# Managing Family Arguments...



## ScoopEmUp (Feb 10, 2011)

This is a touchy question, I know, but it deserves discussion. Many people these days call 911 about every little thing. A child gets spanked or they see something they don't understand or they hear something out of the ordinary. In most cases, these are harmless incidents. 

One that comes up frequently is the issue of the "family argument". People argue all the time. And arguments aren't always quiet. If it is summer, these arguments are more likely to be heard by a nosy neighbor that involves police needlessly. Or the neighbor could be vindictive looking for some way to get at a neighbor because of prior disagreements. That private 911 call works wonders.

Finding much on the web about how police manage such calls that involve family arguments that have no evidence of domestic violence is difficult. Say two brothers yelling at each other. A wife and husband at odds over money issues. Two siblings arguing over how to take care of their aging parent.

Reason I mention these is that they are situations I have experienced and in all cases, there was no violence, only words.

Poking around, I found this. The guy doesn't write well, but it worries me that police could be much too heavy handed when involved in an argument and just make it much much worse. So, I wanted to ask members how they approach such non-violent family arguments that result in a 911 call. 

Thanks. The posts below is taken from justanswers.com.

"I am a defendant against the government(Framingham Police Dpt. MA) Do I have the right to request a copy of the 911 call (And how to do it) in which prompted to my arrest, and also a copy of the patroler's car recordings (If possible, and how to do it). Another question; how can I maximize and how to request, loss and damages over; use of brutality (Medical records on the incident shows low back pains and wrist pains, a 2 months after and I have scars on one of my wrists from the handcuffs, and a finger and wrists which still has not stopped hurting) Discriminatory Insults (You brazilian, You should go back to your country) Although Officer never new my current statuts in this country. A woman calls over a family dispute (non threatning; her hasband had her wallet and her camera) and 5 male cops shows up, no female. Harresment (She was so bother but their excessive overlook of her legs 'she was wearing a miniskirt' she slid one of the pillows and placed over her legs to avoid more visual harresment) they invaded and searched the house without a court order and involving no threats or harmful situation to any of the parties."

This was followed by

"Well it was supposed to be a family dispute. But the case was converted to their side when they saw that my wife was not harmed in any way nor she cooperate with them because we solved our "legal martial" differences before the officers arrival. In other words; if she is willing to come before the judge and explain this situation, and also state that, not according to the actual report; she did speak to the officers through the door, before I agreed (that they could speak to my wife as much as she wanted as long as it was with the door shut) due to the circumstances in which i needed to step out go to the hospital. And when I did, They threw me against the wall from inside my house out, and arrested me without reading my mirranda warnings or without any reason to arrest me. Even after my wife (its in the report) explained that nothing happened and there was no harm in anyones part. They still continue and pursuit Disorderdly conduct, disturbing the peace, and resisting arrest. Something I never did, I dont have a record for such actions. Its iminant that they wanted to make a case out of nothing. Perhaps my Color would give them this ambition? I dont want to sue them, I want to walk out of this charges dismissed, destroyed and with loss and damages for the 2 jobs I lost because of this inconvinience and all other. I dont want to go through suing. I want justice done and to be left as that. (MGL 209a, Section 6):"No law officer investigating an incident of domestic violence shall threaten, suggest, or otherwise indicate the arrest of all parties for the purpose of discouraging requests for law enforcement intervention by any party. " MGL Chapter 263: Section 1A (I was never fingerprinted).MGL Chapter 263: Section 3 (False imprisonment). Under the constitution of mass; Article 1 I am given the right to defend my wellbeing. I need to go to the hospital to consult my health, and that rigtht was taken from me. Mass Const. Article I. All men are born free and equal, and have certain natural, essential, and unalienable rights; among which may be reckoned the right of enjoying and defending their lives and liberties; that of acquiring, possessing, and protecting property; in fine, that of seeking and obtaining their safety and happiness. w Questions - I am a defendant against the government(Framingham Police Dpt. - JustAnswer http://www.justanswer.com/criminal-law/3on3j-defendant-against-government-framingham-police-dpt.html#ixzz1EQMEp5SF"


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## Hush (Feb 1, 2009)

Hmm, you should probably check the turret tapes :thumbs_up:


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## ScoopEmUp (Feb 10, 2011)

Hush said:


> Hmm, you should probably check the turret tapes :thumbs_up:


Well, that may be part of it, and that is a question this person asked on justanswer.com.

Note, I am not here to debate any responses or get off topic. I did that last time, and I apologize.

So, from here on in, just looking for answers and will only respond if I have a question to one of your answers.

Thank you for your responses.


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## jettsixx (Dec 10, 2005)

Are you trying to ask what we would do in the case of a verbal argument only? (note the term "verbal domestic" drives me nuts). Last time I checked an argument was not a police matter. I and most of the officers I know would advise all parties of their rights per 209A then leave. We may advise one of the parties to stay somewhere else for the night.


