# Question and debate regarding firearms.



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

Good evening all,
My names Tony, I'm currently a recruit student officer at the part time academy in foxboro, SSPI. I have some questions and scenarios I'm looking for some input on. 

Scenario 1: your on duty, in a marked patrol vehicle driving and observe a man walking down the street openly carrying a firearm (pistol) in a holster. You stop the man and demand to see his LTC. He gives you his valid LTC A, with no restrictions. What would be the outcome of this encounter? Is this an arrest able offense, if so, by what statue? Is this a citable offense, If so, by what statue?

Scenario 2: Your dispatched to the area of (x) where a concerened party has called 911 to report a man who doesn't appear to be a police officer walking down the street with a gun. On scene, the man has a valid LTC A unrestricted which he presents to you. What is the outcome of this encounter? is this an arrest able offense, if so, by what statue? Is this a citable offense, If so, by what statue? 
Thanks for any input!


----------



## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

Why would you stop someone with a pistol in a holster?


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

I know merely carrying a pistol in a holster isn't a crime, even if its visable, provided you hold an LTC-A ALP, so technically there should be no reason to stop that person right? However, A lot of people argue that carrying a pistol in a holster openly by someone other than law enforcement causes alarm, and could draw attention from law enforcement for the purpose of public safety. People argue if you carry openly even with the validity of a proper LTC that allows you to do so, you can be arrested and charged, or found unsuitable if someone calls the police. What I'm wondering Is what would you even charge that person with if they are a valid LTC holder?


----------



## Danusmc0321 (May 21, 2012)

Are you really a recruit right now or are you trollin?

You can open carry with a class A. Easily googled. So there would be no charges if that's the entire scenario. Mass isn't a big open carry state so people aren't used to seeing it and might call on you. But what "alarms" one person won't "alarm" another. So that shouldn't matter if your doing it legally, not being a dingleberry, causing the issuing agency to keep getting calls about you doing stuff for shock value or whatever, because they could pull your license...This is something I would ask your crim law/procedure instructor, that's what they are there for.


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

Danusmc0321 said:


> Are you really a recruit right now or are you trollin?
> 
> You can open carry with a class A. Easily googled. So there would be no charges if that's the entire scenario. Mass isn't a big open carry state so people aren't used to seeing it and might call on you. But what "alarms" one person won't "alarm" another. But that shouldn't matter if your doing it legally, not being a dingleberry and causing the issuing agency to keep getting calls about you doing stuff for shock value or whatever, because they could pull your license...This is something I would ask your crim law/procedure instructor, that's what they are there for.


Not trolling I promise. Brand new recruit, only 3rd week in for the R/I foxboro academy and we had a lot of crim law so far so not much free time to discuss in depth about one topic when class is only 3 hrs long. But our crim law instructor did in fact say it was legal, and you couldn't be arrested for it, but like you said, maybe where it's not practiced, people aren't aware and think that they could be arrested under some statue. I just wanted to get more input on the topic because whenever I would inquire about this topic I would just get people's bias opinions on open carry vs conceal and never got any fact based law regarding this. Thanks for the input I appreciate it.


----------



## MiamiVice (May 2, 2002)

Not illegal, no crime, move along

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

MiamiVice said:


> Not illegal, no crime, move along
> 
> Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


This.

Someone open carrying? Big deal. Don't make contact, they aren't doing anything wrong. Someone calls because they're alarmed? Fuck them. Their feelings don't trump constitutionally guaranteed rights.

It's shit like that, that furthers the divide between the police and the citizenry.

How many criminals you know that open carry?

Exactly.


----------



## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

Mass422 said:


> Good evening all,
> My names Tony, I'm currently a recruit student officer at the part time academy in foxboro, SSPI. I have some questions and scenarios I'm looking for some input on.
> 
> Scenario 1: your on duty, in a marked patrol vehicle driving and observe a man walking down the street openly carrying a firearm (pistol) in a holster. You stop the man and demand to see his LTC. He gives you his valid LTC A, with no restrictions. What would be the outcome of this encounter? Is this an arrest able offense, if so, by what statue? Is this a citable offense, If so, by what statue?
> ...


Question 3... are any of you a di at the foxboro academy and do i have to worry that whole class will be doing push ups till they puke because i was to lazy to open my book and find the answers to my homework assignment myself?


----------



## Bloodhound (May 20, 2010)

Pvt. Cowboy said:


> This.
> 
> Someone open carrying? Big deal. Don't make contact, they aren't doing anything wrong. Someone calls because they're alarmed? Fuck them. Their feelings don't trump constitutionally guaranteed rights.


