# Question Regarding a Career in LE (Long Read)



## Guest (Nov 22, 2008)

Okay, this will end up being a long read- I apologize, and I expect to at least get flamed to hell and back, but this is something I need to ask those that are in Law Enforcement currently or have retired from service. I may have posted this in an inappropriate forum, but I could not find a better spot. I could just be ignorant, though.

I never really saw Law Enforcement as something I would like to do until recently, after I made a few jokes about it to a firefighter friend of mine then actually did some hard research and deep thought on the subject. And so I sit here with a high school diploma, a great deal of common sense (or at least that's what I'd like to think), and enough of a level head wondering just what others who have been here think of this.

I have been reading threads on this forum regarding education and training for a career in Law Enforcement; doing a lot of research into what the job entails. Many advocate a college degree, many advocate the military. 

I have never been one for academics. I did well in high school (or as well as I had to in order to pass) because I wanted it over with; I felt as though I was wasting my time. A classroom setting is not a place for me, though I tried a semester in college and hated it (for the record, I argued with my professors a lot). A stint in the military has been out of the question from day one due to familial reasons; I am an only child and I do not have any cousins directly to carry on the bloodline and family name, which is important to me. 

I do have years of martial arts training, however, and while most of the formal material has long been forgotten I have retained my basic fighting abilities. They could use some polishing and likely will, but there you have it.

I have come to realize that this is something that I really, truly want to do; regardless of poor pay and intense requirements. I believe at this moment that I have what it takes, at least in raw talent, to do the job just as good if not better after I am properly trained than those with degrees. 

It's not for the gun and the badge. If I wanted guns I would have joined the Marines and signed up for infantry. If I wanted to be the big man I would have gone to college for four years and then gone into the military as an officer. I live in Spencer, MA as you may already know and while I've always wanted to help my community (and others) in some way, politics is the game of cooler heads and snakes, at least in this state, and volunteering makes no money. Basically, public office is a joke.

Apparently Law Enforcement makes crap money as well, but for all intents and purposes as long as I can BARELY survive I will be content. Deval Patrick is trying to take away police details (and has succeeded to a point), but I don't believe the unions or Officers in general will stand for details being taken away entirely. 

Also, I can safely state that I'm not in this to be popular, as no one likes cops anyway. Frankly, the fact most of you go out and do your jobs day in and day out for a mass of people that don't even care if you and your family get to eat at night is astounding. For this and many other reasons do I have the utmost respect for you all. 

But I'm stuck. I know that my place is not college or the military. I am all for education pertaining to the job, and intend to educate myself how to do the job to the best of my ability and then some, but it seems that degrees are so commonplace that they are hardly worth the paper they are printed on. 

The skills I have aren't special. I find myself fairly good at analyzing and reading people and their behavior. One of my hobbies is taking a situation involving people I know and trying to run it through my head, predicting what they would do given certain circumstances. I love solving problems directly involving people. Human beings are dumb, fascinating creatures.
As said, I do have martial arts experience and still retain a rudimentary fighting ability that, again, needs to be polished up a bit. Soon I will be attempting to obtain my LTC Class A and will likely take to shooting ravenously.

I am by no means a big guy. I am roughly 5'8", maybe slightly taller, weigh about 150 pounds. Mind you, due to a lack of work, I weigh less as my job is very physical and I have not had the workouts I've needed to bulk up a bit. The current economy has meant that we get no jobs (I am an independent subcontractor working in the architectural salvage field- we hand dismantle pre-1850 buildings), and thus my body takes a beating as a result. I am partially to blame as I should be working out much more frequently than I do.

When I apply myself and add pressure, I normally find myself meeting or exceeding what is requested of me. Granted, if it's not something I enjoy or want to do, I kind of slack a bit. Regardless, I do have a strong work ethic and will do just about anything asked of me so long as I'm not mistreated. 

