# Why do people hate Civil Service?



## DucatiGuy

I've been looking at MA and CT jobs, and it looks like every town has their own exam to take. Applying to 4 towns you would need to take 3 different exams (and pay for them). Besides essentially being limited to your town of residence, what are the other negatives?


----------



## Goose

An arbitrary test that does nothing to find the best candidate is huge.


----------



## DucatiGuy

Goose said:


> An arbitrary test that does nothing to find the best candidate is huge.


I agree. No exam would be perfect.

But jumping the civil service ship and making your own town exam doesn't sound that great.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

They're are a lot of positives to CS (like the appeals process, layoffs by seniority,etc) but I agree, hiring based on the list is ridiculous. Especially absolute preference for veterans. Every other state gives 2-5 points to vets, but mass for some reason moves all of them to the top. So you could have a great candidate with an academy, degree, and experience that scores a 98. But he is not hired because a guy in a non-combat position in the Army scored a 70. I respect service, but the system is broken.


----------



## Kojak

I think even without Civil Service you could still retain a lot of those great benefits through collective bargaining and the current labor laws. As far as new hires it is a joke, they really do make it tough for Police Depts to hire the best candidates and never mind the most physically fit. Civil Service at its inception had great intentions but just like anything else it has turned into a complete shit show.


----------



## Treehouse413

There's good and bad I totally agree but CS needs some fixing. The only thing that worries me about non CS is politics are huge and no appeal process . I'm a vet and went to the top but I don't agree with going to the top. Give us some points but I think a lot of good non vets get the short end of it.


----------



## HuskyH-2

woodyd said:


> With non-CS, you hire and promote the best people


That's a huge leap you just took. With non-CS they get to hire and promote who they want. You hope they're the best, but nepotism has free reign to run wild in non-CS municipalities.


----------



## pahapoika

I'll take CS warts and all any day over the "secret handshake" crowd.
And yes I've been bypassed for vets , but still have no problem moving them to the front of the line.


----------



## felony

Rogergoodwin said:


> They're are a lot of positives to CS (like the appeals process, layoffs by seniority,etc) but I agree, hiring based on the list is ridiculous. Especially absolute preference for veterans. Every other state gives 2-5 points to vets, but mass for some reason moves all of them to the top. So you could have a great candidate with an academy, degree, and experience that scores a 98. But he is not hired because a guy in a non-combat position in the Army scored a 70. I respect service, but the system is broken.


Most people on this site, dislike Civil Service because they are trying to get hired and are frustrated with the system. However, if you know how to work the system you can get hired. My feeling on CS, is that its better to have it than not. If you were wrongfully bypassed due to nepotism, etc; at least you have some recourse. Now towns are putting everything in their contract, in hopes that will work better than a CS appeal and they can arbitrate with MASSCOP. A lot of towns are getting rid of CS during contract negotiations time as a bargaining chip, for education incentive for new hires or full Quinn.

Its a slippery slope because we all know that when these towns start having secret squirl tests and no one gets hired or the only ones that do get hired are relatives etc. The bitching will explode on this forum. I know a few towns that aren't CS and some have a test, some don't. Some its simply word of mouth and if they like you, they might hire you PT. The best candidate doesn't necessarily get the job.

A good example of this is Milford PD, these guys want out of CS so bad, they are asking the town to vote it out! Not even used during contract negotiations times. The chief had some flub article published in the Milford Daily news about how it would be better for everyone. I know a few guys who worked there and I was told flat out, its because they want to hire who they want. The reason is that they will have 15 retirements in the next few years and they want to get their kids on while they can. How is that fair and equitable? How is that the best candidate?


----------



## Pvt. Cowboy

Some good points felony.

A system where your ability to be hired completely hinges on your test score is absurd. That's needed a change for a while. 

Not having CS, well, we all know the route that will take like you had mentioned. I witnessed it first hand during my testing years, like I'm sure many have seen. It is what it is... LE hiring had been troublesome in Mass for quite some time. 

