# Sick Time Use



## neucj424

Hey all, I'm trying to get on with several various agencies, and I had a question about sick time use. 

I know excessive sick time can reflect poorly on a potential officer during the recruiting/interview process, I'm just trying to gauge what "excessive" is. Five times a year? Ten? Thoughts/opinions/wild-ass guesses are welcome.

Thanks for all your help.


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## trueblue

Hate to do this, but it depends on your situation. Ten days per year for three years COULD be excessive if you banged in every Friday or Monday and records indicate you called in with the "sniffles". Forty sick days in one year may be completely reasonable if you were involved in a car accident and you broke your leg. Make sure you get all the documentation concerning your sick time if you are worried about it now. I wish you well in the process. Be on time for all appointments, requests for info, and make a good first impression.


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## Guest

true blue hit it pretty good management looks for patterns such as calling in sick before of after days off holidays excetra. Or large numbers every year


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## GreenMachine

just don't be the guy on shift that calls in every other weekend night to have off, we all know they are full of it

rant over...


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## neucj424

Thanks for the input everyone. At the moment I've called out 8 times in almost two years. 

(Could I have sucked it up and gone in for a few of those? Sure. But I work in a medical setting around a lot of vulnerable populations - do you want the guy walking through the nursery your newborn is in/the unit your grandmother is on to be coughing and sneezing?)

Anyway, like I said before, thanks again for the help.


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## phuzz01

Unfortunately, if you have to ask.......


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## OfficerObie59

Patterns mean a great deal, but sheer number can be just as bad.

As for the reason, try saying your Dutch Elm Disease is flaring up. Depends on how smart the person is who takes the call or how observant the person is who writes it down. 


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## OfficerObie59

neucj424 said:


> Thanks for the input everyone. At the moment I've called out 8 times in almost two years.
> 
> (Could I have sucked it up and gone in for a few of those? Sure. But I work in a medical setting around a lot of vulnerable populations - do you want the guy walking through the nursery your newborn is in/the unit your grandmother is on to be coughing and sneezing?)
> 
> Anyway, like I said before, thanks again for the help.


8 times in two years, I think you'll be ok.

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## cc3915

My sick days were usually attributed to poor vision and other eye problems. 


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## csauce777

mtc said:


> Couldn't see yourself getting your arse in there?


I hate it! Anal-glaucoma. It really sucks...


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## LA Copper

Eight times in two years at your medical job might be ok for the reasons you stated; eight times in two years at a police job to me is a bit too excessive, not counting some significant medical reason. 

Don't forget, your comrades and the people you swear an oath to protect are counting on you to be there. Maybe I'm different but if my job is to be at work to earn my paycheck, I'm gonna be there, not to mention it's a job I enjoy. Unless of course you're really sick then that's different. I've been fortunate; in 23 years I've only used 7 sick days... but that's just me.


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## Truck

Eight days in two years in police is normal, in the private sector it is excessive. Sometimes we don't know how good we have it.


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## HousingCop

*Sick days are like bread...... if you don't use them, they get stale. I earn 15 a year yet they get mad if you take half. I should tell them I am sick of work. *


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## Guest

LA Copper said:


> I've been fortunate; in 23 years I've only used 7 sick days... but that's just me.


I used more than that before January was over....got pneumonia and ended up in the emergency room.


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## LA Copper

Delta784 said:


> I used more than that before January was over....got pneumonia and ended up in the emergency room.


Bummer, I'm sorry to hear that.


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## Bloodhound

Truck said:


> Eight days in two years in police is normal, in the private sector it is excessive. Sometimes we don't know how good we have it.


That's very true. My dept average is 8 days a year. And of course we have our "regulars".


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## Guest

LA Copper said:


> Bummer, I'm sorry to hear that.


Ever since I came back from the Gulf War, I get some sort of respiratory difficulty with the change of seasons....guaranteed it's going to hit in either December-January, and then April-May. No idea if it's related to Gulf War Syndrome, but I should probably look into it.


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## Tuna

Irish Flu is a big one keeping guys home. Usually hits around the playoffs.


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## Irishpride

Tuna said:


> Irish Flu is a big one keeping guys home. Usually hits around the playoffs.


Irish flu also has a way of coming on halfway through a shift on payday


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## LA Copper

Bloodhound said:


> That's very true. My dept average is 8 days a year. And of course we have our "regulars".


Wow, eight days a year is a lot. My department average is three a year. We too have our "regulars" but there are systems in place to try to fix that.


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## firefighter39

LA Copper said:


> Don't forget, your comrades and the people you swear an oath to protect are counting on you to be there.


I will support my commrades 100%, but considering how the public views (those who work in the public sector) us they ca go F themselves. They could careless if I have the sniffles or cancer, so when I take a sick day the residents of the town are my last concern.


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## cc3915

firefighter39 said:


> I will support my commrades 100%, but considering how the public views (those who work in the public sector) us they ca go F themselves. They could careless if I have the sniffles or cancer, so when I take a sick day the residents of the town are my last concern.


That's the way I look at it. I used my sick time as I saw fit. It was my time and if the department wanted a doctors note I would be happy to provide them one. Funny thing is, they never asked for one.


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## stm4710

At one job we are given PTO. I earn X amount every week,it is my sick-vacation-personal time. I use it as i see fit. Since the company drops your rating on your review to zero if one minute or all of the time you EARNED is used. I don't feel bad calling out when I am sick. Being in a very busy urban ems system, your body has alot of demands in a 24 hour tour. I am no good coughing hacking all when your trying to manage a trauma. 8 times in 2 years...... Dont stress, I got hired with 9 in two years!!!


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## OfficerObie59

Truck said:


> Eight days in two years in police is normal, in the private sector it is excessive. Sometimes we don't know how good we have it.


Yeah, most of the private sector works 24/7/365, holidays, weekends, and overnights and has a comparable degree of danger. As to the latter, see below.


LA Copper said:


> Don't forget, your comrades and the people you swear an oath to protect are counting on you to be there.


