# Chicopee could withdraw police and fire departments from state Civil Service system



## LGriffin

Last week's retirement of the police chief could spark an effort to remove the police and fire departments from the state's Civil Service system.

"Change is always difficult but we have to understand when something has outlived its usefulness. We need to move forward," Mayor Michael D. Bissonnette said. "It duplicates a lot of protections that exist and adds one more bureaucratic layer."

The system, created originally to help protect municipal employees before the days of labor unions, oversees hiring and discipline mostly in police and fire departments.

When there is a vacancy in a department, Civil Service holds an exam and, using a formula, community leaders then select candidates from the top scorers. Special provisions move people, mainly military veterans, to the top of the list despite the scores.

It is partly frustration with the cumbersome hiring process that is sparking the consideration. Bissonnette said he has asked for a police chief's test to be held but the next one is not scheduled until the spring.

The process is also limiting since test scores are not the only indicator of a candidate's ability to be a good patrolman or firefighter, he said.

Removal of Civil Service would need legislative approval.

"The City Council would have to approve it and the Legislature would have to approve it. I will submit it to the City Council and it will be up to them," Bissonnette said.

City Councilor Robert J. Zygarowski, a retired police officer who served as a past president of the patrolmen's union, said he wants to hear both sides of the proposal.

"I would like to keep an open mind," he said. "It has some good values and I have some concerns about losing the protections."

John Shea, current president of the Chicopee patrolmen's union, declined comment saying the union has yet to talk to its lawyers.

A number of police departments, including those in Springfield and Holyoke, have removed the police commissioner or chief's position from Civil Service and many small towns never used the system.

Northampton is one of the rare police departments that has withdrawn from using the Civil Service system entirely. The process, which took two years, was finalized in 2005.

Police Chief Russell Sienkiewicz said there has been some recent interest from department officials who want to withdraw from Civil Service. Recently he has received calls from departments in Palmer, Greenfield and several in eastern Massachusetts.

He started the effort after getting frustrated with the hiring system. Sienkiewicz said he had to reject too many qualified candidates.

"It was a crazy way to hire," he said. "The exam became rote learning, and it cut down a pool of candidates, some of who were already trained and working for a non-civil service department."

Now Northampton hires a professional testing agency that gives an entry exam, which includes a writing component, and a mini-assessment center. Candidates are interviewed and their education and job experience are considered, Sienkiewicz said.

The change allows the department to hire non-residents, which gives them a larger pool of candidates. In the past he was able to hire a Washington state trooper who wanted to move to Massachusetts, as well as police officers from small towns.

The downside is there is a bigger turnover of officers since some will leave if there is an opening in a department in their hometown, he said...
http://www.masslive.com/news/index....nsidering_withdrawl.html#incart_river_default


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## lofu

It should be telling that this move always comes from the city or town's side and not the guys/gals at the PD saying "You know what would be a great idea? Leaving Civil Service."


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## Joel98

good for Chicopee


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## niteowl1970

Joel98 said:


> good for Chicopee


Is it ?


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## OfficerObie59

I thought cities didn't have the ability to remove their PD's and FD's from CS.


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## OfficerObie59

lofu said:


> It should be telling that this move always comes from the city or town's side and not the guys/gals at the PD saying "You know what would be a great idea? Leaving Civil Service."


Add the fact that those already on the PD keep their CS status post-removal.


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## Guest

Joel98 said:


> good for Chicopee


Study harder next time.


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## Guest

OfficerObie59 said:


> I thought cities didn't have the ability to remove their PD's and FD's from CS.


Home rule petition.


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## Joel98

Delta784 said:


> Study harder next time.


I already have a job, I just think Civil Service is an antiquated system, and there needs to be something better....why doesn't MA go to the way almost every other state in the country is, and leave the hiring up to the individual department?


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## HistoryHound

Joel98 said:


> I already have a job, I just think Civil Service is an antiquated system, and there needs to be something better....why doesn't MA go to the way almost every other state in the country is, and leave the hiring up to the individual department?


Seriously? I'm not even a cop and I can tell you why that's a bad idea. Can you say nepotism and favoritism?


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## Joel98

I'm being completely serious, just about every other state in the country (excluding MA and NY) leave it up to the individual departments to hire, each department offers its written test, or you submit a resume and interview, and this process works just fine....New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, just to name a few in New England...getting out of New England, you have California, Florida, Arizona, etc...I could go on and on...In CA the LAPD offers its written test every month, you just walk in and take it, and you don't need to wait every two years to take a civil service test.

