# Shooting articles not well received.



## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

I recently wrote/updated a few articles: one on a fatal flaw of the 1911, one on the failure of Police handgun training, and one that asked the question: has your handgun training set you up to be killed. I posted two of them on a few sites, and to put it mildly, they were not received with thunderous applause























But what is, is what is. And not liking it won't change it.

IMHO, the info has practical value for those who may need to use a handgun in self defense.

And that thinking got me to make a web search for sites, the members of which are not just shooters, but shooters who have or carry a gun for the specific purpose of self defense, as the info would be most relevant to them.

In searching CCW sites, this site came up in the Google search.

So here I am today. That it is a police site, is OK with me.

..........

You may find it of interest to check out the articles which are up near the top of the main page on my site.

There also is lots of FREE information, articles, papers, studies, and stats on: Close Quarters Self Defense & Point Shooting on the site.

Included are the FBI papers on Handgun Wounding Factors and Effectiveness, and the 10 mm Pistol, plus articles and info on CAR, FAS, P&S, QK, our Fight or Flight response, and other self defense subjects such as Target Focus Fighting.

Many of the papers and articles are from the original sources (gun trainers and gun professionals), or approved by them as written. Some are by me.

Also included are the US Army's: Combat Training With Pistols M9 And M11 - FM 3-23.35 (2003), The US Marine Corps Pistol Marksmanship Manual (11/2003), and a digest of The US Army's fast, unaimed, and accurate rifle shooting method - Rifle quick Kill - TT 23-71-1.

You are welcome to stop bye and help yourself to the info and articles.

..........

Lastly, I have written about and support Lou Chiodo's: Target Focus Shooting - He was the driving force who brought this form of Point Shooting to the California Highway Patrol.

I also wrote and had published a book review of Mike Conti's: Police Pistolcraft. He approved of the review as written.

I'm on the side of developing and putting into practice shooting methods and means that are practical and can work to the advantage of the good guys/gals, improve shooting effectiveness, and reduce Police casualty rates.

So don't shoot me. OK?


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

I once did a book report about the neurons in the brain but that doesn't make me an electrician.

Just sayin...


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

> I also wrote and had published a book review of Mike Conti's: Police Pistolcraft.


I was lucky enough to have been trained personally by Lt. Conti in several different courses, his courses of instruction are always outstanding!

But what is the point of your post?

Are you looking for people to review and comment on your works? Or are you looking for unconditional love? Sticking your neck out means that sometimes you get your head chopped off. There are few fields jammed with as many egotistical personalities as firearms training. It seems like every other guy claims to be next incarnation of Jesus Christ with the "method" that's going to guide bullets to your target like a tomahawk missile. And there are many people who believe that making any changes to training is tantamount to heresy. It's a tough row to hoe! I'm not surprised at the lack of enthusiasm, but just remember that you can't please_ all _of the people _all _of the time.

You also failed to list any law enforcement/military credentials here , which can be important to as skeptical an audience as police officers.


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## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

Thanks for your comments KJ,

When it comes to firearms and methods, I like to stick to the evidence of what does or doesn't work, and empirical facts to support what is said.

The fact is that traditional methods suck as far as accuracy goes. The SOP 9, which studied thousands of police combat cases, makes that point. 

The facts that something is done, and done badly for 100 years or so, does not make it good, and reflects poorly on the trainers and those in charge, who have not stood up for those who go in harms way and demand change. To me that is bizarre.

But there is hope.

The CHP's move to Target Focus Shooting AKA the Applegate Shooting says that change is on the way, as does Mike Conti's statements about traditional methods and ways. Also, read Lou Chiodo"s interview with Paladin that's linked to on my site. Ditto for the Rand report via the article on Police handgun training.

And then there is Walter J. Dorfner's paper on what considered to be the next step in survival shooting, and what I call P&S. Walter was the long time lead firearms instructor for the VSP, and I understand that the range at the State training facility is named after him. A digest of Walter's paper is on my site. I wrote it, and he approved of it. The method he considered to be the next step in survival shooting, was not taught formally at the academy, but he said that he introduced new cadets to it. Walter is now deceased.