A downside is that I am a very proud individual, can be rather stubborn, and can be very argumentative/dismissive. By no means am I a complete angel in this regard- I usually am very brutally honest even with my closest friends and family members. When tact calls, however, I've learned over the years to bite my tongue. 

I do have a few family members in Law Enforcement, though they are extraordinarily busy and I do not want to interrupt them with such foolish drivel. Don't take that as an insult. I am aware many of you are extremely busy, but I realize I must tell this to someone and see what they think, and I can think of no one better than a multitude of people that have been where I am.

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So given what you know based on what you have read and any questions you may still would like answered, do you believe I have what it takes to succeed in Law Enforcement, or at this point even get hired? I am finding it seems as though I am a long shot considering how many vets/college graduates there are around me. 

Thank you for your time in reading this. I understand it is a simple question along with much rambling. If I could give you back the time you just wasted reading something you see all the time, I would. Again, thank you, even for the flames and spelling/grammar corrections.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2008)

LawMan3 said:


> wow that post almost burned away a whole half hour of my shift
> 
> In all honesty though, if you take the CS exam, you had better score a 10. And still your chances at that are not as great as someone with vet status or a degree or both. Some departments now are requiring something like 60 credits (associates degree) in order to be considered. Perhaps moving to another state would be a viable option. You're in a tight spot, but keep your head up. I'll leave any further input to my esteemed colleagues.


Thank you for your reply. Again, I apologize for the long read (unless you were bored). 
I do have family in New Hampshire at a family home (IE there IS room for me) but the majority of the people I know reside here in Central MA and currently I'm not so sure if I would be willing to move, at least not right now.


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## DNorth (Jun 6, 2008)

Not going to waste my time or yours by sugar-coating things here...

As the previous poster has told you, without any military service or a college degree, you may want to consider looking for employment elsewhere...not NH, but FL or somewhere down south. Your competition in the northeast will be overwhelming.

If I were you, I would join the military. If you need reasons why, do a search of this forum, there are 1000s of reasons why it would benefit someone planning a career in LE. Not just veterans' preference, there are many other ways it will help you. The military will instill discipline, teamwork, powers of observation, and hopefully some leadership skills into you. Among many other things. 

If you do not like academics, I don't know what you expect a police academy to be like. It's not all DT, shooting, and doing scenarios like you see on TV. It involves many, many long hours of class, good note-taking skills, tests and more tests, reading, comprehension, memorization, etc etc etc. Once you get on the job, you have to keep up to date on the latest case law, decisions, revisions, new laws, etc etc etc. The book learning does not stop at the end of the academy. You are accountable for your actions, and in doing things "by the book" as they say, so you damn well better know what the latest version of "the book" says!

I find this quote especially interesting: "Apparently Law Enforcement makes crap money as well..." I wonder what you are comparing it to, or who planted this idea in your head. I made enough money working just under 10 years in a small town, that I was able to live in a nice condo and have two vehicles and a motorcycle, and very little debt. Granted, overtime helped a lot, but I never felt burnt out or overworked. To put it in perspective, I am now in my second year in Federal law enforcement and my base pay before overtime is only slightly under that of my brother, who is a physician at a prestigious hospital. With the ridiculous amount of OT I work, I probably will take home as much as a highly-skilled surgeon this year. You however have a long, long, LONG way to go before you can even begin to dream of landing an 1811 position. 

"...downside is that I am a very proud individual, can be rather stubborn, and can be very argumentative/dismissive." If you can not change those things about yourself, then good luck making it through the academy. Not only will the DIs rip you to shreds, but working in LE you will need to learn to deal with the general public, and that will require all kinds of "people skills," some of which are the opposite of what you describe. If you should get hired and still have not got ahold of yourself enough to work with any person you come into contact with, then your FTO will hopefully take notice and make your career a very short one.


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2008)

I am and have been extremely good with people. As said, over the years I've learned how to bite my tongue. I know that there'll be a lot of classroom hours in an academy- I'm expecting it and actually looking forward to it (though, apparently, who am I kidding?). If it's something I want, then I have no problem with class. I guess I just didn't want a degree all that badly. 

