# Complex Law Enforcement Firearm Question! Attention Gun Nuts



## Guest (Jul 25, 2019)

Good Afternoon Everyone!
Question: 
Someone is a Law Enforcement Officer in MA and falls under the LEOSA Act, and can carry in all 50 states and has the appropriate identification.
That person only has an FID Card in Massachusetts, is it possible to have a handgun transferred to you privately? I know permits to purchase can be used to purchase a handgun with an FID as long as it is not taken out of the home. But under LEOSA you would be able to lawfully carry according to federal and state law. Does anyone know if recording the sale on the gun portal, it would reject you because one person has an FID and the other a LTC? 

If anyone could give feedback thanks! 
This is law enforcement related, hence why I am posting here rather than Northeast Shooters


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## MPD703 (Sep 25, 2004)

The short answer is that you need an LTC in MA. While you may be able to buy a gun without a LTC the problem in this situation is that the Mass regulations for LEOSA qualification require the separated officer to have a MA LTC in order to take the LEOSA qualification course. Without proof of qualification you cant carry under LEOSA.


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

1. Permits to purchase are no longer a "thing" in Massachusetts. FID is long guns ONLY for any reason. You cannot lawfully possess any handgun ANYWHERE including your domicile on an FID.
2. As stated above for LEOSA you have to have active or retired LEO CREDENTIALS. I have to ask how said person is a "qualified law enforcement" type for LEOSA, yet hasn't got an LTC? Kinda silly.......BTW is this person still on the job, or retired?


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2019)

MPD703 said:


> LEOSA qualification require the separated officer to have a MA LTC in order to take the LEOSA qualification course. Without proof of qualification you cant carry under LEOSA.


Thank you for your response, I forgot to mention the person would be an "active status LEO".


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## Guest (Jul 26, 2019)

mpd61 said:


> I have to ask how said person is a "qualified law enforcement" type for LEOSA, yet hasn't got an LTC? Kinda silly.......BTW is this person still on the job, or retired?


 Thank you for you input, I forgot to mention that the LEOSA would be "ACTIVE STATUS". My friend just moved into the state, where his laws did not require him to be licensed, but he only applied for the FID.


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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

i carried a sidearm everyday for years and never had a LTC. 
Living in Boston and having a pistol permit was not an option 

The DOC gave us paper permits to carry any issued department firearms. That was challenged after one of our transportation officers was pulled over in his P/V driving home.

Now anyone with a "take home" firearm has to have a valid LTC. Institution officers transporting inmates still carry on their badge. Mass. firearm laws are insane and that's the way our government likes it.


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## j809 (Jul 5, 2002)

mpd61 said:


> 1. Permits to purchase are no longer a "thing" in Massachusetts. FID is long guns ONLY for any reason. You cannot lawfully possess any handgun ANYWHERE including your domicile on an FID.
> 2. As stated above for LEOSA you have to have active or retired LEO CREDENTIALS. I have to ask how said person is a "qualified law enforcement" type for LEOSA, yet hasn't got an LTC? Kinda silly.......BTW is this person still on the job, or retired?


Maybe he lost his LtC for life for a guilty OUI and carries only under the badge ?

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## 38bigblock (Nov 22, 2015)

Bud, LEOSA is for carrying firearms. You need a Class A LTC to purchase high capacity firearms in MA. Don’t read into it. The system may allow it to pass, but then you can be jammed up. I wouldn’t play games in this state. You’ll do time. If he’s an ACTIVE LEO, Full-Time, no weird sidebar clauses.. then have him just apply for an LTC.

What your doing is looking for a loophole. The intent of the law is for cops to carry in other states. Not for people who don’t qualify for an LTC to get a firearm anyway.


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## pctony (Oct 2, 2019)

38bigblock said:


> Bud, LEOSA is for carrying firearms. You need a Class A LTC to purchase high capacity firearms in MA. Don't read into it. The system may allow it to pass, but then you can be jammed up. I wouldn't play games in this state. You'll do time. If he's an ACTIVE LEO, Full-Time, no weird sidebar clauses.. then have him just apply for an LTC.
> 
> What your doing is looking for a loophole. The intent of the law is for cops to carry in other states. Not for people who don't qualify for an LTC to get a firearm anyway.


From what I have read on numerous websites, including Mass.gov This is a federal law that supersedes all state and local laws. You do not require a LTC in any state in the US. This applies to active and retired law enforcement officers. The only restriction is the type of ammo carried when retired. You may also need to lower magazine capacity.
https://www.fop.net/legislative/issues/hr218/hr218faq.pdf


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## j809 (Jul 5, 2002)

mpd61 said:


> 1. Permits to purchase are no longer a "thing" in Massachusetts. FID is long guns ONLY for any reason. You cannot lawfully possess any handgun ANYWHERE including your domicile on an FID.
> 2. As stated above for LEOSA you have to have active or retired LEO CREDENTIALS. I have to ask how said person is a "qualified law enforcement" type for LEOSA, yet hasn't got an LTC? Kinda silly.......BTW is this person still on the job, or retired?


