# Trainee Cry babies strike again!



## Guest

All I can say is, "Wah, Wah, Wahhhhh!"
They went to the hospital because they were lazy before going into the SPA. They can't physically handle it and blame everyone, but themselves. The herald is hurting for readership and prints anything they can sensationalize.

*Trooper academy sends 43 cadets to the hospital*
By *Michele McPhee and Maggie Mulvihill*/ Herald Exclusive
Friday, November 25, 2005 - Updated: 03:29 AM EST

*A*t least 43 State Police Academy cadets have been hospitalized due to illness or injury since the 78th troop started up in June, adding to concerns about oversight at the New Braintree facility, which has been rocked by hazing abuses. 
Word of the hospitalization toll, obtained by the Herald under a public records request, comes as the head of a commission examining the academy expressed worry that top instructors won't work there due to its remote location. 
"The commission is looking at ways to provide incentives to officers to convince them to become instructors at the facility," said the chairman, Kevin Burke, former Essex County District Attorney. "It has to do with retaining the best and brightest. That is not to say there aren't good people out there, but how do you make sure you keep the best people out there." 
Some 256 recruits began at the academy class on June 27, a number whittled by 82, to 174, as the cadets continued their arduous 26-week program, said State Police spokeswoman Sharon Costine. She refused to provide a list of the injuries and illnesses to the cadets, who were hospitalized despite the presence of an academy infirmary. 
"Although the number of recruits at our academy that have obtained medical treatments may appear high, we tend to have more injuries during the beginning time period of the recruit class," Costine said. "We are very conservative and perhaps overly cautious when dealing with any potential medical issues such as heat-related issues, colds, muscle strains and other sport-related injuries." 
But one former recruit, who quit after two weeks, said cadets were forced to run after "drinking tons of water" and not being allowed to use the bathroom. "There was a lot of things going on in there that could cause unnecessary injuries," said the recruit, who asked that his name be withheld. He said he was interviewed by investigators assigned to the State Police Internal Affairs Section about the alleged abuses. 
Christopher Montembault, 31, of New Bedford, who left the program in July due to a sprained knee, said two men in his platoon were hospitalized for dehydration, leading to a keen focus on drinking water. "They tell us to hydrate all the time," he said. "They started forced hydration. They make you drink a whole bottle of water every hour. It's not the best thing. You do it if you want to stay in." 
The State Police Academy training practices are being probed after the Herald reported in September that cadets complained of abuse, including cases where recruits had their heads shoved into toilets and were forced to wear dirty underwear on their heads. 
Three instructors, including the commandant, Lt. Richard Lane, were transferred. "There have been no other disciplinary actions," Costine said. "There is an ongoing investigation." 
State Police Colonel Thomas G. Robbins created the seven-member panel to review training practices at the academy, telling the Herald that he was "overcome and upset" about the abuse allegations. 
Burke said his panel has met four times and gathered thousands of pages of documents. He said the academy's manual bans conduct that could be considered hazing and includes a reporting requirement for those who witness it. 
He said a report won't be ready until February. He would not elaborate on what incentives might attract more instructors to New Braintree. The panel will not recommend moving the facility out of New Braintree, which was originally set to be a prison. 
"The money invested in that location is just too great to overcome," Burke said.


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## Irish Wampanoag

Can you say the 79 th will be a more kinder gentler politically correct academy due to a few ass state trooper instructors who are so power hungry extension of their penis types, who train recruits for war rather then law enforcement. MSP can thank themselves for once having the best police academy to a future of political correctness training. :t:


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## bbelichick

Irish Wampanoag said:


> Can you say the 79 th will be a more kinder gentler politically correct academy due to a few ass state trooper instructors who are so power hungry extension of their penis types, who train recruits for war rather then law enforcement. MSP can thank themselves for once having the best police academy to a future of political correctness training. :t:


Give me a break. One guy stepped over the line. He is gone. The rest of you who never attended New Braintree only know what the Herald tells you and what a bunch of no sack, cry baby, loser, quitting p*ssies tells you. The Academy was being over cautious and sends everyone to the Hospital and now it's a story? And some complete bag complains they made him drink water?

They make them drink water? Oh, Lord help us.I heard tomorrow the Herald will break a story that the DI's actualy make guys run and a secret informant told them that Recruits are forced to get up early and go outside when it's cold.


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## OciferpeteHPD3500

Whats this in turning it the grounds into a prison?


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## fjmas1976

bbelichick said:


> Give me a break. One guy stepped over the line. He is gone. The rest of you who never attended New Braintree only know what the Herald tells you and what a bunch of no sack, cry baby, loser, quitting p*ssies tells you. The Academy was being over cautious and sends everyone to the Hospital and now it's a story? And some complete bag complains they made him drink water?
> 
> They make them drink water? Oh, Lord help us.I heard tomorrow the Herald will break a story that the DI's actualy make guys run and a secret informant told them that Recruits are forced to get up early and go outside when it's cold.


LMAO.......good thing these guys were never at Parris Island. I think we all remember the ritual of a full canteen before hitting the rack and what would happen if you didn't finish it. These p-ssies fill a spot and then quit because they can't take it. What's the point? Don't takle the test, don't accept the job......everyone knows what the MSP Academy entails. You would think the BI would weed out people like that....... ](*,)


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## Guest

I'm sorry, but if 43 people were hospitalized (admitted), that's a huge red flag that something is seriously wrong.


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## JoninNH

"Platoon, Drink _Water_!" and my entire platoon drank water. Being the unfortunate one to finish my canteen first, what did I get in return? Another canteen of water!! Yes, I wanted to puke my guts out. No, I never wanted to file a complaint against my Army Drill Sergeant. It wasn't punishment, it was a hot day and the DS wanted to ensure we were all properly hydrated for the days activity.



> who are so power hungry extension of their penis types, who train recruits for war rather then law enforcement.


Awww come on now! I would have to say, without ever attending, that the MSP Academy would be the best-of-the-best in recruit training that I've ever seen. The entire point of the yelling, screaming, etc. at basic training? To instill discipline. The reason at the Academy? To instill discipline.

I don't think 43 people sent to the hospital is indicative of a major crisis. If the Academy sends to the hospital everyone who's problem cannot be solved with an ace bandage and an icepack to the hospital, or every sprain that needs to be checked out, in the name of being cautious. We had nearly twenty recruits in my Army Basic Training company who had to leave due to medical problems... improper preperation for training.

We had the canteen before lights out too, fjmas1976... none of us ever failed to finish the canteen, thank God.



> But one former recruit, who quit after two weeks, said cadets were forced to run after "drinking tons of water" and not being allowed to use the bathroom. "There was a lot of things going on in there that could cause unnecessary injuries," said the recruit, who asked that his name be withheld. He said he was interviewed by investigators assigned to the State Police Internal Affairs Section about the alleged abuses.


:L: Oh my God! Made to RUN!? At a police academy?! After drinking WATER?! Oh my GOD!! How horrible. You drink water to stay hydrated, period. Not being able to use the bathroom? I'm sure the DI's have set times/procedures for head calls, I'm sure no one pee'd their pants. Interviewed by IA? What a fucking joke. :up_yours:


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## JoninNH

OciferpeteHPD3500 said:


> Whats this in turning it the grounds into a prison?


 The site was originally considered for a prison. There is no intentions of turning the academy grounds into a correctional facility.


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## bbelichick

Delta784 said:


> I'm sorry, but if 43 people were hospitalized (admitted), that's a huge red flag that something is seriously wrong.


Sure, I will tell you what is wrong. Former MSP Colonel Reed Hillman decided he would be "innovative" and scrap the Cooper Standards for the freaking Obstacle Course that any loser could pass. Well, guess what? Many losers DO pass, and when they get into the SPA they are in shock, it's actually HARD!! They get all kinds of injuries, or fake them because they were unprepared. That's it.

With the old Cooper Standards, bag of sh*t would fail the 1.5 miles, the bodyfat, the pushups, the situps. The ones who made it were for the most part in decent shape. Then the mentally weak were weeded out. Now they have to weed out the mental non-hackers AND the physical bags.

