# Civil Service use questioned by area PD's



## PBC FL Cop

*By Paula J. Owen TELEGRAM & GAZETTE STAFF*
In the fall, the Fitchburg Police Department received funding to hire three officers. But finding suitable officers took months - and not because of a shortage of talented people interested in police jobs.

The reason, according to Police Chief Robert A. DeMoura, is that Fitchburg is one of a minority of communities in Massachusetts that still use the Civil Service system. Using the system for hiring is slow and inefficient, he said. When his department received the OK to hire the new officers, it had to restrict its choices to lists provided by the Civil Service unit. The first list did not have adequate candidates, he said.

"The top contender that is number one on the list could potentially have been arrested," he said. "Nothing precludes them from taking the test and they can take it and be at the top, depending on their score. Some departments hire people with certain records - serious motor vehicle records and criminal citations. To me, that is not a top candidate."

If a department bypasses candidates at the top of the list, it must send a letter substantiating the reasons, Chief DeMoura said. Those candidates have 60 days to contest the letter at no cost, but the appeals can cost the city thousands of dollars, he said. Chief DeMoura is just one of several Worcester County police chiefs who say the system needs to be revamped. Many communities have already abandoned it.

Retired Shrewsbury Police Chief A. Wayne Sampson , executive director of the Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association, said at least one Massachusetts municipality a month is opting out of using the Civil Service system for hiring and for promotions for chief and deputy chief positions. However, if a community wants to do away with using Civil Service completely, it must negotiate with its unions - a much longer and more difficult process. Provincetown and Wellesley recently completely opted out, and about a half-dozen communities in the state are currently in negotiations to do so, he said.

In Worcester County, only 33 percent of municipalities are Civil Service communities, while 47 percent in the state use the system. "Towns want to make sure there is a well-established process for both hiring and promotions," Mr. Sampson said. "We've seen that when a community really does their research and finds out there are viable alternatives, especially in the area of the promotion process, they become comfortable with the programs that are out there."

Under the Civil Service system, state and municipal employees are hired and promoted through a merit system based on scores on a competitive examination. The Civil Service Unit within the Human Resources Division at the Executive Office of Administration and Finance runs the merit system.

Although the Massachusetts Chiefs of Police Association holds a neutral position on the subject, its current president, Kingston Police Chief Joseph J. Rebello, who has served as chief in both non-Civil Service and Civil Service communities, said it is much easier to function without Civil Service.

Kingston is the only Civil Service municipality where he has served as chief, Chief Rebello said.

"After coming here, I see it is a cumbersome way to operate a police department," Chief Rebello said. "Getting any type of hiring list, promotion list, or anything of that nature, you are on somebody else's clock."

He said that when a police department is faced with an unplanned opening, trying to get a list of candidates who have taken the exam in time to put them through the police academy takes too much time. "In a small department, manpower is an issue, and you don't have a lot of leeway for spending time on hiring," he explained. "You have to pay overtime until you can get someone through the process."

One of the problems, said Chief Rebello, is major budget cuts to the Civil Service Unit. Alex Zaroulis, spokesman for the Executive Office of Administration and Finance, said that since October 2008, four of the six employees in that unit have been laid off. "Within the last few years, major budget cuts to Civil Service have made an ineffective system even more inefficient," Chief Rebello said. Municipalities, however, do not make the move away from using Civil Service, he said, because that, too, is a cumbersome process. "Most chiefs' positions were removed from Civil Service and this is fairly easy to do," Chief Rebello said. "An entire department is much more cumbersome."

Clinton Police Chief Mark R. Laverdure said it has taken him months to hire five needed patrolmen. If Clinton were a non-Civil Service town, he said, he could have placed an advertisement in the paper and hired them in a month. Chief Laverdure said he recently talked with the town manager about the matter.

"The reason for Civil Service, originally, was to eliminate political influences in hiring," he said. "But that is not a problem anymore. Everyone wants the best possible candidate out there, and all you need to take the Civil Service exam is a GED and driver's license. Just because you score well on a paper test doesn't mean you're an excellent candidate."

There is also preferential treatment given to veterans on the list, he said, regardless of what they scored on the exam. "Kids that have gone to school for this, and prepared for this, and spent money for a degree are not even being considered," he said. "They are ranked way below veterans." Gardner Deputy Police Chief Rock A. Barrieau said departments lose seats in the police academy while waiting for Civil Service lists.

"It is taxing on any city or town to hire through the Civil Service," he said. "(In non-Civil Service communities) veterans coming back from tours in the Marine Corps in Iraq can just pop in, in great shape, have training as military police and they can hire you. You can't do that here. You have to wait for the results from the Civil Service and hope the person scores high enough to even be in the running."