The method he ascribed to, was known and used as far back as 1835. In the early 1900's, the Chinese military used it. (2 bad because of the design flaw in the 1911, the US Military came out against it in 1912. And as such squelched it's use as a possible life saver in CQ cituations where the good guy/gal couldn't see or have time to use the sights. Geeze, that was almost 100 years ago now.)

I was told to use it when shooting my grease gun from the hip by a WWII Sgt when I was in Germany in 54/55.

As to who I am, check out my bio info if you are interested.

You don't have to believe me, I don't expect you 2. 

Just read the articles by the scientists and cops and gun professionals about CQB behaviors and CQB shooting on my site, and watch the videos linked to on my site, and then you decide what has the best possibility of being practically applied in a typical CQ armed encounter.

..........

Finally, if the safety and protection of Officers and members of the public is of prime importance, then Officers should be trained in simple and practical COMBAT shooting: 

1. which can be learned in less than two hours, and with shooting fewer than 100 rounds of ammunition, and 

2. which can be reproduced in periods of stress and with high marksmanship levels at close quarters distances. 

The reason being that if an Officer is going to be shot and/or killed, in all probability, per combat studies, it will be at a distance of around 10 feet or less.

Some Point Shooting methods meet that requirement, Traditional Sight Shooting does not. It has brought us the miss rate in armed encounter of 80+ %, which means that 4 out of every 5 bullets fired will miss the target and go somewhere else. That rate has been common knowledge for 20+++ years.

Sorry for the book, and thanks again for your comments.


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

I still don't understand what I've read.

I take it your 75 years old and may have walked away from a comfortable home?

What Bio?


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## MARINECOP (Dec 23, 2003)

???


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## Penguin (Dec 1, 2008)

I think the site he is referring to is this one ->AIMED Point Shooting or P&S For Self Defense and as to the validity of his argument, I lack the experience to take a stance either way.


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## justanotherparatrooper (Aug 27, 2006)

If youre pushin a book, just say so.The site welcomes paying sponsors, just shoot admin a pm


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## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

The Army and Marine Combat Pistol manuals can be downloaded from the site as PDF files. Help yourself to them and all the articles and info on the site. 

The info on rifle QK and all the stuff that's in the book are on the site as articles. 

Ditto for the software. It's old DOS based stuff that still runs good, but only in a smaller window with Vista. With XP it's OK. Also you need a printer with a parallel port or you will have to use a workaround if you plan to do printing, such as DOS2SUB, or print to a text file, etc.

FYI, the FBI paper on handgun wounding effectiveness is not freely given out to the public. I had to make a FOIA request and take it up thru an administrative hearing to get it. And that took a yr or two as I remember. 

The banners (links) I display on my site are done by me and without any conditions as I think the sites are worthwhile.

I don't do gun modifications or training. If someone can't figure out how to do what's described, then they shouldn't do it.

I also know that web site admins are the boss and it's their site, and I appreciate that.

Hope this answers your comment.


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## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

To those who have said welcome and/or expressed an interest in reading the info on the site, Thank You.

Here is a link to an article I just put up whose title is: Force Science Tests Show That Even Inexperienced Shooters Are Fast & Deadly Accurate Using Point Shooting. If you are a LEO or have a handgun for self defense, and are not familiar with the test results, could be worth your while to take a look at it.

www.pointshooting.com/psfirst.htm


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## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

I ain't pushiing the book. The articles and videos on the site are newer and more than it contains. Take what you want.

As to not knowing about guns and weapon systems, I've shot a snub nose, 22's, ring mounted 50 cal MG, 30 caliber MG, grease gun, M1 carbine, M1 Garand, and a bunch of different pistols, even tossed a live hand grenade and shot a 3.5" Bazooka.

My focus is not on harware, just how to point and shoot hand guns fast, accurately, and automatically.

