But you're right- no chance in hell.


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## Beowolf (Jan 27, 2006)

Just to reiterate what others have said. Police jobs in mass and most of the northeast are very competitive. People with military, BA's or MA's and prior LE experience aren't always getting jobs.

If conditions permit and you wer open to relocating. Florida has several police academies which are usually in a comm college setting where you pay your own way through and then start applying to agencies as they have openings. That way you already have what they're looking for. Plus, FL is so big, they always have police/sheriff depts hiring.

The academic part you'll have to adjust to as most police work will require good comprehension skills. OTJ and while in the academy.

In many federal jobs, they have KSA (knowledge skills and abilities) section where they ask you questions about your experience and it must be articulated well to move forward.

You could stay local and look but I think as you're finding out in Ma, its an uphill battle. As other have said and will say, FL may be the way to go,

Any interest in the US Border patrol, I think they may have northeast openings at the canadian border after you spend 1.5 yrs in the south west. Very hard academy and you need to learn spanish but it gets your foot in the door for federal LE positions.

Best of luck


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2008)

Beowolf said:


> Just to reiterate what others have said. Police jobs in mass and most of the northeast are very competitive. People with military, BA's or MA's and prior LE experience aren't always getting jobs.
> 
> If conditions permit and you wer open to relocating. Florida has several police academies which are usually in a comm college setting where you pay your own way through and then start applying to agencies as they have openings. That way you already have what they're looking for. Plus, FL is so big, they always have police/sheriff depts hiring.
> 
> ...


Thanks, luck I will most definitely need.

I've realized that it's an uphill battle and then some. I have a few problems. I'm tied to the northeast. I honestly don't think I could live anywhere else, my very small family is here, this is where I grew up, etc. Crazily, I like it here.

Another problem is that while Florida is probably the best bet, I do not have and will not have the funds to relocate to such a place for a while to come if the economy stays as it is. To a very real extent I am stuck in this state, like it or not, until things pick up.

So for the present I am stuck looking and hoping, in a state where the odds are against me, in a system where the odds are against me. Why? Because I really have no other options at the time. But the Red Sox won the World Series twice in three years, so to some small degree, I do believe in miracles (or just plain old dumb luck).

However, I thank you for your advice. While I may not be able to exactly use it anytime soon, I do appreciate it.


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## DNorth (Jun 6, 2008)

You could also try looking for a dept. that gives you a relocation allowance. The only one I know of (only because a friend of mine almost took the job) is LAPD, but it was only something like $2K, which of course is a drop in the bucket. That may have since changed, or other places may pay more to relocate and/or offer transitional housing or something along those lines. 

Can you tell us why you have not joined the military? If it's personal, then please by all means do not bother. But if you have questions or are uncertain about it, just ask, there are tons of us here who are veterans. Heck, even if you got deployed, you can study for a college degree during your downtime, it would be a win-win situation if you want to stand a chance at getting into a LE career!


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2008)

DNorth said:


> You could also try looking for a dept. that gives you a relocation allowance. The only one I know of (only because a friend of mine almost took the job) is LAPD, but it was only something like $2K, which of course is a drop in the bucket. That may have since changed, or other places may pay more to relocate and/or offer transitional housing or something along those lines.
> 
> Can you tell us why you have not joined the military? If it's personal, then please by all means do not bother. But if you have questions or are uncertain about it, just ask, there are tons of us here who are veterans. Heck, even if you got deployed, you can study for a college degree during your downtime, it would be a win-win situation if you want to stand a chance at getting into a LE career!


I can tell you why I have not joined the military, and I will. While I am all for defending the home country and gaining valuable discipline/skills I would otherwise not learn anywhere else, I am not all too keen on joining the military while there's a war on.