Lunenburg has always been a non-Civil Service town, says Police Chief Daniel F. Bourgeois. "We're not locked into a list," he said. "It expedites the process when you don't have to go through that specific regimen of Civil Service. If people here retire or leave suddenly, we're in a bind because it is a limited force and we have to fill positions quick. We get to look at a candidate in its entirety - education and employment - not just someone on a list off an exam."

In Auburn and Uxbridge, where the police chiefs' positions are part of the Civil Service system, the chiefs favor the system. Auburn Police Chief Andrew J. Sluckis Jr. said Civil Service takes politics out of decision making. Chiefs do not have to worry about not having their contract renewed every three years, he said, or having just-cause clauses written into their contracts.

Uxbridge Chief Scott J. Freitas said although the system is very difficult to navigate and needs reform, he favors the layer of protection it provides in decision making.As much as officials say reform is needed, state Sen. Stephen M. Brewer, D-Barre, said, no bills have been filed for that purpose.

"Until we find a way to give a job applicant a leg up because they are a veteran or child of a person killed in the line of duty while serving in public safety - until the system addresses those issues - I will support it," said Mr. Brewer. "I acknowledge there are problems and it takes too long and is too cumbersome. If funding would solve that, it would be nice, but I cannot guarantee funding when there is difficulty funding problems across the board."


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## 7costanza

The reason, according to Police Chief Robert A. DeMoura, is that Fitchburg is one of a minority of communities in Massachusetts that still use the Civil Service system.



Wtf....isn't that the exact opposite.


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## sdb29

And the blatant politicization of Massachusetts law enforcement continues. 

How much is a set of stripes going to cost?

"Look Chief. I don't care if you think this guy is a lazy layabout and he uses thirty sick days a year. He's the nephew of the chairman of the Finance Committee. You want new cruisers this year? Hire him."

I'm not saying this stuff goes on all the time, but the potential is there. For a recent example check out the Fall River Fire department Lt promoted to Chief over 10 or so higher ranking and more qualified people. 

Civil Service isn't the best, and it can be manipulated too, but at least they have to work at manipulating it.


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## Guest

PBC FL Cop said:


> When his department received the OK to hire the new officers, it had to restrict its choices to lists provided by the Civil Service unit. The first list did not have adequate candidates, he said.


Translation: There was no one with political connections on the list who I could hire to pay back favors owed, or to curry favor with some politicians.


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## CJIS

"Chief DeMoura is just one of several Worcester County police chiefs who say the system needs to be revamped. "

Agreed.


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## Herrdoktor

Delta784 said:


> Translation: There was no one with political connections on the list who I could hire to pay back favors owed, or to curry favor with some politicians.


This.

To think that there is no one qualified on that list is a fucking insult to every guy working his ass off trying to get on this job.


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## firefighter39

I work in a non-civil circus town (both PD and FD), and while I agree that CS needs an overhaul I wish we had it. I have seen people get promoted who were not even able to get hired on a CS dept because they could not pass the CS enterance exam, and now they are supervisors!


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## Herrdoktor

> "It is taxing on any city or town to hire through the Civil Service," he said. "(In non-Civil Service communities) veterans coming back from tours in the Marine Corps in Iraq can just pop in, in great shape, have training as military police and they can hire you.


When has this ever happened?


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## Guest

firefighter39 said:


> I work in a non-civil circus town (both PD and FD), and while I agree that CS needs an overhaul I wish we had it. I have seen people get promoted who were not even able to get hired on a CS dept because they could not pass the CS enterance exam, and now they are supervisors!


The only thing I see that needs overhauling with the CS system is how bypasses are handled. If a department bypasses someone and they win their appeal, that department should be heavily fined by the state.

When they think about jumping 5 veterans to get to the nephew of a friend of a cousin of a political bigshot, and face paying a $1 million fine for each person jumped (the fine can be scaled according to the size of the municipality), the bullshit games will come to a screeching halt.


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## SgtAndySipowicz

I think Civil Service in MA is good and bad. I think the *current testing procedures* help "limit" the political bullshit.

I totally disagree with "_*residency*_" requirements. I believe some towns (Carver?) are civil service but they don't have "residency preference". In other words, you could take the MA civil service test and be a resident of Montana. If you top the list and list Carver as a choice, you will get the job (assuming you pass the other steps). How could anyone argue that your not getting some of the best candidates then (nationwide candidate list versus a small town's population etc)? In my opinion you definitely limit the "talent pool" when you limit it to a particular city/town's residents. I don't buy the argument of growing up in a particular town/city makes you a better Cop for that same municipality. If anything it is a negative as everyone "knows" everyone, constant late night phone calls etc (I got a phone call recently at 0200AM from a guy I hadn't talked to in several years. I thought for sure someone was dead).

