# Quinn Bill Poll



## Guest (Dec 3, 2008)

I'm in the process of designing a research project for a proposed Criminal Justice journal article concerning the Quinn Bill as it relates to police officers earning college degrees after they're hired. Before I start the official data collection, I just want to see if my hypothesis has any validity, so I'm looking for a little help. The actual survey questions will be a lot more detailed, but I'm just looking for some raw data for now.

Please respond to this poll if you're a full-time police officer (any department in any jurisdiction), earned a college degree *AFTER* you were hired, and indicate the *highest* degree you earned *AFTER* you were hired.

In other words, if your department has the Quinn Bill but you already had a Master's degree, do not respond to the poll. If you had a Bachelor's degree and went on to earn a Master's degree, you would choose "Master's degree - Quinn Bill department".

Please be honest and only respond if you're currently a full-time police officer who earned a degree *AFTER* being hired. If this project goes the way I think it will, this could be a major weapon against the coming assault on the Quinn Bill.

Thanks!


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## HuskyH-2 (Nov 16, 2008)

May i ask what your hypothesis is?


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2008)

TrooperzSon said:


> May i ask what your hypothesis is?


A financially positive education incentive such as the Quinn Bill will motivate police officers to pursue higher education *after* they're hired, rather than relying on their pre-hiring education.

Give me some time, and I'll come up with a totally pretenious title for this project that confuses everyone except those with the alphabet soup after their names.


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## HuskyH-2 (Nov 16, 2008)

Hmm that's pretty interesting although I'm not sure if i think it's true just because of my own experience. Ultimately what is the purpose of the Quinn Bill, to attract more highly educated candidates to beome officers, or to promote current officer's to get higher educations.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Another aspect you may want to examine is municipalities that build on the Quinn Bill...For example, for Master's Degrees Plymouth's patrolman's union has 30% contractually guaranteed and it's included into everything (base pay, OT/town work, retirement, holiday pay, etc.) When I was looking into working there, I believe somewhere between a third to half of the department has their M.A., and other guys who've transfered in from 25% towns where it may not have been previously worth it have hustled to get the degree done.



Delta784 said:


> A financially positive education incentive such as the Quinn Bill will motivate police officers to pursue higher education after they're hired, rather than relying on their pre-hiring education.


Not to create a whole other discussion here, but I've always been of the opinion people wait on the educatation is because their not going to shell out $40, $50k in college degrees only to never break through Civil Service.


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## Guest (Dec 3, 2008)

OfficerObie59 said:


> Another aspect you may want to examine is municipalities that build on the Quinn Bill...For example, for Master's Degrees Plymouth's patrolman's union has 30% contractually guaranteed and it's included into everything (base pay, OT/town work, retirement, holiday pay, etc.)


Do you know of any other departments that have an enhanced Quinn?



OfficerObie59 said:


> When I was looking into working there, I believe somewhere between a third to half of the department has their M.A., and other guys who've transfered in from 25% towns where it may not have been previously worth it have hustled to get the degree done.


That's the heart of what I'm looking at; whether the incentive is getting officers who are already on the job to get their degrees, which is exactly what the Quinn Bill was designed for.


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

I had an AAS in CJ when I got on the job...did the BS and MA back-to-back once I had been on the job for awhile. I think the educational experience allows the average cop to better prepare their cases for court, and once there, to better express themselves on the stand. The judges, lawyers (and even the box-o-rocks) notice this: once your rep is established, you're treated...more cautiously....when testifying . In any event, we do not have the "Quinn Bill", per se, but have the same thing in our contract (base pay).


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## Guest (Dec 4, 2008)

The sample size is still pretty small, but the percentages are lining up exactly as I suspected.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Delta784 said:


> Do you know of any other departments that have an enhanced Quinn?


I know for sure there others around, but they're few and far between, and I can't for the life of me remember what towns did it. Sorry, I know that doesn't do you much good.


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

Delta784 said:


> That's the heart of what I'm looking at; whether the incentive is getting officers who are already on the job to get their degrees, which is exactly what the Quinn Bill was designed for.


I was working toward a Psych degree back in the early 90s and stopped to do other things. After getting on the job, instead of finishing my BS in Psych, and then continue on to a master in CJ, I went back to earn an AS in CJ to get on the books asap. That way while working on my bachelor degree I'm earnin' while I'm learnin' 

For many of us who weren't inclined toward LE in school, the Quinn is a huge incentive to become more knowledgeable in your trade.


