# Anaheim OIS. must watch.



## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

First, Do you want tinnitus? because that's how you get tinnitus!
Second, Try hard not to do this.
Third, 76 rounds from a moving platform at a moving target.
Fourth, Alright lets hear it, good or bad, justified or not what is your take?






A man who was reported to be acting erratically and hallucinating was shot and wounded by Anaheim police Saturday during a slow-speed pursuit through residential streets, authorities said.

Relatives of Eliuth Penaloza Nava, 50, called police at about 9:45 a.m. to the 500 block of South West Street, Anaheim Police Sgt. Shane Carringer said. They said the Anaheim man was armed with a knife and a gun and "sitting in a parked vehicle possibly on drugs and hallucinating."

Nava brandished a handgun and fled in his vehicle when officers tried to make contact with him, brandishing a gun, Carringer said.

"A slow speed pursuit occurred on the surrounding residential streets and during that pursuit, an officer-involved shooting occurred," he said.

The suspect returned to the 500 block of South West Street "where officers were able to remove him from the vehicle and it was discovered he sustained gunshot wounds as a result of the officer-involved shooting," Carringer said.

Officers administered first aid to the suspect before Anaheim firefighters arrived and took him to UCI Medical Center in Orange, where he was pronounced dead, the sergeant said.

A BB gun resembling a handgun was recovered at the scene, Carringer said.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

On a side note, the probationary officer doing most of the shooting in this video was just fired by their department, related to this incident.


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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

Curious, Wondering if these officers had just come back from the Middle East ?

Video reminds me of combat footage. Not that I've ever been in that kind of rolling firefight but a lot of the stuff posted on YouTube looks similar.


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## Joel98 (Mar 2, 2011)

LA Copper said:


> On a side note, the probationary officer doing most of the shooting in this video was just fired by their department, related to this incident.


LA Copper,

So he was fired because of this incident?

And what are your thoughts on this shooting?


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## Joel98 (Mar 2, 2011)

It looked like the passenger officer had a couple stripes, so he was a corporal. Was this an FTO and trainee?


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## visible25 (Feb 7, 2012)

“Alright he’s gone”

*mag dumps 9 rounds into him*

Jokes aside, this was rough. I have no problem with the rounds fired once the vehicle is stopped. But the 60+ rounds before don’t seem solid. I’m no LEO in this area but I can’t say for sure I’d fire off that many rounds at someone in a vehicle moving away from me just for brandishing it.


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

Just imagine some poor kid catching a round in the bean half a town away.


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## TheSnowman (Aug 29, 2017)

You’re accountable for every bullet you fire. Last thing I want is one of my random shots missing and hitting some kid watching tv in his living room.
It doesn’t seem smart to be randomly shooting out the window like that at a fleeing vehicle. Isn’t there a law that says you can’t shoot at fleeing suspects?


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## Goose (Dec 1, 2004)

TheSnowman said:


> Isn't there a law that says you can't shoot at fleeing suspects?


To the contrary...look up Tennessee v. Garner.


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## TacEntry (Nov 29, 2006)

Probationary - not good, likely cut bait for.one of two reasons: 
First is the many, many rounds fired.while rolling down the street- so we know where they all went? That looks like a highly populated area.
Second is likely policy violations related to either shooting at or from moving vehicles. As a probationer not a good spot.
Also curious on the context- they comment that the suspects Dad is rolling up on the scene, so there is a whole lot more to this....


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## Joel98 (Mar 2, 2011)

TheSnowman said:


> You're accountable for every bullet you fire. Last thing I want is one of my random shots missing and hitting some kid watching tv in his living room.
> It doesn't seem smart to be randomly shooting out the window like that at a fleeing vehicle. Isn't there a law that says you can't shoot at fleeing suspects?


No.

Are you a cop?


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

Joel98 said:


> LA Copper,
> So he was fired because of this incident? And what are your thoughts on this shooting?


Yes, he was fired because of this incident and in my opinion, rightfully so. He was on probation and the partner was senior, although I don't know for sure if he was his actual Field Training Officer.