Why is it that Boston residents are the only ones who can be Boston Cops? Does the private sector work like this? Ahhhh no......Most, if not all, other big cities hire from all over........


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## SgtAndySipowicz

Delta784 said:


> The only thing I see that needs overhauling with the CS system is how *bypasses* are handled. If a department bypasses someone and they win their appeal, that department should be heavily fined by the state.
> 
> When they think about jumping 5 veterans to get to the nephew of a friend of a cousin of a political bigshot, and face paying a $1 million fine for each person jumped (the fine can be scaled according to the size of the municipality), the bullshit games will come to a screeching halt.


*For me it would be this and "residency" as well. Residency has to go, open up the talent pool. It's our backup.........*


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## Guest

SgtAndySipowicz said:


> I think Civil Service in MA is good and bad. I think the *current testing procedures* help "limit" the political bullshit.
> 
> I totally disagree with "_*residency*_" requirements.


Civil service has no residency requirements, those are determined by the individual municipalities. MGL requires that you live within 15 miles (closest border to closest border) from the municipality where you work, but CS has no residency requirements.

As for residency _preference, _I agree that you should have some level of commitment to the city or town where you work. Additionally, it saves on break-in time if a new recruit at least knows the basic geography of where he/she works.

Be careful what you wish for; our department is one of the most desired in the state, so without residency preference, we may never hire another resident again, so your sons or daughters might get blocked from following in your footsteps by veterans with 99's and 100's from Whatley and Hubbardston.


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## SgtAndySipowicz

Delta784 said:


> Civil service has no residency requirements, those are determined by the individual municipalities. MGL requires that you live within 15 miles (closest border to closest border) from the municipality where you work, but CS has no residency requirements.
> 
> As for residency _preference, _I agree that you should have some level of commitment to the city or town where you work. Additionally, it saves on break-in time if a new recruit at least knows the basic geography of where he/she works.
> 
> Be careful what you wish for; our department is one of the most desired in the state, so without residency preference, we may never hire another resident again, so your sons or daughters might get blocked from following in your footsteps by veterans with 99's and 100's from Whatley and Hubbardston.


*I see what your saying, but if my kids chose this path I would probably try to steer them elsewhere (different state). I am not a big fan as to how things are run where we work right now. The phone calls etc (politicians and the like) that go on seem to be a requirement to get a "specialty" job etc, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know things could change, but just saying....... I make the best of things, but I think you and I could agree that there are the "connected" people and the rest of us (I hope my observations are wrong, but it just seems quite obvious to me)......*


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## Herrdoktor

mtc said:


> My son absolutely wants to be a Trooper.
> 
> I'd prefer he'd try being a Trooper, or a local, in some state that supports law enforcement.
> 
> Not here.


The thing I will never understand on why it's so difficult to be a police officer in Massachusetts. I don't know if it's the culture, society, politics or whatever that drives so many people to be a cop.

You can go to any number of states (mostly in the south) and they can't beg enough people to try to get on their departments.

We are so understaffed right now that it's comical and it has nothing to do with our budget or the economy.


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## Guest

SgtAndySipowicz said:


> *I see what your saying, but if my kids chose this path I would probably try to steer them elsewhere (different state). I am not a big fan as to how things are run where we work right now. The phone calls etc (politicians and the like) that go on seem to be a requirement to get a "specialty" job etc, just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. I know things could change, but just saying....... I make the best of things, but I think you and I could agree that there are the "connected" people and the rest of us (I hope my observations are wrong, but it just seems quite obvious to me)......*


I hope my kids choose another career field altogether, but if they want to be cops and stay close to home, I'd encourage them the same I would if they want to go out of state.

As for politics, that's been going on since I arrived at 1 Sea Street, and will continue long after I'm gone, it's just gotten exponentially worse over the last 3-4 years. We now have a three-level caste system; the haves, the wanna-haves who will shamelessly suck ass to be a have, and the have-nots. Unfortunately, the first two categories now outnumber the third for the first time in my QPD career.

July 2021......see ya!



Herrdoktor said:


> The thing I will never understand on why it's so difficult to be a police officer in Massachusetts. I don't know if it's the culture, society, politics or whatever that drives so many people to be a cop.
> 
> You can go to any number of states (mostly in the south) and they can't beg enough people to try to get on their departments.
> 
> We are so understaffed right now that it's comical and it has nothing to do with our budget or the economy.