By the way, it never says that they were "admitted", that is just the people that were brought to the Hospital to get checked out. Much of it is stuff you would see your local Physician about, twisted knees and ankes and stuff like that. Because of the isolation situation up there, they have to go to the Hospital for minor injuries.


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## Guest

JoninNH said:


> Awww come on now! I would have to say, without ever attending, that the MSP Academy would be the best-of-the-best in recruit training that I've ever seen. The entire point of the yelling, screaming, etc. at basic training? To instill discipline. The reason at the Academy? To instill discipline.


Hyper-militaristic training is counter-productive to producing good cops. When I was a shitbag E-1 at Fort Benning, the bouncing-quarter bullshit was necessary, because I was expected to follow orders, even those that very well might get me killed, instantly. Military recruits need to be unthinking automatons, but if someone can explain to me how getting your bed thrown out a window is going to make you a good cop, I'd love to hear the rationale.

A good cop needs to think on his feet, and make split-second decisions without the fear of someone screaming in his ear at the slightest provocation. I've seen way too many new troopers that were either extensions of their trainers (drill sergeant wanna-be's), or too timid to make a decision. Neither one is good.



JoninNH said:


> I don't think 43 people sent to the hospital is indicative of a major crisis. If the Academy sends to the hospital everyone who's problem cannot be solved with an ace bandage and an icepack to the hospital, or every sprain that needs to be checked out, in the name of being cautious. We had nearly twenty recruits in my Army Basic Training company who had to leave due to medical problems... improper preperation for training.


43 people _hospitalized_ is a major crisis. Being sent to the hospital is one thing, being admitted is another thing entirely. That means a physician decided the person was in need of constant medical supervision. That's serious.


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## no$.10

Delta784 said:


> Hyper-militaristic training is counter-productive to producing good cops. "
> 
> Well, I can't say as I agree. You must remember that the twenty-somethings being admitted now are the ones who grew up "_PC_". That is to say, _everybody_ got an award for participating, _everybody_ makes a team, etc. They are wimps, quite honestly.
> 
> I'll admit that even I had never been called a name or harrassed until I entered (an) academy. However, in the last umpteen years in LE, I sure have. *Alot*. And worse names by people sitting in traffic at an accident scene, or drunks who are kicking out the windows of the cruiser.
> 
> So, if you take these lightweights, and don't put them under pressure, you will not know how they will react in public. Gonna hit someone for calling you a ******? Get your fingers warmed up, you'll be writing some reports. Gonna cry when someone calls you an ugly MF because they had to wait for fifteen minutes in traffic? That'll be great for esprit de corps.
> 
> You have to learn how to block out the BS, accomplish you task, and stay safe. Can you think of any other way to replicate the enviroment of a hostile mob on a warm Saturday night, as you are cuffing the local "hero" drug dealer who gives local kids candy for watching his car? These things happen. It is a tough job, and they need tough people. If these recruits cannot perform under extreme pressure, it is best that they "go away" now. Before they get themselves hurt. Reality time.


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## Guest

no$.10 said:


> Delta784 said:
> 
> 
> 
> Can you think of any other way to replicate the enviroment of a hostile mob on a warm Saturday night, as you are cuffing the local "hero" drug dealer who gives local kids candy for watching his car? These things happen. It is a tough job, and they need tough people. If these recruits cannot perform under extreme pressure, it is best that they "go away" now. Before they get themselves hurt. Reality time.
> 
> 
> 
> Did I say that a police academy should be a recreation of kindergarten? No, I don't believe I did. The first week of my academy, they came in screaming, tipping desks over, etc. The second Monday, the academy commander spoke to us, basically saying they wanted to weed out the shitheads, but from that day forward, they were going to focus on making us good cops. He also said that if we tried to take advantage of them, they'd drop the hammer (we did, and he did), but he reminded us we were being prepared to be cops, not soldiers.
> 
> Guess what? Almost 18 years later, I have a drawer full of commendations, not a single IA complaint sustained, and I'm consistently in the top 10 for arrests in my PD. All without ever getting the contents of my locker thrown out a window.
Click to expand...


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## JoninNH

I don't see how the getting a locker thrown out a window got into this. But, when I had the contents dumped on my bay floor and my locker turned upside down, it was because I f--ked up and left it unlocked. When a fellow trainee had his bedding torn off the bunk and thrown on the floor, it was because he f--ked up while making it. The lesson learned: Attention to detail. In the barracks room it gets your shit rearranged, on the street it could get you killed. Everything is done for a reason, I doubt Delta that a locker would be ejected from a window period because it would mean the loss of the locker but if it were done, it would probably be because the trainee screwed up.

I'm glad you have a shadow box full of medals and the rat squad hasn't come sniffing around, and that you are trying to say that your an exemplary officer/trooper having never been treated like shit at an academy, but is the reverse true? Do you feel you would have made a less effective officer/trooper if you HAD been treated like shit in the academy? Would having a wall locker thrown out the window have had a detrimental effect on your career? I doubt it.

For some, they absolutely NEED that slap in the face of a yelling angry DI in their face. Others it may not be as necessary, but I highly recommend a STRICT paramilitary environment in law enforcement training: strict physically (PT, PT and MORE PT) and strict emotionally, for everyone.



> I'll admit that even I had never been called a name or harassed until I entered (an) academy. However, in the last umpteen years in LE, I sure have. *A lot*. And worse names by people sitting in traffic at an accident scene, or drunks who are kicking out the windows of the cruiser.
> 
> So, if you take these lightweights, and don't put them under pressure, you will not know how they will react in public. Gonna hit someone for calling you a ******? Get your fingers warmed up, you'll be writing some reports. Gonna cry when someone calls you an ugly MF because they had to wait for fifteen minutes in traffic? That'll be great for esprit de corps.


No.$ 10 says it all in that paragraph right there.

I was an arrogant son of a bitch who had a lot of growing up to do before I got off that bus at Basic Training. I guarantee that arrogance was gone inside of day three. I credit those 10 weeks of basic training, and subsequently AIT, for getting me in the best shape of my life, teaching me about teamwork, camaraderie, respect and discipline. I don't think I could have learned any of that from a "gentleman's course" or a college campus.



> But one former recruit, who quit after two weeks, said cadets were forced to run after "drinking tons of water" and not being allowed to use the bathroom.


If we assume he was 78RTT, that would be, what the first or second week of July? Mighty hot back then... I wonder why water is so important? Huh. Gee.


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## Guest

JoninNH said:


> I'm glad you have a shadow box full of medals and the rat squad hasn't come sniffing around, and that you are trying to say that your an exemplary officer/trooper having never been treated like shit at an academy, but is the reverse true? Do you feel you would have made a less effective officer/trooper if you HAD been treated like shit in the academy? Would having a wall locker thrown out the window have had a detrimental effect on your career? I doubt it.


For me, probably not, because I realize that it's pointless bullshit. However, as I mentioned before, I've seen way too many new troopers that have a huge chip on their shoulders when dealing with the public, and even other cops. I can't see any other reason for it than the way they were treated in the academy.

If someone really _needs _their locker thrown out a window, or someone screaming in their face all day, they probably shouldn't be a cop to begin with.


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## USMCTrooper

Delta784 said:


> If someone really _needs _their locker thrown out a window, or someone screaming in their face all day, they probably shouldn't be a cop to begin with.


You validate our point. We do not always get to choose with 100% certainty who gets in. People sue, whine to their politcal cronies, drop dimes and get thrust upon us. THESE are the ones who "shouldn't be a cop to begin with". How do you weed out the non-hackers? See above..

Throw out my locker, mess up my stuff, tie my crap in a knot? 
Besides probably deserving it because I did not pay attention to detail.....it allows me to experience shock, frustration, anger, contempt, disdain _in a training environment_ so when someone hits me with their car, punches me in a fight, or does something so dumb they define logic and it gets someone hurt....I will know how to handle my emotions because I've been there. 
....and if you think screaming in your face all day has no value, maybe you have never spent 3 or more hours, on the stand, under cross from an animated, hyper-active, belligerent, wild-eyed, foaming at the lips defense lawyer who is trying to crack your story, make you look foolish or worse, in front of 12 people who probably don't like you to begin with. I have.