Maybe he has an OUI guilty conviction 

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## pctony (Oct 2, 2019)

j809 said:


> Maybe he has an OUI guilty conviction
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


They wrote it to very inclusive. The ability to arrest or apprehend, which is very broad. Even some states with prison officers have the ability to pursue and arrest to a limited degree. The intent is to provide enhanced public and officer safety. It also allows you to carry your own personal weapon and not the one provided when your off duty. It's a real education reading up on all of this. I told a friend of mine who has served for 30 years, she was not aware of it, as it offers multi state carry and you do not need a locally purchased LTC.


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## pctony (Oct 2, 2019)

More info as it was updated recently.
5 Things To Know About The LEOSA Reform Act | PoliceOne


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## MPD703 (Sep 25, 2004)

LEOSA exempts qualified active and retired LEO's from state requirements to have a LTC. It doesn't allow anyone to purchase a firearm or even ammunition. There are some weird situations that can happen when you mix the state and federal law. So a federal agent in MA could by a gun directly from a manufacturer, shipped to the agency, without going through a FFL or needing an LTC. So it is possible to be a MA resident and carry on LEOSA without an LTC but that will only last for 12 months. Last I checked the CMR on this in order to get your required LEOSA qualification you need, in MA to have a LTC. So, in the end, if you are going to live in this state and take advantage of LEOSA you need the LTC.


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## msw (Jul 19, 2004)

MPD703 said:


> ?...... Last I checked the CMR on this in order to get your required LEOSA qualification you need, in MA to have a LTC. So, in the end, if you are going to live in this state and take advantage of LEOSA you need the LTC.


What is a CMR? So if a LEOSA compliant and credentialed retired cop from another state moved to Massachusetts, could he not just "carry" on his LEOSA credentials, without getting a MA LTC? Where is it written in Massachusetts law that he would need to get an LTC? What if he moved to Boston? Would they even issue an LTC to a retired cop from another state moving into the city of Boston?


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## Bloodhound (May 20, 2010)

msw said:


> What is a CMR? So if a LEOSA compliant and credentialed retired cop from another state moved to Massachusetts, could he not just "carry" on his LEOSA credentials, without getting a MA LTC? Where is it written in Massachusetts law that he would need to get an LTC? What if he moved to Boston? Would they even issue an LTC to a retired cop from another state moving into the city of Boston?


Code of Massachusetts Regulations. 515 CMR 6.03 dictates the process that LEOSA instructors must follow.



> (5) Certified LEOSA Instructor Obligations. The LEOSA Instructor shall:
> (a) Require students to complete an application prescribed by the Colonel to be completed upon certification. The application, signed and dated by the student, shall be maintained by the instructor for a minimum of one year following expiration of any subsequently-obtained LEOSA Qualification Card. A copy of the application may also be given to the student.
> (b) Require, on the course date, the student to present a valid retired law enforcement officer identification card issued by the law enforcement agency from which the student retired, pursuant to 18 U.S.C. § 926C, indicating at a minimum that the officer is an otherwise qualified retired law enforcement officer.
> (c)* Require, on the course date, the student to present a valid license to carry issued pursuant to M.G.L. c. 140, § 131.*


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## USM C-2 (Oct 27, 2010)

Unless he goes back to his state of retirement and qualifies there every year, to their standards...


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## pctony (Oct 2, 2019)

msw said:


> What is a CMR? So if a LEOSA compliant and credentialed retired cop from another state moved to Massachusetts, could he not just "carry" on his LEOSA credentials, without getting a MA LTC? Where is it written in Massachusetts law that he would need to get an LTC? What if he moved to Boston? Would they even issue an LTC to a retired cop from another state moving into the city of Boston?


From all I've read and those links posted here as long as you retired in good standing, have a photo ID from your employer, and have up to date training than you should be fine. You may have to ensure the proper magazine capacity (10 max), and ensure your weapons are approved in mass.


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## pctony (Oct 2, 2019)

pctony said:


> From all I've read and those links posted here as long as you retired in good standing, have a photo ID from your employer, and have up to date training than you should be fine. You may have to ensure the proper magazine capacity (10 max), and ensure your weapons are approved in mass.


