# CWOF as a Juvenile



## Guest (Nov 4, 2009)

So looking through I realize that you guys get these threads all the time and are probably sick of answering these questions so I do appreciate anybody who takes the time to answer this. With that being said here is my question...

When I was 15 (I am now 21) a couple friends and I decided it would be a good idea to go out and do stupid stupid thing. Basically we broke some windows and very stupid things like that. Now I realize that this is extremely stupid of me but I obviously wasn't smart enough to think of the consequences at the time... So in the end I ended up with 4 CWOFs of Malicious destruction of property... So Ive been trying to find out if its possible that I will ever be able to have a career in Law Enforcement? Would those CWOFs stop me from getting an FID which would obviously be a huge part of working in L.E. 

Sorry this is lengthy but I wanted it to makes sense and have some background. Again thank you to anyone who takes the time to answer I do appreciate it.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Matt said:


> So looking through I realize that you guys get these threads all the time and are probably sick of answering these questions so I do appreciate anybody who takes the time to answer this. With that being said here is my question...
> 
> When I was 15 (I am now 21) a couple friends and I decided it would be a good idea to go out and do stupid stupid thing. Basically we broke some windows and very stupid things like that. Now I realize that this is extremely stupid of me but I obviously wasn't smart enough to think of the consequences at the time... So in the end I ended up with 4 CWOFs of Malicious destruction of property... So Ive been trying to find out if its possible that I will ever be able to have a career in Law Enforcement? Would those CWOFs stop me from getting an FID which would obviously be a huge part of working in L.E.
> 
> Sorry this is lengthy but I wanted it to makes sense and have some background. Again thank you to anyone who takes the time to answer I do appreciate it.


 It all depends on what the result of the CWOF's were (ie, were they eventually dismissed?) and what the specific charge was (misdemeanor -$250, or the felony +$250, or a felony Defacing Real or Personal/126A charge).

Anything felonious is most likely an automatic no to both your FID/LTC and law enforcement aspirations.


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

Thanks for taking the time to answer.... I know that they were 250+ so I guess that qualifies as a felony...I wasn't sure if they did. To be honest I don't know if they were to be dismissed. What I remember is that I had to pay and was then told that on my 18th birthday it would be closed as long as I got in no trouble before then. I know that some jobs I have had were able to gain access to the records even though I thought juvenile records were sealed. 
So since it was in excess of 250 that pretty much makes me a no go?
Again thanks for taking the time to help.


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## 9319 (Jul 28, 2008)




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## jedediah1 (Jun 18, 2009)

don't bring any tatoo's though...



i have a few questions for you matt, 

when you were going to break the windows, did you get that feeling in your stomach that it was wrong to do?

was that the first illegal thing you did?

would you have done more if you hadn't been caught?

have you ever seen a grown man naked? (you all know the movie)

did you do more after but not get caught?

what makes you want to be a cop now?

how would you, as an officer, have treated yourself as the offender?



you can always be a fireman you know


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## niteowl1970 (Jul 7, 2009)

jedediah1 said:


> don't bring any tatoo's though...
> 
> i have a few questions for you matt,
> 
> ...


C'mon.. Give the kid a break. When I was 15 I thought the democrats were for the working man.


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## 7costanza (Aug 29, 2006)

> When I was 15 I thought the democrats were for the working man.


Thats a felony.


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## BOSCO5O (May 4, 2004)

For what it is worth, we probably all did stuff we should not have when we were a kid and if given a chance would not do it again (I know I did). Matt's posts were respectful and a lot less ignorant/entitled than some of the stuff I have been asked on recruiting details...Just my 2 cents


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

Good luck Matt, I'm ashamed to say been there done that too. Looking back at 28, its amazing the repercussions one stupid night as a teen can have. Focus on putting that far behind you, and work to establish a hard working, law abiding future!