Pretty squared away GI don't you think.

Check out my gun test info with videos showing test results and shooting.


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## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

USMCMP5811 said:


> So you're pushing this .................... "Spray and Pray" method ...................................................................................? :-k P:


As to using the index finger along the side of the gun for aiming each and every shot, and using the middle finger to pull the trigger, which I call AIMED Point Shooting or P&S, and which is effective at close quarters:

1. The US Military manual on the 1911 that came out in 1912, cautioned against using it:

..."(3) The trigger should be pulled with the forefinger. If the trigger is pulled with the second finger, the forefinger extending along the side of the receiver is apt to press against the projecting pin of the slide stop and cause a jam when the slide recoils."

Now, by cautioning against its use, the manual "officially" recognized that P&S did exist and that it was in use.

2. The following is the URL to an article that talks about the use of P&S by the Chinese military in the early 1900's when shooting the C 96:
http://www.iar-arms.com/mausereview1.htm

3. P&S was used in duels as far back as 1835. Here is a link to info on that: http://www.pointshooting.com/1835.htm

4. And P&S was used in the late 1800's in gunfights: Here is a link to info on that: http://www.pointshooting.com/revolver.htm
5. I was told by a WWII Sgt to use P&S when shooting my grease gun from the hip.

6. Walter J. Dorfner, the long time lead firearms instructor for the VSP, developed and experimented on its use. Walter felt it was going to be the next step in the evolution of survival shooting. He wrote a paper on it, and I made a digest of it which we both had published. The method was not part of the official curriculum at the academy, but Walter introduced it to recruits. Walter has since retired, and is now deceased.

Here is a link to the digest: http://www.pointshooting.com/pands.htm

P&S is natural, instinctive, fast, accurate, requires little cognitive thinking, and it is not dependant on fine motor skills and being able to focus on the sights as is the case with Sight Shooting. P&S also requires no special body index, or stiff arm, or Isso grip, or some practiced "Zen" like ability to make hits. All you need to do is grab your gun and point-n-pull, point-n-pull.

P&S also provides the firer with an automatic and correct sight picture.

Now, it is quite understandable that some to many do not know about P&S. That is probably because of the US Army cautioned against its use with the 1911.

The 1911 was the standard issue sidearm of the US Military from 1911 to 1985, so and as such, the P&S method was not used for 70+ years by the military and Police. And the 1911 is still carried by some forces and Police.

The reason for cautioning against the use of P&S, is that if the slide stop pin is depressed when the 1911 is fired, the 1911 can jam.

It is a mystery to me, why a known and effective CQ shooting option was denied to the members of the US Military to accommodate a weapon for over 70 years, instead of making a minor change in the design of the slide stop to accommodate those who go in harms way for us.

Common sense says that the consequence of suppressing the use of an effective CQ shooting method during 70+years, would be great numbers of US wounded and dead.

Also, modern science and recent studies like the SOP 9, the RAND report, and the Force Science shooting tests show that traditional shooting methods don't work in most all CQ combat situations, so unless an effective method of CQ shooting can be employed, only luck and happenstance are left to save the day.


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## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

You get both correct sight alignment and sight placement automatically with P&S.

That is because the sights are normally in correct alignment and in parallel with the barrel.

So, when the index finger is extended along the side of a gun, the index finger, barrel, and the sights will be in parallel, with the sights in correct alignment.

And since we can point automatically and accurately at things, the gun barrel will be AIMED at anything pointed at.

It's brain dead simple, can be learned with little or no training, and once learned you don't forget it. As to trigger control, I just point-n-pull it. And the grip used is a very strong 4 fingered grip, not your weak 3 fingered 'sissy" MT grip.  

As to using the sights, the Army says that at night and at < 15 feet (which is the distance per the stats, wherein 90% of officers are killed in gunfights), you should use a two handed Isso. And that can be learned with little if any training.