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

We are mendated to take a number and write a report on every verbal arguement. This has been a protocol for quite a fee years now. That said, not every arguement that is reported as verbal only, ends up being just that. If you go to these calls and actually believe everything that youbare told by the agressor or the victim for that matter, then youbare either lazy or you are new. I am neither of those. Look at it from this point of view, if you know something happened and you chose to ignore it, you will likely feel like a total ass if an jour later you are going back there to secure a scene of a homicide. Is an hour of writing an arrest report worth losing your job and home worth it to you? It doesn't to me. If I go to one of those calls and it is more then what was originally reported, I suggest that you act accordingly. We are all adults here and most of us have been on the job long enough to make a right choice.


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## ScoopEmUp (Feb 10, 2011)

Thanks guys. The answers are great and quite useful. 

Absolutely, believing everything said when you arrive is not likely sensible. However, most people wouldn't want to air their dirty laundry either. It is likely they didn't realize how loud they were getting.

But say, like the post I included implies, you get to a house based on a 911 call. When you get there, the house is totally quiet. There is a well lit front door. Do you just knock at the front door or ring the doorbell and ask the people if they are OK? Do you demand to go into the house? Can you forcibly enter without permission because the 911 call would constitute exigent circumstances? Basically, what is procedure?

Most of the time, I would think, there is no victim and aggressor. And I am talking of cases like the one cited. When these cops arrived there was no argument in progress and there were no signs that anyone was hurt? No blood. No bruises. No crying or yelling for help. Etc. What should policy have dictated?


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## Guest (Feb 19, 2011)

I'm just curious... If you are LE, don't you know what your department's policy is?


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## ScoopEmUp (Feb 10, 2011)

right.as.rain said:


> I'm just curious... If you are LE, don't you know what your department's policy is?


I do. But I do not know yours. And the cited incident implies a policy that could lead to escalation unnecessarily and that is very different from any I would expect.

Then again, a department could have a policy of always separating the parties to keep the argument from escalating. Taking one party into custody for example.

But, of course, a citizen that is at his own residence that knows that nothing violent transpired, may be quite disturbed by being removed. That would lead to escalation and potential violence when none occurred prior to the arrival of police.

In this instance, if you believe the story, the officers involved wanted to separate the parties, and the man involved didn't go quietly.


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

ScoopEmUp said:


> Thanks guys. The answers are great and quite useful.
> 
> Absolutely, believing everything said when you arrive is not likely sensible. However, most people wouldn't want to air their dirty laundry either. It is likely they didn't realize how loud they were getting.
> 
> ...


What I fail to understand is your apparent absolute lack of knowledge of Criminal Law and Criminal Procedure. I was trying to give you the benefit of doubt after your week long "Suspension" if you will, but what you have just posted above, is clearly showing me that you are not LE and you have some other agenda.

Every department out there has a clear cut policy on how certain calls are going to be handled. What we all know just through being in this business, is that every situation is different and things change at every call at the moment's notice. There isn't one specific way to handle every situation, but you ARE a Cop arfen't you? So, in other words, you know what I am talking about, right?

---------- Post added at 14:58 ---------- Previous post was at 14:56 ----------



> Then again, a department could have a policy of always separating the parties to keep the argument from escalating.


That is Domestic Violence Investigatrion 101. What the heck did they teach you in your academy?


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## niteowl1970 (Jul 7, 2009)

I wonder what media outlet or college this "member" works for. He's OBVIOUSLY not a LEO and if he is then the academy and FTO failed.


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## ScoopEmUp (Feb 10, 2011)

I am not saying that I believe the entire story of the individual that posted it. I do believe, because of the specifics of the post, that parts of it are truth and parts are exaggerations or lies.

What I do believe is that bad policy could lead to this problem, so I wanted to discuss possible approaches and departmental policies.

And I also believe that what really happened here is that the police arrived, the argument was over, and the officers involved did not like being denied access to the residence. I believe that they wanted more than they were getting from the resident and wanted to talk to the female in isolation. Don't get me wrong, it could have been a good call, but maybe not.

My thought here is though, that it would be easy to confuse agitation and aggravation on the man's part when police arrived. He and his wife do have the right to stay in their home, so it surprises me that this led to arrest.

I am also disturbed by the charges. Disorderly does not apply at one's home except in truly extraordinary circumstances. Disturbing the Peace does not really apply if the man was in his home unless he was making a raucous all the neighbors could hear. And the resisting arrest sounds like a normal reaction a citizen might have should an officer be following a policy that led to his removal despite no evidence of injury.