In my opinion, this was totally out of control. 76 rounds shot at a car with one suspect who brandished a gun while driving, which he never fired (because it was not real, it was a BB gun). If someone were to fire, it should have been the passenger officer while the driver drove the car.

We had a somewhat similar incident last year with two gang members in a stolen car at 0230 hours. The passenger suspect leaned out with a shotgun and fired several rounds at the pursuing black and white. A probationer was driving and a senior officer passenger. The driver officer did not take her gun out and fire back, she just drove the car. The passenger officer leaned out with her handgun and fired back with several controlled rounds, striking the car several times bringing the car to a stop.


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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

The problem with probation is you have absolutely no recourse. Not sure what it's like on the West Coast but here if you get canned before your one year is up there's no help from civil service or the Union.

Be curious to see what kind of training they received. Honestly couldn't tell anything by the video other than the driver was shooting through the windshield and the passenger was hanging out the other side with a rifle.

Does Department policy allow you to return fire if somebody brandishes or points a weapon at you ? And if they flee in a vehicle does that constitute as a deadly weapon ?

Are there cases where this has been done in the past ?

I can think of a couple cases where this sort of thing happened ( granted it was a few years ago ) vehicles were lit up and it was good all day.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

Pahp,

In this case, the suspect never fired at the officers. The driver officer should have driven the car while his partner fired, if he had to. The driver officer fired like a mad man at a guy who never fired a round at them. Don't forget, we as officers are responsible for every round we fire. In this case, the officer just kept firing like he was in military combat and not on neighborhood streets, all while driving in a pursuit. That's definitely not how we train. Under extreme circumstances that could be amended but this was not that type of circumstance.

Everyone at my agency who I've watched this with have all said the same thing; "What the heck was that?!"


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## CCCSD (Jul 30, 2017)

I blame John Wick...


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

CCCSD said:


> I blame John Wick...


Justified all day long!


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## CCCSD (Jul 30, 2017)

Raylon Jennings.


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## AB7 (Feb 12, 2019)

In considering this video, I would go back to elementary use-of-force training.

Is there an imminent threat of serious bodily injury or death as a result of someone brandishing a firearm and fleeing? 

Answer to that would be no.

Now depending on the offender, he could be a fleeing felon who just committed a double murder. If that was the case, a reasonable officer’s perception would be that this person is capable of using lethal force and will do so. 

Again... that ain’t what happened here.

No ill will towards the rookie, but the less cowboys we have representing the profession the better. Rules are there for reason.


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

I am ALL for aggressive tactics. There is a time where shooting through the windshield may be justified, and even necessary. Even while driving. This definitely wasn't it. Zero reason for the driver to be driving and shooting when he has another officer in the car, especially one with a rifle. I want to applaud their aggression, but they pushed unnecessarily, and filled this guy in pretty good....when it wasn't clear he posed an immediate threat. 

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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

I wager these guys were on the younger side, and attended some GOOD training on their own dime. Had they been pursuing the San Bernardino terrorists, they would have been spot on. Unfortunately, they only have permemant hearing loss and no job to show for it. Touching off an AR inside a car is loud....an argument for suppressors on patrol rifles (still hearing damage in a car) and keeping active (electronic) hearing protection within reach of your rifle.



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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

LA Copper said:


> Pahp,
> 
> In this case, the suspect never fired at the officers. The driver officer should have driven the car while his partner fired, if he had to. The driver officer fired like a mad man at a guy who never fired a round at them. Don't forget, we as officers are responsible for every round we fire. In this case, the officer just kept firing like he was in military combat and not on neighborhood streets, all while driving in a pursuit. That's definitely not how we train. Under extreme circumstances that could be amended but this was not that type of circumstance.
> 
> Everyone at my agency who I've watched this with have all said the same thing; "What the heck was that?!"


One case that came to mind ( think it was late 80s early 90s ) kid stole an MBTA bus and was driving it through the city smashing into everything.

