# Oct. 18th 2009 Promotional Exam (and discussion of scores)



## DANIPD

Anyone have any thoughts on the exam? I wasn't too happy with the four questions on penalties for certain crimes.


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## bpd145

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

Agreed! I was extremely shocked on the lack of motor vehicle law and statutory law questions.

I'm guessing I scored somewhere above the freezing point!


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## DANIPD

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

Any idea when scores will be coming out?


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## fra444

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

Hanrahan sent out in his Question of The Day yesterday that it should be out this month. Don't hold your breath! I just keep telling myself the longer it takes for them to post the grades the longer it takes for me to know for sure I failed!!


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## DANIPD

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

Could be anywhere between a 68 and an 88!


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## fra444

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*



DANIPD said:


> Could be anywhere between a 68 and an 88!


With mine I am leaning towards a 62! Everything I studied was not on the test!


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## DANIPD

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

Yeah I'm thinking the state definately made some $$ on the test!


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## fra444

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

LOL they made money and now I hear he results will be out on Feb. 13. May not matter with everyone talking lay offs and demotions! Time will tell


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## DANIPD

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

Yeah I saw on the website today that the scores will be released on Friday...Friday the 13th...How fitting!


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## fra444

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

Aint it?!


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## luige1234

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

How can the state screw up something so simple as a promotion exam??? Got the scores today from the 10/18 Lt. exam and everyone from our department is in the "0" band, which doesn't even appear in their legend.


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## StbbrnMedic

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

So FRA444 can come out of the fetal position now and let go of his blankee??
I tried telling him that couldn't be accurate, and he just balled up and said something about being a failure.


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## fra444

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

*UPDATE!!*

The 0 thing means that no information is entered yet. While there is still no list out together I and some of the guys on my job have gotten our scores. Not overly thrilled with a 3 being that I am used to a 1 to 100 scale but thats what I got.


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## DANIPD

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*

Just got my score...Happy that I passed...


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## 94c

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*



fra444 said:


> *UPDATE!!*
> 
> The 0 thing means that no information is entered yet. While there is still no list out together I and some of the guys on my job have gotten our scores. Not overly thrilled with a 3 being that I am used to a 1 to 100 scale but thats what I got.


I know about the banding of entrance exams.

Are they now banding promotional exams also?


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## DANIPD

I guess the state hired some expert that said that "banding" the scores is better than just a raw score...


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## fra444

*Re: Oct. 18th Promotional Exam*



94c said:


> I know about the banding of entrance exams.
> 
> Are they now banding promotional exams also?


Sadly YUP!

When they send you the hard copy it has your total scope on it. I was a 78.62. Time will tell where that puts me for acting time.


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## Guest

DANIPD said:


> I guess the state hired some expert that said that "banding" the scores is better than just a raw score...


It gives them a lot more wiggle room for patronage and bullshit political games.


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## DANIPD

I understand they lowered the passing score from 70 to 65 as well....


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## 94c

so how does the rule of three work.

Is it going to be the rule of 3 bands?

After all, with the banding system they don't have to justify a bypass even if you had the higher score since you're in the same band.

Like Delta says, this is just a way of getting politics into a system that was built to avoid political patronage.

How ironic...


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## OfficerObie59

*John Scheft/LED Civil Service Petition*

This hit my e-mail box this afternoon from John Scheft's company. For those of you unfamiliar with him, he's an attorney that authors law books for Massachusetts police officers.

Attached to this post is an Adobe PDF of the actual petition he plans to file.

I didn't see what I quickly read if there is any angle being played here; I must admit I haven't reviewed this material thoroughly as I'm short on on time today. Just thought I'd pass it on.

Obie



> TIME SENSITIVE: PETITION TO CIVIL SERVICE COMMISSION
> 
> Dear Colleague:
> 
> After hearing from many of you about the recent changes in scoring for the 2008 civil service promotional examination, I have decided to challenge the process on your behalf. I think this is the most effective way to deal with what has happened.
> 
> As you know, the Human Resources Division (HRD) changed the passing grade levels and "banded" the final scores of candidates. Many officers are skeptical about this unannounced change in longstanding promotional practice, and have communicated their outrage to me.
> 
> For this reason, I am filing a petition with the Civil Service Commission that calls for an investigation and an order to score the exam consistent with past procedures. If you want to review the petition's exact language, please look at the attached document.
> 
> In order for the Commission to consider my petition, it must be supported by at least ten registered voters. Although you may not have participated in the 2008 exam, your endorsement counts because our objection may impact future examinations. Your prompt reply is essential.
> 
> If you want to be part of this effort, you must simply reply to this e-mail with the following language:
> 
> "I am a registered voter in [municipality where you are registered to vote]. I am also a Massachusetts police officer. [note: you may still join the petition even if you are a retired officer or not a police officer at all (e.g., dispatcher); you simply have to be registered to vote] I have read and willingly join the petition requesting that the Civil Service Commission investigate HRD's decision to change the manner in which the 2008 promotional exam was graded. I am deeply concerned about the overall integrity of the civil service system.
> 
> Your full name
> Police Department Address
> Department phone number
> Home phone number
> 
> [Note: we are planning to submit a paper copy of your return e-mail with the petition; we will not electronically transfer your e-mail to anyone or any organization.]
> 
> We will keep you informed as we learn of any action spurred by this petition. Thank you for your support.
> 
> *John Sofis Scheft.*
> 
> Replies to: Kate Geary <[email protected]>