Mass Laws:
Massachusetts law about guns and other weapons
Specifics Regarding LEOSA in Mass.
https://www.mass.gov/files/document...25.237168376.1569964100-1729201430.1569964100


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## Joel98 (Mar 2, 2011)

mpd61 said:


> 1. Permits to purchase are no longer a "thing" in Massachusetts. FID is long guns ONLY for any reason. You cannot lawfully possess any handgun ANYWHERE including your domicile on an FID.
> 2. As stated above for LEOSA you have to have active or retired LEO CREDENTIALS. I have to ask how said person is a "qualified law enforcement" type for LEOSA, yet hasn't got an LTC? Kinda silly.......BTW is this person still on the job, or retired?


I know some active MA cops who don't have LTC's, there are depts that don't require it.


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## pctony (Oct 2, 2019)

Joel98 said:


> I know some active MA cops who don't have LTC's, there are depts that don't require it.


LEOSA states it's not necessary to have a LTC in any state, but it's best to check with the state you plan to move to or travel through. Mass issues ID cards as do other states for a retired LEO. You do have to ensure you carry a weapon and one with the approved capacity according to state law. 
The state/agency you retire from must provide an ID stating your retirement and status. Some states are not abiding by LEOSA, but it is a federal law. It has been revised twice. And is currently waiting on another for review.
LEOSA state by state: Why are retired police officers having problems? - Daigle Law Group
Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act - Wikipedia


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## MPD703 (Sep 25, 2004)

LEOSA exempts you from having to have an LTC in the state where you happen to be provided that meet the requirements of the act. There are several problems and this is where the confusion comes in. There is no requirement under the law that agencies issue retired ID cards. There have been a bunch of lawsuits and so far all of them have been decided that an agency is under no obligation to issue anything. Same thing with qualification. The standard is that you have to qualify with the same type of gun as you are carrying but there is no obligation on the part of an agency to provide that. So in MA, like in many other states, regulations were issued to set out the process to handle the qualifications. That is where, in MA, the get you. If you, as a MA resident who is otherwise LEOSA qualified, you have to go to a certified instructor to do a LEOSA qualification and need an LTC. Of course under MA law you have to have a LTC to by a handgun anyway. As far as magazine capacity it seems that retirees are covered under the exception in MA law when it comes to mags which hold over 10 rounds.


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## MPD703 (Sep 25, 2004)

It will be interesting to see what happens with the LEOSA reform bill that was filed this year. It is supposed to cut out a lot of the gun free zone stuff to allow LEOSA retirees to carry in those area.


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## pctony (Oct 2, 2019)

MPD703 said:


> LEOSA exempts you from having to have an LTC in the state where you happen to be provided that meet the requirements of the act. There are several problems and this is where the confusion comes in. There is no requirement under the law that agencies issue retired ID cards. There have been a bunch of lawsuits and so far all of them have been decided that an agency is under no obligation to issue anything. Same thing with qualification. The standard is that you have to qualify with the same type of gun as you are carrying but there is no obligation on the part of an agency to provide that. So in MA, like in many other states, regulations were issued to set out the process to handle the qualifications. That is where, in MA, the get you. If you, as a MA resident who is otherwise LEOSA qualified, you have to go to a certified instructor to do a LEOSA qualification and need an LTC. Of course under MA law you have to have a LTC to by a handgun anyway. As far as magazine capacity it seems that retirees are covered under the exception in MA law when it comes to mags which hold over 10 rounds.


I agree with everything stated with the exception of the LTC as LEOSA supersedes the state law to require a LTC, provided of course that state is not tied up in a legal issue with it. To date only Hawaii has raised an issue. NJ put up a fuss and lost in court. 
Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act - Wikipedia
All states are excluded, if you qualify under LEOSA. You do not need a LTC.


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## msw (Jul 19, 2004)

MPD703 said:


> It will be interesting to see what happens with the LEOSA reform bill that was filed this year. It is supposed to cut out a lot of the gun free zone stuff to allow LEOSA retirees to carry in those area.


With the Dems in control of the House, what is likely to happen with this LEOSA reform bill is........ nothing. Interestingly, this same - or similar - bill was proposed in the last Congress, when the Republicans controlled both the House and the Senate. And nothing was done with it then either. (Which was really unfortunate, because I'm pretty sure President Trump would have signed it.)


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## msw (Jul 19, 2004)

pctony said:


> From all I've read and those links posted here as long as you retired in good standing, have a photo ID from your employer, and have up to date training than you should be fine. You may have to ensure the proper magazine capacity (10 max), and ensure your weapons are approved in mass.


 I guess I am pretty lucky, as the Dept I retired from not only issues the appropriate ID, but allows its retirees to do the qualification shoot at the Dept range, free of charge, once a year. They even give us the ammo!

pctony, I know about the mag capacity issue, but could you expound upon your statement "ensure your weapons are approved in Massachusetts"? Is there some "list" that Massachusetts has, that I have to check before I travel to MA with a certain make/model of pistol? I understand there may be restrictions on what pistols you can BUY in MA, but if you already own it, and are just traveling to MA with it, is there some restriction on which makes and models of pistols you can "carry"?

