# Bible Study Class



## SgtAndySipowicz (Mar 17, 2008)

http://radio.foxnews.com/toddstarnes/top-stories/man-facing-jail-for-hosting-home-bible-study.html

*60 days in jail for hosting a Bible study class in Phoenix AZ??? War on Christianity continues......*


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

Wonder how much time someone would get for hosting a Muslim Prayer?


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2012)

I am completely gobsmacked. If he were hosting BBQ's with friends, it wouldn't be an issue. If he were having birthday parties, it wouldn't be an issue. If he were having swinger parties, I'm sure it wouldn't ve an issue. I've been to dozens of bible studies at people's homes, where we meet regularly. I have never heard such insanity. The fact that they are enforcing these ridiculous rules just because they are holding Christian activities is truly unbelievable. Where is the ACLU on this one??? 

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## Meat Eater (Jan 27, 2012)

I'm sure someone who lives close by has a lot of political pull and is pulling the strings. They should spend more time breaking up houses filled with 15-20 illagal immigrants. I hope he starts a bible study class in jail.


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## HistoryHound (Aug 30, 2008)

Last time I checked the Bible was a book and they're meeting to discuss a book, so let's call it a book club instead. If they tried to enforce something like that around here my neighbor would be screwed with the frequent gatherings at his house. There is no off street parking for his guests and you can barely squeeze one care up/down the street when he has company. I can't stand the guy, but as long as they don't violate the noise ordinance or block my driveway, I don't really care what he does in his own house/yard.


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## SgtAndySipowicz (Mar 17, 2008)

263FPD said:


> Wonder how much time someone would get for hosting a Muslim Prayer?


*If this occured and it was a Muslim prayer group you would have CAIR, ACLU and President Obama waying in on the issue......*


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## Johnny Law (Aug 8, 2008)

I read the story. This guy, Michael Salman and his family, have been holding Bible studies since 2005, which were originally attended by up to 15 people. In 2007 the city got involved because it grew to 20 people and the neighbors complained about traffic congestion.

In 2009 the family built an outbuilding to hold up to 40 people, complete with a pulpit and pews. There is a sign in front along with a cross, but somehow the family calls it a "game room" and not a church. The city calls it a church.

If I read that story right, they have Bible study three times a week. Did I mention
Salman is an ordained pastor?

This is where this family gets jammed up, they are trying to say it's Bible study when it is really running a church out of a residential neighborhood. So they are getting jammed up on zoning violations, not on religious grounds.


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## SgtAndySipowicz (Mar 17, 2008)

Johnny Law said:


> I read the story. This guy, Michael Salman and his family, have been holding Bible studies since 2005, which were originally attended by up to 15 people. In 2007 the city got involved because it grew to 20 people and the neighbors complained about traffic congestion.
> 
> In 2009 the family built an outbuilding to hold up to 40 people, complete with a pulpit and pews. There is a sign in front along with a cross, but somehow the family calls it a "game room" and not a church. The city calls it a church.
> 
> ...


*Try driving down Chubbuck Street in Quincy while a friday Mosque service (ICNE) is going on. The QPD gets flooded with irate 911 and business line calls. This mosque sits in the middle of a residential neighborhood. The mosque does obviously hold the proper permits etc. Could this Pastor in Phoenix be pushing the zoning laws a bit? It appears possible. Should he go to jail for 60 days? Ahhhh no. I see convicted felons get NO JAIL/PRISON sentences frequently in MA. 60 DAYS IN JAIL for a zoning violation? Something seems out of whack here.......and like I said, if this were a Mosque etc the ACLU, CAIR and the like would be out protesting in mass....... should be a civil matter only/fine etc........*


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## Johnny Law (Aug 8, 2008)

SgtAndySipowicz said:


> * Could this Pastor in Phoenix be pushing the zoning laws a bit? It appears possible. Should he go to jail for 60 days? Ahhhh no. I see convicted felons get NO JAIL/PRISON sentences frequently in MA.*


There is the heart of the matter right there. We are in MA, he is in AZ. They don't fuck around in AZ. I didn't say I agree with it in this case


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2012)

Johnny Law said:


> I read the story. This guy, Michael Salman and his family, have been holding Bible studies since 2005, which were originally attended by up to 15 people. In 2007 the city got involved because it grew to 20 people and the neighbors complained about traffic congestion.
> 
> In 2009 the family built an outbuilding to hold up to 40 people, complete with a pulpit and pews. There is a sign in front along with a cross, but somehow the family calls it a "game room" and not a church. The city calls it a church.
> 
> ...


It's not a church. There is a difference. So they have a separate building they use for the group. So it has pews instead of couches. So there are 20 people instead of 3 or 4... You may as well say that any gathering of more than 2 people who meet regularly to read the bible or talk about God is considered a church, and that would be completely inaccurate. A church is a non profit organized place of worship, open to the public for worship at designated times. This does not sound like that.

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## Johnny Law (Aug 8, 2008)

Hey, I'm no aethiest, but let me play devil's advocate (no pun intended). Let's stop being coy and call a spade a spade here. You have an outbuilding with pews, a pulpit to preach from and a message board out front with a cross. The only thing missing is the steeple and a bell. By Salman's own admission "We started worshipping in that building every weekend.” Sounds like this is a place of worship, open at designated times by the owner, and it involves a modicum of organization to pull it all off.

Without knowing the makeup of this specific neighborhood (sparsely or densely populated, street width, thru street or dead end) if the traffic jumped in count, if backing out of my own driveway made me cringe at hitting one of 40 people that used to NOT be there and if my neighbor was consistently losing his battles in court, I'd be pissed this was still going on.

