# Departments forced to circumvent civil service?



## RedWaterMan (Dec 19, 2005)

I have heard that some departments may be forced to create their own testing at the beginning of 06 because they either aren't getting enough interest from civil service or the applicants are poor options. Is this true? Has anyone heard which departments are doing this?

<Moved to Municipal Police Forum - Not a Job Listings Post.> Kozmo


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## Macop (May 2, 2002)

You may want to post this under the Civil Circus section or under the Municipal Police section.

P.S you can't circumvent CS


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## Mitpo62 (Jan 13, 2004)

A city or town circumvent, on their own, Civil Service? N E V A H ! ! ! :sb:


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

RedWaterMan said:


> I have heard that some departments may be forced to create their own testing at the beginning of 06 because they either aren't getting enough interest from civil service or the *applicants are poor options*. Is this true? Has anyone heard which departments are doing this? (QUOTE)
> 
> The applicants are poor options? Do you think hiring someone's nephew is going to be any better? Civil Service may not be perfect but it levels the playing field in a manner that can't be compared to all the other available options.
> 
> ...


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## Macop (May 2, 2002)

Scores dont mean shit on that test. And it doest level the playing field at all.


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## irish937 (Sep 13, 2005)

I think what 94c was getting at was at least they are accountable to some extent. Is the system perfect? No, of course not, but none are. What would be better? In a non-civil service city or town they can hire whomever they choose, best candidate or not.....AND what system is usually in place to stop any b.s.?


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

Well, let's look at the obvious... Northampton, Westborough and Hopedale have all dumped CS in the past year or two. I'm not sure what other towns have. And there are many mid-size towns that are NOT CS. And more and more towns are dumping CS for the Chief's position. I think its safe to say many towns see the faults of the system.

>moved to civil service forum<


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## irish937 (Sep 13, 2005)

Taking a chief out of civil service is very different than entry level. Municipalities who take that position out use the premise that they want to hire the best candidate. In MOST situations, I believe that the City or Town Fathers want more political control over the position. You are right, the days of civil service strong chiefs are coming to an end. This is good and bad. There is less red tape to cut if you have a slug you want to fire, but bad if you have a boss with a spine and the powers that be don't like to be put in their place. Many civilians like to give their input on police operations when they have absolutely no idea about it. A police chief needs the latitude to run his/her department without constant fear of termination. Northampton has a very specific process for hiring now. They have a test, PT, background, etc. It is very similar to civil service, but without the statutory restrictions. The process is lengthy and expensive. Most departments (small and large) would find this too cost prohibitive. Remember, Northampton is a fairly affluent community with many resources.


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

> Taking a chief out of civil service is very different than entry level. Municipalities who take that position out use the premise that they want to hire the best candidate.


The perfect reason to remove the entry level ranks from CS too. Yes, I agree that Northampton uses a process similar to CS, but it still gives them right to hire whom they want (ideally the best cand.). Some towns removed from CS don't even administer a test, they normally measure the qualifications and quality of the candidate through interviews and background checks. A written test is a joke -- however granted, you wouldn't want to be hiring someone who would only score a 40 on the test either. But when you balance a candidate with a 98 and another with a 95, the non CS has more flexibilty in that area. If a CS town did that then "BAM", an appeal to the CS commission.


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

RPD931 said:


> Well, let's look at the obvious... Northampton, Westborough and Hopedale have all dumped CS in the past year or two. I'm not sure what other towns have. And there are many mid-size towns that are NOT CS. And more and more towns are dumping CS for the Chief's position. I think its safe to say many towns see the faults of the system.
> 
> there is one reason and only one reason that chiefs are being taken out of civil service by the local politicians. It is so that they can control the puppet on the strings. Don't give me this crap about them doing it to find better candidates. Civil Service is the only thing in place to keep the politicians at bay.
> 
> ...


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## fjmas1976 (Aug 27, 2005)

94c said:


> RPD931 said:
> 
> 
> > Well, let's look at the obvious... Northampton, Westborough and Hopedale have all dumped CS in the past year or two. I'm not sure what other towns have. And there are many mid-size towns that are NOT CS. And more and more towns are dumping CS for the Chief's position. I think its safe to say many towns see the faults of the system.
> ...


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## RedWaterMan (Dec 19, 2005)

So you're telling me that with the civil service system in place the departments are required to first look at the highest scores without question? [-( No way, even with civil service there is still politics. All civil service does is create a standardized ranking system and ensure that people really want the profession by making them wait.