I'm not sure it will ever change to a system that hires the best candidates


----------



## Treehouse413

Like I've posted before I work for a CS dept and I'm a vet. With that being said CT state I feel does a great job. They don't go with the top score and hire. They group a score range and interview from there . At least they did when I went through the process years ago.


----------



## 40thMPOC#309

CS aint perfect but if you have served our country, thank you and please go to the top of the list. Not a fan of the phony baloney "assessment centers" either...


----------



## felony

Pvt. Cowboy said:


> Some good points felony.
> 
> A system where your ability to be hired completely hinges on your test score is absurd. That's needed a change for a while.
> 
> Not having CS, well, we all know the route that will take like you had mentioned. I witnessed it first hand during my testing years, like I'm sure many have seen. It is what it is... LE hiring had been troublesome in Mass for quite some time.
> 
> I'm not sure it will ever change to a system that hires the best candidates


The Fire Test for CS, has incorporated the PAT into the test score. The CS Police exam should do the same. I feel that would weed out of the fat slugs taking up space.


----------



## pahapoika

The Fire had a "pre-physical" way back when when they did away with the age limit.
Think it was like an extra $75. Thought it might weed out the par-10 crowd, but they got a waiver on that too 

DOC got a bunch of wide bodies come through couple years ago. A very obviver sign testing has gone downhill !


----------



## Patr8726

felony said:


> My feeling on CS, is that its better to have it than not. If you were wrongfully bypassed due to nepotism, etc; at least you have some recourse.


I agree that it's important to have job protections that CS can provide, otherwise a chief could stack a department with whoever they wanted a lot easier. I think the issue with most is that the test # is such a crucial part of hiring or promoting. Your qualifications are only a consideration AFTER the score hurdle is overcome. Still eliminating it isn't the only option. I've seen more than a few PDs in different states where there's a CS test, but it's only one factor of many in hiring. I'm a federal employee, with CS protections and appeal rights via MSPB, but no test to overcome, just KSAs, which can be their own beast.

I'm surprised no one has brought up the other major downside to CS in Mass, that appeals are published online with a lot of specific info that can be used against someone forever in the future by defense attorneys or anyone else with access to Google. Some don't even get redacted right. I don't feel bad for those on the losing end of bypass appeals who had no business even applying due to their criminal record. But when all the dirty laundry of internal fighting or faction forming, personal relationship problems, or other uncomfortable subjects that don't rise to the level of a justified termination... I can see a hundred ways that can cause problems for hardworking cops and their entire agencies. There's a difference between FOIA/ MGL 66-10 access to records and totally airing dirty laundry in a public PDF.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

Patr8726 said:


> I agree that it's important to have job protections that CS can provide, otherwise a chief could stack a department with whoever they wanted a lot easier. I think the issue with most is that the test # is such a crucial part of hiring or promoting. Your qualifications are only a consideration AFTER the score hurdle is overcome. Still eliminating it isn't the only option. I've seen more than a few PDs in different states where there's a CS test, but it's only one factor of many in hiring. I'm a federal employee, with CS protections and appeal rights via MSPB, but no test to overcome, just KSAs, which can be their own beast.
> 
> I'm surprised no one has brought up the other major downside to CS in Mass, that appeals are published online with a lot of specific info that can be used against someone forever in the future by defense attorneys or anyone else with access to Google. Some don't even get redacted right. I don't feel bad for those on the losing end of bypass appeals who had no business even applying due to their criminal record. But when all the dirty laundry of internal fighting or faction forming, personal relationship problems, or other uncomfortable subjects that don't rise to the level of a justified termination... I can see a hundred ways that can cause problems for hardworking cops and their entire agencies. There's a difference between FOIA/ MGL 66-10 access to records and totally airing dirty laundry in a public PDF.


Great point. I have seen some awful bypass appeals where the embarrassing information regarding the applicants behavior in an interview or psychological assessment were posted. Granted these people clearly shouldn't have been hired, but some of these appeals reveal things no one would want posted online.