No disrespect, but my fellow officers are also counting on me to be running at 100% when I come to work and have their backs when the SHTF--which is why if I'm sore, injured, or sick I take a day off and let someone else take my place. If your slot goes unfilled and the shift runs light, that's a working conditions/safety issue that should be taken up between your union and management.

I don't know about you, but I can guarantee if I only took 7 days off in 23 years there must have been days when I came to work at far less than 100%, and my fellow officers deserve more than that from me.

Moreover, I used to hear guys talk about taking a "mental health day". I thought it was just another term for playing hookie, but as my career goes on, some nights you simply need a break for your own sanity, particularly if you had a particularly horrid shift the night before. Burn out is so common and can creep up on you so fast. In a state where new officers will soon have to work until age 59 to reach maximum retirement (which means a 38 year career for those who get on at the minimum age of 21), keeping your head clear and keeping your sanity by use of sick time you earn and have allocated to you is a valid use if you ask me.

Whatever the case, I feel no shame in using time provided its for a valid reason and no one is forced to work (i.e., mandatorily ordered to OT) in my place.


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## Herrdoktor

Lmao to only taking 7 sick days in 23 years.

If you did that in VA you could retire like 3 years early because of how much buy back time you would have accrued.


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## Villain293

My department has an "unlimited" sick time policy, but we all know an investigation begins once you hit internal affairs magic number. However if we use less than 5 days a year there are incentives. The brass has told all of us they *expect* us to use at least 5 a year, so most do.


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## LA Copper

OfficerObie59 said:


> No disrespect, but my fellow officers are also counting on me to be running at 100% when I come to work and have their backs when the SHTF--which is why if I'm sore, injured, or sick I take a day off and let someone else take my place. If your slot goes unfilled and the shift runs light, that's a working conditions/safety issue that should be taken up between your union and management.
> 
> I don't know about you, but I can guarantee if I only took 7 days off in 23 years there must have been days when I came to work at far less than 100%, and my fellow officers deserve more than that from me.
> 
> *Whatever the case, I feel no shame in using time provided its for a valid reason and no one is forced to work (i.e., mandatorily ordered to OT) in my place*.


Your last line is what I was referring to. If you're sick then by all means, call in sick, I agree with that. We don't want the sick guy coming to work and spreading it to everyone else.

What I was referring to is the guy who decides he doesn't feel like coming to work for some reason other than being sick. As for not coming in when you're not at 100%, that happens quite frequently; with overtime, court, life, and older age going on, it's not always easy to be at 100%. However, that's what separates us in public service and those in the private sector, sometimes we just need to "tough it out" and come into work (only referring to 100%).

I also agree about mental health days; speaking for my department only, that's what we use vacation and comp time for.

I believe it's different for many of you guys back there in Mass. If I understand correctly, if someone calls in sick, you call someone in from home to replace him; is that right? Out here, if someone calls in sick, that's it, he's sick, and there is no replacement, which leaves us an officer short.

---------- Post added at 10:39 ---------- Previous post was at 10:37 ----------




Herrdoktor said:


> Lmao to only taking 7 sick days in 23 years.
> 
> If you did that in VA you could retire like 3 years early because of how much buy back time you would have accrued.


We get paid for our unused sick time so it's a benefit for anyone who doesn't use it all. That's one of the ways I've paid for my plane tickets to head back there to Mass for vacation over the years.


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## Johnny Law

LA Copper said:


> I believe it's different for many of you guys back there in Mass. If I understand correctly, if someone calls in sick, you call someone in from home to replace him; is that right? Out here, if someone calls in sick, that's it, he's sick, and there is no replacement, which leaves us an officer short.


Pretty close, they just hold the junior officer from the previous shift if the shift is short. Most have minimum staffing for each shift based on the day of the week (weekends being busier). What happens at your place if more than one guy calls in per shift, say two or three guys on the evening shift? They can't run you guys that short, or will they?

---------- Post added at 13:44 ---------- Previous post was at 13:41 ----------



LA Copper said:


> We get paid for our unused sick time so it's a benefit for anyone who doesn't use it all. That's one of the ways I've paid for my plane tickets to head back there to Mass for vacation over the years.


I'm one of the last guys to have the benefit of getting 1/3 of my unused sick time, at retirement, no matter the amount. After me, the guys with less time are capped at $5500. You have to wait until you retire to get it.


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## cousteau

Sick time is a bargained benefit. It is up to the administration to make sure man power is adequate. That's what they get paid for.


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## LA Copper

Johnny Law said:


> Pretty close, they just hold the junior officer from the previous shift if the shift is short. Most have minimum staffing for each shift based on the day of the week (weekends being busier). What happens at your place if more than one guy calls in per shift, say two or three guys on the evening shift? They can't run you guys that short, or will they?
> 
> I'm one of the last guys to have the benefit of getting 1/3 of my unused sick time, at retirement, no matter the amount. After me, the guys with less time are capped at $5500. You have to wait until you retire to get it.


When folks call in sick here, we "go under," we don't call people in from home. When our call load becomes too much or when we need more people for a crime scene or perimeter and don't have enough within our own division, we call in officers from neighboring divisions. Kinda like officers in Weymouth having to call in officers from Braintree to help out. I guess you would call it mutual aid where as we just call it "crossover" into a neighboring division. (We have 21 patrol divisions.)

As for the sick time payment, we get it paid once every year, usually in January for the previous year.


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## Guest

cousteau said:


> Sick time is a bargained benefit. It is up to the administration to make sure man power is adequate. That's what they get paid for.


I thought they got paid to screw you over and violate the contract.