Anywhere, in any profession, it's about who you know, there are plenty of guys below 95 or maybe 90 that are working out there and it isn't because of the civil service exam. 

If anything the exam should be offered more frequently to assist in maintaining applicant pools for departments that lose out in the scheme of things due to other departments or the staties.


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## j809 (Jul 5, 2002)

Westborough was not civil service for at least 10 years that i've known them.


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## 7MPOC (Mar 16, 2004)

RedWaterMan said:


> So you're telling me that with the civil service system in place the departments are required to first look at the highest scores without question? [-( No way, even with civil service there is still politics. All civil service does is create a standardized ranking system and ensure that people really want the profession by making them wait.
> 
> Ok I think what your saying is that departments look at the high scores and say hmmm.. we need to get to the guys we know??? Im not sure if thats what you mean but thats what it sounded like.
> 
> First off I think alot of people dont really understand how hiring in civil service departments work. When a department is going to hire, they notify civil service. CIVIL SERVICE then sends a list to the department containing the names of people who fit in the 2n+1 rule. CIVIL SERVICE then notifies the applicants by mail. When the department gets the certification of the names, there are no scores listed, just the names and an asterisk * If they are veterans. The department essentially has to hire from the top name unless they can find a reason to disqualify/bypass. I know the testing and preferance system is quite complex, but there really is know way for politics to influence hiring....unless the department knows the applicants that civil service sends to you.


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## j809 (Jul 5, 2002)

Civil Service has its pros and cons. I work for a non-civil service department and it is a very squared away PD and money is great. The entrance requirments are very stringent (BS degree minimum , MAster's Preferred, FT academy and experience). I was not a nephew of anyone and applied for the position just like everyone else. Went through a long process of approximately a year and got hired with two other officers ,both of them no ties or connections to anyone in town or department. As far as protection goes, we have MASSCOP for a union and had no problems at all with the Chief, Town Manager or Selectmen. I've had numerous arrests and citations over the year and had no problems, nor was I ever spoken to, to slow down or stop writing them. There is a huge misconception that non-civil service PDs are bad to work for. Examples of non-civil service PDs in MA that have great benefits, salary,incentives are Concord,Westborough,Carlisle, Harvard, Boxborough, Southborough, Northborough, Hopkinton, Holliston and many more. I also think that there are less internal problems with police officers in non-cs departments, because a Chief can choose the best candidate and not just a person that scored the highest on an exam. With the new CS guidelines, score is useless unless you are a veteran anyways, but that is another arguement. A non-cs department can do a more thorough background and disqualify people for fewer things than a CS department can.I hear more CS departments with huge infighting and internal termoil that I just do not hear in non-cs departments.


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

> I would hate to be a police officer in this day and age without civil service protection.


 Well, there are quite a few of them in this state.


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## topcop14 (Jul 13, 2004)

RPD931 said:


> Well, let's look at the obvious... Northampton, Westborough and Hopedale have all dumped CS in the past year or two. I'm not sure what other towns have. And there are many mid-size towns that are NOT CS. And more and more towns are dumping CS for the Chief's position. I think its safe to say many towns see the faults of the system.
> 
> >moved to civil service forum<


Westborough hasn't been CS for quite some time. Hopedale adopted CS, almost the entire department then lateraled to better departments. The town then dumped CS. The City and Town fathers will always hate CS. Why you ask. Because it protects the officers. My department adopted CS about 5 years ago. Much to the disappointment of the Town Fathers. They tried to kill it at every level. It passed by a huge margin. 
The chief is not CS. How many waves would you make if at the end of three years you were going to be looking for a new job?
Why is that only people who are not on the job, or are not working for CS department are against CS.


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## KindaConfused (Mar 17, 2005)

j809 said:


> With the new CS guidelines, score is useless unless you are a veteran anyways, but that is another arguement.


 Says who? It all comes down to how many veterens put themself on a particular list. From my experience so far, being a resident of the city/town is more important then being a vet to get high on the list.


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## irish937 (Sep 13, 2005)

KindaConfused said:


> Says who? It all comes down to how many veterens put themself on a particular list. From my experience so far, being a resident of the city/town is more important then being a vet to get high on the list.


I tend to agree with you here. When I was hired by my first department in 1995, there was NOT ONE veteran on the list. Granted it was a small town, but still the same. Being a resident in a town only guarantees that you will be placed above non-residents. You will still be placed below vets, dvets, sons/daughters of PO killed. I think it is more timing and I'm sure it can be frustrating.
94c-You are mostly right about the political puppet. There are exceptions, like anything else. The other issue is what about a POS in as a tenured, strong chief? It takes a very long time to remove them. Nothing is perfect I guess.