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

OfficerObie59 said:


> I know for sure there others around, but they're few and far between, and I can't for the life of me remember what towns did it. Sorry, I know that doesn't do you much good.


The MPA might keep records of that kind of thing...they used to issue salary stats by member department back when I was a member (back when Dick Tracy was still in uniform...).


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Delta, looks like you have a sample of 30 responses. Does that not now make your poll statistically accurate? (Damn, I hated statistics)


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2008)

OfficerObie59 said:


> Delta, looks like you have a sample of 30 responses. Does that not now make your poll statistically accurate?


Well, not really; anyone with access to this website could have responded to the poll, but it's good enough for me to go ahead with the project, provided I have the time and can secure the funding.

The responses have been pretty much exactly as I suspected, which shouldn't be surprising to anyone except a _Boston Herald _reporter or an AM radio talk show host; as SinePari so accurately put it, the Quinn Bill is a huge incentive, to the point of being a no-brainer, for a police officer to further their education, even if it's a huge temporary pain-in-the-ass.



OfficerObie59 said:


> (Damn, I hated statistics)


Me too....that's why I'm going to let SPSS do all the calculations.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2008)

I did not answer the poll, because I don't qualify yet. I can say that I am holding off going after my degree in CJ because I am so close to finishing a degree I started prior to LE. It's in Human Services, but does not qualify for Quinn. When I get on f/t in my town, I will be going after my B.S. in CJ. Quinn + Overnight Shift + Online Classes = WIN!


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## mpr4601 (Mar 24, 2007)

Don't hold off too long. You never know when this will be next on the chopping block.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2008)

5-0 said:


> I did not answer the poll, because I don't qualify yet. I can say that I am holding off going after my degree in CJ because I am so close to finishing a degree I started prior to LE. It's in Human Services, but does not qualify for Quinn. When I get on f/t in my town, I will be going after my B.S. in CJ. Quinn + Overnight Shift + Online Classes = WIN!


If you already have a Bachelor's degree, don't bother getting another one, go for the Master's and the 25%.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2008)

Delta784 said:


> If you already have a Bachelor's degree, don't bother getting another one, go for the Master's and the 25%.


The human service degree will be an A.S.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2008)

mpr4601 said:


> Don't hold off too long. You never know when this will be next on the chopping block.


I've been beating that drum with my guys for awhile; our labor counsel believes any modification to the Quinn Bill would have to grandfather existing participants, so get cracking if you don't have anything right now.



5-0 said:


> The human service degree will be an A.S.


Okay, that makes sense.

Remember you can petition the board of higher education to give you a waiver if your degree isn't on the approved list. Some of the old-timers on my job got public administration degrees approved via a waiver. It's free, and the worst they can do is say no.


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## HuskyH-2 (Nov 16, 2008)

Delta784 said:


> I've been beating that drum with my guys for awhile; our labor counsel believes any modification to the Quinn Bill would have to grandfather existing participants, so get cracking if you don't have anything right now.
> 
> Okay, that makes sense.
> 
> Remember you can petition the board of higher education to give you a waiver if your degree isn't on the approved list. Some of the old-timers on my job got public administration degrees approved via a waiver. It's free, and the worst they can do is say no.


Funny you say that, my father was just saying how he went for Public admin in LE or something like that instead of a M in CJ.

Question does a Law Degree count as a Master's as far as Quinn? I'm finishing up at Northeastern for Bach in CJ and would like go to for my J.D. afterward if there's an incentive.


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## Guest (Dec 5, 2008)

TrooperzSon said:


> Question does a Law Degree count as a Master's as far as Quinn? I'm finishing up at Northeastern for Bach in CJ and would like go to for my J.D. afterward if there's an incentive.


Yes, as long as you pass the bar examination you get the 25%.


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## kttref (Oct 5, 2004)

Ok. You said ANY jurisdiction...so here I go.

My PD pays for 100% of school in a field relating to CJ. So I am in the process (graduate in June) of attaining a masters in Justice Administration. Of course, they don't pay me until I get a grade...and it was damn near $10k up front...so I had to take out a loan to pay it...and the interest is about $500....so my master's is costing me $500!


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## HuskyH-2 (Nov 16, 2008)

Delta784 said:


> Yes, as long as you pass the bar examination you get the 25%.


Ah ok didn't know that thanks for the info.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2008)

kttref said:


> Ok. You said ANY jurisdiction...so here I go.
> 
> My PD pays for 100% of school in a field relating to CJ. So I am in the process (graduate in June) of attaining a masters in Justice Administration. Of course, they don't pay me until I get a grade...and it was damn near $10k up front...so I had to take out a loan to pay it...and the interest is about $500....so my master's is costing me $500!