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

Im definitely not trying to restrict myself. I would be willing to move to an area where its not as competitive as mass. I wouldn't bother trying to lie about it because I know they'll find it and that's not what I am about. I know I have made a mistake and I have owned up to and it and have gone out of my way to repay my debts with more than just the money I had to pay back. But my main thing was even if I was able to move somewhere else and get hired. Would I be able to get a FID/LTC seeing as that since it was over $250 they look at it as a felony and would that be disqualifying regardless if it was as a juvenile?


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## Rock (Mar 20, 2005)

You guys remember that kid a few years ago was trying to get on in Boston. I think he had a negligent homicide on his record as a juvenile. Got some press. I can't remember the details.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Rock said:


> You guys remember that kid a few years ago was trying to get on in Boston. I think he had a negligent homicide on his record as a juvenile. Got some press. I can't remember the details.


Even that would depend, particularly if it involved a car--if he wasn't shittoed, it's still a misdemeanor.


matt said:


> Im definitely not trying to restrict myself. I would be willing to move to an area where its not as competitive as mass. I wouldn't bother trying to lie about it because I know they'll find it and that's not what I am about. I know I have made a mistake and I have owned up to and it and have gone out of my way to repay my debts with more than just the money I had to pay back. But my main thing was even if I was able to move somewhere else and get hired. Would I be able to get a FID/LTC seeing as that since it was over $250 they look at it as a felony and would that be disqualifying regardless if it was as a juvenile?


This will come down to whether your mal damage charges count as _convictions_, and usually CWOFs that are still pending do. However, if yours have since been dismissed, I should think you'd be okay, but that's not up to me. Even then, a chief still has a lot of leeway to bypass you for such a record even if it's not a per se bar to employment or a LTC.

Matt, read up:

Gun Permit


> M.G.L - Chapter 140, Section 131
> 
> ....(d) Any person residing or having a place of business within the jurisdiction of the licensing authority or any law enforcement officer employed by the licensing authority or any person residing in an area of exclusive federal jurisdiction located within a city or town may submit to such licensing authority or the colonel of state police, an application for a Class A or Class B license to carry firearms, or renewal of the same, which such licensing authority or said colonel may issue if it appears that the applicant is a suitable person to be issued such license, and that the applicant has good reason to fear injury to his person or property, or for any other reason, including the carrying of firearms for use in sport or target practice only, subject to such restrictions expressed or authorized under this section, unless the applicant:
> 
> (i) has, in any state or federal jurisdiction, been convicted or adjudicated a youthful offender or delinquent child for the commission of (a) a felony; (b) a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for more than two years; (c) a violent crime as defined in section 121; (d) a violation of any law regulating the use, possession, ownership, transfer, purchase, sale, lease, rental, receipt or transportation of weapons or ammunition for which a term of imprisonment may be imposed; or (e) a violation of any law regulating the use, possession or sale of controlled substances as defined in section 1 of chapter 94C...


Being a cop: 


> M.G.L. - Chapter 41, Section 96a
> 
> Section 96A. No person who has been convicted of any felony shall be appointed as a police officer of a city, town or district.


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## 11-BRAVO (Jun 28, 2009)

Matt, you should be fine as long as you take active measures to make yourself an attractive candidate. Have good credit, do volunteer work, *JOIN THE MILITARY* Get a degree, and for god's sake, stay out of trouble. I know guys that have worse than that on their records and made it in. Good luck!


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

matt said:


> Im definitely not trying to restrict myself. I would be willing to move to an area where its not as competitive as mass. I wouldn't bother trying to lie about it because I know they'll find it and that's not what I am about. I know I have made a mistake and I have owned up to and it and have gone out of my way to repay my debts with more than just the money I had to pay back. But my main thing was even if I was able to move somewhere else and get hired. Would I be able to get a FID/LTC seeing as that since it was over $250 they look at it as a felony and would that be disqualifying regardless if it was as a juvenile?


Since you choose to come on an open police forum, *LOOKING FOR ADVICE*, then be man enough to tell us *EXACTLY WHAT YOU DID*.



Matt said:


> S
> 
> When I was 15 (I am now 21) a couple friends and I decided it would be a good idea to go out and do stupid stupid thing. Basically we broke some windows *and *very stupid things like that.