It is a very tough question, as I stated. On the one hand, an officer may want to be cautious about the safety of the parties involved, so separating them may seem prudent in all circumstances. Say, for example, the officer had been to another residence in the past in which everything seemed quiet and over, and then some time later, another 911 call comes in and one of the individuals is severely injured. He may feel he could have prevented it. 

I feel that when domestic violence is reported or a 911 call comes from the house itself requesting assistance, that is very different. Then, the policy should be to either arrest or detain the folks immediately upon arrival. But the simple argument is always a precursor to such events. So, when it is only a family argument you are checking out, how do you approach it and what is your policy?

I hope I am clear here. Just discussion. Not argument on my part. Thanks.


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## Sam1974 (Apr 8, 2009)

I love how IT completely ignored 263s question.

ANYWHO>.... what media outlet do you work for?


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

I have been at numerous Domestic calls where the victim is so petrified of their abuser, that their simple presence causes them to shrink back and not utter a word. Not every Doemestic Battery will cause obvious outward injuries. Victim and assailant are separated when ever possible so that the intimidation factor is somewhat removed. You can very well be Disorderly/Distrubing if the dwellking is a multi-apartment type in nature. The hour of the day would also play a role in that. What you read in that post is quite one-sided. He is after all a defendant according to him, in a Domestic Battery case.

If I had a dollar for every time the victim racanted in court, I'd say screw retirement and retire on that money.

I even had a victim trying to say nothing happened when I personally saw her boyfriend knock her teeth out in spite that I was in a fully marked cruiser, driving by him. He simply did not give a shit who saw this.

You are asking some very loaded questions here. I do not understand how someone who is allegedly in law enforcement, has no answers to questions such as these.

I have posted a reply to your original question conserning how our policy and the law dictates us to handle Domestic situations. I have also asked, I believe, for you to tell me how your department wants these situations handled. I have not yet seen you answer that question, or is this a one way street with you?

Please enlighten us all how your department handles these calls, and more importantly how you handle them.

On a side note, believe me, if all is quiet in the household when I arrive, and the call only specified yelling and screaming in the past, I may not be so inclined to barge my way in to the apartment if there is nothing else that catches my eye, or gives me a strange feeling.


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## ScoopEmUp (Feb 10, 2011)

Sam1974 said:


> I love how IT completely ignored 263s question.
> 
> ANYWHO>.... what media outlet do you work for?


I am ignoring the posts not relevant to the discussion because I did not in the past and I apparently offended some people when a debate ensued. One of them was 263.

I apologize for my ignorant comments at the time and if they offended anyone.

If you want to have a separate discussion about other issues, please feel free to start a new thread. I don't want to go there for fear of starting another volatile discussion that leads to termination of the thread or my suspension.

That is the last I will say of this within this thread so, if possible, we keep on topic.

Remember, no matter who posts on this board, anything you post is public. So, honestly, it doesn't matter what you think of me or who I am. The only thing that matters is whether you wish to discuss the topic. Thanks.

Thanks


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## niteowl1970 (Jul 7, 2009)

ScoopEmUp said:


> I am ignoring the posts not relevant to the discussion because I did not in the past and I apparently offended some people when a debate ensued. One of them was 263.


I think he's offended because he thinks you're full of shit.


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## 263FPD (Oct 29, 2004)

ScoopEmUp said:


> I am ignoring the posts not relevant to the discussion because I did not in the past and I apparently offended some people when a debate ensued. One of them was 263.
> 
> I apologize for my ignorant comments at the time and if they offended anyone.
> 
> ...


Once again, I gave you a very honest and direct answer to the question you posted. You simply can not give me the same curtecy and answer my question.

I will direct this one to the Mods, ScoopEmUp posted a question, and got his answer. Time to close this thread because this conversation is going nowhere. ScoopEmUp wants to get his questions answered but gives no such favor in return.

Thank you for playing.

---------- Post added at 15:44 ---------- Previous post was at 15:43 ----------

My posts weren't relevant? ScoopEmUp, you are so full of shit.


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## Sam1974 (Apr 8, 2009)

ScoopEmUp said:


> I am ignoring the posts not relevant to the discussion because I did not in the past and I apparently offended some people when a debate ensued. One of them was 263.
> 
> I apologize for my ignorant comments at the time and if they offended anyone.
> 
> ...


263 asked you a direct question, why won't you answer it? It IS on topic so there is NO excuse as to WHY you won't answer it.

and i QUOTE:

"Please enlighten us all how your department handles these calls, and more importantly how you handle them."

you just keep quoting the website instead of answering his question. I know why... WHACKER ALERT!!!!!!!!! WHACKER ALERT!!!!!!!!!!!


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## cc3915 (Mar 26, 2004)

263FPD said:


> I will direct this one to the Mods, ScoopEmUp posted a question, and got his answer. Time to close this thread because this conversation is going nowhere. ScoopEmUp wants to get his questions answered but gives no such favor in return.


I concur. Thread closed.


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