I'll do you one better....mine was totally free, thanks to a veteran's tuition waiver.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

TrooperzSon said:


> Question does a Law Degree count as a Master's as far as Quinn? I'm finishing up at Northeastern for Bach in CJ and would like go to for my J.D. afterward if there's an incentive.





Delta784 said:


> Yes, as long as you pass the bar examination you get the 25%.


I'm taking the LSAT tomorrow morning; wish me luck.

FYI, there's some good programs and perks out there for cops pursuing JD's...Suffolk offers a joint JD/MCJ program, as I believe Northeastern may as well. Problem is, Northeastern doesn't have a part-time program.

MSL/Andover is also a great program (though not ABA accredited), as its under $15k per year (relatively affordable for those of us in our line of work), but everyone I know who's gone there says the academics are an ass kicker.

Also, New England School of Law offers the Mark Charbonnier scholarship.


> Three half-tuition scholarships are given in memory of this Massachusetts state trooper who was awarded a JD posthumously after being killed in the line of duty during his last year at New England Law. Applicants must be full-time police officers in Massachusetts who are entering their final year of the evening division.


I'm a huge proponent of going for the law degree, as very few of us make it to 32 years. I have no skills outside of law enforcement, and I look at this as a good backup career, and a degree that won't hurt if I ever choose to take a promo exam all on top of my Quinn.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2008)

OfficerObie59 said:


> I'm taking the LSAT tomorrow morning; wish me luck.


Good luck; get a good night's sleep and eat a good (not heavy) breakfast.



OfficerObie59 said:


> FYI, there's some good programs and perks out there for cops pursuing JD's...Suffolk offers a joint JD/MCJ program, as I believe Northeastern may as well. Problem is, Northeastern doesn't have a part-time program.
> 
> MSL/Andover is also a great program (though not ABA accredited), as its under $15k per year (relatively affordable for those of us in our line of work), but everyone I know who's gone there says the academics are an ass kicker.
> 
> ...


Don't forget Southern New England School of Law (not ABA like MSL);

http://www.snesl.edu

I work with a few guys who have law degrees, but only one I know of is actually doing anything significant with it (real estate law). If I went through four years of bullshit and laid out that kind of money, I'd like a little return on the investment besides the 25%.


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## kttref (Oct 5, 2004)

Delta784 said:


> I'll do you one better....mine was totally free, thanks to a veteran's tuition waiver.


Damn you!


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## Buford T (Feb 12, 2005)

How about all the officers who left non-Quinn departments for Quinn dept's.? That would also be extremely revealing as far as retention and hiring for your survey, Bruce.


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## Guest (Dec 6, 2008)

Buford T said:


> How about all the officers who left non-Quinn departments for Quinn dept's.? That would also be extremely revealing as far as retention and hiring for your survey, Bruce.


Something to think about, but more than one research project has been bogged-down by getting too complicated. I think if I can show hard data that officers on Quinn Bill departments are far more likely to earn degrees than officers on departments with a lesser or no incentive, it should be enough to shut-up David Tuerck, Samuel Tyler, Barbara Anderson, etc. for awhile.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Delta784 said:


> ...it should be enough to shut-up David Tuerck, Samuel Tyler, Barbara Anderson, etc. for awhile.


IMHO, the Quinn bill battle will be a lot tougher on the opposition than what the detail debate was. I would like to think we can anticipate back-up higher learning institutions that have spent enough capital to get their CJ programs Quinn certed.

I know that some of the Chiefs Orgs have been all for A.S. or college credit requirements for intial entries, but anyone know what the position of, say, Mass Chiefs is on this?

In any event, I find these words of encouragement amazing, considering the source. I'm sure this article came up in another thread, but I'm reposting it as it is pretty germain to the topic at hand. (Don't get me too wrong; the detail reference is still aggravating.)



> *OUR OPINION: An educated approach to public safety*
> 
> *The Patriot Ledger*
> Posted Oct 17, 2008 @ 06:30 AM
> ...


http://www.patriotledger.com/news/c...educated-approach-to-public-safety?view=print


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2008)

OfficerObie59 said:


> IMHO, the Quinn bill battle will be a lot tougher on the opposition than what the detail debate was. I would like to think we can anticipate back-up higher learning institutions that have spent enough capital to get their CJ programs Quinn certed.


I would hope so; those fancy new dorms that Curry College has been building were probably financed by their Quinn Bill programs.