We both have 18 yrs under our belts. I am glad I got tough training. This job can be tough. Unfortunately we never know when and for how long.


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## topcop14

While I am often critical of the SUPER TROOPERS, but I must say they probably have one of the toughest and best academes going. But I now fear that it will start to resemble the day camp they call Boylston Academy. Were no one washes out and if you don't want to get sprayed you don't. If you don't want to run then don't. If you still don't know how to handcuff someone at the DT test out, don't worry you will still graduate.

Police Training is becoming a complete joke!


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## j809

topcop14 said:


> While I am often critical of the SUPER TROOPERS, but I must say they probably have one of the toughest and best academes going. But I now fear that it will start to resemble the day camp they call Boylston Academy. Were no one washes out and if you don't want to get sprayed you don't. If you don't want to run then don't. If you still don't know how to handcuff someone at the DT test out, don't worry you will still graduate.
> 
> Police Training is becoming a complete joke!


I seriously doubt it. I think the academy will still be tough and maybe tougher. Just more careful on some things. I pitty the fools going to the 79th abd thinking it will be easy.


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## Guest

USMCTrooper said:


> You validate our point. We do not always get to choose with 100% certainty who gets in. People sue, whine to their politcal cronies, drop dimes and get thrust upon us. THESE are the ones who "shouldn't be a cop to begin with". How do you weed out the non-hackers? See above..


You're apparently not doing a very good job, because I've seen just as many hack troopers as I have cops on city & town PD's. This is Massachusetts, hacks should be our state symbol.



USMCTrooper said:


> Throw out my locker, mess up my stuff, tie my crap in a knot?
> Besides probably deserving it because I did not pay attention to detail.....it allows me to experience shock, frustration, anger, contempt, disdain _in a training environment_ so when someone hits me with their car, punches me in a fight, or does something so dumb they define logic and it gets someone hurt....I will know how to handle my emotions because I've been there.


Gee...I've had all the above happen to me, and more, and I've handled myself just fine.



USMCTrooper said:


> ....and if you think screaming in your face all day has no value, maybe you have never spent 3 or more hours, on the stand, under cross from an animated, hyper-active, belligerent, wild-eyed, foaming at the lips defense lawyer who is trying to crack your story, make you look foolish or worse, in front of 12 people who probably don't like you to begin with. I have.


I've been on the stand plenty of times, I'd wager probably more than you. Some buffoonish lawyer screaming like a spurned woman does not intimidate me. On the contrary, it highly amuses me.

I got screamed at by some of the best at Fort Benning, the usual effect was that it pissed-off most people, and made the others terrified to make a decision. Neither attitude is good for a cop.

If being screamed at produces such great cops, can you please explain the chip on the shoulder that many new troopers have? I've witnessed them being so rude to citizens that I actually wanted to apologize for them, and sometimes their attitudes towards other cops leaves a lot to be desired. Why is it I've never seen this attitude with any other police agency?



USMCTrooper said:


> We both have 18 yrs under our belts. I am glad I got tough training. This job can be tough. Unfortunately we never know when and for how long.


Tough training need not include fraternity antics like trashing someone's locker, or pushing their face into a toilet. For instance, my academy was the first in the state to use role-playing scenarios, which is now part of the standard MPTC curriculum. It's infinitely more valuable to see how a recruit does when trying to apply classroom knowledge in a real situation, or better yet, have them attempt to handcuff an actively resisting person, than it is to have them make a correct hospital corner on a bunk.


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## JoninNH

> Tough training need not include fraternity antics like trashing someone's locker, or pushing their face into a toilet. For instance, my academy was the first in the state to use role-playing scenarios, which is now part of the standard MPTC curriculum. It's infinitely more valuable to see how a recruit does when trying to apply classroom knowledge in a real situation, or better yet, have them attempt to handcuff an actively resisting person, than it is to have them make a correct hospital corner on a bunk.


That's misleading. The isolated toilet incident cost a trooper his job and is not indicitive of the enviroment at the Academy.

First in the state? Wonderful. The SPA has role-playing scenarios too, as does the MPTC as you state yourself, so what's your point besides remindign us that all MA academies now have role-playing?

So how is having a recruit make a correct hospital corner detrimental to the training of a recruit? Obviously, he's going to go thru DT and handcuffing scenarios. But where's the harm of adding discipline and order to the academy?

The academy is paramilitary in nature and challenges recruits to develop self-discipline, perform under stressful situations, and focus on teamwork. The academy is run in a paramilitary delivery style, with students wearing uniforms and adhering to a high level of discipline and order.


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## SinePari

For those of you who don't know, Delta has a framed poster of "The Runaway" on his wall, and he hasn't put the bottle down since he got his "thanks for your application, however" letter from the MSP 18 years ago...

J/K

:BNANA:


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## mpdcam

Here we go again. Another bunch of troopers telling us how great the MSP academy is. Give me a break. There is no excuse for letting trainees dehydrate and get sent to the hospital for 2 to 3 days before returning. Then to return and get harassed because you had the balls to go to the hospital for treatment. What about not feeding everyone properly. If you were lucky enough to be at the front of the line you got plenty to eat. If you were at the rear, you got what was left, usually just the leftovers. Yeah thats great! 
You can hide behind the excuse "not being prepared for the academy", but face it, there were people injured that were extremely prepared. The MSP brought this whole s*#t storm on themselves. You reap what you sew.

Should there be some adjustements to the academy, definately. Should the municipal academy be toughened up, definately. It seems there are two extremes here and neither one is all that great. Meeting somewhere in the middle would create a much better environment for everyone, and maybe dispell this us vs. them thing with the state and the locals.


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## Guest

JoninNH said:


> First in the state? Wonderful. The SPA has role-playing scenarios too, as does the MPTC as you state yourself, so what's your point besides remindign us that all MA academies now have role-playing?


The role-playing was started by a municipal academy, then eventually adopted by the SPA and every other academy in the state.



JoninNH said:


> So how is having a recruit make a correct hospital corner detrimental to the training of a recruit? Obviously, he's going to go thru DT and handcuffing scenarios. But where's the harm of adding discipline and order to the academy?


Any well-run academy will have discipline and order. If we fucked-up, we got dropped for push-ups, had to run extra laps, etc. What we didn't have were DI wanna-be's screaming in our faces every minute. It's simply wasn't necessary.



JoninNH said:


> The academy is paramilitary in nature and challenges recruits to develop self-discipline, perform under stressful situations, and focus on teamwork. The academy is run in a paramilitary delivery style, with students wearing uniforms and adhering to a high level of discipline and order.


What was that tan outfit I had to wear, if it wasn't a uniform?


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## bbelichick

mpdcam said:


> Here we go again. Another bunch of troopers telling us how great the MSP academy is. Give me a break. There is no excuse for letting trainees dehydrate and get sent to the hospital for 2 to 3 days before returning. Then to return and get harassed because you had the balls to go to the hospital for treatment. What about not feeding everyone properly. If you were lucky enough to be at the front of the line you got plenty to eat. If you were at the rear, you got what was left, usually just the leftovers. Yeah thats great!


What the h*ll are you talking about? Hospital for days? Not getting enough food? That is a crock of BS.

Go ahead, make stuff, up. You can be like the loser cop from Florida that quit and went back to his PD. When they asked him why he quit, he told them "Some DI was messing with me, so I kicked his *ss and they booted me out for fighting."

Translation: "I am a p*ssy and I couldn't hack it but I don't want to admit it so i will lie" The guy's PD knew he was lying.

As far as new Troopers having a chip on their shoulders, MOST new cops appear to have chips on their shoulders, locals or State.

And the issue of how to treat the public, I have seen local guys do and say stuff I would never DREAM of doing. Let's face it, the MSP's IA Unit is much more invasive than any local departments. I have told some local guys about complaints that MSP IA investigates and they are floored that anyone would waste their time with such garbage. Troopers are scrutinized much more closely than local guys.