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## cousteau

Well, that too. I worked in a specialty unit for a while in my department and one of the brass told us to our faces, " I don't care what your contract says." Key word-"workED"


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## Deuce

I get 15 sick days a year. I donate 2 to the sick bank. These are days earned through collective bargaining agreements. Obviously, somewhere along the line, my Union traded off something worthwhile (raise) for more sick days. It's no ones damn business, how, how many and when, I use MY sick days. If they make you stay over to fill the shift, too bad, you're the junior guy; soon enough you'll be on the other end. If the car goes unfilled (like where I work), that's your Unions fault (so yours/mine basically) for not having minimum manning. I used to be the guy that only used 3-4 a year for many years... But like FF said, these fuckers (supes, employing entities and civilians) don't give a fuck about us so big deal if we're not out there for em. I'm authorized to take 13. I don't normally come close to that, but if I want to use them, fuck it, I'll use MY sick days. You guys listen to the Kool-Aid drinkers long enough and you'll lose your days and/or how and when you can use what pittance you do get...


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## pahapoika

4-5 random bang-in's a year should keep you off the radar.

( provided your not on somebody's radar already )


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## Guest

If you guys need any tips on how to use sick days, shoot me a PM, I work with some PRO'S. hahahaha


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## LGriffin

Use was frowned upon at my department.
If someone called in, it usually screwed someone else so I worked sick for years until the day I worked a double with the flu, got pretty sick and management tried shoving it up my ass. After that, I used my sick time, every time.


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## lofu

Obie, already touched upon this and said it far more eloquently than I could but in our profession the public as well as our coworkers are expecting us to be as close to 100% as we can be. If my partner's head isn't in the game for whatever reason, id rather he use a sick day and get someone on overtime to work than have him "suck it up" and possibly make a mistake that could very well cost someone their life.

LA, you mentioned that you guys use vaca and comp days for mental health days. Can they deny you the day if you are "going under?" Where I work, you can only get a vaca or comp day if it doesn't require hiring OT. In that case, a sick day is the only option if you can't come in because you are not 100%.

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## Guest

lofu said:


> Obie, already touched upon this and said it far more eloquently than I could but in our profession the public as well as our coworkers are expecting us to be as close to 100% as we can be. If my partner's head isn't in the game for whatever reason, id rather he use a sick day and get someone on overtime to work than have him "suck it up" and possibly make a mistake that could very well cost someone their life.
> 
> LA, you mentioned that you guys use vaca and comp days for mental health days. Can they deny you the day if you are "going under?" Where I work, you can only get a vaca or comp day if it doesn't require hiring OT. In that case, a sick day is the only option if you can't come in because you are not 100%.


After my father died, I took bereavement leave, but I still didn't feel up to coming to work for my next scheduled shift after bereavement leave was done. I called for a vacation night (I had plenty of vacation days) and was denied because it would have resulted in OT hiring. Without a moment's hesitation, I said "Well, put me out sick then", to which the desk sergeant replied "Yup, that's all you can do, I hope you feel better".

BTW lofu, I decided to become the test case for the (illegal) policy of including the nature of illness on physician sick notes, which violates HIPPA. Remind me next time I see you, and I'll fill you in.


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## CrackPot

Small town not civil service so lots of flexibility. Also a disclaimer as I was on the "other" side of the table for this. We negotiated a change from sick/vacation time with separate accruals and maximum retention to a single PTO or paid time off. One accrual rate, one cap. No distinction for sick vs vacation. Yes, for vacation you plan ahead and get permission, but if you call in "sick" the morning of it is still the same record wise.

Why? Across the town, not just police, you always have some number of people who see sick days as entitlement and will make sure they use them every year. Others with better work ethics use them if/when they need them. This way the field was balanced. You get so many days off. If you are healthy it's vacation time and have fun. If you are sickly, well spend it in bed. 

In the end it works better. Less gaming. Less stigma. More predictability on yearly number of shifts to be covered.

It can still be abused by those that won't plan ahead and call in sick for vacation, but they tend to get appropriate peer correction over time.


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## LA Copper

lofu said:


> LA, you mentioned that you guys use vaca and comp days for mental health days. Can they deny you the day if you are "going under?" Where I work, you can only get a vaca or comp day if it doesn't require hiring OT. In that case, a sick day is the only option if you can't come in because you are not 100%.


Yes, we can (although it doesn't mean we will) be denied a VC or comp day due to minimum deployment needs not being met, especially if it's a weekend and violent crime has been soaring. However, it's also about taking care of our employees. If a situation arises as Delta referenced, then we would "take the hit" and take care of the employee. In the 23 years I've been on the job here in Los Angeles, I've lost a number of family members and have had to fly back east to be with my family. The department has taken care of me each and every time. Taking care of each other is just as important as taking care of the citizens we all swore an oath to. Public service is what we do but we take care of each other too.


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## trueblue

LA Copper said:


> Yes, we can (although it doesn't mean we will) be denied a VC or comp day due to minimum deployment needs not being met, especially if it's a weekend and violent crime has been soaring. However, it's also about taking care of our employees. If a situation arises as Delta referenced, then we would "take the hit" and take care of the employee. In the 23 years I've been on the job here in Los Angeles, I've lost a number of family members and have had to fly back east to be with my family. The department has taken care of me each and every time. Taking care of each other is just as important as taking care of the citizens we all swore an oath to. Public service is what we do but we take care of each other too.


LA, with all due respect....back here many of the departments decide on the command level who "gets taken care of and who doesn't" I have 240 sick days because I am NOT on the "good boy list". If I break my leg skiing or fall off a ladder and break two ribs, I don't want any of my co-workers feeling as if they need to cover for me. As far as giving a reason when I call in sick I use the standard "family illness" and if and when the department wants a doctors note I'll tell them I'm not revealing ANYTHING about my wife's on going and painful medical history (HIPPA). Go ahead and suspend me...I could use the days off. An older cop recently said to me concerning another issue, "it has been the department that has failed me many times....my family never has" That says it all.


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## 263FPD

I took 12 weeks FMLA when my first kid was born and 10 weeks with second. I had seven years on by the time I took the first round and up until then I took no sick days at all. 

I since took may be five days total. I don't misuse them. 

We have turned down laterals for excessive sick time use. If you're sick you're sick. But when you bang every weekend, we don't want you. Hell, I don't want a coworker who will cuse me to get forced potentially every weekend.


