# Democracy...or Republic?



## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

I found this over at Moonbattery, in which everything Miss Rottencrotch taught you about our government in grammar school was wrong, right and left are explained and why there are really only two forms of government.

Those of you with children will find this especially helpful when combatting the disinformation and indocrination of the government school system (such as it is...):

Government in One Lesson

:sh:


----------



## KozmoKramer (Apr 25, 2004)

Excellent put up DCS... :thumbup:


----------



## Guest (Jan 2, 2009)

Good video, but did you check out that guy's youtube page? He subscribes to ideas that the US president reports directly to the jesuits. Also the illuminati rule the world.


----------



## DJM1968 (Oct 12, 2007)

MSP75 said:


> Good video, but did you check out that guy's youtube page? He subscribes to ideas that the US president reports directly to the jesuits. Also the illuminati rule the world.


Just goes to show, even intelligent people believe stupid things. Broken clocks, and all that.


----------



## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

MSP75 said:


> Good video, but did you check out that guy's youtube page? He subscribes to ideas that the US president reports directly to the jesuits. Also the illuminati rule the world.


They don't?


----------



## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Great video; I love discussions on government--the study of which is one of my favorite hobbies.

Another reason why I think our own state constitution is an amazing and beautiful document, (no matter how much it's been pooped on by those up at the State House) was virtually the first in the new world to make this distinction that we are, in fact, a republic:


> _In the government of this commonwealth, the legislative department shall never exercise the executive and judicial powers or either of them: the executive shall never exercise the legislative and judicial powers, or either of them: the judicial shall never exercise the legislative and executive powers, or either of them: *to the end it may be a government of laws and not of men*._- _Massachusetts Constitution_, Part The First, art. XXX (1780).


However, I disagree with the two-dimensional graph towards the beginning of the video. I think the political spectrum is three dimensional (the one below is one of the many models on a 3D plane):










Without sounding like a radical whackjob, I think too much democracy has eroded the Constitution a bit too much for my liking. All one needs to do is to look at the unamended federal Constitution to see that Congressmen were originally the only directly elected federal office. I personally think elected judges are a horrible idea that erodes the independent judiciary. The 17th Amendment granting the direct elections of U.S. Senators was the wrong answer to a definate problem which needed to be addressed, and ups the the politics on what was intended to be the calmer, more thoughtful of the two congressional houses. One only needs to take a look at the execution of Question 2 to see what happens when a law doesn't recieve the proper vetting of the elected representives (I concede they also leave a lot to be desired.)

I think the video is right on point that most people indeed don't make this distinction between "democracy" and "republic", and who lump "democracy" in with the Stars and Stripes, baseball, and apple pie--they think it's what they should believe in to be considered "good Amercians", a sentiment that's ingrained upon them from Miss Rottencrotch on down.


----------



## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

Excellent post, though wasted on most brain-washed Americans. Most Americans are more concerned with WWE, celebrity gossip and American Idol then what the state of their government is in. 
Bread and Circuses indeed!

Victor Davis Hansen warns of the dangers of an unrestrained democracy in _A War Like No Other_, a book detailing the Peloponnesian War. During the stalemate between the invincible-on-land Spartans, and the invincible-by-sea Athenians, one man, Alcibiades, whips the Athenians into a such frenzy he convinces them to launch an expedition to conquer the only other_ democratic _city in the Mediterranean, Syracuse. The Athenians assemble a massive naval and army force, only to have it ignominiously crushed by the Spartan-led Syracusians. It is telling that the people of Greece feared the Athenian Democracy as much as they feared the Spartan Oligarchy.


----------



## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

OfficerObie59 said:


> I disagree with the two-dimensional graph towards the beginning of the video. I think the political spectrum is three dimensional (the one below is one of the many models on a 3D plane):


I realize now I f$%ked that up...never great at geometry.


----------



## Loyal (Oct 21, 2007)

The People's REPUBLIC of China......???????????? huh ?


----------



## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Loyal said:


> The People's REPUBLIC of China......???????????? huh ?


How about the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics? In the most basic of definitions, all a republic is is a state w/o a monarchy in which the people helped to establish. I was always brought up that we were not purely a democracy, and not just a republic, but a _democratic republic_. Democracy is the adjective describing the republic.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2009)

The USSR was a republic. The problem was the Communitst Party was the only legal party. Thus, the Central Committee of the Communist Party (CCCP) really ran the show. The stupid celebrity loving and social program dependent public are doing the same thing on their own by voting in DemocRats.