This is the reason why cities and towns across MA are becoming frustrated, they have openings but cannot fill them due to Civil Service...Chicopee and Worcester...and you have plenty of towns that opted out, such as Amherst and Northampton.

Is there favoritism and nepotism? Sure, that exists everywhere, its just a fact of life and is something you will never get away from, Civil Service or not.


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## HistoryHound

Joel98 said:


> I'm being completely serious, just about every other state in the country (excluding MA and NY) leave it up to the individual departments to hire, each department offers its written test, or you submit a resume and interview, and this process works just fine....New Hampshire, Maine, Vermont, just to name a few in New England...getting out of New England, you have California, Florida, Arizona, etc...I could go on and on...In CA the LAPD offers its written test every month, you just walk in and take it, and you don't need to wait every two years to take a civil service test.
> 
> This is the reason why cities and towns across MA are becoming frustrated, they have openings but cannot fill them due to Civil Service...Chicopee and Worcester...and you have plenty of towns that opted out, such as Amherst and Northampton.
> 
> Is there favoritism and nepotism? Sure, that exists everywhere, its just a fact of life and is something you will never get away from, Civil Service or not.


I don't doubt that they do it differently in other places. You seem to forget that those in power in this state bring nepotism and favoritism to a whole new level. If it were an Olympic event, the politically connected in this state would take the Gold with ease. Look, I really don't know who you are. All I can say is if you're using places like Amherst as exemplars to support your opinion, we're probably not going to get along.


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## cc3915

HistoryHound said:


> All I can say is if you're using places like Amherst as exemplars to support your opinion, we're probably not going to get along.


Hahahaha! That's good right there.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Joel98

HistoryHound said:


> All I can say is if you're using places like Amherst as exemplars to support your opinion, we're probably not going to get along.


Well that's your prerogative, I'm just pointing out the fact that Amherst is a large town that opted out of CS.


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## niteowl1970

The grass isn't always greener on the other side of the fence.


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## Pvt. Cowboy

Delta784 said:


> Study harder next time.


HA! I wish it was that easy...


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## Deuce

Joel98 said:


> This is the reason why cities and towns across MA are becoming frustrated, they have openings but cannot fill them due to Civil Service... Worcester....


Civil Service is not the reason why we can't fill our numerous openings. In fact, after the CS exam, there are hundreds in line to fill them. The problem for us is an employing entity that claims they're broke.. Yet spends millions on skating rinks that never appear or pools that the savages just destroy anyway.. Your boat in this argument is sinking...


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## Joel98

Deuce said:


> Civil Service is not the reason why we can't fill our numerous openings. In fact, after the CS exam, there are hundreds in line to fill them. The problem for us is an employing entity that claims they're broke.. Yet spends millions on skating rinks that never appear or pools that the savages just destroy anyway.. Your boat in this argument is sinking...


My argument is that, under Civil Service, departments have to wait two years for more applicants to come along so they can fill their vacancies.....this is what the article is saying...I'm not knocking anyone's job or department...go talk to the Worcester or Chicopee Chief's, this is why they are frustrated.


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## Pvt. Cowboy

Joel98 said:


> My argument is that, under Civil Service, departments have to wait two years for more applicants to come along so they can fill their vacancies.....this is what the article is saying...I'm not knocking anyone's job or department...*go talk to the Worcester* or Chicopee *Chief*'s, this is why they are frustrated.


Why? So I can bitch about my restricted LTC? Not like people get shot around here or anything...


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## fra444

Joel...... Ask an administrator who's hands have been tied and have been restricted from screwing guys they DON'T LIKE?!?! Ask an administrator who got their position THROUGH CS?!?! Yup... I'll get right on that!

CS has saved employed Officers asses more times then not and it may not be perfect but it's the best we have. No one has to wait 2 years for a list as long as there are interested applicants for that particular shithole. As for other states look at how many guys in other states bounce from job to job...... No thanks, I prefer some security for my family.


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## Guest

Joel98 said:


> I already have a job, I just think Civil Service is an antiquated system, and there needs to be something better....why doesn't MA go to the way almost every other state in the country is, and leave the hiring up to the individual department?


Because even with CS, there is nepotism in hiring.....it would be off the charts without CS.


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## lofu

I don't understand the having to wait 2 years comment. The only time that would happen is while waiting for a politically connected person to get to the right spot on the list. Otherwise the list is good between tests and if they want to hire they just send out cards.