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## LA Copper

trueblue said:


> LA, with all due respect....back here many of the departments decide on the command level who "gets taken care of and who doesn't" I have 240 sick days because I am NOT on the "good boy list". If I break my leg skiing or fall off a ladder and break two ribs, I don't want any of my co-workers feeling as if they need to cover for me. As far as giving a reason when I call in sick I use the standard "family illness" and if and when the department wants a doctors note I'll tell them I'm not revealing ANYTHING about my wife's on going and painful medical history (HIPPA). Go ahead and suspend me...I could use the days off. An older cop recently said to me concerning another issue, "it has been the department that has failed me many times....my family never has" That says it all.


I'm sorry to hear that some command staff back there doesn't doesn't take care of all of their officers and not just their buddies. The example Delta spoke of with the sergeant, that's the way it should be. That's the way it was done for me and that's the way I do it for my folks.

As for providing a reason you're calling in sick, as Delta mentioned, the department is not supposed to ask what's wrong with you. The only thing the department is entitled to know is if you're sickness is IOD related. Otherwise, it's none of their business. That's federal law; if they don't like it, tell 'em to check it out with a federal judge in court.

I'm also sorry to hear the department has failed your buddy, that's something that needs to be changed. Whether it be the union, an annonymous tip to the media, or a phone call to the city/town leaders; something needs to be done to fix that problem.


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## 7costanza

I used all of my sick days.


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## lofu

LA Copper said:


> . Whether it be the union, an annonymous tip to the media, or a phone call to the city/town leaders; something needs to be done to fix that problem.


The union might be the only option there. The media would love to do a story on sick time use but I can guarantee it would be positive for the officer.

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## Guest

trueblue said:


> An older cop recently said to me concerning another issue, "it has been the department that has failed me many times....my family never has" That says it all.


I believe that sums it up quite nicely.


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## Deuce

trueblue said:


> An older cop recently said to me concerning another issue, "_it has been the department that has failed me many times....my family never has_" That says it all.


This....


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## LA Copper

trueblue said:


> An older cop recently said to me concerning another issue, "it has been the department that has failed me many times....my family never has" That says it all.


If that's true, then I'm glad I joined the department I did. With rare exceptions, it's always been about taking care of each other where I work. After all, we're in a "public service" profession - if we don't take care of each other first, how can we be expected to take care of others second?

Unless you're a real screw up, our supervisors are pretty supportive of their people. The chief uses the term, "The LAPD Family" quite often and backs that with his actions regularly. He also tasks his subordinates with doing the same thing. I hope one day that philosophy will make its way back there to your command staffs. Taking care of each other should be our number one goal.

Your unions are pretty strong back there; hopefully they will get involved and change that lack of caring by the bosses.


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## Deuce

LA Copper said:


> The chief uses the term, "The LAPD Family"


Odd, all the admin I know say "take care of yourself" and "it's all about the money"...


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## trueblue

LA Copper said:


> If that's true, then I'm glad I joined the department I did. With rare exceptions, it's always been about taking care of each other where I work. After all, we're in a "public service" profession - if we don't take care of each other first, how can we be expected to take care of others second?
> 
> Unless you're a real screw up, our supervisors are pretty supportive of their people. The chief uses the term, "The LAPD Family" quite often and backs that with his actions regularly. He also tasks his subordinates with doing the same thing. I hope one day that philosophy will make its way back there to your command staffs. Taking care of each other should be our number one goal.
> 
> Your unions are pretty strong back there; hopefully they will get involved and change that lack of caring by the bosses.


My hats off to you're supervisors and Chief who sound totally supportive. Yes we are in the public service profession and that is not lost on myself and most if not all the members of MC. Taking care of each other here in Mass is done mostly by the rank and file. I've seen it hundreds of times. You wrote that "unless you are a screw up, our supervisors are pretty suportive of their people" Here is where many of our problems begin in Mass. A "screw up" can be a cop who may point out flaws in department policies, stopped and arrested a friend of the Chief, or is the victim of a supervisor who is pissed off because he didn't get an invite to the cops pool party. So it is very subjective as to who "they" might support in their time of need.
As far as the union being able to get involved and change that lack of caring by the bosses. I have been involved in my union for years and as strong as we are I doubt we could ever make someone more caring by taking some sort of union action.
In the end LA I enjoy my job but I understand there is a way cops should be treated by their bosses...I just work on a dept. that doesn't always measure up. That's life.


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## HiredGoon

Sick time has many variables, and to get a true picture, one would have to look at the differences between agencies and assignments as well.

If an officer works in a smaller municipality that depends on a volunteer ambulance squad, and is required to go to every single medical call as the first responder, I would think they might run a greater/more frequent risk of exposure to all manner of creeping crud (at least the microbial variety) than a guy that might work primarily outside in a traffic division, in a large city that just has Fire/EMS handle medicals. 

Also, one might have to look at the amount an officer works. While 3 days a year might be normal and reasonable for the average 9-5'er citizen working a 40 hour work week, if you've got an officer putting in an average of 60-80 hr work weeks throughout the year...maybe by choice, or maybe by chance due to his specialty assignment area that requires it (call outs, investigations, etc)...then I would think it would be reasonable to see that number increase accordingly. Likewise, the assigned shift worked needs to be granted some merit in the equation...the science is there, and overnights or split shifts have been shown to have a negative impact on the body/immune system/digestive system/etc, in varying degrees, in even the hardiest of us. 

Some agencies consider sick days as each calendar day that you're out. Some only consider "out sick" a single unit, where you might be able to be out 2 or 3 days, without a doc's note, and not have each day counted against you. 

There's probably several other factors that are agency specific, that could be explored...obviously, these are the questions that a background investigator or the interview panel of a prospective employee should be asking, and the interviewee be prepared to answer.

I've worked sick numerous times, and have occasionally put myself into a jam doing so....getting held over for the next shift when you're just praying to make it through your first regularly scheduled one is no fun. Or, eventually working through it so much, to the point you end up having to bang out two or three days in a row, since you've ignored it too long and haven't allowed the body to repair itself. The occasional pre-emptive strike of one day, to address the early stages, isn't a problem if you're honest and know you're genuinely of diminished capacity.