OfficerObie59 said:


> I know that some of the Chiefs Orgs have been all for A.S. or college credit requirements for intial entries, but anyone know what the position of, say, Mass Chiefs is on this?


I don't know about Mass Chiefs, but I'm in favor of requiring at least an Associate's degree for entry-level police officers. I used to think that military service should exempt that, but with the plethora of legitimate online college programs and the government willing to finance the education of service members, there's really no excuse anymore for being honorably discharged without at least an Associate's degree. Some of my online students are doing their research papers from Iraq and Afghanistan.



OfficerObie59 said:


> In any event, I find these words of encouragement amazing, considering the source. I'm sure this article came up in another thread, but I'm reposting it as it is pretty germain to the topic at hand. (Don't get me too wrong; the detail reference is still aggravating.)


Perhaps my back-and-forth battle of the written word with the editorial board helped them realize that we're not all a bunch of mouth-breathing knuckle-draggers? 

So how did the LSAT go?


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Delta784 said:


> So how did the LSAT go?


I left the testing site never feeling so dumb or mentally exhausted in my entire life, and I mean that without any exaggeration whatsoever. I did a decent amount of prep, but at a certain point, you can either do the questions or you can't. I hope to come out somewhere in the middle.

Score turnaround is 2-3 weeks, so we'll see.


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

OfficerObie59 said:


> FYI, there's some good programs and perks out there for cops pursuing JD's...Suffolk offers a joint JD/MCJ program


I've been eye-balling the Suffolk program for a few months. Does anyone know if having a JD/MCJ from Suffolk without taking the Bar exam qualifies for the Quinn? I can't get a straight answer from HR.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2008)

SinePari said:


> I've been eye-balling the Suffolk program for a few months. Does anyone know if having a JD/MCJ from Suffolk without taking the Bar exam qualifies for the Quinn? I can't get a straight answer from HR.


No; the Suffolk CJ program is not Quinn-approved, and you need to pass the bar exam to get the 25% with any law degree.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2008)

Sine, if you're interested in a Master's and law degree combo but don't care about taking the bar exam, look into the online Master's degree offered by UMass-Lowell. As a state employee you get a 50% tuition discount;

http://www.umassonline.net/degrees/Online-Degree-Master-Criminal-Justice.cfm

You can then use the savings to attend one of the state-approved but not ABA-accredited law schools (if you're not taking the bar anyway, who cares?);

http://www.msl.edu

http://www.snesl.edu


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

Delta784 said:


> Sine, if you're interested in a Master's and law degree combo but don't care about taking the bar exam, look into the online Master's degree offered by UMass-Lowell. As a state employee you get a 50% tuition discount


Way ahead of you plus a tuition waiver for veterans.


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## trueblue (Jan 21, 2008)

USMCMP5811 said:


> Bruce, not sure if it is anhanced per say, but Franklin is Quinn town that requires a newly hired officer to obtain a AAS with in 41 months of being hired if s/he hasn't already have one.


Just curious....what happens to anyone who doesn't get an AAS within the 41 months? Fired? Suspended? I've never heard of this requirement.


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## Guest (Dec 10, 2008)

SinePari said:


> Way ahead of you plus a tuition waiver for veterans.


They're still doing that? They tried to put a stop to it when I was going there, but eventually grandfathered the existing off-campus students and limited the veteran's waiver to on-campus (Lowell) courses.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

SinePari said:


> Way ahead of you plus a tuition waiver for veterans.





Delta784 said:


> They're still doing that? They tried to put a stop to it when I was going there, but eventually grandfathered the existing off-campus students and limited the veteran's waiver to on-campus (Lowell) courses.


I thought the tuition and fee waivers were supposed to be expanded for all veterans by the Welcome Home bill. Nonetheless, I was granted the veteran's tutition wavier when I went to Massasoit in 2005/06; I thought it applied to all state schools. While the tutition was only about 1/4 the cost, every little bit helps.


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## Guest (Dec 11, 2008)

OfficerObie59 said:


> I thought the tuition and fee waivers were supposed to be expanded for all veterans by the Welcome Home bill. Nonetheless, I was granted the veteran's tutition wavier when I went to Massasoit in 2005/06; I thought it applied to all state schools. While the tutition was only about 1/4 the cost, every little bit helps.


It was kind of convoluted with UMass-Lowell; the wording of the policy waives "tuition" for veterans, but the administration of the UML Master's program was moved from the graduate school, which charged reasonable "tuition" but the typical UMass killer "fees", to continuing education, which only charges "tuition".