Going off to do something for a government I have no faith in for a purpose I cannot justify... it violates my principles, my very code of ethics. While it would do me LOADS of good, I'm no mercenary. I refuse to fight a war or assist others to fight a war simply for my own gain or the gain of this government. While I care about people and their welfare to a strong degree despite hating every ignorant schmuck out there, I don't care about them enough to violate my own person just for them.

But that's just part of it.

I am an only child in a very small family. Were I to die while deployed my family name and bloodline would die with me as I have no blood siblings and no first cousins, and there are no hope of anymore of either. Not to mention my friends and girlfriend being highly opposed to the idea of me joining the military as well, let alone my family.

Sure, I could die in a car accident or be shot or stabbed as an LEO, but likely by that time I will have had ample time to reproduce and at least try to make sure that the people I left behind would be able to live comfortably.

Probably not the answers you may have been hoping for, but that's the way it goes. I know I'm in for the fight of my life if I want to be a Police Officer in the northeast. By no means am I expecting any of this to be easy. I am ready and willing for everything an academy or populace of a town or a department has to throw at me.

Perhaps my words in my first post may have misled you, but I am usually only stubborn and mouthy with those I'm very close to as when I was in grade school *I learned the hard way*. In all other cases involving the general public my thoughts are filtered before they reach my mouth and I am just as courteous and respectful as anybody else- and not just because it's the right thing to do, but because I actually would like people to be courteous to me.

So far everything else in my life has been a rough, uphill struggle. I have to say at this point I'd be disappointed were this going to be easy.


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## 7costanza (Aug 29, 2006)

> I am not all too keen on joining the military while there's a war on.





> Going off to do something for a government I have no faith in for a purpose I cannot justify... it violates my principles


Wow......good fuckin luck to you...you better put your seatbelt on ...


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2008)

How else am I supposed to do it, then? If joining the military is my only fucking hope, and I mean only, by the way, then I'll fucking do it just for the sake of being able to do something I actually want to do. Aside from that, for all intents and purposes I might as well just give up cause the general consensus seems to be "You're fucked."


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2008)

Kibagari said:


> How else am I supposed to do it, then? If joining the military is my only fucking hope, and I mean only, by the way, then I'll fucking do it just for the sake of being able to do something I actually want to do. Aside from that, for all intents and purposes I might as well just give up cause the general consensus seems to be "You're fucked."


After some thought, a lot of it still being "I'm fucked", I've come to the conclusion that if a career in Law Enforcement is something I really want I'm going to have to make some concessions, and in many cases some downright sacrifices. I just don't know how I'm going to go about it yet, but fighting it the hard way is fucking crazy. Thanks to all who tried to talk some sense into me.

Now I just gotta figure it out.


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## DNorth (Jun 6, 2008)

7costanza said:


> Wow......good fuckin luck to you...you better put your seatbelt on ...


Mmmm indeed...no comment...I'm bowing out of this one to just sit and watch...I have my popcorn and soda at hand...


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2008)

Watch all you want; show's over.

Moderator, may I get this thread closed, please?


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## screamineagle (Jul 11, 2005)

I am also an only son, and deployed twice to two different shitholes. I didnt want to go, didnt like it while I was there, but went anyways. I went for my bro's in my unit who were depending on me as much as I was depending on them. Join the service because you *WANT* to, *BECAUSE YOU LOVE YOUR COUNTRY*, not because it may lead to a police job. Dont become someone who joins for the benefits, then pussies out when the call comes.

remember, the same govt you have no faith in also writes the laws you will have to enforce as a law enforcement officer.


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## Foxy85 (Mar 29, 2006)

Don't want to fight a war you don't believe in?

How about enforcing a law you don't believe in? 

I think LE isn't a viable option for you. Usually one doesn't come here with an attitude, or if they do they don't realize it. I think for you to admit you can have a sharp tongue, and "speak your mind" to a fault, and while pointing out your problems, still continue to make comments such as that, speaks volumes.

I don't know what makes you want to be in LE, you never really explained it, other than you "have a great deal of respect for us" and have thought about it for a while... I can say this... Police work is very para-military in a lot of sense, so if you can't appreciate a serviceman's duty to their goverment, what makes you think you can apply that negative attitude to police work?