My average sick time before my kid came along was maybe 3 times a year. He's at least doubled that for me annually, since. The wife stays at home with him, so if she goes down in a bad way, I often have to stay home. Now that he's in preschool, I swear he brings home all sorts of crap. As I've said to friends, if a widespread biological threat ever breaks out across the country, I'm certain they'll trace it back to a preschool or kindergarten.

Last time I called out sick, I just told the dispatcher to feel free to send a cruiser over to collect a sample...and would they like that in the form of swab, vial, or by the bucket full? 
That seemed to eliminate any doubt. :teeth_smile:


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## Guest

LA Copper said:


> The chief uses the term, "The LAPD Family" quite often and backs that with his actions regularly.


Many police departments around here are like families.....dysfunctional families, often with the management equivalent of an abusive father in charge.

I'll try to explain it as I see it; this is certainly not true for everyone, but I know that people reading this will either laugh or nod their head in agreement, because it's so common.

Because promotion is based almost solely on the written exam score, many people have pseudo-injuries (always soft-tissue injuries which are impossbile to disprove) or get into specialty positions (politically or by ass-kissing), then spend their entire 8-hour shifts studying for the promotion exam, while the "injured" people study at home. When they get promoted, their self-image gets ridiculously inflated, and especially at the higher ranks, they develop a disdain/hatred for the people in patrol, since we do the job they managed to avoid and/or hide from for so long, and we know the truth about their "police" careers.

For example, everyone on the command staff knew that our former chief was dangerously unstable, but they backed him to the hilt on every crazy and bizarre decision he made, because they were directed at the proletariat (patrol), while they consider the Gold Badge Posse to be the Bourgeoisie. There was a lot of the "How dare they" attitude on display when the patrol officers' union fought back publicly, as if we should never question any decision by someone with a gold badge who was "smart" (more like clever/sneaky) enough to score well on the promotion exam.

After the whacky chief was in the rear-view mirror, several high-ranking people came to me and actually thanked me for helping to get rid of him. I asked them why they didn't work with us to get rid of him even sooner, and just got sheepish looks. I said "You just couldn't bring yourself to help a patrol officer, could you?" More sheepish looks.

And for full disclosure, I have no desire to be a supervisor, and have never taken a promotion exam.


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## Guest

Delta, that is hitting the nail on the head. 

Sent from my ADR6300


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## 263FPD

Delta, right on point as usual. Management mostly blows.


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## CJIS

I had an operation Sat and I don't expect to be back to work at the earliest Monday. I think if the Sick tome can be justified then there should be no problem.


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## jmac

With two seriously ill family members I'm glad I stock piled my time.


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## Johnny Law

I have to shake my head in silent amazement at the guys who use all their legit time off (vacation, comp. and personal) and start to piss away their sick bank to get additional time off. You know the ones, they all have excuses. I may use one or two of "those" days in addition to the ones I use when I am sick, but these guys started the same time as me and I literally have triple the time banked than them. As has been said, it is your time and you should use it, but God forbid they get an extended illness and it isn't work related. Then what? They are fucked because they frittered their time away over the years.


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## LA Copper

You guys all make good points among your own departments. I hope it gets better for you and that one day the cycle changes and things improve. Maybe some of you could promote and help make those changes. 

My department has its idiots in staff positions too but thankfully they're the exception and not the rule. I'm thankful for that.


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## firefighter39

Johnny Law said:


> I have to shake my head in silent amazement at the guys who use all their legit time off (vacation, comp. and personal) and start to piss away their sick bank to get additional time off. You know the ones, they all have excuses. I may use one or two of "those" days in addition to the ones I use when I am sick, but these guys started the same time as me and I literally have triple the time banked than them. As has been said, it is your time and you should use it, but God forbid they get an extended illness and it isn't work related. Then what? They are fucked because they frittered their time away over the years.


I have 25+ years on the FD, our town does not buy back sick time from any town employee. My advise to the new town employees is, save your sick time for the first 10-15 years, then if you have a prolonged illness your all set. I bang out every chance I get - I only have about 5 years 'til 80% and I'll be damned if I turn back any unused time. My goal (which I am close to), is to leave with ZERO days left on the book since the town won't buy anything back


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## Johnny Law

firefighter39 said:


> I have 25+ years on the FD, our town does not buy back sick time from any town employee. My advise to the new town employees is, save your sick time for the first 10-15 years, then if you have a prolonged illness your all set. I bang out every chance I get - I only have about 5 years 'til 80% and I'll be damned if I turn back any unused time. My goal (which I am close to), is to leave with ZERO days left on the book since the town won't buy anything back


I agree with you on that. One of the decisions I'll have to make in 12 years is....have a 33% buy back or use 100%? Pretty easy decision.


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## 7costanza

That's a joke...33% buyback..its your time YOU earned it through contract negotions it should.be 100% buyback.


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## Johnny Law

7costanza said:


> That's a joke...33% buyback..its your time YOU earned it through contract negotions it should.be 100% buyback.


Again, I agree, but it could be worse, I could get nothing like FF39.


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## mpd61

After a couple boughts with diverticulitis and a cardiac cath in the past couple years, I'm proud to still have over 100+ hours sick time...


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## sdb29

My place is similar. If you've got over 72 sick days accumulated you get s fraction( I think 25%) of the amount over 72. Anything under 72 you lose. I had an off duty car accident in 2008 and burned through 5 months of sick time, so I'm not hitting the 72 threshold between now and April, when I can retire. Maybe I'll stay a year extra to try and hit 72 days. 


Did I just write that? Can somebody come by and Section me please?


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## FAPD

mpd61 said:


> After a couple boughts with *diverticulitis* and a *cardiac cath *in the past couple years, I'm proud to still have over 100+ hours sick time...


Hey Woody! You are a rare person, an asshole witha heart! LOL!!!!!!!!!!