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## Irish Wampanoag

bbelichick said:


> Sure, I will tell you what is wrong. Former MSP Colonel Reed Hillman decided he would be "innovative" and scrap the Cooper Standards for the freaking Obstacle Course that any loser could pass. Well, guess what? Many losers DO pass, and when they get into the SPA they are in shock, it's actually HARD!! They get all kinds of injuries, or fake them because they were unprepared. That's it.
> 
> With the old Cooper Standards, bag of sh*t would fail the 1.5 miles, the bodyfat, the pushups, the situps. The ones who made it were for the most part in decent shape. Then the mentally weak were weeded out. Now they have to weed out the mental non-hackers AND the physical bags.
> 
> I have to agree the Cooper test was the best. When I went through the SSPO (I am not comparing the SSPO to the Real State Police Academy by any means) in 1996 they had the Cooper test which eliminated some pansies who could not take the physical aspects of the academy.
> However flushing someones head down the toilet and putting underwear over a recruits head is not going to make that person more tolerant to someone yelling its going to make that officer more aggressive.


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## Guest

Who are the ones who complain? The quitters. When people tell everybody what a great opportunity they have and then quit, well, then they complain and make up excuses to save face.

How can I prevent heat illness?

When the heat index is high, take the following precautions:
Wear lightweight, light-colored, loose-fitting clothes.
Protect yourself from the sun by wearing a hat or using an umbrella.
Don't forget the sunscreen! 
*Drink plenty of water before starting an outdoor activity. * Drink extra water all day. Drink fewer beverages that contain caffeine (such as tea, coffee and cola) or alcohol.
Schedule vigorous outdoor activities for cooler times of the day--before 10 a.m. and after 6 p.m.
During an outdoor activity, take frequent breaks.* Drink water or other fluids every 15 to 20 minutes, even if you don't feel thirsty.* If you have clear, pale urine, you are probably drinking enough fluids.

Sound like the DIs were doing the right thing. Not being prepared physically before entering the SPA is the problem, not the training. The intense discipline and training just forces the quitters to see the facts, that they tried to skate. Posted "SPA: No Skating Allowed. DIs take notice".


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## Guest

MSP75 said:


> Who are the ones who complain? The quitters. When people tell everybody what a great opportunity they have and then quit, well, then they complain and make up excuses to save face.


I'm sure Timothy Shepard never complained.


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## MARINECOP

fjmas1976 said:


> LMAO.......good thing these guys were never at Parris Island. I think we all remember the ritual of a full canteen before hitting the rack and what would happen if you didn't finish it. ](*,)


I remember those days, "drink them canteens now, empty them empty canteens over your head now". "Splash". "Oh good, we just don't want to follow orders, get in my head now"!


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## Guest

bbelichick said:


> As far as new Troopers having a chip on their shoulders, MOST new cops appear to have chips on their shoulders, locals or State.


I can guarantee that none of the rookies I've had as an FTO will have a chip on their shoulder. Not that many have, to begin with.



bbelichick said:


> And the issue of how to treat the public, I have seen local guys do and say stuff I would never DREAM of doing. Let's face it, the MSP's IA Unit is much more invasive than any local departments. I have told some local guys about complaints that MSP IA investigates and they are floored that anyone would waste their time with such garbage. Troopers are scrutinized much more closely than local guys.


I'd never know that, having seem the MSP in operation. A couple of years ago, there was a huge brawl, including a stabbing, at Wollaston Beach, which resulted in sending almost everyone from my shift (including me, and my patrol area is nowhere near Wollaston Beach), as well as the MSP. Some of the troopers on-scene were so incredibly rude to the public (including potential witnesses to a stabbing) that I literally had my mouth hanging open. Your IA branch would have had a field day.


----------



## mpdcam

> What the h*ll are you talking about? Hospital for days? Not getting enough food? That is a crock of BS.


I do know what I am talking about. Sorry if you can't believe things like that happen.


----------



## JoninNH

I call bullshit on the not feeding the recruits for a couple of days.


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## bbelichick

mpdcam said:



> I do know what I am talking about. Sorry if you can't believe things like that happen.


No, frankly, you don't.

You never attended New Braintree, so by definition you are basing your crock stories on the rantings of dropouts. Food is NOT an issue at the SPA. You can eat as much as you want.

Here it is, in black and white: Those that quit are useless. If they wanted the Job, but coulddn't hack the Academy, they are the worst kind of losers...Quitters. Quitters don't belong in Law Enforcement. When the going gets tough, the fight is on, they will bail.


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## bbelichick

Delta784 said:


> I I'd never know that, having seem the MSP in operation. A couple of years ago, there was a huge brawl, including a stabbing, at Wollaston Beach, which resulted in sending almost everyone from my shift (including me, and my patrol area is nowhere near Wollaston Beach), as well as the MSP. Some of the troopers on-scene were so incredibly rude to the public (including potential witnesses to a stabbing) that I literally had my mouth hanging open. Your IA branch would have had a field day.


OK, so you saw a bunch of Troopers acting like jerks. This is a Job of 2500 people. I'm sure your PD has it's share of jerks, too.


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## nirtallica

mpdcam said:


> Here we go again. Another bunch of troopers telling us how great the MSP academy is. Give me a break. There is no excuse for letting trainees dehydrate and get sent to the hospital for 2 to 3 days before returning. Then to return and get harassed because you had the balls to go to the hospital for treatment. What about not feeding everyone properly. If you were lucky enough to be at the front of the line you got plenty to eat. If you were at the rear, you got what was left, usually just the leftovers. Yeah thats great!
> You can hide behind the excuse "not being prepared for the academy", but face it, there were people injured that were extremely prepared. The MSP brought this whole s*#t storm on themselves. You reap what you sew.
> 
> Should there be some adjustements to the academy, definately. Should the municipal academy be toughened up, definately. It seems there are two extremes here and neither one is all that great. Meeting somewhere in the middle would create a much better environment for everyone, and maybe dispell this us vs. them thing with the state and the locals.


I had some of the best food at the SPA. They have the food catered and I enjoyed every meal (except for the brick french toast). At the end, we were treated to a 5 course dinner that had carving stations, shrimp cocktail, beef tenderloin and other numerous foods. We were never deprived of food, water or liquids. In fact, Powerade was served at all meals and you could drink as much as needed. I ate alot of bananas and drank lots of Powerade for the potassium. I never had an issue with hydration or nutrition. Maybe you were one of the washouts. If you have never been through the RTT training program, I suggest you stop running your mouth or take the test and go through like 2200 other have that made it. Then, you can talk all the s**t that you want.


----------



## Guest

bbelichick said:


> I'm sure your PD has it's share of jerks, too.


As far as treating citizens like crap? As far as acting like arrogant a-holes to other cops? No, I can't say we do.

I'll insert my disclaimer here that I have many state trooper friends, but, by far, MSP has the highest a-hole ratio of any other law enforcement agency. If there's another reason for it, other then their academy training, I'd be very interested in hearing it.

Are they still teaching that city & town cops are "pieces of shit" out in New Braintree?


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## Pvt. Cowboy

Delta784 said:


> Are they still teaching that city & town cops are "pieces of shit" out in New Braintree?


:shock:


----------



## bbelichick

Delta784 said:


> As far as treating citizens like crap? As far as acting like arrogant a-holes to other cops? No, I can't say we do.
> 
> I'll insert my disclaimer here that I have many state trooper friends, but, by far, MSP has the highest a-hole ratio of any other law enforcement agency. If there's another reason for it, other then their academy training, I'd be very interested in hearing it.
> 
> Are they still teaching that city & town cops are "pieces of shit" out in New Braintree?


Wow, you must work for the best PD EVER! No jerks? What a Nirvana!

Give me a break. You are obviously full of crap, and any cop in the world would agree. Every job, let alone Police Departments that are staffed, by definition with type A control freaks has it's share of jerks.

As far as your last statement, I don't know where you get your information from, but it sounds like it is either a disgruntled quitter or an outright lie. I, along with 50-60% of people through there were locals and I have NEVER heard that said, EVER.

Check your sources. I'd be interested to hear where you heard that, and I would be happy to call that person a LIAR to his face.