So you broke some windows *and* very stupid things like that. What is the *and*?


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

94c sorry I phrased it poorly it really was just breaking windows... We broke a couple windows on an abandon building (1 charge lumped together to equal over 250) and then broke the windows on 3 cars. So it was 4 charges of willful malicious destruction of property. All 4 were CWOF and closed when I turned 18 as part of the plea agreement, so that was the full extent. Sorry for my misleading words. As you said I came to an open forum so I have nothing to hide...simply trying to get advice of those who know more than I do. 

OfficerObie59 in regards to what you posted I have read those before, and that is really where my confusion came in. Are CWOF considered a felony conviction since legally they are not a conviction but I know government tends to look at CWOF differently then most others ? 

Again thank you to all that have taken the time to respond to my questions.


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## 11-BRAVO (Jun 28, 2009)

CWOF is not a conviction, but when you agree to accept a CWOF you are admitting that the commonwealth has sufficient evidence to convict you if it went to trial. Yes, most local police agencies consider it a guilty finding even though you never went to trial.

Again, join the military and put a couple more years between you and the offense and I think you will have a shot once you get the Veteran status golden ticket.


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## Rock (Mar 20, 2005)

A *C*ontinued *W*ith*O*ut a *F*inding is exactly that. There is no disposition of guilt or innocence. But just like 11-Bravo said, you are admitting to sufficient facts. You need to realize if it's you and another candidate and his/her record is clean guess who wins? Keep your nose clean from here, take the tests and roll the dice....just like the THOUSANDS of other hopefuls in this state.


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

So more or less I feel like the question about becoming an officer has been answered... So my question that Im still unsure about... Straight yes or no would I be still be eligible with the CWOF to get and FID/LTC?

You guys have been really helpful and its much appreciated.


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

matt said:


> So more or less I feel like the question about becoming an officer has been answered... So my question that Im still unsure about... _*Straight yes or no would I be still be eligible with the CWOF to get and FID/LTC?*_
> 
> You guys have been really helpful and its much appreciated.


I will say NO. But who the hell knows what the Chief of Police in the town you live in will say. Here is my question, Where you charged with that crime in the came town that you will by applying to?

If that is a Yes,then I would say don't bother. They already have made up their minds about you.


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## Eagle13 (Jun 12, 2008)

matt said:


> So more or less I feel like the question about becoming an officer has been answered... So my question that Im still unsure about... Straight yes or no would I be still be eligible with the CWOF to get and FID/LTC?
> 
> You guys have been really helpful and its much appreciated.


It all depends on what town/city you live in and how they interpret the law.

Check out these threads from Northeastshooters.com. They have a ton of info and could probably answer this question for you among other firearm licensing questions.

Northeastshooters.com - Threads Tagged with cwof
MA Gun Laws - Page 5 - Northeastshooters.com

Goodluck!!!


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

Thank you guys so much. Really a lot of informative stuff. I really do appreciate everyones honest and open answer. Also the respect in everyones answers was great, because I am sure with the sheer amount of these type of questions you guys get on a daily basis it would of been easy for you guys to just ignore it or just as easily bash me. So again thank you so much for all the answers and links to other sources I will definetly be checking those out....

Thanks for everything you guys do and stay safe out there!


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## 7costanza (Aug 29, 2006)

> Thank you guys so much. Really a lot of informative stuff. I really do appreciate everyones honest and open answer. Also the respect in everyones answers was great, because I am sure with the sheer amount of these type of questions you guys get on a daily basis it would of been easy for you guys to just ignore it or just as easily bash me. So again thank you so much for all the answers and links to other sources I will definetly be checking those out....
> 
> Thanks for everything you guys do and stay safe out there!


Another happy customer.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

He might just be okay on the LTC issue.

According to one of those NES posts by "Gil" (http://www.northeastshooters.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26138), the legislature proposed a change to ch. 140, § 121 so that the definition of a conviction includes CWOF's. Currently it does not.



