# Red light permit



## jettsixx (Dec 10, 2005)

I have tried a search and cant seem to find the answer I am looking for. I have also checked 90/7E and I cant find what I am looking for. 

My question is, Can a red light on a personal vehicle be used in another town. Lets say that a call firefighter/emt lives in town A but works in town B. Regardless of "professional courtesy", Is it legal for said firefighter/emt to activate red light before the town line? As I said I have read through 90/7E and I dont see where it would be illegal.


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## celticsfan (Dec 18, 2007)

Maybe someone else can confirm my understanding here, but I believe that a red light (or blue light) is not issued for a specific town or city, unless the issuing authority (chief) restricts it with the permit. It should be legal anywhere in the Commonwealth... if it is being used for the purposes issued--which only you can decide--it should comply with the permit issued by the Fire Chief. I've seen campus police use blue lights if off-campus to return to campus for something serious, for example, so "jurisdiction" is not really a qualifier as far as I know.

From what I understand, the RMV can still pull the permit if there are complaints, or at its discretion, even if the Chief still wants the person to have it.

I'm not too familar with fire departments who have on-call people town(s) away... sounds strange to me to do this. Is this a volunteer fireman? I'd avoid using a permit that way, personally. Sounds like a very "liberal" usage to me.


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## soup (Nov 1, 2006)

Chapter 89 sections 7, 7a and 7b apply to the operation of fire apparatus, police vehicles and ambulances. The red/blue light regulations in 90/7e apply to the mounting and displaying of the light. Nowhere does it say that a call firefighter or a police officer with red or blue lights mounted on their personal vehicle can disregard any chapter 89 or 90 laws with or without a permit.


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## Guest (Aug 27, 2009)

soup said:


> Chapter 89 sections 7, 7a and 7b apply to the operation of fire apparatus, police vehicles and ambulances. The red/blue light regulations in 90/7e apply to the mounting and displaying of the light. Nowhere does it say that a call firefighter or a police officer with red or blue lights mounted on their personal vehicle can disregard any chapter 89 or 90 laws with or without a permit.


What he said.


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## jettsixx (Dec 10, 2005)

Thanks guys. We have several of these types. I have spoken to a few of them as far as vehicle operation. I was just trying to figure out if there was a violation for using the red light as well. Again thanks.


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## KEVDEMT (Feb 20, 2008)

89/7 and 89/7b disagree on the issue:

Section 7. The *members* and apparatus of a fire department while going to a fire or responding to an alarm,

Section 7B. The driver of a vehicle of a fire, police or recognized protective department and the driver of an ambulance

section 7 references individual members irrespective of the departments apparatus. 7b makes reference to vehicles of the department only. its at the very least ambiguous.

all the call ff's i know that have permits have been told by the dept that they are limited to in town use.


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## jettsixx (Dec 10, 2005)

KEVDEMT said:


> all the call ff's i know that have permits have been told by the dept that they are *limited to in town use*.


That is what I am trying to figure out. Most of the call FF and EMTs that we have in the area are ok but we do have a few that are "glory hounds" that think they need to drive 100+mph to everything from where ever they may be.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

jettsixx said:


> That is what I am trying to figure out. Most of the call FF and EMTs that we have in the area are ok but we do have a few that are "glory hounds" that think they need to drive 100+mph to everything from where ever they may be.


It seems to me 89/7 outlines the duties of the public which has to grant right way for emergency vehicles, and this would include a POV outfitted with lights driven by a "The members [and apparatus] of a fire department while going to a fire or responding to an alarm". I think what is key is that 89/7A, which outlines the duties of emergency vehicle operators, applies only to fire apparatus which would not include said POV, and therefore does not allow them to drive like the Duke boys on the run from Sheriff Rosco. So while they'd be able to overtake and force other vehicles to pull over to allow them to pass, they technically can't break any other MV laws.

Also, since the lights require an RMV permit, it would seem they can display them statewide. If the fire chief wishes to restrict their use, he can do so, but what authority do you have to enforce the chief's policy? You could always ask the RMV to revoke the permit, but I think writing for a red light violation would be out of line unless they're using them for an illegitimate purpose (like being late for a doctor's appointment). That said, enforcing that is another matter; I wish you luck with the inter-agency shitstorm you'll create enforcing these things.

Even if you give them the benefits of 89/7A, they need to exercise "caution and due regard" for public safety under 89/7B. It would seem to me if they're doing a buck to a non-life threatening situation, you could charge OTE if you really wanted to hammer down.


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## jettsixx (Dec 10, 2005)

As far as the inter agency stuff, I would rather go to thier cheif first and handle things that way.


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## soup (Nov 1, 2006)

89/7 reads "The members *and* apparatus.......etc." So, I would say that that members have to be on the apparatus. If it read "The Members *or* apparatus.........etc." I would agree that they would be covered in their pov. One thing is for sure, they need to move to the right and stop their pov if I come up behind them in a marked cruiser with my lights and/or siren on.


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## KEVDEMT (Feb 20, 2008)

soup said:


> 89/7 reads "The members *and* apparatus.......etc." So, I would say that that members have to be on the apparatus. If it read "The Members *or* apparatus.........etc." I would agree that they would be covered in their pov. One thing is for sure, they need to move to the right and stop their pov if I come up behind them in a marked cruiser with my lights and/or siren on.


answer me this, and im not trying to be insullent here, but how precisely do you plan to move the piece without the members? its basic logic that a member would be driving the apparatus, so the separate mention of the member implies that there is a distinction.


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## TRPDiesel (Nov 28, 2008)

Working in a rural area I have expirienced the ding dings running hot to a multitude of calls. I have followed them at times and made sure that they didn't do anything eggregious and were going to a legimate call. If they pull over, I just tell them that I am following them to the call to assist and let them continue. 
I have only encounted a PC with blue lights blazing twice, both times they had pulled over for me to catch up, identified themselves and informed me of where they were heading and then I continued on with them to assist with the incident. 
The majority of us are in public service because we want to help either as a Police Officer or Fireman/EMT, therefore I feel that we are on the same team working towards the same goals with similar obstacles. I have not had a problem with those that are displaying a red light to date. If I did, I would take it up with the Operator and try to handle it at the lowest level. No sense in getting someone in the glue if we can help it, the public gripes about public service enough as it is. If that fails then talk to the Chief after the incident they had responded to was over. If the issue persists, cite them and let the courts decifer the right and wrong of flying thru the center of town with a personal vehicle and a single blinky light.


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## Trifecta (Mar 3, 2006)

Couldn't have put it any better


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## soup (Nov 1, 2006)

My dept gets along very well with the FD including the call firefighters. But I don't think the red light permit grants them the right to operate their pov's contrary to ch. 89 and 90. If I had a problem, I would handle it one on one with the guy. Going higher is always a last resort.


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