No one hates school more than me, but if you attempt to go back, eg. take a clas or two at a time, even that looks good on a resume. The fact that you understand the importance of a degree, and are showing the hiring dept. that you are trying for one, is often enough for them. Writing it off completely is going to hurt your chances.

All and all, based on your comments and reactions to people's comments, I can say with that attitude, I wouldn't want you working alongside me....that is for sure.

And when you say you're proud, I think you're mistaking that for being arrogant.

Good luck in fulfilling your career, you're certainly going to need it.

Perhaps you don't want to inquire about police work with "your family members that are in LE" because they know as well as alot of us, you're not cut out for it...


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## kwflatbed (Dec 29, 2004)

Kibagari said:


> Watch all you want; show's over.
> 
> Moderator, may I get this thread closed, please?


The show is not over till the thread is closed,as of now there is no reason to close it.


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## Pats2009 (Aug 24, 2007)

"I am not all too keen on joining the military while there's a war on."

Yeah, and I'm not keen on becoming a police officer because there are those criminals out there....gimmie a break......


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

Kibagari said:


> I can tell you why I have not joined the military, and I will. While I am all for defending the home country and gaining valuable discipline/skills I would otherwise not learn anywhere else, I am not all too keen on joining the military while there's a war on


Spoken like a true flagman.


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## BLUE BLOOD (Aug 31, 2008)

I think I just had a stroke reading this post!


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2008)

Kibagari,

I say this all seriousness, not trying to bust your balls or be funny;

For the sake of both you and those you might possibly work with some day, please consider another line of work. The attitude you display is 100% counter-productive to being a police officer, and will likely get you or someone else seriously hurt or killed.

The reason the military is usually such good preparation for police work is because you learn how to take orders. In the military, if you're ordered to be deployed to a war zone, you go. It doesn't matter if you happen to agree with the war or not.

Likewise, I've received orders as a police officer I either didn't like or was morally opposed to, but that doesn't matter. If it's a lawful order, you follow it, and deal with your moral crisis or personal objections later. My first summer with my current department, I was forced to work at least a half-dozen midnight overtime shifts when I either had plans for after work, or just didn't feel like it. Guess what? I worked them all without public complaint.

Don't take this personally, but it seems you're the type who would get forced to work an overtime midnight shift in the summer, then go home sick because you didn't want to work, thereby screwing the next guy on the force list. That's not exactly a great career enhancer.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2008)

I appreciate your sentiments, all of you, and I will take your advice and not pursue a career in Law Enforcement. It seems I am not compatible with the job, and I can accept that. Once again, thank you all for responding.


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## kttref (Oct 5, 2004)

Kibagari said:


> I do have a few family members in Law Enforcement, though they are extraordinarily busy and I do not want to interrupt them with such foolish drivel. Don't take that as an insult. I am aware many of you are extremely busy, but I realize I must tell this to someone and see what they think, and I can think of no one better than a multitude of people that have been where I am.


Also, if you can't go to family for support you'll never make it in this profession. Family is a HUGE part of the picture. Guys who have good family support survive. Plain and simple. If you can't go to them with a simple question - you'll have no one to go to when something big comes up.


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## Guest (Nov 23, 2008)

Kibagari said:


> How else am I supposed to do it, then? If joining the military is my only fucking hope, and I mean only, by the way, then I'll fucking do it just for the sake of being able to do something I actually want to do. Aside from that, for all intents and purposes I might as well just give up cause the general consensus seems to be "You're fucked."


Holy crap that is a pansy attitude. Quitting before you even start? I won't even touch your views on the military, because you are getting skewered right now, and it's only going to get worse. I have gotten on the job in the Northeast without joining the military, but not being able to join has been one of my biggest regrets. Do us ALL a favor. Don't serve the country, Don't serve the state.... Do feel free to serve me some fries though. Yes. I do want fries with that.


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