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## NorthshoreWannabe

Joel98 said:


> This is the reason why cities and towns across MA are becoming frustrated, they have openings but cannot fill them due to Civil Service...Chicopee and Worcester...and you have plenty of towns that opted out, such as Amherst and Northampton.
> 
> Well, with the new MACS system or updated SOARIS, your argument become irrelevant. They are removing the whole portion of picking 3 towns completely (4 if you pick MBTA). You will now have the one town with residency and then you will with everyone else where if a town exhausts its entire list completely, they pull from the rest of the state. This is what I understand of the new system. So I doubt they are going to run out of applicants when each town is gaining 10,000+ potential candidates.


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## Deuce

Joel98 said:


> go talk to the Worcester Chief, this is why they are frustrated.


In the last 10 years he's been my chief, I can count the number of times I've been graced by his highness' presence, on one hand.. But sure, if I can manage to get by his knights and guard dogs, I'll ask him if it's really civil service causing our shortage issue. Wait, no, we don't have an issue because whenever we bring up our manning shortage, his majesty just erases our minimum manning needs on the books and writes in what the city manager wants...


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## OfficerObie59

Joel98 said:


> Well that's your prerogative, I'm just pointing out the fact that Amherst is a large town that opted out of CS.


When you get on in your non-civil service PD, just hope the Board of Selectman chair likes the police department.

Because if he doesn't, during a selectman's meeting he might just back up unsubstatiated allegations of racist comments you were supposed to have made during a traffic stop. And when you find out the selectman has an old legacy warrant yo have to lock him up for, don't be surprised when a friend of his who owns a local newspaper used to spew hatred of you and the rest of the PD.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about, perhaps you reserve your judgement until you live and learn a little. The fact of the matter is very few MA PD's are having trouble hiring, particulalrly in this job market. And that being the way it is, you'd need connections to ever beat the line in the door.. .kinda like it is now in non-CS municipalities.

Furthermore, guys like you only ever seem concerned with CS on the hiring end. What's your feeling about CS once the officer is hired?


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## Guest

OfficerObie59 said:


> Furthermore, guys like you only ever seem concerned with CS on the hiring end. What's your feeling about CS once the officer is hired?


We have the option under our contract to take discipline/terminations to either CS or an arbitrator. CS is currently very pro-management, and has been for several years, so when I was union president, we took 2 termination cases to an arbitrator (different arbitrators) and won both of them. The supervisor's union took their one termination case to CS and lost.

As it stands now, I'd prefer an arbitrator to CS, but I always want the CS option there, as things go in cycles, so we may soon go back to the days of "it takes an act of Congress for a CS police officer to stay fired".

If anyone can get the arbitrator clause in their contract, do it. While it's not binding, judges almost never reverse an arbitrator's ruling, since they realize the value of arbitration in keeping cases out of the court room.


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## OfficerObie59

Delta784 said:


> We have the option under our contract to take discipline/terminations to either CS or an arbitrator. CS is currently very pro-management, and has been for several years, so when I was union president, we took 2 termination cases to an arbitrator (different arbitrators) and won both of them. The supervisor's union took their one termination case to CS and lost.
> 
> As it stands now, I'd prefer an arbitrator to CS, but I always want the CS option there, as things go in cycles, so we may soon go back to the days of "it takes an act of Congress for a CS police officer to stay fired".
> 
> If anyone can get the arbitrator clause in their contract, do it. While it's not binding, judges almost never reverse an arbitrator's ruling, since they realize the value of arbitration in keeping cases out of the court room.


I was actually hoping no one would answer me. I was willing to bet he had no clue civil service has any role after hiring officers.


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## NorthshoreWannabe

The role is plays before hiring is great for people on the outside. I could be wrong (I tried to find the article either here or through Google and couldn't) but I believe that Tewksbury bypassed a few veterans a few years ago. They hired their old Chief's son and a nephew or someone of somebody on the Board of Education and Civil Service went back and forced them to hire the bypassed Veterans.

Also, as I mentioned in my previous post, the new MACS system pools every candidate in the state together for each town that needs more than just their own residents. 

Do non-CS department unions protect against when someone is promoted over a better candidate or someone that scored higher because they are friends with the Board or Chief? (Not making a statement because I don't know either way, just asking a question.)


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## OfficerObie59

NorthshoreWannabe said:


> Do non-CS department unions protect against when someone is promoted over a better candidate or someone that scored higher because they are friends with the Board or Chief? (Not making a statement because I don't know either way, just asking a question.)


Sems to me that would be largely dependent on whether the candidate's old position and promotable position are the same bargaining unit. I can't imagine a union would fight for someone to leave the union.


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## Macop

HistoryHound said:


> Seriously? I'm not even a cop and I can tell you why that's a bad idea. Can you say nepotism and favoritism?


