# LTC Question



## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

I am a new LTC Class A holder. 

As a recent graduate from a Boston area university, I have a question on the legal definition of Campus; I know I am restricted from carrying a concealed weapon on a school campus, but when a school campus is merged with public property, which supersedes the other?

If I walk down Commonwealth Avenue, public property, but widely considered part of the BU campus, am I in violation of the law? Or would I only violate the law were I to enter a University building/dormitory? 

If I enter a store affiliated with the University, am I in violation of the law?

The statue is painfully vague with "campus". Most schools have a well defined barrier, while schools like BU, MIT and Suffolk blend in with the surrounding city, which is public property.

Thanks for your help in advance!

Best


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

Commonwealth Avenue is a public way, so no problems there. As far as entering a school building, that's up to school policy, since it's private property.

With that being said;


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## 78thrifleman (Dec 18, 2005)

I'll add to this in order to broaden my knowledge... can an off duty police officer carry a concealed weapon on a campus "under the badge"?


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

The sidewalks along Comm Ave are a gray area. I know BUPD can make arrests and have police powers there, but whether they are considered "school grounds" I don't know. You may have to look at factors such as who has primary LEO authoity, who is responsible for maintainance, who does snow removal, etc.

As background, MGL 269/10j prevents all but LEO's from carrying in campus buildings on on school grounds without written authorization from the school. 


> (j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, "firearm" shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.


Note the latter half of the subsection also punishes any school officials who fail to report such violations.


> Any officer in charge of an elementary or secondary school, college or university or any faculty member or administrative officer of an elementary or secondary school, college or university failing to report violations of this paragraph shall be guilty of a misdemeanor and punished by a fine of not more than five hundred dollars.


General Laws: CHAPTER 269, Section 10)



78thrifleman said:


> I'll add to this in order to broaden my knowledge... can an off duty police officer carry a concealed weapon on a campus "under the badge"?


I would say the answer is yes. As an officer carrying as an LTC holder (i.e., not with a gun authorized by your chief) is more of a gray area.

I've researched this as my school's weapons policy is simply the statute itself, and I carry regularly.

My argument is that the statute refers to police officer as a status rather than the legal foundation for your firearms possession. While there's no case law on this statute, my reasoning for status as a police officer over your legal foundation for carrying is becuase of campus officers themselves--they have no legal right to carry on a badge. Armed campus PD's carry on duty under their LTC's. Why should I be any different? There's no on/off duty requirement in the statute.

Plus, I take the Red Line to school and have seen people I've arrested before in the same subway car. Try and tell me I can't carry.


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## flintlockglock (Jan 22, 2011)

That gray area is exactly what I am seeking a real answer too, it seems like I should be able to carry, so long as I don't enter the quads or the buildings.

Perhaps finding out who maintains the grounds would provide an answer? I.E university maintained areas are campus and state maintained areas are public?


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## Guest (Jan 22, 2011)

OfficerObie59 said:


> The sidewalks along Comm Ave are a gray area. I know BUPD can make arrests and have police powers there


Wouldn't that be under the "contiguous area" (sorry if I misspelled it) doctrine of the appelate court decision regarding SSPO powers?

I can't imagine that Boston University has bought Commonwelth Avenue, although I guess they could, considering their endowment.


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## 78thrifleman (Dec 18, 2005)

Delta784 said:


> Wouldn't that be under the "contiguous area" (sorry if I misspelled it) doctrine of the appelate court decision regarding SSPO powers?
> 
> I can't imagine that Boston University has bought Commonwelth Avenue, although I guess they could, considering their endowment.


What does penis size have to do with any of this?


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Delta784 said:


> Wouldn't that be under the "contiguous area" (sorry if I misspelled it) doctrine of the appelate court decision regarding SSPO powers?
> 
> I can't imagine that Boston University has bought Commonwelth Avenue, although I guess they could, considering their endowment.


I'm really not up on the specific law effecting campus PD/SSPO jurisdiction, but if that is the theory on why they have jurisdiction on "contiguous area", seems to me you're all set if you're on the street and don't enter the campus.

Kilv/USMC, any input?



flintlockglock said:


> That gray area is exactly what I am seeking a real answer too, it seems like I should be able to carry, so long as I don't enter the quads or the buildings.


Seems like that's the answer to me. Unfortunately, there's simply no case law out there defining the statute. Trust me, I reseached the shit out of this statute last fall before I started going to my new school.