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## Guest

mtc said:


> I've had a few major surgeries, and looking at my Eagle's toilet paper I still have 377 hours of sick time.


I'm lucky that I've been *relatively* healthy except for LOD injuries, so I have about 100 days (800 hours) of sick time on the books. Hard to believe a certain someone once tried to suspend me for using excessive time.


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## j809

CrackPot said:


> Small town not civil service so lots of flexibility. Also a disclaimer as I was on the "other" side of the table for this. We negotiated a change from sick/vacation time with separate accruals and maximum retention to a single PTO or paid time off. One accrual rate, one cap. No distinction for sick vs vacation. Yes, for vacation you plan ahead and get permission, but if you call in "sick" the morning of it is still the same record wise.
> 
> Why? Across the town, not just police, you always have some number of people who see sick days as entitlement and will make sure they use them every year. Others with better work ethics use them if/when they need them. This way the field was balanced. You get so many days off. If you are healthy it's vacation time and have fun. If you are sickly, well spend it in bed.
> 
> In the end it works better. Less gaming. Less stigma. More predictability on yearly number of shifts to be covered.
> 
> It can still be abused by those that won't plan ahead and call in sick for vacation, but they tend to get appropriate peer correction over time.


Interesting concept. Unfortunately our town decided that everyone gets the PTO, our Chief, dispatchers but NOT US.


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## Sentinel

I think sick time usage is relative to what an Officer does for work at their respective PD. Take for instance a large municipal department located in Central Mass., the Officers assigned to uniform positions (patrol, lock-up) average far more sick time usage than the privileged few who work plain clothes assignments. It is not uncommon to see sick usage increase tenfold after an Officer transfers back into uniform work from a plain clothes assignment (rarely for a performance or merit reason, and almost always for political or alcohol usage related).

For some baffling reason (sarcasm intended) these Officers used none, or at best one or two sick days a year while in their accountability free plain clothes unit, and miraculously see their sick time usage explode into the double digits a year after reassignment. These Officers usually have in excess of 100+ sick days banked, because they never had to use them in their units. Once held accountable for their attendance, they almost universally develop a mysterious recurring illness that debilitates them on an almost predictable bi weekly basis. I'm sure there is an explanation for this phenomenon.

For the base born proletarian assigned to Patrol work, usage of a sick day can be advantageous to the Officer and their parent agency. Mention has been made to "mental wellness" sick days, and though a term used in jest there is an underlying truth to the term. An Officer may use a sick day not because he/she is physically ill, but due to a realization that going to work carrying a gun while in that agitated of a mood could potentially expose the Office and PD to a large cash settlement down the road after lengthy court procedures and depositions. Simply put, using a sick day can, at times, be the single most responsible decision the Officer can make on a given day.

Isn't situational ethics refreshing!?!

As to usage of sick time amongst LEO's as opposed to the private sector? I find the fascination with comparing LEO work with the "private sector" baffling. You cannot make the comparison of one aspect of the job to the private sector in a vacuum. As mentioned previously, there was a conscious decision at some point to negotiate pay and or benefits for sick time. This is true at almost every department, which would lead one to conclude that higher sick time usage is almost universal amongst LEO professionals.

Kudos to those Officers who pride themselves on their impressive attendance record. Truly they are worthy of our admiration, provided that they are the lions of our profession roaming the plains ensuring the survival and protection of the herd, and not the fat, bloated sheep who have mastered the multiple choice tests, or the ability to surrender dignity and integrity for patronage and privilege.

I should probably bang in sick tomorrow...


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## cousteau

The patrolman is face to face with more people with more illnesses and diseases than anyone. *You are going to get sick*. I don't care if its a stuffy head, sneezing fits, flu, a cold, a shitty night's sleep, etc., it affects your performance in a life and death job. (not being dramatic) Our sleep schedules suck, along with stressors of the job. * You are going to get sick. * Now if you have a specialty job, you can take off whatever day you want, change your hours, swap days, yada yada yada. You deal with far fewer people on a daily basis. Not only will this statistically keep you less sick, you also can avoid getting forced overtime on the last half, which lets you go home to a good night's sleep which will keep you a little more on the well side. Don't forget this helps in the accumulation of days not used you can later cash in. *I am going to get sick*. If you work in an office and not on the street, or you have no face to face dealing with the "people of the street" boy are you lucky. Really, you shouldn't get sick unless someone in your family brings it home. That's a good health benefit. I believe healthy , well rested people_ should_ make good decisions, and if not, than* maybe they are sick*. 
So, in support of doing a job to the best of your ability, when your decision making skills and reflexes keep you alive, take your sick time.


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## SgtAndySipowicz

LA Copper said:


> eight times in two years at a police job to me is a *bit too excessive*, not counting some significant medical reason.


Not disagreeing with you, but just wanted to mention that you guys work a 3 on, *4 off* (12 hour shift) schedule (is this correct?). And I think you told me some work a 4 on, *3 off* (10 hour shift). With this type of schedule, adding the fact that you live in the *best climate* our country has to offer, an Officer gets some *time to de-stress* if they have had a tough day on the job etc. Many of us get addicted to *detail* money, something you folks don't have. During the summer it's quite common for us to work everyday (because of details). I think many of us "Mass Cops" get burned out and then need to bang out (the many hours effect your body/health etc).......I would love to switch over to a 3/12 schedule.....4 days off must be great, especially in a climate like LA. I love the outdoors.

It sounds like you still enjoy going to work after 23 years, which is great! I know where I work it is easy to get disgruntled. The *politics are unbelievable*. We have a "seniority" based system for shifts picks, not a "merit based" system. You could be an excellent Cop and be assigned to booking, while a guy who wants to do "nothing" bids on a busy car (*seniority is king* where I work). Many make the argument that performance is "subjective", but come on we all know who the slackers are, they stick out like a sore thumb.........I guess what I am saying is that it appears the way the LAPD does things is about 180 degrees different than back here, at least where I work. I think politics, way assignments are given out, lack of a 3/12 schedule etc etc leads to more sick time usage back east.....