Exactly right. Case law has established that without a "plus factor", you have no reason to detain someone simply for openly carrying a firearm. Plus factor being they appear to be under 21, or may be involved in criminal conduct. However, this does not apply to shotguns and rifles fyi.


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

samadam78 said:


> Question 3... are any of you a di at the foxboro academy and do i have to worry that whole class will be doing push ups till they puke because i was to lazy to open my book and find the answers to my homework assignment myself?


No sir! Haha. This wasn't a homework assignment, just a topic that seemed by law, a clear cut answer as many of you have provided, yet I'm not sure why so many officers, and recruit officers argue the legality of it as they seem to try and pick it apart and say "well.." It seems more of a bias/ emotional thing rather than actual statue law and whether a crime was actually committed. Interesting topic that I was looking for some more input on. Thanks all for the insight.


----------



## Chitownlost (Jun 24, 2016)

$1 worth of free advise. If you have a law question, ask your law instructor. Once you graduate, consult a lawyer (preferable a prosecutor if you can) or proven print material like ledimensions.com, legal updates and review federal, state and local law. 

While everyone here has a lot of experience and knowledge, I'd hate for you to get a bit of info that might not be 100% accurate. 

Welcome to the greatest show on earth. Keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut. Be safe.


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

Chitownlost said:


> $1 worth of free advise. If you have a law question, ask your law instructor. Once you graduate, consult a lawyer (preferable a prosecutor if you can) or proven print material like ledimensions.com, legal updates and review federal, state and local law.
> 
> While everyone here has a lot of experience and knowledge, I'd hate for you to get a bit of info that might not be 100% accurate.
> 
> Welcome to the greatest show on earth. Keep your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut. Be safe.


Thank you, I appreciate your advice.


----------



## MiamiVice (May 2, 2002)

At least the kid had the balls to put his name in op.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

I was initially going to lay into this kid, but his respectful demeanor and honest line of questioning changed my mind. 

Living in NH, I'm very pro 2a. It's common to see someone else open carrying a firearm, but much more common to see something being printed. Just because it's a weapon, doesn't mean they're up to no good. No PC for a stop/contact. 

Bloodhound, thanks for the info on the rifle/shotgun. I didn't know that was viewed under a different legal light, honestly. Not like I'm gonna be walking around mass with one of my AR's any time soon, but it's good to know. 

Tony, some of your classmates are likely thinking they have a right to a stop because of emotions, as you said. Remember though, rights trump feelings everyday.


----------



## samadam78 (Nov 10, 2007)

Mass422 said:


> No sir! Haha. This wasn't a homework assignment, just a topic that seemed by law, a clear cut answer as many of you have provided, yet I'm not sure why so many officers, and recruit officers argue the legality of it as they seem to try and pick it apart and say "well.." It seems more of a bias/ emotional thing rather than actual statue law and whether a crime was actually committed. Interesting topic that I was looking for some more input on. Thanks all for the insight.


Just fucking with you and you took it well and responded respectfully good job welcome to the greatest profession in the world...best fto advice i can give you eyes open mouth shut... i think your gonna be ok


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

Pvt. Cowboy said:


> I was initially going to lay into this kid, but his respectful demeanor and honest line of questioning changed my mind.
> 
> Living in NH, I'm very pro 2a. It's common to see someone else open carrying a firearm, but much more common to see something being printed. Just because it's a weapon, doesn't mean they're up to no good. No PC for a stop/contact.
> 
> ...


Thank you for taking the time to reply and offer some insight on the topic, it was very helpful in helping me understand more clearly about the subject. I see other posts here have gone off the deep end, and I'm glad this post didn't go in that direction. 
Thank you to anyone else as well who contributed to my post, you guys stay safe out there, you guys are an inspiration and role models to the public, it's one of the main reasons that drives me to police work.


----------



## k12kop (May 24, 2005)

I'm going to put this thread on my "things I learned today" list


----------



## BxDetSgt (Jun 1, 2012)

If you have to "stretch" or overthink to make a collar you really need to think about why you are making that collar. You should never arrest because you can, arrest because it is the right thing to do and will benefit the public safety. Too many guys arrest because they can. It is the same reason a dog licks his.....


----------



## JR90 (Aug 5, 2015)

Mass422 said:


> Not trolling I promise. Brand new recruit, only 3rd week in for the R/I foxboro academy and we had a lot of crim law so far so not much free time to discuss in depth about one topic when class is only 3 hrs long. But our crim law instructor did in fact say it was legal, and you couldn't be arrested for it, but like you said, maybe where it's not practiced, people aren't aware and think that they could be arrested under some statue. I just wanted to get more input on the topic because whenever I would inquire about this topic I would just get people's bias opinions on open carry vs conceal and never got any fact based law regarding this. Thanks for the input I appreciate it.