> "Conviction", a finding or verdict of guilt or a plea of guilty, whether or not final sentence is imposed.


http://www.mass.gov/legis/laws/mgl/140-121.htm


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

7costanza said:


> Another happy customer.


I know! Where did we go wrong?


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## 7costanza (Aug 29, 2006)

> I know! Where did we go wrong?


Hahaha....I know right " Please come back, I know we can insult you, give us another chance " ......


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## grn3charlie (Jul 18, 2005)

263FPD said:


> I know! Where did we go wrong?





7costanza said:


> Hahaha....I know right " Please come back, I know we can insult you, give us another chance " ......


A kinder gentler MC. Y'all come back now ya hear!


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

grn3charlie said:


> A kinder gentler MC. Y'all come back now ya hear!


Me? Kinder? Gentler? I will have to tell my chief that I am ready for that community service assignment. I will kiss all babies and shake all hands


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## grn3charlie (Jul 18, 2005)

263FPD said:


> Me? Kinder? Gentler? I will have to tell my chief that I am ready for that community service assignment. I will kiss all babies and shake all hands


Don't forget passing out flyers at information booths.


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## Eagle13 (Jun 12, 2008)

263FPD said:


> Me? Kinder? Gentler? I will have to tell my chief that I am ready for that community service assignment. I will kiss all babies and shake all hands


Just don't kiss all the hands and shake all the babies. I always confuse those two things.


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## Courtman (Aug 29, 2011)

Matt,

As a pre-law student, and someone who was once in your shoes, I can answer this for you, Mass police without law degree's have just as much knowledge of law as yourself, They have not been through law school nor do they understand implications or interpretations of Massachusetts law, While they do understand the law in regards to what is illegal and the acts itself, They cannot certainly answer whether you would be disqualified from the FID process or a police academy. The truth of the matter is if you are disqualified from the FID process in your town, I recommend you contact GOAL or gun owners action league they will provide you with an attorney to quickly clean things up, Your cwof is not a CONVICTION, it is not in the departments hands to judge whether it is an admittance of guilt or not. The second amendment and federal law indicates that the use of firearms is prohibited to CONVICTED felon's, you are not convicted, if you had completed your cwof probation period as a juvenile without any other arrest record your record will only show only an arrest record and it will come up as dismissed. Do not lie on your application when referring to question 9, you do have to say you have been arrested but that is not an automatic disqualifier, In addition what officer orbi failed to tell you is that there is an exception to mass law in regards to your fid if your crime was non violent and committed 5 years prior to the submission of your application you may not be disqualified assuming you have withheld good citizenship. Next time please contact an Attorney before limiting what you would like to do based on an open forum. Good luck hope all is well.


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## DEI8 (Jan 20, 2006)

_*As a pre-law student, and someone who was once in your shoes, I can answer this for you, Mass police without law degree's have just as much knowledge of law as yourself, They have not been through law school nor do they understand implications or interpretations of Massachusetts law, While they do understand the law in regards to what is illegal and the acts itself, They cannot certainly answer whether you would be disqualified from the FID process or a police academy.

*_

Wow!!! What a first post!!!

I am gonna sit back and watch this.


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## ShmitDiesel (May 21, 2010)

HA! This should be good.

View attachment 2738


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## niteowl1970 (Jul 7, 2009)

Courtman said:


> Matt,
> 
> As a pre-law student,


When you finish your degree and pass the bar exam THEN come back and spew your bullshit. Until then all you are is just another college student.

View attachment 2740


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## lofu (Feb 25, 2006)

As a PRE-Law student, you actually know less about the law and how its applied than a Police Officer with years of applying the law as written, not to mention keeping up with constant updates and case law. Maybe after you complete law school I'll give you the respect you deserve but for now just STFU. You didn't tell the OP anything more than he already was told smart ass. 

To the OP, a CWOF is not a conviction in the eyes of the law but a hard ass Chief could still disqualify you for your LTC. It would then be up to you to appeal. But what do I know, I'm not PRE-Law.