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## Kilvinsky

I very, I mean VERY RARELY call in sick. I feel like a sucker. I've hit the max time and, well, picture a bucket that has reached it's capacity for water and yet, water is still dripping in. It has no where to go and it's not like the bucket can accept more so, with each drop, some spills out. I'm an IDIOT!

I cannot EVER critisize anyone who uses it as it comes in, but with that said,* I'M* all set. I'm going NO WHERE. I could blow through 20 days and who can say BOO? I've earned it and as long as I can somewhat justify it, I'm GOLDEN.

_*BUT*_ If you're looking to go somewhere, each sick day is looked at through a microscope. Be careful AND be truthful and you should be fine. A guy I used to work with was denied a job because of sick time use (and a few other things). He won out and did very well in the long run, but why run the risk?


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## LA Copper

SgtAndySipowicz said:


> Not disagreeing with you, but just wanted to mention that you guys work a 3 on, *4 off* (12 hour shift) schedule (is this correct?). And I think you told me some work a 4 on, *3 off* (10 hour shift). With this type of schedule, adding the fact that you live in the *best climate* our country has to offer, an Officer gets some *time to de-stress* if they have had a tough day on the job etc. Many of us get addicted to *detail* money, something you folks don't have. During the summer it's quite common for us to work everyday (because of details). I think many of us "Mass Cops" get burned out and then need to bang out (the many hours effect your body/health etc).......I would love to switch over to a 3/12 schedule.....4 days off must be great, especially in a climate like LA. I love the outdoors.
> 
> It sounds like you still enjoy going to work after 23 years, which is great! I know where I work it is easy to get disgruntled. The *politics are unbelievable*. We have a "seniority" based system for shifts picks, not a "merit based" system. You could be an excellent Cop and be assigned to booking, while a guy who wants to do "nothing" bids on a busy car (*seniority is king* where I work). Many make the argument that performance is "subjective", but come on we all know who the slackers are, they stick out like a sore thumb.........I guess what I am saying is that it appears the way the LAPD does things is about 180 degrees different than back here, at least where I work. I think politics, way assignments are given out, lack of a 3/12 schedule etc etc leads to more sick time usage back east.....


Andy,

You're right, we do work a compressed work schedule, which would probably be great for you guys when it comes to working details. However, I did work 8 hour days for the first 14 years of my career so I can relate to the 5-day work week like you guys have.

You're right, the climate is great out here, which also means we have "year round crime." It really doesn't slow down for us like it does for you guys during the cold Winter months. While you guys are dealing with the snow and cold temps (which I don't miss!), we're still dealing with the drive by shootings, the rapes, robberies, domestics, overdoses, foot and vehicle pursuits, etc. The Part I crime numbers really don't go down during this time for us so I guess we each have something to deal with, which in a sense makes it equal as far as stresses are concerned.

You're also right, we don't do details out here. However, we do go to court quite a bit because of the high volume of arrests and citations that we do. I guess that would be our equivelant to your details, although I'm glad I don't have to rely on that. Having been a supervisor for almost 12 years now, I haven't had too much court, which is fine with me.

As for "picking shifts," we don't do it anywhere near the same way you guys do, thank goodness. We can switch shifts (we call them watches) every four months if we want to. And if we are on a watch, we can't get bumped until six months. That way no one is "stuck" on a watch they don't want to be on for any longer than four months. Seniority doesn't come into play here, which makes it fair for everyone.

We also get to pick our own days off instead of being told what days off we're gonna have like you guys with the 4 and 2... but that's another story.

If politics still plays a big role in how things are done on your departments, and coupled with Delta's post to the "Noobs" in another thread, then I'm really glad I got on the job where I did and not back there. I feel for you guys! I wish I could come back there and help "fix" it for you. Sounds like some department command staffs need to join the 21st century. "This isn't your father's police department." ....... or is it?


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## SgtAndySipowicz

LA Copper said:


> Andy,
> You're right, we do work a compressed work schedule, which would probably be great for you guys when it comes to working details. However, I did work 8 hour days for the first 14 years of my career so I can relate to the 5-day work week like you guys have.
> You're right, the climate is great out here, which also means we have "year round crime." It really doesn't slow down for us like it does for you guys during the cold Winter months. While you guys are dealing with the snow and cold temps (which I don't miss!), we're still dealing with the drive by shootings, the rapes, robberies, domestics, overdoses, foot and vehicle pursuits, etc. The Part I crime numbers really don't go down during this time for us so I guess we each have something to deal with, which in a sense makes it equal as far as stresses are concerned.
> You're also right, we don't do details out here. However, we do go to court quite a bit because of the high volume of arrests and citations that we do. I guess that would be our equivelant to your details, although I'm glad I don't have to rely on that. Having been a supervisor for almost 12 years now, I haven't had too much court, which is fine with me.
> As for "picking shifts," we don't do it anywhere near the same way you guys do, thank goodness. We can switch shifts (we call them watches) every four months if we want to. And if we are on a watch, we can't get bumped until six months. That way no one is "stuck" on a watch they don't want to be on for any longer than four months. *Seniority* doesn't come into play here, which makes it fair for everyone.
> We also get to pick our own days off instead of being told what days off we're gonna have like you guys with the 4 and 2... but that's another story.
> If *politics* still plays a big role in how things are done on your departments, and coupled with Delta's post to the "Noobs" in another thread, then I'm really glad I got on the job where I did and not back there. I feel for you guys! I wish I could come back there and help *"fix"* it for you. Sounds like some department command staffs need to join the 21st century. "This isn't your father's police department." ....... or is it?


*SENIORITY*: is GOD where I am employed. Those who have it praise it. Those who don't, hate it. If the dept doesn't hire for years a "low guy" is stuck with shit assignments for years. It doesn't matter if you are an excellent, average or poor Cop. With seniority based assignments there is no need to get assignments based on merit. Many Officers where I work have seniority and still do an excellent job (DELTA784 comes to mind, he knows his shit and is street smart). Others take a good assignment and brag (literally, I've heard them) on how little they try to do. I don't get that mentality......