Is good ol Sergeant Neilson teaching crim law? Lol


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

JR90 said:


> Is good ol Sergeant Neilson teaching crim law? Lol


Yep! Great guy, very knowledgeable.


----------



## JR90 (Aug 5, 2015)

Lol 


Mass422 said:


> Yep! Great guy, very knowledgeable.


Really good guy. I was in the previous class there


----------



## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

BxDetSgt said:


> If you have to "stretch" or overthink to make a collar you really need to think about why you are making that collar. You should never arrest because you can, arrest because it is the right thing to do and will benefit the public safety. Too many guys arrest because they can. It is the same reason a dog licks his.....


 That sentiment was echoed by another city cop here on masscops. 
Why jam up a law-abiding citizen because they had a momentary lapse of reason ?
Educate them on the folly of open carry in Massachusetts


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

pahapoika said:


> That sentiment was echoed by another city cop here on masscops.
> Why jam up a law-abiding citizen because they had a momentary lapse of reason ?
> Educate them on the folly of open carry in Massachusetts


I always conceal carry my MP shield. However, since our discussion about open carry, I was curious to try it. I carried openly all day today throughout my normal activities. Not one bad or awkward encounter. Most people seemed to simply dismiss the fact, or seemed not to be bothered in the least bit. I actually had one person while I was in line at dunks for my mid morning coffee say to me "I know guns are legal but don't you have to cover them up if you want to carry them in public?" Had a nice conversation about the topic that was actually a positive experience. I'm not sure if I'd open carry daily, but it sure is a lot more comfortable than my alien gear IWB holster!


----------



## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

An LTC holder was arrested not too long ago after he noticed a metal detector at the entrance to his son's graduation.
He left the line in attempt to go back to his vehicle to secure his firearm but was stopped by campus police and arrested.

Was not there nor am I privy to all the facts however i feel this is a case of yes, you can arrest somebody , but to what end ?


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

pahapoika said:


> An LTC holder was arrested not too long ago after he noticed a metal detector at the entrance to his son's graduation.
> He left the line in attempt to go back to his vehicle to secure his firearm but was stopped by campus police and arrested.
> 
> Was not there nor am I privy to all the facts however i feel this is a case of yes, you can arrest somebody , but to what end ?


But your not allowed on school property while carrying, even with an unrestricted LTC so those could have been reasonable grounds to make an arrest right?


----------



## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

Yes, but why ?


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

pahapoika said:


> Yes, but why ?


Because It's an arrest able offense to carry firearms on school property. I mean, I know I'm not a police officer yet, still in the academy, learning the mindset, but I think it all depends on the situation. There's the letter of the law, and then there is the spirit of the law, it's up to the officer to make the appropriate decision for the circumstances to use appropriate discretion and action. The LTC holder should have known schools are prohibited areas in which to carry, however, if one argued they became complacent, and made an attempt to leave the property to secure the gun off of school grounds, and the fact that he was attending his sons graduation, maybe that could be taken into consideration however, it's not required to take that into consideration, and an arrest could be made for the reason of carrying your firearm on school grounds for its simply prohibited by law.


----------



## msw (Jul 19, 2004)

Mass422 said:


> Because It's an arrest able offense to carry firearms on school property. ........... and an arrest could be made............


Grasshopper, should you make it through the Academy and become a cop, you will likely encounter lots of occasions where an arrest _could_ be made, but that does not mean it _should_ be made....... even_ if_ it is technically an arrestable offense. (Unless it is a mandatory arrest statute/situation, as some circumstances are in some jurisdictions.) Some arrests, plain and simple, are just chickenshit. In the example of the LTC holder attending his son's graduation, and leaving the venue to go secure his weapon, absent some extenuating circumstances other than what is described in the post (like he was an A/H), I can say without equivocation that that is a chickenshit arrest. Let me give you another example, culled from the thousands of arrests I had to review/approve over the course of almost 8 years as a Sergeant supervising Deputies working a busy patrol station in South Los Angeles a quarter century ago......