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## Goose (Dec 1, 2004)

Talk about bringing back the dead for a first post...the thread is two years old!


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## kav (Sep 25, 2010)

frank said:


> Talk about bringing back the dead for a first post...the thread is two years old!


Yeah, I was interested until I saw this thread was from fucking 2009.



Courtman said:


> As a pre-law student, and someone who was once in your shoes


So what are your CWOFs?



Courtman said:


> Next time please contact an Attorney before limiting what you would like to do based on an open forum. Good luck hope all is well.


Fuck off.


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## Guest (Aug 30, 2011)

Courtman said:


> Matt,
> 
> As a pre-law student, and someone who was once in your shoes, I can answer this for you, Mass police without law degree's have just as much knowledge of law as yourself, They have not been through law school nor do they understand implications or interpretations of Massachusetts law, While they do understand the law in regards to what is illegal and the acts itself, They cannot certainly answer whether you would be disqualified from the FID process or a police academy. The truth of the matter is if you are disqualified from the FID process in your town, I recommend you contact GOAL or gun owners action league they will provide you with an attorney to quickly clean things up, Your cwof is not a CONVICTION, it is not in the departments hands to judge whether it is an admittance of guilt or not. The second amendment and federal law indicates that the use of firearms is prohibited to CONVICTED felon's, you are not convicted, if you had completed your cwof probation period as a juvenile without any other arrest record your record will only show only an arrest record and it will come up as dismissed. Do not lie on your application when referring to question 9, you do have to say you have been arrested but that is not an automatic disqualifier, In addition what officer orbi failed to tell you is that there is an exception to mass law in regards to your fid if your crime was non violent and committed 5 years prior to the submission of your application you may not be disqualified assuming you have withheld good citizenship. Next time please contact an Attorney before limiting what you would like to do based on an open forum. Good luck hope all is well.


Douche n00b....I have a newsflash for you; any police academy graduate in Massachusetts knows more about criminal law than any freshly-minted graduate of Harvard Law School.

Why?

Because the police academy concentrates on things like probable cause and rights of arrest instead of contracts, torts, the Uniform Commercial Code, and moot court.

Now, having said my piece;

View attachment 2741


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## HistoryHound (Aug 30, 2008)

Courtman said:


> Matt,
> 
> As a pre-law student, and someone who was once in your shoes, I can answer this for you, Mass police without law degree's have just as much knowledge of law as yourself, They have not been through law school nor do they understand implications or interpretations of Massachusetts law, While they do understand the law in regards to what is illegal and the acts itself, They cannot certainly answer whether you would be disqualified from the FID process or a police academy. The truth of the matter is if you are disqualified from the FID process in your town, I recommend you contact GOAL or gun owners action league they will provide you with an attorney to quickly clean things up, Your cwof is not a CONVICTION, it is not in the departments hands to judge whether it is an admittance of guilt or not. The second amendment and federal law indicates that the use of firearms is prohibited to CONVICTED felon's, you are not convicted, if you had completed your cwof probation period as a juvenile without any other arrest record your record will only show only an arrest record and it will come up as dismissed. Do not lie on your application when referring to question 9, you do have to say you have been arrested but that is not an automatic disqualifier, In addition what officer orbi failed to tell you is that there is an exception to mass law in regards to your fid if your crime was non violent and committed 5 years prior to the submission of your application you may not be disqualified assuming you have withheld good citizenship. Next time please contact an Attorney before limiting what you would like to do based on an open forum. Good luck hope all is well.


I only pointed out the things that really bothered me about your post. If you're going to be a lawyer; then, you might want to learn the difference between a comma and a period. If I am mistaken and you really meant to have that many commas in your post; then, please learn that the first word after a comma is not capitalized. However proper names are capitalized, so you should have capitalized both Officer and Obie and next time you criticize someone try spelling their name correctly.

While I am not a police officer, I feel perfectly justified commenting on and criticizing your post because I took a number of law classes in college making me an expert on this topic. I also took several psychology classes so if you feel the need to share your feelings, I'm qualified to help you with your feelings.