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

RPD931 said:


> *Well, let's look at the obvious...* Northampton, Westborough and Hopedale have all dumped CS in the past year or two. I'm not sure what other towns have. And there are many mid-size towns that are NOT CS. And more and more towns are dumping CS for the Chief's position. I think its safe to say many towns see the faults of the system.
> 
> well let's look at the obvious....3 departments equal what, 10 cops?


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## chief801 (Dec 8, 2004)

The only value civil service has is that it allows an officer to lateral. As far a protection goes, good cops don't need it! Your collective bargaining agreements should offer all of the protections you need. If not, you need to negotiate a better contract. 

At one point, I fell victim to lack of civil service protection as a chief. Not re-appointed for reasons "unknown". To be honest, civil service protection would have done nothing for me. Why would anyone want to work in an environment that makes it very difficult to do your job? Who wants protection to keep a shitty job? 

From an entry level perspective, I don't think the test has any relevance for hiring. Of course you look for a candidate with some minimum level of intelligence, but you can determine that by other means. The test cannot measure whether or not a candidate has the right "fit" for your organization or whether or not the officer's vision is in synch with the vision and mission of the department. Just like private sector, there are millions of intelligent people who aren't hired for jobs that they are otherwise qualified for because they exhibit qualities that would be detrimental to the "team". Same example can be cited for athletes. How many great players are out there that you would not like to see in the Pats, Sox, Bruins, or Celtics locker room? One member of the team that is not in tune with the rest can negatively impact performance in the field. (both in policing and sports) Non-civil service allows a town to pick what is the "best" for them. They are footing the bill, we protect their citizens, the Chief runs the team. The Chief should have the right to pick his "players" if he is going to be responsible for their actions!

I've seen non-civil service guys get screwed initially, but if they did nothing wrong, they got their jobs back through the appeals process. (That's a good thing) I've also seen civil service guys that deserved to be fired keep their jobs thanks to screwed up civil service protection. (That's bad) For the most part, the guys that benefit from civil service protection screwed up, and the good guys in the department should be pissed about that, not applauding their return!

I'm sure some of you have horror stories about a chief, mayor,town manager, or board of selectmen who had an axe to grind, and went after someone inappropriately. But I'm sure those numbers pale in comparison to the number of slugs that kept their jobs thanks to civil circus.

Now that I'm sure I've sparked a firestorm...fire away guys!


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

take very deep breaths chief. The higher you get the thinner the air. It has been proven that lack of oxygen to the brain can cause light headedness and confusion. Once, if ever, we get you stabilized, things may become clearer for you. If not, then I'm afraid we lost you like we've lost so many good cops before you.


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## Officer Dunngeon (Aug 16, 2002)

He is pretty tall...


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

Well... Northampton is about almost 70 sworn.. I believe Westborough is almost 50.. and Hopedale is under 20. More than 10..lol..


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## chief801 (Dec 8, 2004)

Thanks for the concern, but the air up here is fine. I spent the off-season training in the high altitude environment of Denver, CO to ensure that I could function back here in Mass without a drop in performance. LOL 

Besides, the air up here is crisp and clear, unlike the air you must be taking in with your head up your ass!! Just remember the comments when you ascend to the higher altitudes, try to be reasonable, and do the right thing. When those who have yet to be put in your position assume that you have been lost to the dark side or that you have suddenly forgotten everything you ever learned on/about the job and you are confused now, I hope you recall our exchange and smile. 

Be safe, Merry Chistmas 94c....I mean that sincerely.
And Dungy...I'm not that tall!! You are just vertically challenged...I hope all is well!

chief801


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## laxball33 (Mar 23, 2004)

> *Originally Posted by Topcop14*
> Why is that only people who are not on the job, or are not working for CS department are against CS


Amen to that, there's alot of CS haters out there

And also the way I've always understood a Chief's position is that it is an appointed position and there are 2 categories. A weak chief who if the selectman decide not to reappoint does not have much protection and a strong chief who the selectman have to jump through hoops to get rid of. 
If the selectman tried to dump you before Chief it may have been because they didn't think you were doing a good job, don't hate CS for that, try looking in the mirror.
Not to mention a patrol position and a Chief's position are in 2 separate ballparks and can't be compared when talking about job security.