Had a relatively new Dep come in with an arrest one day, it was for a juvenile in possession of fixed ammunition, a misdemeanor County ordinance violation. So I says, "What you got?" And he says "juvie in possession of ammo, Sarge." So I say, "What kind"? And he says ".22 ammo." So I ask "How many rounds?" And the Dep says "one round". Which gave me a bit of a pause. Hmmmm&#8230;&#8230; "One round of /22lr ammo?", I ask. "Yup", he says. So I ask, "What gang does he belong to?" And the Deputy says, "No gang, Sarge, doesn't claim a gang, not the type, no tats, no gang colors, nothing like that." Hmmmm&#8230;.. "So why did he say he had the ammo?" And the Dep tells me, "He says he and his Dad were out in the desert over the weekend hunting rabbits, and it just probably got stuck in or accidentally left in his coat pocket." Hmmmmm&#8230;&#8230; "And do you believe this story, Deputy?" And he replied, "Well, yes, Sergeant, I do believe it." "And does he seem like a good kid, no attitude problem, not a dipshit kid?" "No Sarge, seems like a nice kid". Hmmmmm&#8230;&#8230; "So why is he here under arrest Deputy?" "Well, Sarge because it is a violation of the law." Wow. Subsequent to this little verbal exchange between us, this Deputy and I had a friendly little chat about what constitutes a proper arrest, and what does not. And I told him to get that kid out of the booking cage, drive him home and apologize to both him and his parent(s).

Now admittedly, this is an extreme example of what we are talking about here, but still, never forget that just because you _can_ arrest someone, it doesn't mean that you always _should_.


----------



## Chitownlost (Jun 24, 2016)

Unfortunately in this line of work, you will run across EVERY type of personality in existence. One of those is the type that never sees in shades of gray and can't or won't think critically.

Another I've seen a lot is the one that thinks they are hot shit because they made an arrest. 100 times more of its a gun arrest. Doesn't matter the charge, circumstances or outcome they want an arrest and have not trouble telling you about it. 

Both are dangerous.


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

msw said:


> Grasshopper, should you make it through the Academy and become a cop, you will likely encounter lots of occasions where an arrest _could_ be made, but that does not mean it _should_ be made....... even_ if_ it is technically an arrestable offense. (Unless it is a mandatory arrest statute/situation, as some circumstances are in some jurisdictions.) Some arrests, plain and simple, are just chickenshit. In the example of the LTC holder attending his son's graduation, and leaving the venue to go secure his weapon, absent some extenuating circumstances other than what is described in the post (like he was an A/H), I can say without equivocation that that is a chickenshit arrest. Let me give you another example, culled from the thousands of arrests I had to review/approve over the course of almost 8 years as a Sergeant supervising Deputies working a busy patrol station in South Los Angeles a quarter century ago......
> 
> Had a relatively new Dep come in with an arrest one day, it was for a juvenile in possession of fixed ammunition, a misdemeanor County ordinance violation. So I says, "What you got?" And he says "juvie in possession of ammo, Sarge." So I say, "What kind"? And he says ".22 ammo." So I ask "How many rounds?" And the Dep says "one round". Which gave me a bit of a pause. Hmmmm&#8230;&#8230; "One round of /22lr ammo?", I ask. "Yup", he says. So I ask, "What gang does he belong to?" And the Deputy says, "No gang, Sarge, doesn't claim a gang, not the type, no tats, no gang colors, nothing like that." Hmmmm&#8230;.. "So why did he say he had the ammo?" And the Dep tells me, "He says he and his Dad were out in the desert over the weekend hunting rabbits, and it just probably got stuck in or accidentally left in his coat pocket." Hmmmmm&#8230;&#8230; "And do you believe this story, Deputy?" And he replied, "Well, yes, Sergeant, I do believe it." "And does he seem like a good kid, no attitude problem, not a dipshit kid?" "No Sarge, seems like a nice kid". Hmmmmm&#8230;&#8230; "So why is he here under arrest Deputy?" "Well, Sarge because it is a violation of the law." Wow. Subsequent to this little verbal exchange between us, this Deputy and I had a friendly little chat about what constitutes a proper arrest, and what does not. And I told him to get that kid out of the booking cage, drive him home and apologize to both him and his parent(s).
> 
> Now admittedly, this is an extreme example of what we are talking about here, but still, never forget that just because you _can_ arrest someone, it doesn't mean that you always _should_.


First off, thanks for taking the time to write all that up and offer some great advice to a new guy going through the academy. I understand a little bit better now about the fact that even if the law may read in the way to arrest someone, it seems to me what you and other guys are saying is its important to be aware of the bigger picture, zoom out of the tunnel vision of "it says arrest, I'm arresting" and do some critical thinking upon the circumstances of a situation as a whole. I think this is great advice.


----------



## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

MSW couldn't have nailed it down any clearer. 

You're not out there to jam up good folks that made a mistake (obv situations require different analysis) you're out there to make criminals lives miserable. 