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## DANIPD

*Re: John Scheft/LED Civil Service Petition*

Yeah I got the same message as well. It has to do with the "banding" of the promotional exam scores as they now do with the entry-level civil service exam. More discussion in the thread below:

http://www.masscops.com/forums/showthread.php?t=63440


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## EBPD240

*Re: John Scheft/LED Civil Service Petition*

I just sent mine back...is it just me or does everyone feel that policing in this state is being attacked from every single angle?


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## Big.G

*Re: John Scheft/LED Civil Service Petition*

You're just picking up on it now?


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## EBPD240

*Re: John Scheft/LED Civil Service Petition*

No, but it just seems to be getting worse...if thats possible.


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## sdb29

So does this mean I have to write two checks? One to take the exam and another to ensure that I'm picked from my band? And If I'm promoted does that mean I'm out of the band? and if I am out of the band will Joe Walsh replace me?

This is not good. This is the end of independent thinkers who are willing to butt heads with the administration occasionally for the good of the department, to be replaced by a bunch of kool aide drinking, line toeing, suck-ass syncopants.

The guys that were old timers when I first came on must be rolling in their graves.


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## OfficerObie59

Probably won't even affect me. My department has been doing those "assesment centers" for years now, which gives them flexability of about 10 points.


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## sean37

Did Joe Walsh leave The Eagles to be a cop? wow!


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## sdb29

sean37 said:


> Did Joe Walsh leave The Eagles to be a cop? wow!


No actually Joe Walsh left the James Gang and ended up with the Eagles, but only for a while. I remember going to see the Eagles at the Providence Civic Center in 1978 or 79. They were an hour and a half late- played 25 minutes and were all done.
I was up about as high up as you could be and still be indoors and even I could see that they were- well, high.


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## StbbrnMedic

sdb29 said:


> No actually Joe Walsh left the James Gang and ended up with the Eagles, but only for a while. I remember going to see the Eagles at the Providence Civic Center in *1978 or 79*. They were an hour and a half late- played 25 minutes and were all done.
> I was up about as high up as you could be and still be indoors and even I could see that they were- well, high.


Teehee... I won't tell you how old I was then.


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## sdb29

StbbrnMedic said:


> Teehee... I won't tell you how old I was then.


And ya want to know the worst part? I was already on this job.

Anybody see what I did with my walker?


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## StbbrnMedic

LawMan3 said:


> Fundamentals of detection say you must've been about 4 years old, since your age on masscops states 34
> 
> but that could always be a cover-up


LMAO!!!! I forgot it was listed!!! That's excellent LawMan!!


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## StbbrnMedic

teeheeheee
That's why I do what I do and you do what you do!! lol


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## Robert35

*Banding of Promotional Test Scores*

*Bppa And Mcop Request That Civil Service Commision Hold Speedy Hearing On Legality Of Decision To "Band" Promotional Test Scores*

March 3rd, 2009 by Alan Shapiro 

The Civil Service Commission today held a pre-hearing conference in the "banding" cased filed by Sandulli Grace on behalf of the Mass. Coalition of Police (MCOP) and Boston Police Patrolmen's Association (BPPA). At the hearing, Sandulli Grace attorneys Bryan Decker and Alan Shapiro, along with other appellants, contested the issues with counsel for the Human Resources Division (HRD) for almost two hours. At the end of the hearing, Civil Service Commissioners Bowman and Taylor took the action under advisement, promising to quickly rule on what action the Commission will take, if any.
From the beginning of the hearing, HRD counsel made clear the agency's position that it is entitled to make whatever rules it would like regarding test administration and grading, and that it does not need to justify its decision to any other party. The scope of HRD's hubris was revealed when Commissioner Bowman asked counsel to respond to our argument that "banding" scores violates HRD's own rule requiring that scores "be presented on eligible lists in whole numbers." The HRD attorney replied that the bands, expressed as "Band 7," "Band 6," etc., are "whole numbers." The retort drew audible laughter from the crowd in the hearing room. Atty. Shapiro replied that, presumably, the rule was put into place when HRD went from establishing lists with scores expressed in one or two decimal points to rounded off whole numbers. Therefore, under HRD's logic, HRD could comply with its rule by expressing scores in a system of 1 to 1,000 or 1 to 10,000, and the rule would mean nothing. Atty. Decker added that, with this logic, HRD could make the test results "Pass-Fail," just by assigning only scores of 1 or 2. HRD had no real counter to these arguments but continued to insist that it could do whatever it wanted in establishing lists, provided it was not arbitrary or capricious.
Under questioning from Commissioner Taylor, HRD counsel admitted that HRD had consulted with the chiefs of police regarding banding. When Commissioner Taylor asked if the unions representing police officers were consulted, she replied they had not, suggesting there were too many of them. Sandulli Grace clients MCOP and BPPA, who together represent almost 5,000 police officers, were never consulted by HRD. It became rather obvious whom HRD viewed as more important in this process.
On the larger issue, the Sandulli Grace attorneys contended that banding flew in the face of both the statutory "2N + 1" system, and the overall intention of a civil service system. Quoting from a 2005 Connecticut Supreme Court case which rejected any deviation from the "2N + 1 system," we contended that banding would conflict with the overall design of a governmental civil service system:

www.sandulligraceonline.com


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## DANIPD

It will be interesting to see if anything happens at the hearing...


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## fra444

I'm thrilled its even happening! It will not effect me because of my 78 and the economy but I dont want to see them get away with changing the rules mid stream!


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## EBPD240

*Judge Orders Injunction Preventing HRD from Banding Scores*

Thanks to the Boston Patrolman's Union, MassCop, and their law firm Sandulli Grace PC, a judge ordered an injunction today preventing HRD from using the banding system. The litigation is not over yet but it is a big win for those who oppose the banding system. Click the link below to read the decision:

http://blog.hanrahanconsulting.us/fi...t_decision.pdf


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## sean37

so what would they do with the banded scores from the civil service test given in 2008 that got combined with the 2007 test? what a mess. And isnt it a little late in the game for this......the test is saturday.


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## EBPD240

I am not sure but I think this is just for the promotional exams, sgt, lt and so forth.....


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## OfficerObie59

sean37 said:


> so what would they do with the banded scores from the civil service test given in 2008 that got combined with the 2007 test? what a mess. And isnt it a little late in the game for this......the test is saturday.


If a candidate passed over for initial hire wants to fight it, this decision is good news and gives him or her a foot hold, as all the same reasoning used against banding in the promotional sphere would still apply to entry lists. Traditionally though, civil service has always given a bit more leeway to municipalities to skip over intial hires because so little is known about them, whereas there's a work history with promotional candidates.

A great decision and well articulated by the judge. I suggest reading pages 9-11.

The injuction is a good start, but I can see this war is still in it's opening battle.


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## fra444

Outstanding!!!!

I may get some acting time after all!!


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## EBPD240

OfficerObie said:


> A great decision and well articulated by the judge. I suggest reading pages 9-11.
> 
> Exactly, I personally like this part.
> 
> " While the defendants assert that any delay in the implementation of the new scoring method will impact communities which are attempting to fill vacancies on their police forces, I do not so find. There is nothing which prevents the HRD from issuing eligibility lists in the same fashion that it has done so for many years." -Bruce R Henry, Associate Justice


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## Clancy Wiggum

anyone know when HRD will put of the e list for the last promo test. They will prop. wait to punish us because of the banding injunction even though it's suppose to be out 6 mon. after the exam which would of been yesterday.


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## fra444

Last I knew was everything was on hold because of the list being brought to court. I dont believe anyone knows yet.


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## Big.G

*Rule change irks cops*

Written by APB Staff

The Massachusetts State Civil Service System has quietly made a change in the way exam scores are used as the basis for promotions. From now on, officers taking promotional exams will be put in groups based on their scores, which will allow management to select from the group as opposed to simply going down the list and promoting people who earned the highest scores. For example, officers scoring between 93 and 100 will be put in the same group.

The change was made without a public hearing or any feedback from the unions, and it has ignited controversy among police officers who spend months or even years studying for exams, while spending hundreds of dollars on test fees, private tutoring, and special books.

"It seems to go contrary to the foundation of what civil service is all about: the ability to eliminate political pressures both internally and externally," said James Machado, a Fall River sergeant and executive director of the Massachusetts Police Association.

"Some people have said, 'I don't fit in with the administration.

This was my only chance.

Now I feel that regardless of my grade, I have little or no chance of being promoted.'"

But police chiefs welcome the change, which they hope will give them more flexibility to include qualities such as work ethic, attendance and leadership skills when they decide who in the agency to promote.

The change impacts 1,700 police officers who took promotional exams for captain, lieutenant and sergeant last October.

The so-called banded scores were released last week with officers divided into groups based on the range they scored in.

Tom Nee, the president of the Boston police union, said the way the change was implemented does not ensure fairness. "It's got to be clear and free of partisan politics and nepotism," Nee said.

"Those types of safeguards have to be built into a banding process and we didn't even get to that point."

Rule change irks cops - American Police Beat Magazine


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## fra444

Today I recieved a letter from CS. I then checked their site and the new list is now active, as of today, 05/15/2009!!!

And for those of you wondering I am 9th on my job and third on my shift. Not sure why you would give a rats ass but if ya do there it is!


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