Per the SOP 9: From Sept 1854 to Dec 1979, 254 officers died from wounds received in an armed encounter. The shooting distance in 90% of those cases was less than 15 feet. To me that means if you are going to be shot and or killed in a gunfight, it will happen at < 15 feet. And most all gunfights occur at < 21 feet.

Also, per the NYPD SOP 9, in a review of around 200 cases, they were unable to establish a link between range performance and on the street performance.

Sight Shooting which they were taught, was not used in most all of 5000+ cases studied.

Going back to the 1911 design flaw, I just put together a chronology of P&S. It has been used since 1804 AIMED Point Shooting or P&S Chronology It contains a bunch of references to its use, and several cautions against it use, all of which are found in US military manuals on how to use the 1911.

The 1911 was adopted by the US Military in 1911, and was the standard-issue side arm from 1911 to 1985.










IMHO, the 1911 has a design flaw, because its design excludes the use of the index finger along the side of the 1911 for aiming which is done with P&S. As such, P&S was squelched from 1912 to 1985.

Suppressing or prohibiting the use of a known and effective shooting method for use in CQ life threat situations, to accommodate a weapon, rather than making a minor modification to a weapon to accommodate those who go in harms way, makes absolutely no sense.

Further, once established as dogma, institutionalized practices and behaviors can be almost insurmountable obstacles to change, and particularly in strict heirarchial organizations which deal with life and death matters.

Additionally, you can expect that those who were taught, and now teach those traditional methods can be expected to defend them. And they can be expected to slam any upstart who questions the established methods (Sight Shooting), and even if it has been proven by scientific investigation and studies and environmental conditions, to be UNABLE TO BE USED in those situations where there is the greatest likelyhood of being shot and/or killed.

And their associates can be expected out of fellowship, to do the same.

Are there exceptions, sure, but they should be few and far between for those of us who are mere mortals, and for the average joe home defender type.

If you are SWAT, or a SEAL or some superior operator type, and train as they do, I trust that you are good to go.

Here is a link to more info on the design flaw of the 1911, http://www.pointshooting.com/1911.htm


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## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

Sorry for the possible dup post.

Please delete one of them.

Thank you.

I think the second one was better, but keep which ever one you think addresses the situation the best.

Thanks.


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## Penguin (Dec 1, 2008)

Ok 5shot, I am a complete noob and have little practical handgun experience but I do have a couple of questions.

1. Wouldn't I tend to pull the gun to the right by dropping down to the 2nd finger?
2. The gun would need to sit off center of my hand in this grip, what does this do for me?
3. Would this be consistent for multiple shots?


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## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

Penguin said:


> Ok 5shot, I am a complete noob and have little practical handgun experience but I do have a couple of questions.
> 
> 1. Wouldn't I tend to pull the gun to the right by dropping down to the 2nd finger?
> 2. The gun would need to sit off center of my hand in this grip, what does this do for me?
> 3. Would this be consistent for multiple shots?


1. No. The gun is held in the strong and level shooting platform made up of your thumb, the web of your hand, and your index finger. You do not have to keep your thumb from pressing against the gun, nor do you have to keep your index finger aloof from it as with the standard marksmanship grip that uses only 3 fingers to grip the gun. You can squeeze the beegeebers out of it and all you will do is increase the strength of your grip.

Also with a traditional grip, in combat it is said that you will grip the gun in a death like grip. As such, you will squeeze the gun using your thumb and middle finger. And as the middle finger is lower down in you hand than the thumb, the squeeze pressure will torque the gun down and around to the left and your shots will go down and left.

..........

The following is from an article on my site on the grip: AIMED Point Shooting or P&S

The P&S grip is a natural four+ finger grip that works along with how your body works, and particularly so in high stress situations.

It is very easy to apply, and can be maintained with relative ease, as basically all you do is just grab onto your gun.

The gun is held in the natural, strong, and level shooting platform made up of your thumb, the web of your hand, and your index finger.

The ring and little fingers also assist in gripping the gun. Their knuckles, where they meet the hand, are not fixed and can roll forward to add tenacity to the grip.