*POLITICS*: we have a system where the Mayor has final say on new hires. The dept makes recommendations and then it's up to the Mayor. Our Mayor seems to be a nice guy, but what are his qualifications in hiring Cops? Before being Mayor he worked in the Parks dept. So a guy from the Parks dept choses who gets hired as a Cop! In recent years my dept has had numerous "lateral transfers". I can't blame guys for wanting to get on my job, it pays very well. I do think the lateral transfer powers a MA Mayor has is too much. Don't we have a civil service test system that is supposed to be fair? But then you have a lateral transfer system that bypasses the fair system? I don't even like the way we hire in MA, but if you have a supposed "fair" system in place, why is the lateral system allowed? Lateral hires are almost (if not always) always people that are "connected". Once you are hired you realize there are 2 groups where I work. Those who are connected (whether it be to the Mayor, Chief, Captain etc) and those who have no strong connections. A person who is "connected" is much more likely to get (for example) a drug unit position than someone who isn't. I am constantly hearing how someone got something after having this city councilor call this person, or this congressman called so and so. Politics should not be a part of what we do, but they are big time where I work.......

*FIXING THINGS*: I would love to see (for example) a squared away LAPD Lieutenant/Captain etc come to my dept as a new Chief. It will never happen. Not a chance in hell. Change has to come from the top, but when no one at the top is willing to change anything, nothing will change. You can just hope that at some point someone from within will get rank and then change things. This is highly unlikely but of course it's possible. Who knows if it will ever happen. Don't get me wrong, I am grateful for having my well paying job. The more seniority you get the more secure you are as far as layoffs etc. It can be an issue too as it becomes much more riskier to leave for a better dept out of state, because when you go somewhere new you are "new" and on probation again etc. A bird in the hand is better than 2 in the bush.............


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## LA Copper

Andy,
It sounds like your department, and probably many others back there, are still operating back in the 50s/60s. You're right, it's time for the command staffs to come out of the "dark ages" and start revising themselves. My department had many similar issues,though not exactly, to yours. However, like tactics, we learned by our mistakes and learned to do it better. We're not perfect but we are trying.


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## SgtAndySipowicz

LA Copper said:


> Andy,
> It sounds like your department, and probably many others back there, are still operating back in the 50s/60s. You're right, it's time for the command staffs to come out of the "dark ages" and start revising themselves. My department had many similar issues,though not exactly, to yours. However, like tactics, we learned by our mistakes and learned to do it better. We're not perfect but we are trying.


We have made progress in some areas. Examples: shotguns in "some" cruisers. Soon we are getting a bunch certified to carry rifles. I like our new SIG 45's. But...... we still go the *range* just once per year (handguns, shotguns, rifles). This basically leaves it up to the individual officer to appropriately train (more than a 5 hour course, once per year) themselves (most don't train on own in my opinion. I am one of them, definitely do not train enough.......). We used to do *simunitions* yearly, but that seems to have stopped (excellent training). I understand that many of these things come down to *$*, but there is always other things a dept could *cut out* [supervisor hired on as a detail checker (6 hours @ big bucks to check on adult professional police officers), $25,000 on an experimental narcotics testing machine (probably will be banned by courts), find other ways (make parade organizers pay) to fund OT for parades etc (I think, could be wrong, that the dept foots the bill). I'm sure there are other ways to save as well, meaning more money for say, quarterly firearms training etc].  I still cannot believe that a dept the size of mine doesn't have a *SWAT/SRT* team and a *BOMB SQUAD* (I believe the dept has sent numerous officers to "bomb school" in NM, but we don't have a bomb squad???). We have a bunch of VETS (and non-vets) that would be excellent members of a SWAT team (I know a young SGT that was a Green Beret & is very squared away. Have him run it......). You can make a very good ($) living at my job. But yes, in general we are pretty much operating like it is 1960/dark ages in my opinion. I am grateful to have the job, just hope someday it becomes a better place to work etc .......


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## LA Copper

Andy,

We need to get together again, next time I'm home. We can "shoot the bull" about this stuff in person.


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## lt.drebbin

I once had a family emergency and called my department to speak to a supervisor. I explained the situation and requested a personal day. The supervisor was hesitant to give it to me and told me he would see what he could do. I told him to forget the personal day I had gotten sick while speaking with him. He said no problem and put me out on a sick day. (My son was rushed to the hospital)

Lesson learned sometimes it is easier to just bang out than jumps through hoops and talk to clowns when you need the day off.


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## lt.drebbin

I once had a family emergency and called my department to speak to a supervisor. I explained the situation and requested a personal day. The supervisor was hesitant to give it to me and told me he would see what he could do. I told him to forget the personal day I had gotten sick while speaking with him. He said no problem and put me out on a sick day. (My son was rushed to the hospital)

Lesson learned sometimes it is easier to just bang out than jumps through hoops and talk to clowns when you need the day off.


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## firefighter39

http://bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1405874&format=comments#CommentsArea

Call out sick = your abusing the system
Don't call out sick = your abusing the system


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## cc3915

firefighter39 said:


> http://bostonherald.com/news/regional/view.bg?articleid=1405874&format=comments#CommentsArea
> 
> Call out sick = your abusing the system
> Don't call out sick = your abusing the system


Just "abuse the system" the best you can and get the fuck out ASAP. Believe me, life is good when it's all over.


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## 7costanza

Take all the time you need, and dont call me Shirley,.


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## lt.drebbin

Mtc. I agree with you. This happened years ago and at the time we didnt have family sick days


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## Sentinel

I love this public outrage at our benefits. And yet ask these bloated coach potato mall ninjas to take down a door or clear a building on a late night alarm call... yeah didn't think so. Stick to Call of Duty and leave the real work to the professionals.

They wouldn't do our job for 50 sick days a year. Go about this job hungry for thanks and you will die of starvation. An ungrateful public comes with the job, sad but true everywhere.


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