-cs in July.


----------