----------



## j809

> The isolated toilet incident cost a trooper his job and is not indicitive of the enviroment at the Academy.


No it didn't, he's doing just fine in B-Troop, where he lives.


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## screamineagle

j809 said:


> No it didn't, he's doing just fine in B-Troop, where he lives.


He actually lives in c troops area.


----------



## Guest

bbelichick said:


> Wow, you must work for the best PD EVER! No jerks? What a Nirvana!


Try reading for comprehension. What I said was _As far as treating citizens like crap? As far as acting like arrogant a-holes to other cops? _In that regard, no, I've never seen it. Keep in mind I'm talking about the average citizen, not a suspect.



bbelichick said:


> Give me a break. You are obviously full of crap, and any cop in the world would agree. Every job, let alone Police Departments that are staffed, by definition with type A control freaks has it's share of jerks.


Congratulations, you just defined your department much better than I ever could have.



bbelichick said:


> As far as your last statement, I don't know where you get your information from, but it sounds like it is either a disgruntled quitter or an outright lie. I, along with 50-60% of people through there were locals and I have NEVER heard that said, EVER.


I've heard that from several trooper friends, none of whom has any reason to lie to me.



bbelichick said:


> Check your sources. I'd be interested to hear where you heard that, and I would be happy to call that person a LIAR to his face.


So, you know what is said during every academy class, by every instructor? Where did you get your crystal ball?


----------



## bbelichick

Delta784 said:


> Try reading for comprehension. What I said was _As far as treating citizens like crap? As far as acting like arrogant a-holes to other cops? _In that regard, no, I've never seen it. Keep in mind I'm talking about the average citizen, not a suspect.


I have worked with over 10+ PD's on a regular basis. On the whole, I would say that the local guys were shorter tempered and more rude to the general public.



> I've heard that from several trooper friends, none of whom has any reason to lie to me.
> 
> So, you know what is said during every academy class, by every instructor? Where did you get your crystal ball?


Well, I have ridden with or worked with members of every class to come out of New Braintree. That quote you related was never said. You are either making it up or your friends are full of it. I tend to think you are making it up.


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## Macop

Delta784 worte:
Hyper-militaristic training is counter-productive to producing good cops. When I was a shitbag E-1 at Fort Benning, the bouncing-quarter bullshit was necessary, because I was expected to follow orders, even those that very well might get me killed, instantly. Military recruits need to be unthinking automatons, but if someone can explain to me how getting your bed thrown out a window is going to make you a good cop, I'd love to hear the rationale.

A good cop needs to think on his feet, and make split-second decisions without the fear of someone screaming in his ear at the slightest provocation. I've seen way too many new troopers that were either extensions of their trainers (drill sergeant wanna-be's), or too timid to make a decision. Neither one is good.

As much as I believe in para-military training for police, I have to agree with Delta.


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## Macop

no$.10 Wrote
Well, I can't say as I agree. You must remember that the twenty-somethings being admitted now are the ones who grew up "_PC_". That is to say, _everybody_ got an award for participating, _everybody_ makes a team, etc. They are wimps, quite honestly.

I'll admit that even I had never been called a name or harrassed until I entered (an) academy. However, in the last umpteen years in LE, I sure have. *Alot*. And worse names by people sitting in traffic at an accident scene, or drunks who are kicking out the windows of the cruiser.

So, if you take these lightweights, and don't put them under pressure, you will not know how they will react in public. Gonna hit someone for calling you a ******? Get your fingers warmed up, you'll be writing some reports. Gonna cry when someone calls you an ugly MF because they had to wait for fifteen minutes in traffic? That'll be great for esprit de corps.

You have to learn how to block out the BS, accomplish you task, and stay safe. Can you think of any other way to replicate the enviroment of a hostile mob on a warm Saturday night, as you are cuffing the local "hero" drug dealer who gives local kids candy for watching his car? These things happen. It is a tough job, and they need tough people. If these recruits cannot perform under extreme pressure, it is best that they "go away" now. Before they get themselves hurt. Reality time.

This also makes sence, I guess a little of both makes it right. Maybe its not an issue of the para-military training, maybe its just a little too much.


----------



## no$.10

Delta784 worte:

"_A good cop needs to think on his feet, and make split-second decisions *without the fear of someone screaming in his ear *at the slightest provocation."_

They will scream in your ear. And they will spit on you. And they will call you horrid names, trainees need to learn how to execute their duties while all of this is going on.

"_I've seen way too many new troopers that were either extensions of their trainers (drill sergeant wanna-be's), or too timid to make a decision. Neither one is good."_

Delta, you have also stated that you have military training. Many new trainess do not. *That is the difference*. Many of these trainees have no idea what they are getting into when they show up for day one. They are shocked, scared, and sometimes they wash out. Having been taught their whole lives how to avoid responsibility, they seek to blame the establishment for their failures. Surely you have seen this trend as well with you arrests. Everyone has some excuse. It gets old.

If you were at a scene where Troopers were using foul language with people engaged in disorderly conduct, then I would suggest to you the concept of _*command presence*_. Yep, if saying the word "shit" is going to discombobulate someone just enough to make them think "Uh-oh, this guy's not gonna take any crap", then the Trooper has accomplished his task. Two AM at a bar fight is not time for "church talk" anyhow. There is a time and a place for everything, training and experience teaches you the when and where.


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## Eamonn Wright

Yeah, Delta784, none of your rookies have a chip, they just get shit-faced and involved in high speed pursuits, right?

Let me tell you something about no one on your PD having a chip; I lived in your city for 6 years, and I can't begin to tell you how many times I got the high hat from guys on your job. The blank stare, the old turn around and pretend the Trooper isn't there, all that bullshit. I drove by one of your guys on a detail on a side street one day 3 times, In a marked cruiser. I waved the first two times, and got the blank stare both times. The 3rd time I asked him what his problem was. He stammered a little and obviously felt like a jerk, which he should have. I never met the guy, and he was shitting on me. 

I'm calling bs on SP instructors telling recruits locals are pieces of shit, or whatever the hell your accusation was. I'm not buying that crap for one second, and no one here should either.


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## nirtallica

Delta784 said:


> Try reading for comprehension. What I said was _As far as treating citizens like crap? As far as acting like arrogant a-holes to other cops? _In that regard, no, I've never seen it. Keep in mind I'm talking about the average citizen, not a suspect.
> 
> Congratulations, you just defined your department much better than I ever could have.
> 
> I've heard that from several trooper friends, none of whom has any reason to lie to me.
> 
> So, you know what is said during every academy class, by every instructor? Where did you get your crystal ball?


Delta 784 you are just a bigf p%[email protected]*y PERIOD! Toughen up!


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## irish937

I think we've ALL worked with the big egos. I agree that it is a phase we ALL usually go through. If you haven't, then good for you, but I think your lying to yourself. Who cares what the patch on the sleeve says as long as it ends with "Police"?? "My agency is better than yours!" Why not, "My dad can beat up you dad?" The point is, when you need help, do you really care where the brother comes from as long as it's a brother? There are babies in EVERY class. Hence your 14 percenters. Some will slip through the cracks NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOUR TRAINING PROGRAM IS!!! Why do we need to keep hashing this OVER and OVER. A cop is a cop is a cop, good or bad. State or local, get over it and move on. Worry about doing your job and going home at the end of your shift. This is foolish.


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## Eamonn Wright

Amen, irish937.


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## Guest

no$.10 said:


> They will scream in your ear. And they will spit on you. And they will call you horrid names, trainees need to learn how to execute their duties while all of this is going on.


Recruits should expect such behavior from suspects, but not from the people who wear the uniform they hope to wear themselves. It's not that hard to understand....if you get treated like a pile of shit for 6 months by the people that are soon to be your colleagues, chances are you're going to have a similar attitude yourself.



no$.10 said:


> Delta, you have also stated that you have military training. Many new trainess do not. *That is the difference*. Many of these trainees have no idea what they are getting into when they show up for day one. They are shocked, scared, and sometimes they wash out. Having been taught their whole lives how to avoid responsibility, they seek to blame the establishment for their failures. Surely you have seen this trend as well with you arrests. Everyone has some excuse. It gets old.