The result was some veterans such as myself got a total free ride, which eventually set-off alarm bells with the bean counters. They tried to pull the carpet out from under us, but eventually compromised with a grandfather of existing veteran students, and a continuation of free tuition for classes on the main Lowell campus. I'm assuming they don't extend the waiver for the online program, but I don't know for sure, as I finished my degree before that was started.


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## Guest (Dec 26, 2008)

Just a refresh a week before the poll closes.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2008)

mikemac64 said:


> A lot of people have started to sweat the Quinn Bill recently. I keep hearing guys talking about the state trying to eliminate it in the next budget.
> 
> I personally don't think it will happen...at least for those of us in it. It would be tough to impose a huge pay cut on so many cops. However, it would be easier to try to divide and conquer (menaing cut it off to new people).
> 
> Any thoughts?


I don't think they'll get rid of the law, I think they just won't fund it next year.


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## fra444 (Nov 23, 2008)

The problem is if they dont fund it who will? The cities and Towns cant afford the full Quin Bill


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2008)

fra444 said:


> The problem is if they dont fund it who will? The cities and Towns cant afford the full Quin Bill


Unless you have a provision in your CBA that the city/town picks up the other half, your 25% just went to 12.5%, or 0% if you're with the state police.


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## fra444 (Nov 23, 2008)

CBA says that they will carry the full boat but we all know that will change after a court appearance and a cry of poverty


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

fra444 said:


> CBA says that they will carry the full boat but we all know that will change after a court appearance and a cry of poverty


All CBA's language read "if funded" under the Quinn provisions. It's not guaranteed anywhere by the state.


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## Guest (Dec 31, 2008)

SinePari said:


> All CBA's language read "if funded" under the Quinn provisions. It's not guaranteed anywhere by the state.


There's one municipality that guarantees full payments, regardless if the state funds their portion. It ain't us, but I don't want to say anything else on a public board.


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## REILEYDOG (Nov 5, 2005)

Rhode Island has/had a bonus program for advanced degrees that the state stopped funding years ago. Some of the departments with smart unions had it put in their contracts that if the state ever stopped funding it, the town (employer) had to fund it. Those departments that didn't have this forsight (like mine), lost it.


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

Delta784 said:


> There's one municipality that guarantees full payments, regardless if the state funds their portion. It ain't us, but I don't want to say anything else on a public board.


Kudos to them...must have a long list of applicants every year...


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Well, I thought I'd let everyone know, I completely croaked on the LSAT--score of 144 at the 23 percentile...ouch. Hopefully my cumulative 3.92 GPA over 102 credits will pull me through. If not, I better get used to the thought of a hour and change commute from the south shore to Andover. 

Law school or bust!!


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## Guest (Jan 1, 2009)

OfficerObie59 said:


> Well, I thought I'd let everyone know, I completely croaked on the LSAT--score of 144 at the 23 percentile...ouch. Hopefully my cumulative 3.92 GPA over 102 credits will pull me through. If not, I better get used to the thought of a hour and change commute from the south shore to Andover.
> 
> Law school or bust!!


Sorry to hear that....have you considered taking a prep course and re-taking the exam? I took a Kaplan course before I took the GRE, and dramatically improved my performance over the practice exam I took "cold".

http://www.kaptest.com/lsat


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm gonna apply to my schools nonetheless and see what happens...if I don't do so well then, I'll take the Kaplan course, retake the test in October and apply for the Fall 2010.

I'm not too worried. Even if don't get in this year, I'll use the time to get a jump on my masters.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

OfficerObie59 said:


> I'm gonna apply to my schools nonetheless and see what happens...if I don't do so well then, I'll take the Kaplan course, retake the test in October and apply for the Fall 2010.


Wish me luck...

This will be my last post before taking another shot at the LSAT tomorrow. If I suck at it again, it's off the SNESL in the fall. I'd like the ABA stamp so I could consider going back into the Reserves to do JAG, but hey, I'll take what I can get.


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## MetrowestPD (Oct 21, 2008)

Good luck Obie


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## KozmoKramer (Apr 25, 2004)

Best of luck to you Obes... :thumbup:


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## Guest (Jun 7, 2009)

OfficerObie59 said:


> Wish me luck...
> 
> This will be my last post before taking another shot at the LSAT tomorrow. If I suck at it again, it's off the SNESL in the fall. I'd like the ABA stamp so I could consider going back into the Reserves to do JAG, but hey, I'll take what I can get.


Good luck!

And just remember....the world needs ditch diggers too, which might end up being a more profitable occupation than police officer, once Beacon Hill is done with us.


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