Of course there will be people that DESERVE to be locked up because they talked you in it, but you'll encounter plenty of people who simply goofed. You really wanna screw up their career, family life, by putting the screws to them? Think about that stuff. 

Look, I'm not a cop, so my opinion on this doesn't carry as much weight as the guys and gals here that do the job. But I can also tell you that the predominant amount of folks here would see that college arrest as a chicken shit grab. The guy was trying to do the right thing by heading back to his vehicle to secure his gun... how DARE he bring a means of protection into "gun free zone." 

Pffffft. Stupid.


----------



## Patr8726 (Dec 12, 2015)

Pvt. Cowboy said:


> How many criminals you know that open carry?


"SWAT paramedic" arrested on gun charge - The Denver Post



Mass422 said:


> I always conceal carry my MP shield. However, since our discussion about open carry, I was curious to try it. I carried openly all day today throughout my normal activities. Not one bad or awkward encounter. Most people seemed to simply dismiss the fact, or seemed not to be bothered in the least bit. I actually had one person while I was in line at dunks for my mid morning coffee say to me "I know guns are legal but don't you have to cover them up if you want to carry them in public?" Had a nice conversation about the topic that was actually a positive experience. I'm not sure if I'd open carry daily, but it sure is a lot more comfortable than my alien gear IWB holster!


Are you paying your own way through the R/I? I'm not sure that its the best idea to draw attention to yourself in this way while an academy student, especially if you haven't gotten hired someplace yet.


----------



## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

And just for the record I am not a police officer either.
Retired Corrections and I like to play in traffic once in awhile to augment my pension


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

Patr8726 said:


> "SWAT paramedic" arrested on gun charge - The Denver Post
> 
> Are you paying your own way through the R/I? I'm not sure that its the best idea to draw attention to yourself in this way while an academy student, especially if you haven't gotten hired someplace yet.


would of replied sooner but had CPR- First Responder today at the academy, ive had my EMT-B cert for a few years now so it was a long and boring class! Anyways, to answer your question, yes i did pay the tuition for the academy myself. There are 37 recruit officers in my class, of which 2 of them their department covered the tuition. Upon graduation of the academy, i will be working with the department that sponsored me for the academy. Do i agree it may not be a good idea to draw attention to myself while going through the academy? Yes and no, as mentioned this is covered by statutory law, or lack of there of, prohibiting carrying a firearm openly, its a License To Carry, not a License to conceal. Also Massachusetts case law (SJC- FRB vs Simkin), and also clarified on the boards here, its 100% legal for someone to do. There is no arrest able offense here, or risk to public safety for merely carrying your firearm openly secured in a holster. From what i observed through situational awareness through out the day, i may have gotten as much as a double take before the person returned to browsing through their phone. I carried openly all day without one incident. No one seemed to even care. It seemed as though i never drew any reasonable attention to myself by the means of openly carrying. Does this mean that no one would ever become alarmed? No, im sure there may be people who may become alarmed by seeing someone other than a uniformed officer carrying a firearm, However, causing alarm by carrying a firearm legally in which the license entitled the holder to do just that is not enough to deem that license holder unsuitable, or constitutes that a crime has been committed.

I do get what your saying; even if legal, why take the chance to cause alarm or attention? why put yourself in a position where you could potentially face problems? Because if the things we choose to do for whatever our personal reasons may be, are legal and allow us the freedom to do those things, but we choose not to do them because they may cause alarm or attention or offend someone? Or i wont do it because the majority doesn't? There is something wrong about that. Just my personal opinion.


----------



## felony (Oct 24, 2014)

I see a lot of revoked LTC's for "unsuitable persons", in the future, if you open carry daily and get complaints.


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

felony said:


> I see a lot of revoked LTC's for "unsuitable persons", in the future, if you open carry daily and get complaints.


But you could complain all you want, until law is passed prohibiting openly carrying, you cant revoke someones license because someone complains. Its not like only one district court ruled that, and you take a chance on another district court saying something differently, SJC ruled that. Thats like saying "here you can have this legally, but if someone complains about it or doesnt like it, ill have to take it away-even thought its not against the law- people don't like it..so."


----------



## Goose (Dec 1, 2004)

Mass422 said:


> But you could complain all you want, until law is passed prohibiting openly carrying, you cant revoke someones license because someone complains. Its not like only one district court ruled that, and you take a chance on another district court saying something differently, SJC ruled that. Thats like saying "here you can have this legally, but if someone complains about it or doesnt like it, ill have to take it away-even thought its not against the law- people don't like it..so."


Bro, most Mass Chiefs are politicians in a uniform.