Finally caught up with him at Andrew square and they put something like a 100+ rounds through the windshield.

Of course there was some heavy criticism , but in the end I believe it was deemed a good shoot. Granted there are some big differences in these cases. Two things they do have in common is fleeing suspect in a motor vehicle and heavy amount of firepower applied to said vehicle.

I showed it to a couple of cops as well and asked if they've been trained to shoot through a windshield ? Negative was the response plus the rolling one sided gun battle didn't sit well with them either. And definitely agree any training I've ever attended both LE and civilian is your responsible for every round that goes down range.

Which makes me wonder if these guys just came back from the Middle East ? Maybe military and police training got blurred into one ?

Just hate to see people lose their jobs.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

The scenario you mention with the bus back in the 80s sounds like something we have around the world currently, terrorist acts where they use large vehicles to intentionally run people down trying to kill as many people as possible. In this type of case, firing at the vehicle would be approved. Or even if the driver was drunk or crazy and was unintentionally running people down, it would most likely still be ok.

Regarding the Anaheim case, this type of thing happens fairly frequently where the bad guy(s) wave a gun out the window without firing during a vehicle pursuit and they are not shot at. What's unusual is where they actually fire at the pursuing police, kinda like what just happened out here in the LA area a few days ago where the passenger suspect (who was a known murder suspect) leaned out the window during the pursuit (on live TV) and fired multiple rounds at the pursuing officers but they did not fire back in this case, although once they stopped, it was a gunfight.

The reason the officer was fired in this case is because he was still on probation and he significantly violated his department's shooting policy. The senior officer wasn't fired, he was given suspension days. 

The folks on my department aren't trained to shoot through the patrol car's windshield either but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be prudent under the right circumstance. This particular incident wasn't that, especially for the driver officer when he had a partner with a rifle and the bad guy never fired his gun at them. Not to mention he fired a ton of rounds without assessing.


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## MPD703 (Sep 25, 2004)

I think there are a few things to take away form this: 1) just because it is legal doesn't mean it is a good idea - the job always reserves the right to crucify you if you violate police, 2) while it is hard to crucify a hero - this situation was not one of those cases, 3) and the big one, especially for cops in CA this is just the type of incident that the fine folks in Sacramento will point to justify the use of force bill that is pending. I am sure we can all come up with scenarios where shooting from a car in a pursuit could be a good idea and completely legal and in policy, I just don't see it here. The driver was on probation so any violation could have gotten him bounced - the fact that he was fired after this isn't surprising. As for the FTO/Lead Officer, I would think part of the job is taking charge and controlling the trainee. I would also think that there would be an expectation that you would know/follow policy or be able to explain why you had to operate outside of policy.


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

THIS is a job that needed these 2 cowboys and their tactics. This asshole needed to be pressed on and shot to death. Once it turns into a gunfight, you need rifles. And all your friends with rifles. 





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## TacEntry (Nov 29, 2006)

Hush said:


> THIS is a job that needed these 2 cowboys and their tactics. This asshole needed to be pressed on and shot to death. Once it turns into a gunfight, you need rifles. And all your friends with rifles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now that was pretty rough. Just shows how quickly something can go south. No clue where that was but at least one cop was shott. Hope he survived.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

It's in San Diego


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

CCCSD said:


> Raylon Jennings.


Rayland Jennings never sprayed and prayed buddy!

Rookie starts to spray rounds @ 1:08 and Senior Officer tells him to not fire for first time @ 2:09............
That's a heck of a long time to be operating a cruiser, spraying rounds through the windshield into the community, (at someone who hasn't fired a round) and reloading on the steering wheel. 
Glad I wasn't in that car.


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## CCCSD (Jul 30, 2017)

I meant Raylon would have handled it. Quick.


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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

Hush said:


> THIS is a job that needed these 2 cowboys and their tactics. This asshole needed to be pressed on and shot to death. Once it turns into a gunfight, you need rifles. And all your friends with rifles.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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