The middle finger, which can be flexed and extended independently, is used to pull the trigger. Its base also adds to the grip.

And the index finger, when extended along the side of the gun, helps to naturally "lock up" the wrist, strengthen the grip, and improve recoil control.

The thumb and index finger ARE NOT aloof from the gun. they are key elements to the strength of the grip.

If you wish, you can squeeze the begeebers out of the gun using the natural pincer made up of your index finger and opposing thumb. And all an increase in pressure will do, is strengthen your grip on the gun.

As such, the P&S grip is a very strong 4+ finger grip.

The P&S grip can be maintained even when the gun is jumping and bucking in your hand with rapid firing. With it, recoil will be dampened considerably.

With the index finger along the side of the gun, you can point fast, naturally and accurately for each shot made.

Just point-n-pull, point-n-pull......

Here is a picture of the grip followed by some pics snipped from a video.

































And when used in conjunction with a "wrist lock" grip, elbow smashes to the left or right can be made, as well as forward punches.


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## 5shot (May 9, 2009)

*Re: Sight Shooting in CQB???*

I was going to start a new thread with the following, but this seems to be a good place for it.

I'm looking for pics - films - videos of Sight Shooting + other shooting methods being used effectively in real close quarters gunfights.

I have added a page to my site which will have links to them. Here's the URL: http//:AIMED Point Shooting or P&S For Self Defense

You should be able to see hundreds to thousands of pics and videos of Sight Shooting, since Sight Shooting has been taught for 100+ years; and film and videos have been around for at least 50 of those years. 

And as there are million and millions of handgun owners in the U.S. of A., there is a giant pool of possibilities to draw from, plus there are thousands of handgun trainers.

Even the NRA can participate as they offer handgun training via NRA certified handgun instructors, and as I understand the situation, Sight Shooting is the main shooting method taught. 

Now realistically, I don't except much if any response as I have been involved in the area of close quarters self defense for 10+ years, I have yet to run across even one pic or video of Sight Shooting used effectively in a real close quarters gunfight. I have a patent for a handgun aiming aid that was patented back in 2000, so you can count me as more than just an interested bystander in regards to handgun self defense use. 

My only aim  is to determine/use the method/s that provides the best chance of aiming and shooting accurately at close quarters in a real life threat close quarters situation, becasue it is in CQ situations where the likely hood of your being shot and/or killed is the greatest.

..........

Per NYPD statistics, 75% of gunfights occur at less than 20 feet, and if you are going to be shot and killed, there is an 81% chance that it will be at less than 6 feet, and a 90% chance that it will be at less than 15 feet.

The only savings grace is that the mis rate in armed encounters is more than 80%. That means that for every five bullets fired at a target, four+ go somewhere else. So, unless you are having a very unlucky day, chances are you will not be in a gunfight, and if you are, you will survive.

..........

So, I would appreciate it if you or anyone could provide me with URL's to place on mynew page of Sight Shooting and/or other shooting methods, being used effectively in real close quarters gunfights.

I will check them out, and if they appear to be factual and fair as to their presentation, I will add them to the top portion of the page. 

Rejects will be added at the bottom of the page if appropriate for viewing by the general public. 

Please send them to ps (at) pointshooting.com 

I also would appreciate being sent URL's to Pics - Videos - Films that show alternate shooting methods, such as FAS, QK, CAR, P&S, ..., that also show them to be effective in close quarters gunfight situations. 

I will add them as links below those showing Sight Shooting being used effectively. 

The method being used does not have to finely defined. For example, there are two pics on the new page of alternate methods being used.

In one, Jack Ruby is using P&S to shoot and kill Oswald. A close examination of the photos discloses the he truly is using P&S. In the second photo, it is obvious that a drugstore guard is using a modified two handed isso grip to dispatch a robber. 

Would be nice to know that the shooting method you plan to use to defend your life and your loved ones, has actually been used in close quarters combat. Trust but verify makes sense.

Just saying something is so, doesn't make it so, now-a-days in the age of the electron.


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