----------



## msw (Jul 19, 2004)

I realize this is not specifically an Open Carry thread, but since the discussion has drifted that way, my two cents:

Similar to what I said before in an earlier post - just because something is a crime and you _can_ arrest for it, doesn't mean you _should_ arrest for it - also, just because some particular behavior _is_ legal, doesn't necessarily mean you should actually go do it. I put Open Carry in that category, unless you are out hiking, on your own property, outdoors activities in rural areas, etc. But in an urban environment, especially in a relatively anti-2A state, I don't think it is a good idea. My main reason for disliking Open Carry is that you give up the tactical advantage of concealed carry when you Open Carry. "Here's a gun on my hip, come try and snatch it!" No thanks. Yeah, I know, you (the generic "you" not any specific "you") are a Ninja Weapons Retention Expert; but even so, why give away the tactical advantage of concealed carry by Open Carrying? The other reason is that given today's political climate, especially in liberal leaning states, extensive and repeated open carry activities by segments of the gun owning population could easily lead to a sufficiently increased level of uncomfortableness by non-gun-owners, that adverse legislation banning the practice could result.

BTW, I'm a very pro-2A guy, NRA LE Firearms Instructor and Life Member for decades, etc. But for personal protection reasons, and for the potential for political fall-out from doing it, I don't like or support Open Carry in urban or suburban areas.


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

msw said:


> I realize this is not specifically an Open Carry thread, but since the discussion has drifted that way, my two cents:
> 
> Similar to what I said before in an earlier post - just because something is a crime and you _can_ arrest for it, doesn't mean you _should_ arrest for it - also, just because some particular behavior _is_ legal, doesn't necessarily mean you should actually go do it. I put Open Carry in that category, unless you are out hiking, on your own property, outdoors activities in rural areas, etc. But in an urban environment, especially in a relatively anti-2A state, I don't think it is a good idea. My main reason for disliking Open Carry is that you give up the tactical advantage of concealed carry when you Open Carry. "Here's a gun on my hip, come try and snatch it!" No thanks. Yeah, I know, you (the generic "you" not any specific "you") are a Ninja Weapons Retention Expert; but even so, why give away the tactical advantage of concealed carry by Open Carrying? The other reason is that given today's political climate, especially in liberal leaning states, extensive and repeated open carry activities by segments of the gun owning population could easily lead to a sufficiently increased level of uncomfortableness by non-gun-owners, that adverse legislation banning the practice could result.
> 
> BTW, I'm a very pro-2A guy, NRA LE Firearms Instructor and Life Member for decades, etc. But for personal protection reasons, and for the potential for political fall-out from doing it, I don't like or support Open Carry in urban or suburban areas.


I feel concealing ones weapon as a tactical advantage is an offensive strategy, not a defensive one. People who want that "element of surprise" always assume they will be a bystander and not a targeted victim, the element of surprise doesn't work when you are the one being attacked for giving the impression that you are an easy target. People have many reasons why they would prefer to carry openly vs concealed. As i mentioned, i conceal carry everyday. however being legal to open carry i wanted to give it a shot. Also, thank you for your input, not trying to argue right and wrong here at all, i respect your opinion and service you provide being a firearms instructor. Also, i wouldn't say im all for open carry either, just trying to understand, ask questions and get input on how people feel about things, how the laws work, like i mentioned im in the R/I academy, so im just trying to get a grasp on alot of different material


----------



## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

I do get what your saying; even if legal, *why* take the chance to cause alarm or attention*?* *why* put yourself in a position where you could potentially face problems*?* Because if the things we choose to do for whatever our personal reasons may be, are legal and allow us the freedom to do those things, but we choose not to do them *because they may cause alarm or attention or offend someone?* Or i wont do it because the majority doesn't? There is something wrong about that. Just my personal opinion.

As an MPTC instructor, I have to take a shot in the dark here but.........................Are you the guy in the class who always asks "what if?"


----------



## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

mpd61 said:


> I do get what your saying; even if legal, *why* take the chance to cause alarm or attention*?* *why* put yourself in a position where you could potentially face problems*?* Because if the things we choose to do for whatever our personal reasons may be, are legal and allow us the freedom to do those things, but we choose not to do them *because they may cause alarm or attention or offend someone?* Or i wont do it because the majority doesn't? There is something wrong about that. Just my personal opinion.
> 
> As an MPTC instructor, I have to take a shot in the dark here but.........................Are you the guy in the class who always asks "what if?"