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

chief801 said:


> Thanks for the concern, but the air up here is fine. I spent the off-season training in the high altitude environment of Denver, CO to ensure that I could function back here in Mass without a drop in performance. LOL
> 
> Besides, the air up here is crisp and clear, unlike the air you must be taking in with your head up your ass!! Just remember the comments when you ascend to the higher altitudes, try to be reasonable, and do the right thing. When those who have yet to be put in your position assume that you have been lost to the dark side or that you have suddenly forgotten everything you ever learned on/about the job and you are confused now, I hope you recall our exchange and smile.
> 
> ...


MERRY CHRISTMAS CHIEF. (I refuse to allow my head to go up my ass) so i agree with you to a point and we'll leave it at that.


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## chief801 (Dec 8, 2004)

Laxball, your understanding is incorrect. A strong chief ( which I was) only means that you are in control of the operations, facilities, personnel, etc. Regardless of performance, at the end of your contract they can say, "thanks, but we've decided to not extend your contract"

Not that I have to explain myself to you, but we were never over budget, no citizen's complaints, moved into a new building, increased grant funding, vote of CONFIDENCE from the union. I can look in the mirror everyday and thank Christ I got out of that hell hole...


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## laxball33 (Mar 23, 2004)

Yeah Chief, not to start a fight but I'm sure you were the second savior as you explained and this horrible corrupt town administration just chose to let you go. I've seen first hand horrible chief's and have never seen a chief gotten rid of like you explain. Not to say that you weren't right cause we all know how selectman are but give me some more, like what town you worked for and what the circumstances were, cause believe it or not I am on your side. I experienced a small town and can tell you that I remember the small town politics and the ignorant selectman.


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## popo (Apr 1, 2005)

Hey LAxball, your last CHief was a dink and for years he was in power. He was in power because a fat detective on your PD had dirt on him and the mayor. Chief801 is a good Chief and I heard great things about him and you would never know. Laxball, you are not the gambler Perez, are you?


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## chief801 (Dec 8, 2004)

Lax, try this on..."Chief, we decided to approve the new Lt. position you asked for. Oh, and by the way the new Lt. is going to be our boy, part-timer, no full-time academy." 

I say,"No, [email protected]#!#!# way! Not qualified. If this goes forward I'll go public." 
They rescind the appointment, but the next day I get a letter saying that my contract won't be renewed. 

Never given any reason, never disciplined, no negative reviews...
I was told after I left (seven months before my contract was up) that they were trying to "send a message" across my bow that they were in charge. Probably could have stayed there if I kissed ass, but refused. That's the story....


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## laxball33 (Mar 23, 2004)

popo, your name lives up to your reputation. Sounds like someone didn't get the job in my city and is a little bitter. take your weak ass cb4 avatar and go back to the campus. the chief already explained his situation which sounds like a good ol fashion non-civil service selectman screwing so I'll believe that. As for you, "I'm a F/T city cop and my interests are your wife", why don't you change you childish profile and update you profile to what we all know it really is, full time fluffer. And no this isn't the officer currently on administrative leave.


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## Officer Dunngeon (Aug 16, 2002)

Well now!


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## irish937 (Sep 13, 2005)

Chief801, I think any officer would respect you for having a spine and trying to run your department. So you understand, most rank and file, do not, and will NEVER, see that type of behavior out of a boss. Especially, when there is little or no protection offered as a chief. You fell on your sword. Any place can be like that, Harvard OR Sterling! Local politics change as frequently as the wind. Good luck!


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## popo (Apr 1, 2005)

Your avatar suggests "LACKSBALLS" 33, so grow some before you claim you work for the City of Champions. You'd be surprised how close we really are LACK-A-BALLS.


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## laxball33 (Mar 23, 2004)

poopoo, or should I call you MC Gusto? Laxball33 is my username, an avatar is the weak little picture with the cb4 guy you have next to your name. Next time you open your man pleaser know what you are talking about. It isn't a claim either and I don't care how "close we really are" you probably work with me for all I know and just want to talk trash about the department anonymously.


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

*popo,*

*Keep the personal stuff to your PM's!*


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

There are about 185 Police Departments that are NON-CS. About 1/3 of all Local PO's in Mass are NON-CS.

Regardless of civil service status or the Weak Chief, Strong Chief bit. Chiefs and Officers alike, If they wanna fire your ass or not, they will. Regardless of CS. Granted you can always appeal, but that can be 18 months to 3 years before its final. Thats a LONG time to be out of work. And even if they rule in your favor, life will suck going back. You'll just become a target for other crap down the road. 

The best way to stay on the radar screen as a "friendly blip" would be to use the theory the penguins used in the movie Madagascar, "Just smile and wave boys, just smile and wave."


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