Of course, I live here and I can't see it from my house, so I don't have a dog in this fight.


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## HistoryHound (Aug 30, 2008)

But, would you have the same concerns if your neighbor had a fantasy league and had 40 people over every time there was a game on or every time they wanted to discuss whatever it is you people with fantasy leagues get together to discuss? It sounded like they were parking on his property, so the only real issue might be when people are arriving or leaving which might cause a little extra traffic on the street. We're not talking about 40 cars, we're talking about 40 people who presumably don't all come in separate cars. What if he was having AA meetings at his house 2 or 3 times a week? Would that also be a problem? As far as having pews and a pulpit, there are no laws dictating how one can decorate (although sometimes I think there should be).


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## Guest (Jul 11, 2012)

Johnny Law said:


> I live on a dead end street, so yes, I'd have a problem with that. But I'd speak to my neighbor about such things before it got out of hand.
> 
> Let's say 20 cars show up, 2 people per car. Three times a week is 60 cars. That's 120 trips (to and from). My neighbor does have some type of meeting twice a week at her house. 3-5 cars show up. My issue isn't with the message or even how it's delivered.
> 
> Again, I don't know the makeup of this person's street, but if it was mine and it used to be quiet before all the gatherings at the building that looks and acts like a church, but is really just a big game room with pews and a pulpit, yeah, I'd say I had concerns with it, regardless of what is being done there.


If it were the just the parking issue, I'd agree with you. But penalizing him w/ all those other fees for the building itself is completely overkill. I've seen very large families or groups of people who DO have church services in their home, and make no secret of designating them as such. Never, not once, have I ever heard of them being penalized for not having a lit up exit sign or handicapped parking.


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## Johnny Law (Aug 8, 2008)

I agree right as rain, they are making an example out of him, no doubt about it. Likely because this pissing match started in 2005 I think? So what started out as a minor issue, grew bigger when he threw the FD off the property, and someone got butt hurt over it (probably both sides).


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## Guest (Jul 12, 2012)

Johnny Law said:


> I agree right as rain, they are making an example out of him, no doubt about it. Likely because this pissing match started in 2005 I think? So what started out as a minor issue, grew bigger when he threw the FD off the property, and someone got butt hurt over it (probably both sides).


I just think it's disgraceful that if this guy had been hosting Muslims instead of Christians, or even some other kind of event or party, they never would've hassled him to begin with. They can say it's not religiously motivated, but they never would've done this to a Muslim.

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## kwflatbed (Dec 29, 2004)

*Arizona man sent to jail for holding Bible studies in his home*​​By Maegan Vazquez​Published August 05, 2012​FoxNews.com​

A Phoenix pastor who was jailed for holding a Bible study group on his private property is now holding one behind bars.
Michael Salman is serving a 60-day sentence in Maricopa County's notorious Tent City jail for allegedly violating his probation by holding religious services on his property in violation of zoning and building codes. He was arrested July 9, after authorities charged the one-time gang member hosted Bible sessions for as many 80 people on his 4-acre property, which he tried to claim as a tax-exempt church.​​'I'm sure he'd do it all over again.'​- John Whitehead, lawyer for Michael Salman
​"And I'm sure he'd do it all over again," attorney John Whitehead, president of the Rutherford Institute, told FoxNews.com.​In a sense, he is. Salman has assembled a Bible study group on site that has been attended by as many as 30 inmates, according to Whitehead. On Thursday, he was chosen to lead inmates in prayer for the anniversary of the Tent City jail, just before they dined on moon pies, according to a report.​​​Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/05/arizona-man-sent-to-jail-for-holding-bible-studies-in-his-home/#ixzz22h63ERQ2​


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## Guest (Aug 5, 2012)

No brainer appeal.


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## Meat Eater (Jan 27, 2012)

Tax exempt is the key to this whole case.


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## Kilvinsky (Jan 15, 2007)

Why doesn't this guy just build a church? I'm seeing both sides. Ok, when he had a few people in his home for a bible study, he was absolutely doing nothing wrong. Twenty people in his back yard, ok, seems reasonable; family reunions can get that big.

But the building in the back yard set up like a church complete with sign? Come on pal, at this point you're just trying to provoke the city. The city isn't all wrong here, neither is he, but both sides are somewhat wrong, mostly him. JUST BUILD A DAMN CHURCH!

The guy has 4.6 acres, I'm sure he could get the zoning and if not, I'm sure he could find some vacant property in Phoenix to build a church. Look at how many storefronts become Pentacostal churches all over the place.

Sorry, I cannot side with this guy. He may be a wonderful human being and yeah, he's doing God's work, but at this point, he's just pushing to see how far he can go, what noise he can make and how much attention he can attract. THAT is NOT God's work, just a guy in a martyr kick.


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## Guest (Aug 6, 2012)

Kilvinsky said:


> Sorry, I cannot side with this guy. He may be a wonderful human being and yeah, he's doing God's work, but at this point, he's just pushing to see how far he can go, what noise he can make and how much attention he can attract. THAT is NOT God's work, just a guy in a martyr kick.


The men who signed the Declaration of Independence pushed to see how far they could go, and then some.


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## Kilvinsky (Jan 15, 2007)

Touche, but I still think either get the proper permitting or go elsewhere. If he believes in what he teaches, he'll endure any hell man pushes him through to spread the word of God. I admire his determination, but I still think over all, he's wrong.

Many Central and South Americans push the envelope to come to America as well, and not in the legal sense. Doing things the right and legal way will increase your chances of having friends and supporters.


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## Rock (Mar 20, 2005)

Kilvinsky said:


> JUST BUILD A DAMN CHURCH!


 Oh boy, now you've done it Straight to hell


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