View attachment 2744


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## DEI8 (Jan 20, 2006)

Well If I were you I wouldn't listen to any of these people. I am the only one who is qualified to give advise, cause I know the law better than any one!!

Why you ask, I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express last night.

Holiday Inn Express Commercial - YouTube


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## zm88 (Mar 5, 2009)

I actually passed the bar exam hours before Hurricane Irene


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## csauce777 (Jan 10, 2005)

niteowl1970 said:


> When you finish your degree and pass the bar exam


FINISH his degree? How about even starting it. PRE law student = wanna be dumbass college kid. Every college kid who ever thought of law school is "Pre law."

It's like saying every security guard is "pre cop."

Oh...BTW...

View attachment 2746


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

Oh man oh man, how did this thread go so bad...... Some great advice was offered up, and I thank you guys for that. Someone always has to come along and be the know it all. 

Update, 
I have not applied for any law enforcement, I have been in school studying social work and juvenile justice the past couple of years. I did almost go the Army route, but messed up my back about 2 months before I was suppose to ship so they ship sailed without me. Still not sure what I want to do, but I am still thinking of applying to LE somewhere once I get my degree. I mean really the worse that can happen is they deny me. Again even though it was 2 yrs ago thanks for all of your guys insight at the time.


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## CJIS (Mar 12, 2005)

I am supprised this one was not used first.










and now for


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

mtc said:


> Reading through the old ressurection I was starting to wonder what you ended up doing.
> 
> Screwed up your back so bad the ARMY didn't want you - I don't know if you'll handing an academy - or be able to work as a police officer.
> 
> ...


My back is fine now (has handled college soccer and lacrosse with ease), but at the time they were worried that it wouldn't be able to handle what I had originally enlisted for. Was suppose to be a combat engineer with airborne. They were still going to let me ship, but didn't want to allow me to keep my airborne training slot. That was a a no go for me, especially because it was just another thing in a long line of the recruiter jerking me around. 
Hey I just wanna help people, we all have to do that in different ways. I still hope to become a LEO in the coming years, but knowing that it may not be entirely possible I am creating other opportunities for myself. I never listen to "pre" anything. They are usually the worse cause they feel as if they have learned everything and are better than everyone, when often they don't know shat.


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

Not to derail this thread any further, but since its already there. 

Yeah it was less the airborne and more it was just another way the recruiter was changing things on me the last minute. Really he was just afraid of me getting bounced and losing his points. Plus obviously because of the things I have disclosed in my original post I required a morale waiver, which is another thing that I was pretty sure he lied on and I didn't want that coming back on me. So like I said it was a whole list of things with him.

So my plan now is to get my degree(s) in Social work (don't worry im not some hippie liberal) and Juvenile Justice and Youth Advocacy, then look outside the state at police departments that would be willing to accept me "as is". 

I honestly don't think that the army would even be an option anymore, considering I needed a morale waiver the first time around, and would need that again as well as a waiver for not shipping (or so I have been told, I had only signed the DEP contract so I don't actually know).


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## Guest (Oct 25, 2011)

matt said:


> I needed a morale waiver the first time around,


WTF is a morale waiver?

The Army doesn't want morale these days?


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## niteowl1970 (Jul 7, 2009)

Delta784 said:


> WTF is a morale waiver?
> 
> The Army doesn't want morale these days?


I couldn't find anything on "morale" waivers. I found some articles about "moral" waivers which excuse past criminal activity by the recruit. Perhaps the OP had the two words mixed up.


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

mtc said:


> The term candyass is coming to mind...


That is completely fair... I was just stating what I have heard, which is if you back out before you sign the final contract to ever have a chance again you would need a waiver. Again I don't know how these things work.



Delta784 said:


> WTF is a morale waiver?
> 
> The Army doesn't want morale these days?


Forgot the great sense of humor you guys had around hear. So about the spelling causing the confusion. Just anybody that they consider of questionable morals needs to get a waiver.