I can accept that, but it doesn't explain the poor attitude I've seen with many new troopers, many of whom have a giant chip on their shoulders. Again, if there is another reason for it, other than the way they were treated at the academy, I'd be very interested to hear it.



no$.10 said:


> If you were at a scene where Troopers were using foul language with people engaged in disorderly conduct, then I would suggest to you the concept of _*command presence*_. Yep, if saying the word "shit" is going to discombobulate someone just enough to make them think "Uh-oh, this guy's not gonna take any crap", then the Trooper has accomplished his task.


Did I say that any troopers used foul language? No, I don't believe I did. Thet were just incredibly rude and dismissive to the public, _including potential witnesses._



no$.10 said:


> Two AM at a bar fight is not time for "church talk" anyhow. There is a time and a place for everything, training and experience teaches you the when and where.


No offense, but when do troopers go to bar fights, unless they're poaching city/town cop's calls?


----------



## Guest

nirtallica said:


> Delta 784 you are just a bigf p%[email protected]*y PERIOD! Toughen up!


Oh, I lie mortally wounded by your rapier wit. :roll:


----------



## Guest

Eamonn Wright said:


> Yeah, Delta784, none of your rookies have a chip, they just get shit-faced and involved in high speed pursuits, right?


As opposed to a certain MA State Trooper, out on medical leave, that robbed about a dozen pharmacies at gunpoint in MA and NH, using his MSP-issued service pistol, because he was addicted to Oxycontin?

Oh, and ask some old-timers on your job about a former state trooper that's now a homeless bum that hangs-out in Quincy. His initials are "B.H.". I've PC'ed him probably a dozen times, and he's performed all his bodily functions, at one time or another, in the back of a QPD cruiser.

Don't throw stones if you live in a glass house.



Eamonn Wright said:


> Let me tell you something about no one on your PD having a chip; I lived in your city for 6 years, and I can't begin to tell you how many times I got the high hat from guys on your job. The blank stare, the old turn around and pretend the Trooper isn't there, all that bullshit. I drove by one of your guys on a detail on a side street one day 3 times, In a marked cruiser. I waved the first two times, and got the blank stare both times. The 3rd time I asked him what his problem was. He stammered a little and obviously felt like a jerk, which he should have. I never met the guy, and he was shitting on me.


Did it ever occur to you that this was the result of prior poor treatment of you guys towards us? Let's cut through the bullshit, the MSP has a reputation for treating other LE agencies like crap, dating back many, many years. I will admit that things have improved dramatically in the last 5 or so years, but you guys still have a serious PR problem to overcome with city & town cops.



Eamonn Wright said:


> I'm calling bs on SP instructors telling recruits locals are pieces of shit, or whatever the hell your accusation was. I'm not buying that crap for one second, and no one here should either.


As I said.....do you know what was said at each class, by every instructor?


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## Se7en

I would say that in the demographics in which I work in, I may be more "short tempered" than the average trooper, but then again, I will encounter more people within a one year period than the average trooper will within ten years. Does that make me a better officer than a trooper, no, but I also know the average trooper couldn't hold my jockstrap, not that he would want to anyways. 
Now the troopers who were local police officers for a working city or town, I may have to take a step back, because I will agree that there academy training is far superior to the local pampered academies.


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## Guest

I promised myself awhile ago that I wouldn't engage in inter-agency sniping, but here I am, doing it again.

I don't think that hyper-militaristic training is conducive to producing good cops. If anyone disagrees, then we should agree to disagree. 

The End.


----------



## Eamonn Wright

Delta, your argument that your guys treated me the way the did because of "prior poor treatment" is more bullshit from you. There I was, waving to your guys, on numerous occasions, and getting shit on. Is that how you do things? Someone else offends you, so you take it out on everyone else who wears the SP uniform? Mighty mature behavior there, Delta. And here we all are, being led to believe by you that all of you guys are above such behavior. Now the truth comes out. Hypocrite.

Regarding your O.C. robbery reference, I have never denied that we have shitheads _and_ assholes on my job. You seem to be in denial about your own department's assholes and shitheads . Something first hand is pointed out to you, and your reaction? Blame the victim.


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## Crvtte65

Before believing or saying "red flag" etc I would like to see a listing of reasons of hospitalization _and_ if it was a pre-existing condition.

For all we know thirty went cause the cook used the same knife to chop the lettuce that he did with the chicken...


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## DevilDog1775

irish937 said:


> I think we've ALL worked with the big egos. I agree that it is a phase we ALL usually go through. If you haven't, then good for you, but I think your lying to yourself. Who cares what the patch on the sleeve says as long as it ends with "Police"?? "My agency is better than yours!" Why not, "My dad can beat up you dad?" The point is, when you need help, do you really care where the brother comes from as long as it's a brother? There are babies in EVERY class. Hence your 14 percenters. Some will slip through the cracks NO MATTER HOW GOOD YOUR TRAINING PROGRAM IS!!! Why do we need to keep hashing this OVER and OVER. A cop is a cop is a cop, good or bad. State or local, get over it and move on. Worry about doing your job and going home at the end of your shift. This is foolish.


:dito: I'll drink to that :t:


----------



## Guest

Eamonn Wright said:


> Delta, your argument that your guys treated me the way the did because of "prior poor treatment" is more bullshit from you.


You think so? You obviously haven't been on the job that long, if you honestly believe that.



Eamonn Wright said:


> There I was, waving to your guys, on numerous occasions, and getting shit on. Is that how you do things?


No, that's how YOU do things. Don't bitch to me that you're now reaping the results of your bretheren that went before you. Ask the trooper that had a pursuit into Quincy, where I personally captured the suspect, by myself, but the _Patriot Ledger_ reported the trooper captured the suspect after a lengthy foot pursuit, scaling an 8-foot fence. Funny how my handcuffs ended up on the guy. Ask that same trooper (who looks exactly like Private Pyle from _Full Metal Jacket_) why he wrote the sister of a Braintree cop, telling everyone "I don't fix tickets for locals". Ask the numerous troopers where I've stopped to assist them on a traffic stop, only to be given a dismissive wave of the hand.

Now, as I mentioned, things have gotten better in the last few years. About 7-8 years ago, I attended a training seminar on the Cape where then-Colonel Reed Hillman was the guest speaker. He admitted that relations between the MSP and city/town agencies sucked, and took responsibility for it. He promised he was going to do everything he could to improve that, and while he seems to have kept his word, you guys still have a serious PR problem with other police agencies. Deny it all you want, but it does exist.



Eamonn Wright said:


> Someone else offends you, so you take it out on everyone else who wears the SP uniform? Mighty mature behavior there, Delta. And here we all are, being led to believe by you that all of you guys are above such behavior. Now the truth comes out. Hypocrite.


I don't take it out on anyone. I still stop to assist any other cop I see on a stop, including an Environmental cop the other night. I also wave to anyone driving a vehicle with blue or red lights.



Eamonn Wright said:


> Regarding your O.C. robbery reference, I have never denied that we have shitheads _and_ assholes on my job. You seem to be in denial about your own department's assholes and shitheads . Something first hand is pointed out to you, and your reaction? Blame the victim.


The huge difference is that even the biggest asshole on my department would do anything to help out another cop. We could write a best-seller about the things we've done to make sure a brother/sister cop didn't get jammed-up or embarrassed. I don't think you can honestly say the same thing.


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## topcop14

CAN'T WE ALL GET ALONG :lol:


----------



## stubrie

Let's go through some known facts.....
T.Shepard died of dehydration, More than one person has been to the hospital "taking' more than one bag of fluid to hydrate....in the most current classes.
That family must want to throw up everytime they see that in the herald.
There is no excuse for that. Someone friggin died.....
Is it the trainee's fault, maybe, creatime seemed to cause a few problems, But jesus.
Injuries-
They happen and will continue, I wonder what kind of hospital they got out there in them sticks... I heard that the Pats and the Bruins have all their surgeries and rehabs done at the same hospital. NEWS FLASH: Whinchendon now replaces Boston as medical hub!!