Ya, cause nepotism and favortism doesnt ever happen now. Its alive and well in CS departments. But no system is perfect. Yes CS is flawed. It could be revamped, my experience with the lateral process was abosultely disgustuing. I wanted to go to Boston and just yell at the morons working there. It took way too long and both depts were on board with the transfer. CS kept playing games and coming with reasons why it couldnt go through. Obviously the B.S will always be there as we all know nothing is perfect. But the way they do things, I think we can all agree is enough to drive a person mad.


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## HistoryHound

Macop said:


> Ya, cause nepotism and favortism doesnt ever happen now. Its alive and well in CS departments.


Never said it doesn't happen, but I've paid attention long enough to understand how things work. If you've got chiefs and politicians trying to play games like, oh let's say, passing over vets and going down the list until they get to Joe Blow's nephew knowing that they'll have a fight with CS for doing it; then, it's going to be that much worse for the average, unconnected person when you take CS out of the equation.

Note: I'm not trying to say that everyone on a non-CS department doesn't deserve to be there or that everyone on a CS department deserves to be there. Just saying IMO an imperfect system is better than no system.


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## j809

You guys kill me with the nepotism argument. I work for a noncs town and everyone around is Also noncs and I can tell you I have been here 10 years and have not seen any of the pds including mine hire relatives friends etc. they do hire people that are trained have degrees and experience.


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## csauce777

Ok to play devils advocate here: Are all of the Civil Service fans here saying that Massachusetts, for the only time in history, does something better in its hiring of police officers compared to every other state in the country?

Trust me, I get the argument about CS protections for officers, and nepotism, favoritism, etc. But if those factors were lessened like apparently everywhere else, would you still support the way civil service conducts hiring?


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## j809

The nepotism argument is so 70s. New ethic laws reforms and professionalism of the job has transformed it alot that these are no longer issues. Civil service only guarantees vets jobs. The protections once enjoyed are gone, I believe there are two people at CS for hearings and the decisions for years have been pro management. Even if cs says to reinstate someone they can appeal to superior court so there is no guarantee. Interestingly , can a CS officer appeal a written warning to CS? Not a suspension but a warning? Can they go to An arbitrator On a warning? Noncs you can do that and also there are just cause protections and all noncs are unionized with same union protecting CS PDs.


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## NorthshoreWannabe

Again, I am only on the outside looking in at this time but nobody can say that the nepotism argument is so 70's. Here is someone that was bypassed and this was only about 2 years ago. If there is someone who is related to good friends of the chief/board of selectmen and it comes down to 2 very strong candidates for 1 position, you can honestly say you don't think there would be advantage over the relative of the connected person?

http://policelegal.com/2010/09/20/t...-stay-against-civil-service-commission-order/

From what I have read and I could be completely wrong, when you take a test for a non-CS town, you don't find out if you were bypassed or not chosen for someone who was connected. You don't find out any information at all because I don't believe any of the test scores or information is public knowledge? (Not sure either way but I'm sure someone here could correct me)


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## j809

If they don't want you it doesn't matter anyways. Even if you're civil service the strongest thing the commission can do is place you number one on the list. However when the list expires its worthless. After a new test you start over again so doesn't really matter. Now you say that they picked somebody less qualified than you. 
Tpd had lots of issues with last chief and that is civil circus


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## Guest

j809 said:


> The nepotism argument is so 70s. New ethic laws reforms and professionalism of the job has transformed it alot that these are no longer issues. Civil service only guarantees vets jobs. The protections once enjoyed are gone, I believe there are two people at CS for hearings and the decisions for years have been pro management. Even if cs says to reinstate someone they can appeal to superior court so there is no guarantee. Interestingly , can a CS officer appeal a written warning to CS? Not a suspension but a warning? Can they go to An arbitrator On a warning? Noncs you can do that and also there are just cause protections and all noncs are unionized with same union protecting CS PDs.


Nepotism is NOT so 70's, and I'm a poster child for the CS system.

Back in 1990, I scored a 99% on the CS exam, I got veteran's preference during the Gulf War, I already had the full-time MCJTC academy, and I was employed as a permanent full-time police officer with the Boston Housing Authority. The only people higher on the Quincy list were a survivor who didn't sign the list, and a veteran with a 100%, so I ended up #2 on the list.

The political machine needed to get to a non-veteran who was beyond politically connected that was just out of reach of the hiring numbers, so the machine ran their finger down the list, found someone with absolutely no political connections (me), and I suddenly developed high blood pressure, which I never had before, and haven't had since, and I was bypassed (the city's physician is now in prison for raping some patients, BTW).