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

Why even hang out on campus or property that abutts it if you aren't going to or from class or the library? If you are there during your classes and are carrying, then you are clearly in violation. I do not see an issue however if you simply go in to a retail establishment along Comm. Ave. But if you think you can circumvent laws bybtelling a campus or a local cop that you were merely walking around the area adjacent to campus and you happened to be armed, you just might be trying to screw with the wrong guys. Some one like me, will have you very quickl figured out. For instance, say I am the CPO that encounters you and for whatever reason the legality of you carrying your weapon comes in to play, how rough would it really be for me to see wha yor class schedule is assuming you are a BU student? If I were you, I would give this a lot of thought. As a holder of an LTC, you should really consider being very careful about carrying your gun where the law prohibits you from doing so. You may think that we as Police are anti 2nd ammendment, which is very far from the truth. Knowing how hard it is to obtain your CCW permit in this state, because I have been a gun owner long before I was a cop, I am simply trying to get you to be careful about holding on to it.


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## flintlockglock (Jan 22, 2011)

263FPD said:


> Why even hang out on campus or property that abutts it if you aren't going to or from class or the library? If you are there during your classes and are carrying, then you are clearly in violation. I do not see an issue however if you simply go in to a retail establishment along Comm. Ave. But if you think you can circumvent laws bybtelling a campus or a local cop that you were merely walking around the area adjacent to campus and you happened to be armed, you just might be trying to screw with the wrong guys. Some one like me, will have you very quickl figured out. For instance, say I am the CPO that encounters you and for whatever reason the legality of you carrying your weapon comes in to play, how rough would it really be for me to see wha yor class schedule is assuming you are a BU student? If I were you, I would give this a lot of thought. As a holder of an LTC, you should really consider being very careful about carrying your gun where the law prohibits you from doing so. You may think that we as Police are anti 2nd ammendment, which is very far from the truth. Knowing how hard it is to obtain your CCW permit in this state, because I have been a gun owner long before I was a cop, I am simply trying to get you to be careful about holding on to it.


I am no longer a student. I graduated in 2 years, which leaves me in the awkward position of leaving school whilst all my friends are in their Junior Year. We regularly have dinners in the Boston area, and thus my question is based on ambiguity in the law in the definition of "campus" in an Urban environment. I have no desire to carry my gun in an illegal area, it's more trouble for the cops and for me, and frankly neither of us need any more drama in our lives. Most police officers are supportive of the 2nd amendment,I never insinuated they weren't, this is about poor and unclear legislation, not the Uniforms dedication to my civil liberties. Thus it is not trying to screw with any one, rather exercise my legal right and social obligation in a responsible way.

That said, I am toting my Star 9mm around with me where ever I can.


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

flintlockglock said:


> I am no longer a student. I graduated in 2 years, which leaves me in the awkward position of leaving school whilst all my friends are in their Junior Year. We regularly have dinners in the Boston area, and thus my question is based on ambiguity in the law in the definition of "campus" in an Urban environment. I have no desire to carry my gun in an illegal area, it's more trouble for the cops and for me, and frankly neither of us need any more drama in our lives. Most police officers are supportive of the 2nd amendment,I never insinuated they weren't, this is about poor and unclear legislation, not the Uniforms dedication to my civil liberties. Thus it is not trying to screw with any one, rather exercise my legal right and social obligation in a responsible way.
> 
> That said, I am toting my Star 9mm around with me where ever I can.


I was reading this post, gaining all kinds of new respect for you, and then you just had to tell me you were carrying a Star. I didn't now weather I should laugh, cry, or throw up.:smoke:


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## flintlockglock (Jan 22, 2011)

Well I haven't broken in my Browning yet, the Star has been in the family since '48. :tounge_smile:


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

flintlockglock said:


> We regularly have dinners in the Boston area, and thus my question is based on ambiguity in the law in the definition of "campus" in an Urban environment.


Until the ambiguity is resolved via case law, I think we've reached the end of the line unless a campus PD officer on this board steps in and definitively can say a public sidewalk is tried and true campus property, not just an area where BUPD has enforcment power.

Seems to me this is a land issue, specifically defining where the boundaries are. Being that we've now narrowed it down to a simple question of who owns what, I don't know that any of us can help you further.

You know a great way to figure this out? Call BU and say you slipped and fell on ice in the sidewalk along Comm Ave. and inquire to whose insurance you need to bill. That's the way to find out who truly owns it... (only half kidding...)


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## flintlockglock (Jan 22, 2011)

Thanks for the try :shades_smile: Always appreciated. Time to call up some lawyers.


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