If you value your new employees- take care of the one that are legit.
Are some not legite, why yes, but keep the minorities and females, we will need them in the end and affirmative action needs to stay off our ass.

Per the herald, per a trooper, toilet games and swirlies have always been part of the fun.
So I call Bullshit on this being an ISOLATED incident.
If that's the way it is than don't be shy folks, don't try and play coy. If you do that crap in there, than be up front about it. If it's a known and customarily accepted "secret"; part of doing buisness, if you will, than why did 3 people get transferred?
If you thought that was "accepted" practice, list it in the handbook........:ermm: 
Then, you won't have to worry about dropout rate, folks will now know what they are getting into....
Why don't you petition to change it back to cooper standards, I think it should be that way. In fact I think you should have to run 5 miles in 50 minutes..... flat course. If you want to run peoples balls off then don't waste time with anything less..Then at least you are confident that you have someone in decent shape to finish the program.


----------



## bbelichick

stubrie said:


> Let's go through some known facts.....
> T.Shepard died of dehydration, More than one person has been to the hospital "taking' more than one bag of fluid to hydrate....in the most current classes.
> That family must want to throw up everytime they see that in the herald.
> There is no excuse for that. Someone friggin died.....


That happened in the 1980's. Ya think maybe you can stop rehashing it? And I believe the major gist of the last article was OVER hydration.



> Per the herald, per a trooper, toilet games and swirlies have always been part of the fun.
> So I call Bullshit on this being an ISOLATED incident.


And I call BULLSHIT on your assertion that there was a quote claiming such a thing. It may be your hazy memory, but no one claimed that.

Call all the bullshit you want, I have personally talked to people out of the last 8 classes at New Braintree. That kind of thing never happened before. In a closed type environment like that, if it did, EVERYONE would know.


----------



## Clouseau

I will not comment on what I think is appropriate academy training, but this is how I see it.

When you join something, anything, you should have researched and prepared for it.
If you're not interested, not prepared, or don't think you can do it...don't join,
don't waste space.

Everyone that played high school football knew that it consisted of double sessions in the hot humid weather while wearing all your heavy equipment. It also involved a lot of running, yelling and a little hazing at times. If you wanted to play bad enough, you would have prepared yourself and done it.

The Marines have a notoriously tough boot camp. If you want to be a Marine, you should know this. You will have prepared yourself. You would expect yelling, screaming, a lot of running and pt. You would also be prepared to expect the unexpected. There are plenty of surprises and maybe even a little hazing. Wouldn't you know this going in? If you want it bad enough, you will do it .
If not, don't join, don't waste space.

If you fill out an application and are accepted for an office job, are you going to be surprised when you are sitting at a desk all day? Are you going to be surprised about office politics?

My point is...Learn about and know what you are getting into. If you're not interested, and not prepared physically and mentally ...don't join. 

{I know that if I missed a meal one day, you can bet I would be at the front of the line the next day.}


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## Guest

No toilet incidents in my class or anything out of the ordinary for paramilitary training, so I call Bullshit. Most of what happens to an individual is due to his own physical or mental limitations. T Shephard was due to lack of hydration and as one of the recent crybabies has pointed out, that has been rectified.


----------



## dcs2244

Bull Hockey on everything!

"Swirlies" are not derigueur at the SPA. Period. Not at Framingham, and not at New Braintree. I know...I have broken in members from every New Braintree class and have never heard of this occurring.

Three people were transferred: it's called eyewash, kid...someone has to take the fall. This is not a police thing, but an every job thing.

Tim Shepard: was denied the academy because he couldn't pass the Cooper thing. The politicians of his local jurisdiction "insisted" that he would be admitted to the academy...so he was.

Tim Shepard: was on diuretics trying to lose weight and could not, therefore, make efficient use of hydrating fluids.

The Agawam Academy: had no potable water, but the MCJTC held the class there anyway...MCJTC is not the MSP.

Tim Shepard: died, causing my class to be punished for an entire day: "How dare one of you die...". I guess "one-of-you" certainly separates the MSP trainee from the Local trainee...

Tim Shepard: was in the throws of a pending divorce...but now his 'wife' receives a 'retirement' check from civil service.

Tim Shepard: was not a cop, and never should have been in the academy...but now his "wife" receives a nice check from the state.

Oh, and as far as troopers responding to 'bar fights' and the like: we do, and we are not 'poaching' or wishing we were 'locals': in Troops B and C we are the police, you back-east parochial clown! Life doesn't end at 128...it begins!

And, as far as the sh*ty of Quincy is concerned: I'm sure you are quite busy handling drunken blue collar fist-fights and wife beaters: you are a bedroom community of the mundane...more real police work happens in Pittsfield than Quincy!

Things to do in Quincy: get drunk, fight and go to the Fore River Diner for breakfast.

Delta, it sounds like you are just another touchy-feely Bolshevik that either failed the MSP test or washed out of the academy...and Sturbrie should stop consuming mind altering substances before he posts!


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## Eamonn Wright

Delta, wrong again about my not being on very long. Not as long as you, but over 10 years. You keep pointing fingers here, blaming others for the poor behavior of guys on your job. It's interesting how you excuse the behavior of guys because some Tpr in the past waved them off on a stop or something, but they turn around and shit on someone who doesn't behave like that and has no problem calling it the bullshit it is. Quit making sorry excuses for this crap. Like I said, I call it what it is no matter if it's a Tpr or a local.

Stubrie, "per the hearald"? Are you shitting me? Since when do you believe everything you read in the paper? I've never even heard of a swirlie until the articles. I work with thousands of Tprs who've gone through the SPA. It's not some deep hidden secret like you wish it was. It's an isolated event by a nitwit Tpr.


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## Clouseau

dcs2244 said:


> : it's called eyewash, kid...


The swirlies or the tranfers? :jestera:


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## dcs2244

Both, I reckon...sorry, the "double entendre'" did not occur to me!


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## Sgt Jack

dcs2244 said:


> "The Agawam Academy: had no potable water, but the MCJTC held the class there anyway...MCJTC is not the MSP.
> Ahh actually all the DI's and the Commandant were from the MSP....Oh and while were on the topic of Recruit deaths what happend at Framingham in 1985 with Trainee James Whitehouse???? and your damn right about the water not being potable....7 cadets were put on dialysis


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## Eamonn Wright

20 years ago? Give us a break there Sarge. Maybe we should discuss Examscam, the Depositor's Trust Robbery, and all sorts of other old shite that can be dredged up.


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## yutyut1

Bottom line is.....If you want to beccome a Massachusetts State Trooper you have to complete the academy. It is a rite of passage. The academy has been tough since its inception. Is it tough yes!!can u make it??yes. If you want it bad enough you will prepare yourself physically and mentally. 

Now the State Police academy may not be for everyone and that is OK. There are many other law enforcement agencies out there.


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## no$.10

Delta784 said:


> _*Ask that same trooper why he wrote the sister of a Braintree cop*_",
> 
> *LMAO*- I would have written her, too. Since when does being THE SISTER of a Braintree cop entitle one to diplomatic immunity? Only I would have said either, "This ain't Braintree, hon." or "Really? you must be soooooo proud." Whatever.
> 
> *Delta*, I thought it was you who wrote earlier that "No cop should expect or anticipate being called names by another cop"...isn't that what you just did with the Pyle remark? Hmmmm.
> 
> *Eamon*-Doing your homework-DUDE! Impressive. A little mean with the Clemente thing, but still impressive. This one's for you...
> :beer:
> 
> *Sgt. Jack*..."*Oh and while were on the topic of Recruit deaths* " We weren't.
> :BNANA:


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## Sgt Jack

no$.10 said:


> *Eamon*-Doing your homework-DUDE! Impressive. A little mean with the Clemente thing, but still impressive. This one's for you...
> :beer:
> 
> *Sgt. Jack*..."*Oh and while were on the topic of Recruit deaths* " We weren't.
> :BNANA:


Anytime you want to talk about Clemente just let me know I'll be more than happy to discuss that POS..and as far as Shepard goes well I belive some other folks brought that one up...


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## GARDA

I am just not feeling the love on this thread.