With a non-CS department, that would have been the end of it. I appealed to CS, and got a hearing date. I was examined by a hypertension specialist who teaches at Harvard Medical School, wore a 24-hour blood pressure monitor that showed I didn't have hypertension, and represented myself at the CS hearing. It was a unanimous 9-0 decision in my favor, and I was appointed 10 months after I was initially bypassed.

So, don't you dare say that nepotism is "so 70's" and that CS has no use these days, because I'm living proof that CS works, in spite of its warts.


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## Macop

Bottom line, having worked full time in both NON CS and CS Police Departments I think we all have made good points and were all right to a degree. Man this discussion would be fun over a few dozen beers and a pool table!


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## SgtAndySipowicz

There are valid arguments for both sides of this. I have worked for a non-CS agency out of state and a CS agency here in MA. The non-CS agency actually had an anti-nepotism policy in place. The Chief didn't answer to the Mayor, but rather a board of Police Commissioners (appointed by Governor). The Mayor had little, if any, input on how things were run (unlike where I am now where the Mayor is very powerful. Lateral transfers who are connected get jobs etc, bypassing the test). There was little, if any, politics there (getting hired). The agency expected you to be VERY proactive. The most proactive Officers would later be offered detective positions etc. Those who excelled as Officers and then det's etc would then be promoted to Sgt, usually after about 10 years on (very seasoned, cross trained in various bureaus). They cared first and foremost about performance (and yes numbers; cites, arrests etc). They put little importance on what degree you held (In fact the Chief when I left only had an Associates). That Chief, according to many there, was one of the best det's the dept ever had, a great "street Cop" in his day. He was respected by the patrolmen (he never forgot where he came from & would do ride alongs on last halfs, yes last halfs). More were "written up" at that job, for sure (than where I am now in MA). But if you sat back and looked who was being written up, it was the folks who fucked up a lot/were lazy/fucked up crime scenes etc etc.

In MA EVERYTHING is political. I clearly see why many so strongly believe in CS. The longer you have on the more job security/better shift picks etc. Although I will say that I had a somewhat heated debate with another officer recently as to why I scratched my head sometimes, when certain people, somewhat lazy, bid (we have 1 year bids) on busy cars (areas where guys that want to be proactive can hit the jackpot/94C busts, guns etc). The other Officer said performace is "subjective". He strongly believes in seniority determining shift picks etc. He just didn't think performance was that important in determining who is assigned where. I just think performance can be measured, I would hope that our supervisors have enough matter in their brain to see who performs well versus who doesn't (maybe that's a stretch?). What's wrong with having the best get the best assignments? Does every officer perform equally well? Ahhh no, and we all know it.....

CS does have it's advantages though. It is nice knowing that once you get out of the bottom of the barrel there is zero chance of being laid off etc. It is pretty hard to get yourself fired (in MA), and if you are fired you'll probably get your job back. I guess anyone of us could be jammed up for a variety of reasons. So again, the job security is nice. There are pro's and con's to the MA CS system as well as the way the rest of the country does things. I've worked under both systems.........


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## Macop

I dont see why the longer you have on the job means job security, once your off probation your off. But the rest id agree with.


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## Bloodhound

j809 said:


> The nepotism argument is so 70s. New ethic laws reforms and professionalism of the job has transformed it alot that these are no longer issues.


Great. Now I have to clean my large iced regular off the screen. I wish you knew how it is where I work (which IS CS). Without CS, we'd be totally screwed instead of just partially.


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## HistoryHound

SgtAndySipowicz said:


> The other Officer said performace is "subjective".


How does someone even seriously make that argument? Granted police officer performance is more complicated to determine than the performance of sales people, account reps, etc., but it can still be objectively determined. Maybe determining what weight different things carry is subjective, but overall performance (# of cites, # of arrests, quality of reports, etc.) is not. You all know who on your departments performs and who doesn't.



Macop said:


> I dont see why the longer you have on the job means job security, once your off probation your off. But the rest id agree with.


Probably because lay offs are based on seniority. I know people who were told they were likely going to be laid off before they even got sworn in. It didn't happen, but for the next few years (until they put on more people) every time the city threatened layoffs they knew if it happened they would be the ones cut. My idiot neighbor got laid off from the fire department after something like 4 or 5 years because of seniority. Honestly if the city did layoffs again, I'd say lay him off because he's lazy and even more useless than tits on a bull, but he's got enough guys/gals under him now that he's not going anywhere.


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## Macop

True, true


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