---------- Post added at 02:07 ---------- Previous post was at 02:05 ----------



niteowl1970 said:


> I couldn't find anything on "morale" waivers. I found some articles about "moral" waivers which excuse past criminal activity by the recruit. Perhaps the OP had the two words mixed up.


Yes, sorry been up for a while and it simply slipped my attention that I was using the wrong word. Sorry for the confusion gentleman.


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## matt (Nov 4, 2009)

mtc said:


> Oh - I was thinking you were looking for a waiver from being shipped out - like deployed - in a war zone!
> 
> It can be done without military - my best friends son is a cop in Florida - and he went into the academy at age 19 - passed his state boards and has been on the job for about a year now, and just turned 21.
> 
> NO college either.


That is pretty awesome for him. Goes to show what you can get when you want something bad enough. That would actually be kind of funny seeing someone enlist but requesting not to be deployed. I would love to see the look on their CO face when a request like that is made.

So it seems that my best route is finish College, then look out of state to see what is available.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Courtman said:


> Matt,
> 
> As a pre-law student, and someone who was once in your shoes, I can answer this for you, Mass police without law degree's have just as much knowledge of law as yourself, They have not been through law school nor do they understand implications or interpretations of Massachusetts law, While they do understand the law in regards to what is illegal and the acts itself, They cannot certainly answer whether you would be disqualified from the FID process or a police academy. The truth of the matter is if you are disqualified from the FID process in your town, I recommend you contact GOAL or gun owners action league they will provide you with an attorney to quickly clean things up, Your cwof is not a CONVICTION, it is not in the departments hands to judge whether it is an admittance of guilt or not. The second amendment and federal law indicates that the use of firearms is prohibited to CONVICTED felon's, you are not convicted, if you had completed your cwof probation period as a juvenile without any other arrest record your record will only show only an arrest record and it will come up as dismissed. Do not lie on your application when referring to question 9, you do have to say you have been arrested but that is not an automatic disqualifier, In addition what officer orbi failed to tell you is that there is an exception to mass law in regards to your fid if your crime was non violent and committed 5 years prior to the submission of your application you may not be disqualified assuming you have withheld good citizenship. Next time please contact an Attorney before limiting what you would like to do based on an open forum. Good luck hope all is well.


Yeah, okay.

I guarantee the average cop knows 90% more about MA criminal law and procedure than the average new lawyer.
I won't go into my basis of knowledge at the moment, but rest assured officer orbi knows what he's talking about.

Additionally, if this guy had read the OP he would have seen that Matt was asking about a license in regards to getting on the job. While his point on an FID is correct he misses the point--that being most departments require an LTC as a matter of policy, and if you can't get one you can't be a cop.

But I guess us cops without law degrees have no idea what we're talking about...

Matt, glad to hear you're doing well. Don't the let the recruiter jack you around. Those guys are one step above used car salesmen, and just like buying a car, if you don't like the deal you're offered, walking away from the table is the way to go.

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## Guest (Oct 29, 2011)

OfficerObie59 said:


> I guarantee the average cop knows 90% more about MA criminal law and procedure than the average new lawyer.


If you want to see a new MA law school graduate's eyes glaze over (including Harvard Law), ask them to describe the 5 rights of arrest in Massachusetts. Feel free to mention the "Hogan Hand Chart", but it won't do any good.

With apologies and all due (earned) respect to Officer Obie, if you want to learn about contracts, torts, and the Uniform Commercial Code, then go to law school. If you want to learn about criminal law and procedure, go to the police academy. It's a Hell of a lot cheaper (usually free), a lot shorter, and you'll probably emerge with a better-paying job than the ADA's who prosecute your arrests, which is a damn shame.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

My wife is a practicing attorney and frequently asks me questions about criminal law and procedure. You can read the law and know what it allows you to do, but knowledge for how that equates to action is far more important. 

As a prime example, my wife has said she finds Pat Rogers' Crim Pro texts far more useful than any other book in her law office.


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