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## mpd61

Hey Hey *HEY!!!!!!*
Let's all take a breath. Has anybody hugged a Trooper today? You work this job long enough, for any agency, and you meet butt-heads and superstars alike. I know IrishWampanoag and respect him for his New Braintree ride in 1996 (SSPO) I also know personally one of the seven from Agawam who almost went the way of his classmate. He is and was a physically fit specimen. Happily he's a new LT. and pretty squared away.

Bottom line is the SPA is not some tortue camp turning out mindless neo-nazi jack-booted thugs. 93.375% of Troopers I have met were professional _*and*_ down-to earth.Of course there was the french-blue-meanie who jacked me up while I was doing a busy traffic detail at BC/BS in Rockland a couple of summers ago. He kept asking me "what are you doing?" and "who do I work for?" I told him the town of Rockland. (hee hee) I don't think he was a typical Trooper in my experience. 
 
Delta is probably a decent cop too. He's probably just harboring some deep-seated need to be accepted by, and have his opinions validated by his peers. Give him a break, he's got everything between the Quincy Adams Hotel and the Fore River Bridge fer crying out loud!
:shock:


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## dcs2244

Sgt Jack...you are disingenuous...the civilian staff that calls the shots, aka MCJTC, are not troopers, MDC cops or locals. The cops are just contractors...hired by the civilians and doing their bidding. Does this make the cops not responsible? NO! But to foist the blame for this debacle solely upon the MSP is!

Obviously, to include the MCJTC in the "who-to-blame" list does not sit well with the local folks who agree with you, Jack: better to just blame the neo-nazi troopers, because as you and yours tell it, the locals are perfect and free of blame.

Guys...don't hate...just blame the state.


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## Guest

mpd61, always the voice of reason. True cops always argue w/ each other once in awhile. As long as we back each other up. Mistakes will happen in training. All instructors can do is learn from them and carry on. Real training to protect the public, whether LE or military, will and should have some risks. Why, because protecting your own life and that of the civilians is risky. Thus, a trainee should be pushed to his limits. The trainee should be tested prior to hitting the road. Once on the road it is too late. I do not want to be in a high risk / high stress situation and find out my backup will wig out.


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## GARDA

For all the inter-agency...I need a group hug...belly-achers, ENOUGH ALREADY.

Another 9/11 style terror attack on our soil will occur again...

Then what? All this "he didn't wave to me on patrol/detail" crap will disappear again and be put back into its proper perspective: FOOLISHNESS. Reminds me of a question once asked me,
"What's the definition of football"? Answer: "Something for the men to do in-between wars". Catch my point?

Bottom line is this, GIVE RESPECT, GET RESPECT. Don't worry about what some individual from some other agency might personally harbor about your co-workers, or feel collectively about your agency, he doesn't know you personally? or DOES he?

and MSP "trainee cry babies strike again"... one word for all to consider...ADVERSITY; or the 
"state of hardship", as defined by some. YES, all you possible candidates for the 79th RTT, 80th, 81st, etc... WILL learn what this is about if you haven't already in life... Expect it, Prepare for it, and Overcome it. End of argument. For those of us who understand this...NO EXPLANATION NECESSARY; for those who don't...NO EXPLANATION POSSIBLE.


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## stubrie

My info is far from herald based. A TROOPER in the Herald stated that "a kick in the butt, a head in the john" was commonplace.
That exact senario that happened may not have happened exactly the same, but other crap has happened that is similiar.
Double-dog dare me to prove it.....
Folks have dehydrated in there recently, that is a fact.
is drinking too much water a legite gripe-nope.
Know all the facts going into this academy.
(Perkins vs commonwealth 2001)- I'll summarize 
1) Basically states that you as a recriut are "at will" employees and can be let go for any reason at any time with no recourse to you.
2) Hazing laws do not apply to the msp academy as they are not considered a "educational institution", folks hazing will continue they will just be smarter about it.
Good luck all that travel the road, that is quite a bit of control to give up. It's not about toughness it's all about what you are truely triing to accomplish.
The only illegal substance that hits my senses, is a breast fed diaper.......


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## bbelichick

stubrie said:


> My info is far from herald based. A TROOPER in the Herald stated that "a kick in the butt, a head in the john" was commonplace.
> That exact senario that happened may not have happened exactly the same, but other crap has happened that is similiar.
> Double-dog dare me to prove it.....


OK, prove it.

That "veteran Trooper" was never identified, and I would guarantee he doesn't even exist. They don't even swear at you, let alone put their hands on you.

If you weren't there, you don't know, so SHUT UP.


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## JoninNH

_:crazy: Might I suggest that someone lock this thread since, as entertaining as it might be, there is absolutely zero useful knowledge being passed on here? Just a bunch of people who never made the cut with MSP bashing the MSP Academy and troopers in general. The MSP Academy is hard, difficult and stressful, just as it should be. :crazy:_​​_If you have a problem with the Academy, and you HAVEN'T been there, then you're working on rumor and speculation. If you have a problem with it, and you washed out then feed your cheese to the rat squad, and STFU. If you have a problem with the Academy and you are a trooper, then apply to become a DI and change it when you're there. _​


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## BostonIrishAngel

Just in case you think that this is an isolated incident, the state fire academy is having the same problem. Yes, I realize there is a huge difference, but read on. Over the last few years and past classes, a small number of recruits were sent to a certain hospital in the area and the recruits were complaining of various ailments. Most were seen for dehydration, sprains/strains, and one recently for a possible heart attack. The attending dr. who saw most of the recruits took it upon himself to send a letter to the high ups stating that he thought the physical training program was leading to all these injuries and ailments. So what did the academy do? Overhaul the program? NO way!! They eliminated the PT program altogether. There is some talk they might put some phsyical training back in place, but for now, nothing.

It's amazing to me that in this day and age, there is no personal responsibility being taken anymore. If your ass is too out of shape to be in the State Police Academy (which is 100 times harder than the FF academy), or the FF Academy, then they should wash you out within the first week. Higher standards have to be put into place to avoid embarassing situations such as this, and to ensure that only the best, most physically capable and mentally tough are chosen for these positions of great responsibility. Unfortunately, I think situations like these are going to continue to happen, much to the detriment of the law enforcement and firefighting communities. God help the MSP - if something isn't done soon, they're doomed.


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## MARINECOP

Delta784 said:


> Are they still teaching that city & town cops are "pieces of shit" out in New Braintree?


Please tell me that is not true. Guess not because I have not seen that verbally expressed to me, but I will find out if it is soon enough and let you guys know. :BM:


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## bbelichick

MARINECOP said:


> Please tell me that is not true. Guess not because I have not seen that verbally expressed to me, but I will find out if it is soon enough and let you guys know. :BM:


It is an absolute LIE.


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## kokid

My two cents: I'm a city cop who has had nothing but good experiences with MSP. That being said, I know there are some hard guys on their job, just like on ours! If I'm radioing for help, I don't care if the back-up is wearing french and electric blue, or what kind of academy he/she attended. The same should go for State when we roll up on one of their stops. What matters is that they made it out of the academy and are now cops who could be saving one of our lives. Last time I checked we all had the same objective in mind: Get home to our families in one piece!


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## JoninNH

Amen Kokid.


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## Eamonn Wright

Right on kokid. Anyone who won't admit their own department has assholes who are responsible for their own behavior, has absolutely zero credibility. 

Marinecop, what bbelichik said: It's an outright, bald-faced lie, and whoever says it's true is a liar and a scoundrel pushing their own personal agenda.

Again, I couldn't agree with you more kokid. I've worked in barracks that covered some shit-hole cities, and then as now, I don't care who it is backing me up. I want good relations with every other cop out there. I'll continue to go out of my way to cultivate good relations with local officers.


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## dcs2244

I never thought about who was covering my six...or who's I was covering...I just figured we were all on the same team. That having been said, there are jerks on every job, and it doesn't take Friday and Gannon to identify them.

When you meet one of these creatures, please don't think that all troopers/patrolmen/deputies etc are the same. Well, except if you are in Quincy, where the girls are pretty, the men are prettier and the cops are beyond reproach!


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