----------



## control

I can see both sides of it and I'm not sure which side I land on honestly. I was a victim of Civil Service. I did well on the test with my department, went through the whole recruit process got the green light and was sent to the medical. They DQ'd me because of a known condition. No one at my department had even heard that my condition would have an impact, there's even guys working now with the same thing as me and having no problems. I appealed it through Civil Service and after thousands in lawyer and doctor bills they denied my appeal saying that even though all the experts say my condition wouldn't effect my ability to work and my department wanted to hire me the medical standards are codified into law and only legislature can change them. 
I've also seen departments "creatively" manipulate the system to get people on or off the lists. And I'm sure anyone in a Civil Service department can name a handful of supervisors who take tests well. Even with my frustrations I can see supporting the system, if the manipulations that happen with CS happen I can only imaging what will happen if the mayors are left to their own devices.
I also think it's completely wrong for a small town to offer a test (and make money off it) to hire one person usually with an academy who they already know. That to me is just as unfair as the CS can be. There's got to be some fair middle ground that balances the bureaucratic BS but still keeps a handle on nepotism.


----------



## CapeSpecial

Those of us who live in non-civil service towns and therefore have residency preference nowhere dislike it.


----------



## Pvt. Cowboy

CapeSpecial said:


> Those of us who live in non-civil service towns and therefore have residency preference nowhere dislike it.


I don't like it because I was never hired.


----------



## visible25

Reading this thread just made me really depressed


----------



## mpd61

Although I never used it State/Municipal, I think it still has some validity.............


----------



## pahapoika

visible25 said:


> Reading this thread just made me really depressed


Just keep punching that ticket.
_Residency
Military service
Political contacts_
Etc,etc,etc


----------



## samadam78

CapeSpecial said:


> Those of us who live in non-civil service towns and therefore have residency preference nowhere dislike it.


Exactly.... Another problem for small towns is that you also get such a limited pool of applicants that you could be missing the best candidate because he lives a town over


----------



## visible25

pahapoika said:


> Just keep punching that ticket.
> _Residency
> Military service
> *Political contacts*_
> Etc,etc,etc


It's a sad reality because I really don't want to be 'that guy' who got on because of his connections, but after being on here for so long I've realized that it may be the only way -well at least to get my foot in the door, as the rest will be up to me


----------



## felony

visible25 said:


> It's a sad reality because I really don't want to be 'that guy' who got on because of his connections, but after being on here for so long I've realized that it may be the only way -well at least to get my foot in the door, as the rest will be up to me


Politics really has a minimal impact on CS. That's the whole point of the system, so nepotism is not a factor in hiring (or at least they try to make it that way). My father was a high ranking officer in a CS community. I knew everyone on the department, even the chief was a family friend, guess what? I wasn't a vet and didn't get hired. If it was a non-cs town, I would have gotten on at 19 and been set. Instead, I busted my ass and got on through bettering myself and going out of state.


----------



## samadam78

Civil service offers some benefits BUT its an out dated system that is in desperate need of changes and as usual our politicians either dont care or are to stupid to realize that departments are pulling out faster than a frat boy


----------



## Pvt. Cowboy

samadam78 said:


> pulling out faster than a frat boy


----------



## OfficerMack

samadam78 said:


> Exactly.... Another problem for small towns is that you also get such a limited pool of applicants that you could be missing the best candidate because he lives a town over


I agree with you on that. My town probably hires maybe three officers every two years, if that. I can only claim residency in my town, and I wouldn't get a card unless I have at least maybe a 97 or 98 on the test, if even that. These days it seems that you have to get a 99 or a 100 to even get on a small town, I have even heard of veterans not being able to get on because their score was too low. I would love to be able to claim residency in a larger city (Springfield, Boston, Worcester, etc.), because there are several officers I know on those departments that weren't veterans, got a score in the mid to high 90s, and got into the academy, because they hire many more officers. I don't have that privilege because I live in a small town, where they hire a very small number of officers.


----------