----------



## Guest (Jan 3, 2009)

MSP75 said:


> The problem was the Communitst Party was the only legal party.


Don't we have a similar problem here in Massachusetts?


----------



## HuskyH-2 (Nov 16, 2008)

Found this really interesting, thanks for the post


----------



## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

OfficerObie59 said:


> "...I was always brought up that we were not purely a democracy, and not just a republic, but a _democratic republic_. Democracy is the adjective describing the republic."


Me too. I think the problem has become one of an emphasis on the "democracy" and an atrophy of the "republic" parts of the equation, not only in public perception, but in basic education (which may be a root of the problem) as well.

One manifestation of this is the call for the dissolution of the Electoral College, substituting a direct election of the POTUS by popular vote. We did not hear much about it this time though, as the communists were successful at the ballot box. Too, the cry of "election fraud" and "disenfranchisement" are all but absent (even as Franken 'steals' Coleman's senate seat...which I believe is as much Coleman's fault as Franken's: but that is a discussion for another thread!). Should this ever occur, the country would be run by the will of several densely populated states...'blue' in philosophy (so far as the "unwashed" can be said to have a philosophy). Even now, I think we are increasingly governed by a "tyranny of the majority": those densely populated areas across the country, where little of value is produced and much of value is consumed. Could this be corrected by altering the way in which states electoral votes were distributed: proportional versus winner-take-all? Should we, perhaps, place limits on the franchise (yes, as an American I bridle at that idea, but...), such as those who, in effect, pay no taxes have no vote? Or those who derive all or some percentage of their living from the dole (to include SSI in all its forms) having no say in the matters of governance? I ask this as such people have a vested interest in a large, socialistic government ('bread and circuses') contrary to the American Ideal of achievement through hard work and sacrifice. I guess one could argue that we too, have a vested interest in being left alone and not having the "fruits of our labor" confiscated and redistributed to those who do not contribute:

"A wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another, which shall leave them otherwise free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, AND SHALL NOT TAKE FROM THE MOUTH OF LABOR THE BREAD IT HAS EARNED. This is the sum of good government."

-Tommy Jefferson, first inaugural address, March 04, 1801.


----------



## Guest (Jan 4, 2009)

So we actually have a Democratic republic and not the Republic that our founding fathers though of. 

So in all actuallity since a Democracy is "a rule of the majority (read 51%)
and a republic is " a rule of law"

Does this make the US a nation, "ruled by law but only the majority of law"?


----------



## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

A Bolshevik troll. Swell.

Thanks for defining "majority" for everyone. Please return to the basement and your Xbox...subjects of gravity are apparently beyond your grasp at this time.


----------



## kwflatbed (Dec 29, 2004)

MySpace.com - *Caleb Ragnarok* - 29 - Male - Worcester *...*

There is all kinds of fun reading if you Google him.


----------



## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Caleb Ragnarok said:


> So we actually have a Democratic republic and not the Republic that our founding fathers though of.
> 
> So in all actuallity since a Democracy is "a rule of the majority (read 51%)
> and a republic is " a rule of law"
> ...





dcs2244 said:


> A Bolshevik troll. Swell.
> 
> Thanks for defining "majority" for everyone. Please return to the basement and your Xbox...subjects of gravity are apparently beyond your grasp at this time.


Caleb, try reading the entire thread before you post. You make yourself sound like an idiot.

There are some basic things which are inherently part of my nature that I try not do on a daily basis while on this borad: judge people, be condescending, and force my views upon others. However, you may be deserving of all three.

Let's have an English and history lesson shall, we? Take the term "Democratic republic".

"Republic" is the noun. This is the item, the thing, the foundation of this complicated two word phrase. "Democratic" is the adjective form of the word "democracy". It describes "Republic"; note, however, adjectives are not 'all or nothing'-- our republic contains more elements of democracy than anything else, but is not purely so. In the same vein, we are also a capitalist republic, but we do not have pure ("laizze-faire") capitalism.

No doubt, we are at our foundation a republic. But republics take many forms; China, the USSR, and the United States are/were all republics. None have monarchies, and at some level, no matter how much it has been perverted since, the government's were established with some consent of the people. However, China and the USSR took a socialist path in the era of Marxism, and they also follow the rule of law. Problem is, their laws oppress their people.