And one other quick question for you smart folks while we're on this topic: Are Massachusetts retired LEOs exempt from the over 10 round mag capacity restriction? And if yes, what is the MGL section that explains this? I am wondering if the exemption is worded in such a way as it would apply to on-duty or retired LEOs from another state, who happened to be traveling to or in Massachusetts? I usually just carry my trusty old 8-shot S&W M3913 when I travel, to avoid the hassle of the "high-capacity mag ban" restrictions in many East Coast jurisdictions...... but I have often wondered about whether there is an exemption in the MGLs to the 10 rd mag restriction for out-of-state retired cops, because I do return to Massachusetts for visits a couple times a year.


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## pctony (Oct 2, 2019)

From what I've read LEOSA pertains to the gun and ammo only. The ATF ruled you have to abide by local stats laws regarding capacity. See article:
Federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act LEOSA | USCCA
Now this has more to do with retired, and out of state LEO's. In regard to mass, the magazine capacity limit is 10. This if course does not apply to a non retired Mass LEO.
Mass has a list of pistols and rifles that may be owned/carried. There is also a list of high capacity weapons that have been grandfathered in based on the pre-ban date of purchase. Sept. 1994.
Approved firearms rosters


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

pctony said:


> From what I've read LEOSA pertains to the gun and ammo only. The ATF ruled you have to abide by local stats laws regarding capacity. See article:
> Federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act LEOSA | USCCA
> Now this has more to do with retired, and out of state LEO's. In regard to mass, the magazine capacity limit is 10. This if course does not apply to a non retired Mass LEO.
> *Mass has a list of pistols and rifles that may be owned/carried.*  There is also a list of high capacity weapons that have been grandfathered in based on the pre-ban date of purchase. Sept. 1994.
> Approved firearms rosters


Actually that is a list of firearms that are "compliant" for sale, from Dealers. It does not restrict private sale of many firearms on the used/private sale market. In addition, there are no provisions regarding carry. The Beretta model 81 in .32 acp is NOT on any compliant list, yet I can carry one legally all day long on my LTC, with 12 round mags that were made in the 1970's. (pre-ban)
There is so much BS in these laws passed by fear, and knee-jerk reaction to anomalies in society. Isn't it great how Herr Healy decided to circumvent the rare display of wisdom by the legislature in the 2014 Crime Bill? Agenda-driven ignoramus makes AR's and AK's uber restricted, yet WE can all still buy M-14's and certain "Hebrew" IWI products that are arguably the same damn things!? LOL!!!

It's all to make the children safer...................................


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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

For the retired leosa ID they wanted retirement ID , Mass LTC and qualification from a certified instructor = good for one year 

It's all about the money baby ! The state wants their piece of the action. That's why they put them mob out of business 

They don't want any competition


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## Joe1231913 (Jun 5, 2007)

Jake5-0 said:


> Good Afternoon Everyone!
> Question:
> Someone is a Law Enforcement Officer in MA and falls under the LEOSA Act, and can carry in all 50 states and has the appropriate identification.
> That person only has an FID Card in Massachusetts, is it possible to have a handgun transferred to you privately? I know permits to purchase can be used to purchase a handgun with an FID as long as it is not taken out of the home. But under LEOSA you would be able to lawfully carry according to federal and state law. Does anyone know if recording the sale on the gun portal, it would reject you because one person has an FID and the other a LTC?
> ...


Aside from being a FT LEO, I own/operate an FFL. I am almost positive that the efa-10 portal would NOT allow the transfer to an FID holder. I do think the law would allow him to carry it, there are provisions in LEOSA (the federal version) that should cover him if he meets that definition.

While I am on the topic, any of you interested in gun purchases can find me at www.JCArms.com, I am very LEO friendly.


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

Joe1231913 said:


> While I am on the topic, any of you interested in gun purchases can find me at www.JCArms.com, I am very LEO friendly.


Shameless plug. you will fit in well here 
So lets say, totally hypothetical now, I wanted to get a LWRC would I have to wait a year and a half to get it?


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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

Yeah I clicked on the link


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## Joe1231913 (Jun 5, 2007)

RodneyFarva said:


> Shameless plug. you will fit in well here
> So lets say, totally hypothetical now, I wanted to get a LWRC would I have to wait a year and a half to get it?


Why would you have to wait a year and a half?


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## visible25 (Feb 7, 2012)

RodneyFarva said:


> Shameless plug. you will fit in well here
> So lets say, totally hypothetical now, I wanted to get a LWRC would I have to wait a year and a half to get it?


I ordered one a couple months back, without any issues. I did cancel my order as I ran into a family emergency and had to make a choice but it was scheduled for a 30-day ship


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