Had to hit "like" because i use to be that guy


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

mpd61 said:


> I do get what your saying; even if legal, *why* take the chance to cause alarm or attention*?* *why* put yourself in a position where you could potentially face problems*?* Because if the things we choose to do for whatever our personal reasons may be, are legal and allow us the freedom to do those things, but we choose not to do them *because they may cause alarm or attention or offend someone?* Or i wont do it because the majority doesn't? There is something wrong about that. Just my personal opinion.
> 
> As an MPTC instructor, I have to take a shot in the dark here but.........................Are you the guy in the class who always asks "what if?"


Haha. For the the most part I keep to myself quietly, we do have one of those guys in the class that's just constantly raising his hand and asking what if questions. It just seemed to be a popular debate about open carry firearms because none of us were aware that it could be done legally


----------



## Patr8726 (Dec 12, 2015)

In my book, felon whacker = a bad guy open carrying. He's not the only crook who's done it before either.



Mass422 said:


> would of replied sooner but had CPR- First Responder today at the academy, ive had my EMT-B cert for a few years now so it was a long and boring class! Anyways, to answer your question, yes i did pay the tuition for the academy myself. There are 37 recruit officers in my class, of which 2 of them their department covered the tuition. Upon graduation of the academy, i will be working with the department that sponsored me for the academy. Do i agree it may not be a good idea to draw attention to myself while going through the academy? Yes and no, as mentioned this is covered by statutory law, or lack of there of, prohibiting carrying a firearm openly, its a License To Carry, not a License to conceal. Also Massachusetts case law (SJC- FRB vs Simkin), and also clarified on the boards here, its 100% legal for someone to do. There is no arrest able offense here, or risk to public safety for merely carrying your firearm openly secured in a holster. From what i observed through situational awareness through out the day, i may have gotten as much as a double take before the person returned to browsing through their phone. I carried openly all day without one incident. No one seemed to even care. It seemed as though i never drew any reasonable attention to myself by the means of openly carrying. Does this mean that no one would ever become alarmed? No, im sure there may be people who may become alarmed by seeing someone other than a uniformed officer carrying a firearm, However, causing alarm by carrying a firearm legally in which the license entitled the holder to do just that is not enough to deem that license holder unsuitable, or constitutes that a crime has been committed.
> 
> I do get what your saying; even if legal, why take the chance to cause alarm or attention? why put yourself in a position where you could potentially face problems? Because if the things we choose to do for whatever our personal reasons may be, are legal and allow us the freedom to do those things, but we choose not to do them because they may cause alarm or attention or offend someone? Or i wont do it because the majority doesn't? There is something wrong about that. Just my personal opinion.


There's plenty of things that are perfectly legal for you to do that your future LE employer(s) may decide are a deal breaker. That's especially true when you consider that most agencies in MA require you to maintain an LTC as a condition of employment. The potential career impact doesn't seem to be registering with you. Good luck.


----------



## Patr8726 (Dec 12, 2015)

Check out page 4 of this case
www.mass.gov/anf/docs/csc/decisions/discipline/reeve-daniel-091808.pdf


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

Patr8726 said:


> In my book, felon whacker = a bad guy open carrying. He's not the only crook who's done it before either.
> 
> There's plenty of things that are perfectly legal for you to do that your future LE employer(s) may decide are a deal breaker. That's especially true when you consider that most agencies in MA require you to maintain an LTC as a condition of employment. The potential career impact doesn't seem to be registering with you. Good luck.


I understand completely and that's why I won't be openly carrying and why this thread is a firearms question and debate regarding open carry of firearms. I conceal carry for many reasons which I'm sure most of us have in common. I was simply looking from a different perspective on the subject. The legality of the topic was discussed in the academy and i was simply curious. I take my future LE career very seriously and it's something I strive for. I appreciate all your comments and input! All of you have been extremely helpful in seeing this from multiple different angles.


----------



## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

My view on open carrying is this: 

Wearing a banana hammock in public is legal too, still doesn't make it a good idea. 

I don't frown upon those that do, I just feel the tactical advantage belongs to the concealed carriers. 

Back to the original point of this thread: don't bother people that are OC'ing that have done nothing wrong. There are plenty of shitbags and criminals out there to jam up as opposed to someone with a clean background. My 2 pennies worth of advice.


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

Pvt. Cowboy said:


> My view on open carrying is this:
> 
> Wearing a banana hammock in public is legal too, still doesn't make it a good idea.
> 
> ...


2 pennies worth of advice is good advice. Thanks for the input.