Because we're a union state with some of the highest salaries & best benefits for police in the country. Unfortunately, we also have among the highest cost of living, but that doesn't mean anything to someone who already lives here, and is used to it.


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## OfficerObie59

Police leaders don't want to get rid of CS so the can hire who they want--they want to get rid of it so they can fire who they want.

CS is just as much about retention as it is hiring.

There are so many half-truths spouted by leadership in that article, it's stunning. The best part is the second paragraph quote by the Gardner chief suggesting that getting rid of the lag time in the hiring process to veterans would somehow better serve them than the current system.


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## Guest

OfficerObie59 said:


> Police leaders don't want to get rid of CS so the can hire who they want--they want to get rid of it so they can fire who they want.
> 
> CS is just as much about retention as it is hiring.


Actually, CS is very pro-management right now for discipline (not for bypass) cases. I was involved in 2 termination cases when I was union president, and our labor counsel strongly recommended we exercise our option under the CBA and use an arbitrator instead of CS, we did, and we were 2-0.....both were ordered re-hired. During that same time, the supervisor's union took their 1 termination case to CS, and lost it badly.

The days of "I'm civil service, it takes an act of Congress to fire me" are gone.



OfficerObie59 said:


> There are so many half-truths spouted by leadership in that article, it's stunning. The best part is the second paragraph quote by the Gardner chief suggesting that getting rid of the lag time in the hiring process to veterans would somehow better serve them than the current system.


Veterans are getting screwed now (my PD has a horrendous track record with bypassing veterans), I can't even imagine the shenanigans that would go on without CS.


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## Edmizer1

Delta784 said:


> The only thing I see that needs overhauling with the CS system is how bypasses are handled. If a department bypasses someone and they win their appeal, that department should be heavily fined by the state.
> 
> When they think about jumping 5 veterans to get to the nephew of a friend of a cousin of a political bigshot, and face paying a $1 million fine for each person jumped (the fine can be scaled according to the size of the municipality), the bullshit games will come to a screeching halt.


Delta, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. The selectboard in my town is spending a small fortune in legal fees fighting some labor issues that they know they will eventually lose. They pursue them anyways, just because they want to be as difficult as they can out of spite on those issues. I've seen it over and over in my career where management does what they want and just pays the piper later with other people's money (taxpayers).


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## Guest

Edmizer1 said:


> Delta, I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. The selectboard in my town is spending a small fortune in legal fees fighting some labor issues that they know they will eventually lose. They pursue them anyways, just because they want to be as difficult as they can out of spite on those issues. I've seen it over and over in my career where management does what they want and just pays the piper later with other people's money (taxpayers).


Politicians love to spout "legal fees" when referencing lawsuits, when in fact it's costing them almost nothing, because the city/town solicitors are already being paid. It doesn't matter if they're arguing a lawsuit in court or shuffling papers or doing a crossword puzzle in their offices, they get paid the same, regardless.

My city could have said that the Occupy vermin cost the city thousands of dollars, because they sent a bunch of us up to McIntyre Mall in anticipation of their arrival for 3 days straight. The problem is, we were on-duty and being paid anyway, the same as a city/town solicitor is when they're in court to defend a lawsuit.

Mark my words: Institute a $1 million+ fine per person who is wrongfully jumped on the CS list, and all of a sudden it won't seem like such a great idea.


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## lofu

I would agree except for the cases in which a person is rightfully skipped (background check) and then a new admin comes in and games are played with the appeal before voila, they are hired.


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## Guest

lofu said:


> I would agree except for the cases in which a person is rightfully skipped (background check) and then a new admin comes in and games are played with the appeal before voila, they are hired.


A legitimate background issue is a sure-fire loser at a CS appeal, and a new administration hiring someone who has already lost a CS appeal would stink to high heaven.

Not to say it wouldn't happen.....nothing surprises me anymore.


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## pahapoika

*Because we're a union state with some of the highest salaries & best benefits for police in the country. Unfortunately, we also have among the highest cost of living, but that doesn't mean anything to someone who already lives here, and is used to it.*

buddy talked to a kid recently hired down south. he's covered by the department's medical , but his wife and kids aren't !

low pay and no union protection would be my guess why no one is running south looking for work.