The United States takes much of it's cues from the Enlightement period in history in which it was founded. In the era of the Enlightenment, monarchies were virtually the only form of government and other than the Dutch, republican government was a virtually new idea. When Ben Franklin said "we've given you a republic, ma'am", there was no need to add in the adjective; the term "Republic" was assumed to be all-inclusive of the term "democratic". While he was a bright guy, I don't know Franklin ever could have forseen the advent of socialism, requiring the need for the term "Republic" to be further defined to distinguish it from our "democratic" form of government.


----------



## Guest (Jan 4, 2009)

@Obie. I did read the whole thread. Idiot? most likely. Bolshevik troll? probally not. Communism at its core will never work in any of the world's societies. never...

I agree with your statements concerning republics (china, USSR and such). Would you say that most current or past republics(those that were destroyed from within before being overrun from the outside) held a parliment istead of a seperate house and senate.

Correct me if I'm wrong, which I'm sure will happen, but the first real republics Greece and Rome, well...more Rome, because republics to serve the will of the people. The both ended up being severely corrupt and as a result perished. Atleast with Rome's case, it turned into an empire rules by the Ceasars.

@KWflatbead
I made no attempt to hide my online identity. and for more reading up please go to the following sites
www.maxconsole.com
www.360gamesaves.com
www.ebay.com
www.xboxamerica.com
www.360voice.com

I love to debate and I welcome any and all serious critizisms or points of view. And I feel that the electoral college was installed in our country to better get a consensus of what the will of the people really is. To get rid of it would be detrimental to our election process. Like DCS2244 has already said in his post.


----------



## 7costanza (Aug 29, 2006)

Sorry to interrupt..I was just wondereing if your Mom was single...Im also a gamer and love cooking with weed ...I love Deloreans also we could be buddies.

 
Me and my mother at last years food show at WPI...


----------



## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

A chef, eh? Perhaps I've been too hasty...that might prove useful around here. Perhaps a thread, "Ask a Chef" next to the cop one...I imagine he'd get the same dillweed questions about cooking that the cops get about the law and "rights" (real or imagined). Too, we'd have our very own chef for the periodic meet-n-greets (don't eat the brownies, though  ).


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2009)

7costanza said:


> Sorry to interrupt..I was just wondereing if your Mom was single...Im also a gamer and love cooking with weed ...I love Deloreans also we could be buddies.
> 
> 
> Me and my mother at last years food show at WPI...


No.. She's been happily married to my dad for over 35 years. Send me your gamertag if your on xbox live. I'll play with ya. Cooking is fun yeah, but nothing like riding in one of those awesome DMC-12s... SO MUCH FUN!


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2009)

dcs2244 said:


> A chef, eh? Perhaps I've been too hasty...that might prove useful around here. Perhaps a thread, "Ask a Chef" next to the cop one...I imagine he'd get the same dillweed questions about cooking that the cops get about the law and "rights" (real or imagined). Too, we'd have our very own chef for the periodic meet-n-greets (don't eat the brownies, though  ).


HEHE brownies.. no thank-you..Diabetic. 
You'd be surprised at some of the questions I get. I'm sure you have your topt ten list of stupid 'ask a cop questions'. My favorite one was when I was at JWU, Junior year. I was working in the school cafe for my inschool service credits. I was on the deli making sandwiches and this freak comes up and asks for a turkey sandwich. As I'm making it he leans over and asks "Is that real turkey?" I'm not gonna post my responce here, cause of all the colorful metaphors.

BTW.. Dill weed is two words.. I'd be happy to cook for you guys. Always take care of those that take care of you right?


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2009)

kwflatbed said:


> MySpace.com - *Caleb Ragnarok* - 29 - Male - Worcester *...*
> 
> There is all kinds of fun reading if you Google him.


Please tell me you shaved off the 'stache.....








and for 66.. I hope I look like you when I'm that old.. If I last that long


----------



## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

Caleb,

You might ease into it a little...
I see you also posted an old youtube favorite under the "firepower" section of our forum. In light of the westfield incident, we probably don't need to see that stuff for a while.


----------



## Guest (Jan 5, 2009)

mpd61 said:


> Caleb,
> 
> You might ease into it a little...
> I see you also posted an old youtube favorite under the "firepower" section of our forum. In light of the westfield incident, we probably don't need to see that stuff for a while.


OH!! never thought of that.. thats true. sorry if I got anyone mad or sad..8-[


----------



## kttref (Oct 5, 2004)

OOORRRRRR we can all go back to the topic at hand. Both old and new members


----------