----------



## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

*"Wearing a banana hammock in public is legal too, still doesn't make it a good idea."*

Took my cousin from Europe to the beach one day and he comes out of the bathhouse rock'n a bright yellow Speedo !!! ￼￼￼

Thankfully that only lasted one day


----------



## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

Dicks and guns are related in social norms when speaking of exposure;
One is Open and Gross Lewdness
One is Open and Just foolish


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

woodyd said:


> Late to the party but here's a similar, parallel question to what the OP asked.
> Let's assume that a person is open carrying and no laws have been broken (properly licensed, not on school property, not threatening anyone or committing any other crime). Could the issuing Police Chief suspend the LTC for suitability? MA law makes LTCs may issue not shall issue, and allows the Chief to determine if an applicant is suitable. Could a Chief de facto outlaw open carry in his/her town by suspending the LTCs of persons who open carry?


You bring up some good points here. The only thing that I find confusing and partially why i created this thread is this; example: An otherwise law abiding citizen is openly carrying. Technically, if no laws are broken, the police wouldn't even be making contact with this person. The only reason I could think of (assuming the person is simply going about their day as normal, no criminal activity) where the police would stop and demand to see that person's LTC is if someone calls because there alarmed. Police show up and demand to see that persons LTC becuase someone called the police for "a man walking around with a gun." Valid LTC, no laws are broken, the officers write a report and send the man on his way. Word and or report gets to Chief of police. Massachusetts being a 'may issue' state, the Chief of police writes a letter the the FRB to revoke that person's license for finding that person no longer suitable. That part that I'm confused about is there is case law from the SJC that states causing alarm to others by legally carrying a firearm is meritless and will not make someone unsuitable for an LTC nor can it be used as a reason for revocation. The SJC over rules the Chiefs decision to revoke the license and the license will be reinstated. So even though MA is a may issue state, if carrying whether openly or concealed, lawfully as the license allows, that person can't be deemed unsuitable, or have their LTC yanked. Right?


----------



## CrackPot (Sep 26, 2011)

There is a subtle point in here. He cannot carry or even have direct possession of his firearm on school property. He IS allowed to have it secured and stored in his car on school property. That is the letter of the law and I can quote it if needed.

Now unfortunately there are multiple instances of individuals getting arrested for guns stored in cars on school property. Most get dismissed but some have been convicted and held up on appeal. The law is very clear but judges have applied the "but it's guns" doctrine in contradiction to the law.

MA gun laws are highly convoluted.

You see a pickup truck with a gun rack driving down the road. It contains one long gun. Is it legal?

Looking closer it is an unloaded pump shotgun. Legal?

If it had a trigger lock does that change the answer?

The answers are yes, yes, and no. Low capacity long guns do not have to be secured when transported, just unloaded. Transport law is different than storage. Also trigger locks have no basis for transport only storage. If the gun was high capacity then it would need to be secured but adding a trigger lock does nothing during transport.

Best of luck



Mass422 said:


> Because It's an arrest able offense to carry firearms on school property. I mean, I know I'm not a police officer yet, still in the academy, learning the mindset, but I think it all depends on the situation. There's the letter of the law, and then there is the spirit of the law, it's up to the officer to make the appropriate decision for the circumstances to use appropriate discretion and action. The LTC holder should have known schools are prohibited areas in which to carry, however, if one argued they became complacent, and made an attempt to leave the property to secure the gun off of school grounds, and the fact that he was attending his sons graduation, maybe that could be taken into consideration however, it's not required to take that into consideration, and an arrest could be made for the reason of carrying your firearm on school grounds for its simply prohibited by law.


----------



## Mass422 (Mar 7, 2016)

Just as an update guys. I was also made aware through tonight's crim law class that although the SJC ruled that causing alarm to others by legally carrying a firearm is meritless and you can not be found unsuitable and have your LTC revoked, there is nothing in place stopping the Chief from applying a "no open carry" restriction to someone's LTC if the Chief wanted to do that.


----------



## visible25 (Feb 7, 2012)

Wow this thread has been a wealth of knowledge!! Book marked for future reference


----------



## BxDetSgt (Jun 1, 2012)

mpd61 said:


> Dicks and guns are related in social norms when speaking of exposure;
> One is Open and Gross Lewdness
> One is Open and Just foolish


Is carrying a Glock count for number 1?


----------



## BxDetSgt (Jun 1, 2012)

Future Chief in the making. Keep over thinking son, things will soon make sense. PS If you don't at least check the LTC of the guy open carrying you are a fool.


----------



## MiamiVice (May 2, 2002)

This thread gives me a headache

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G930A using Tapatalk


----------



## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

Since this has been asked and answered... and we really don't want to muddy the waters any further... 

Cowboy hath commenced lockage.


----------