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## Herrdoktor

pahapoika said:


> *Because we're a union state with some of the highest salaries & best benefits for police in the country. Unfortunately, we also have among the highest cost of living, but that doesn't mean anything to someone who already lives here, and is used to it.*
> 
> buddy talked to a kid recently hired down south. he's covered by the department's medical , but his wife and kids aren't !
> 
> low pay and no union protection would be my guess why no one is running south looking for work.


There are plenty of guys going south. My point with this


> I don't know if it's the culture, society, politics or whatever that drives so many people to be a cop.


 was more to the fact that not many southerns (at least in VA) want to be police officers.

Pretty soon my department (one of the largest in VA) will have a born out of state majority. Ten years from now it won't even be close. My squad of 15 guys has 3 Virginians.

The largest groups of guys are from OH (a cs state btw), MA, PA, NY and NJ.


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## Hush

Talked to a Reading guy, they're out by July 1st. The union was split 14-13, and the town made some decent concessions. The town is also looking forward to "test administration fees"...

Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


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## fra444

Hush said:


> Talked to a Reading guy, they're out by July 1st. The union was split 14-13, and the town made some decent concessions. The town is also looking forward to "test administration fees"...
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


HUGE mistake......


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## Bloodhound

Hush said:


> Talked to a Reading guy, they're out by July 1st. The union was split 14-13, and the town made some decent concessions. The town is also looking forward to "test administration fees"...
> 
> Sent from my DROID X2 using Tapatalk


That's a pretty big decision to make with a one vote margin. We would require a 2/3 vote for that.


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## firefighter39

I am willing to bet that the 14 lemmings all think they can now suck-ass their way into a promotion. They will also be the first one screaming when the cheif and town turn on them and they have no CS protection to fall back on. 

This is just proof that everyone has a price and these 14 have been bought and sold.


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## 263FPD

Like it or not Chiefie, Civil Circus as fucked up as it may be, keeps the likes of you assholes, in check. It doesn't let you hire any one the hell you please. It doesn't let you fire any one that you just don't like. Too bad and, so sad, adhere to the rules. Hire some deserving veterans for fuck's sake. The list has to have a few on it. 


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## 263FPD

In Florida, if I understand it correctly, cop pays no state tax out of his check, and the retirement isn't deducted either. So paying family's premiums probably balances out to some degree. Though I think the single guy on the local PD is short sighted. He may not stay single for ever, and then what?


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## Sgt Jack

263FPD said:


> In Florida, if I understand it correctly, cop pays no state tax out of his check, and the retirement isn't deducted either


 Actually as of last year the Govenor started to require that all employees in FRS start paying 3% of their pay towards their pensions as well as changes to COLA's, vesting, what age you can retire. Right now there's a class action lawsuit filed against the Governor because of this and it's winding its way through the courts. A Judge just ruled in favor of all the FRS employee's but the Governor office says that they'll be appealing that ruling.


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## Herrdoktor

mtc said:


> A friend of mine on my local PD told me the same thing.. his argument is - he's single, he works for the City, the City covers him... why should his insurance contribution go towards the next guys bills for his kids - covered by the city. (City is self insured)
> His step brother is a cop in some Florida town... they do the same thing, cover the employee, for his family coverage he foots the whole premium (or rather, the difference anyway). Apparently it's much the same in the private sector as well.


In VA you have the option of paying whatever insurance you want for yourself and your family. It's also a tiered system so the amount you pay each month can differ by how much coverage you want.

Also almost every major county is self insured. When you have a department with close to 2000 officers/civilians/etc no insurance company (here at least) will risk such an investment on the public sector.


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## Herrdoktor

Really the only thing down here I wish would change and reflect the northeast is the amount of details you guys have.

VA is so pro-business that they don't want to _offend_ cable companies,paving companies, etc. by requiring detail officers. Companies like Comcast and Verizon set aside millions of dollars are year knowing they will have to pay the Northeast states for details alone, but when they come down here they get to pocket that money.

Almost all of our details are security, which is fine until traffic is backed up for miles because someone is putting in new fiber optics cable or switching out new traffic lights.


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## Todd

Part of me says the city or town should be able to hire whomever they want but...... I live in a decent sized city in western MA. 20 years ago (times flies) I was 12th on the list and they were hiring 12. I got bypassed. The acting chief's son at the time who was at the bottom of the list got hired. Yeah, I got screwed. Eventually, civil service got involved, told the city the hiring practices were flawed. Next time around a year later, another dozen and I'm 6th on the list. Yep, not hired again. I don't know anyone in the political scheme of things in the city but I'm sure others knew people. I wanted to get hired on my own merits anyway. Yeah, some places need civil service in place. Where does one go if they think hiring practices are screwed up if not?


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