# No Pref for the Full Time Academy?



## mancrush

I find it a bit funny that the Civil Service does not give any preference to those who have the Massachusetts full time academy? EMT's, Vets etc deserve it, but IMO those with the full time academy should as well.

Is there any chance that they might change this in the near future?

Thanks


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## j809

Maybe not but it will help alot as you are now in a band. Chiefs can choose from Band now.


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## tms1989

j809 said:


> Maybe not but it will help alot as you are now in a band. Chiefs can choose from Band now.


What? I thought it was just raw scores + pref on the most recent test, not banding


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## irish937

Correct. Bands are gone...for now.


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## LGriffin

It's a huge advantage in the hiring process and that's really all that matters.


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## Irishpride

LGriffin said:


> It's a huge advantage in the hiring process and that's really all that matters.


Without any T&E points for it though it's no help getting the hiring process started. I have always felt that prior FT academy and college degrees should qualify for T&E points for entry level exams.


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## SgtAndySipowicz

Points for *police experience *should be a given. Points for having graduated an academy, no. You don't know anything (how things are really done on the street etc) the day you graduate the academy........


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## csauce777

Irishpride said:


> I have always felt that prior FT academy and college degrees should qualify for T&E points for entry level exams.


I'm not saying I disagree, however, having a prior FT academy essentially erases the idea of "entry level." Entry level assumes no prior involvement in the field, much less being fully trained.


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## Irishpride

csauce777 said:


> I'm not saying I disagree, however, having a prior FT academy essentially erases the idea of "entry level." Entry level assumes no prior involvement in the field, much less being fully trained.


The way I look at the entry level qualification is the minimum (no previous training, experience, high school/GED). If an applicant has qualifications that exceed the minimum, I think giving them points on the exam makes perfect sense to me.


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## csauce777

Irishpride said:


> [
> The way I look at the entry level qualification is the minimum (no previous training, experience, high school/GED). If an applicant has qualifications that exceed the minimum, I think giving them points on the exam makes perfect sense to me.


You're right, it does make sense. I'm not sure what my point was actually. Lol


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## mancrush

Agree and respectfully disagree with this point. Although there are a fair share of applicants who have the academy but do not have any LE work experience, I would say that it is more likely a person with an academy would have some type of LE experience.

Personally, I self-sponsored through the academy, and now work for a college police department. I also have some other non munipality police experience as well. I feel that the preferance given to Vet's and EMT's should also extend to people like myself with a full time academy. Of course, I am bias. But, at the end of the day, the people selected should be the most qualified for the job. And, IMO, if a person receives extra preference for being a certified EMT-B, then a person with a full-time MPTC Academy should too.



SgtAndySipowicz said:


> Points for *police experience *should be a given. Points for having graduated an academy, no. You don't know anything (how things are really done on the street etc) the day you graduate the academy........


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## Guest

mancrush said:


> Agree and respectfully disagree with this point. Although there are a fair share of applicants who have the academy but do not have any LE work experience, I would say that it is more likely a person with an academy would have some type of LE experience.
> 
> Personally, I self-sponsored through the academy, and now work for a college police department. I also have some other non munipality police experience as well. I feel that the preferance given to Vet's and EMT's should also extend to people like myself with a full time academy. Of course, I am bias. But, at the end of the day, the people selected should be the most qualified for the job. And, IMO, if a person receives extra preference for being a certified EMT-B, then a person with a full-time MPTC Academy should too.


I'll agree you should get some consideration for your police *experience, *but I'm not too hot on the idea of just handing out automatic preference to someone who has the academy and no practical experience. Even if self-sponsoring was available when I was on the job market (it wasn't, we had to show our pay stubs to the staff each week), it would have been impossible for me, because I was in my early 20's, living in my own place, with no option to move back in with my parents (mother was dead, dad lived out of state), so I had to have a full-time+ paycheck coming in just to stay afloat.

I had veteran's preference to carry me through, but should a non-veteran in a similar situation (self-sufficient and living on their own through no fault of their own) be passed over because someone else had the financial resources and political connections to self-sponsor themselves through an academy while mom did their laundry and cooked them dinner every night?

If you have EXPERIENCE that brings something to the table (military veteran, police experience), then that's worthy of consideration. Should someone who graduated basic training and MOS training in the armed forces be granted preference also, simply because they completed mandated training courses, but have no practical experience?


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## 263FPD

Just coming out of the academy w/o any time on the road makes you morning more then a trained monkey. This isn't meant to disrespect you in any way because I was that trained monkey upon academy graduation. In truth, we all were to some degree. I FTO new hires on my job. Academy gives the newbies enough ammunition to make them dangerous. It is the street experience that will define who they are and what they are capable of. Classroom training is just that, classroom. Being out there and applying what you have learned is something else entirely. I didn't know much about applying the laws and the procedure behind it all until I was on for a year or two. The knowledge was there, but knowing how to use what you know, wasn't. It came with time. 

Should one get preference for having a certificate? I don't know if that is a good idea. Just because someone had signed of on your sponsorship, it doesn't make you a good candidate for a job. I don't really care if you think you deserve it, you very well may. I have several food friends that went the self sponsored route. They started out with a Campus Department and they are now full time municipal cops. One of them had moved on to ICE and hat to go through a FLETC Academy all over again. 

You have hot a job at this tone and that is a huge plus. Leave it alone. Your time will come.


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## Pvt. Cowboy

Can't say I agree 100%. 

Most of you on this board know why... But for those that DON'T...

I don't have the capacity to self sponsor for another two years, at least. Entry level exams like the CS or SP exam are MY chance to get on the job... Without those, well... I'd still be up shits creek without a paddle, but at least I have a spoon to row with at this juncture. Seems like every town/city wants academy trained... Thus reducing my chances even further. Be thankful you had the opportunity to self sponsor, as those of us with mortgages that start in the 2k range don't always gave that option because life gets involved. If anyone would like to know further my lack of self sponsoring fiduciary rational, please feel free to send me a pm.


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## mpd61

Mancrush...

If you have the *MPOC* & work *Full-time *for a *Full-service Campus PD *(armed, making arrests), then you're gaining your experience points (preference). You have a job so don't be too pissed in this economy. Maybe you could enlist and get some more points? just saying.


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## 263FPD

Mpd61 hit the nail right in the head.


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## CJIS

Of course they won't give you any Pref. This is the same test that gives "Tenths" of a point for for actual Experience as a LEO. They don't look at Degrees, Academys, and it is laughable at what they give for Experience as an LEO. 

Speaking for myself I am not fan of how the civil service system is conducted, because it leaves many other factors out about canidates. (education, academy, prior experience, etc.) I would much rather the system work off of Resumes along with a test to help weed people out. I also liked the band system as it gave more flexibility in theroy to the hiring authority.


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## Guest

CJIS said:


> I also liked the band system as it gave more flexibility in theroy to the hiring authority.


The only flexibility it gave was for politicians to play games and "get to" connected people.


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## CJIS

Delta784 said:


> The only flexibility it gave was for politicians to play games and "get to" connected people.


Yes and no. If a candidate was selected from lower band\lower score the Hiring authority needed to write a letter to the CS commission detailing why they selected that candidate over a candidate in a higher band. Could it lead from connections? Yes but that person still needed to have something that the Hiring authority could sell to the CS commission as to why they were chosen over someone higher.

I know several people during that one year they did the band system that had pretty good political pull and they were not selected based on the hiring autority had nothing to sell to the CS commision.


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## Hush

I don't know if I believe that the academy should be given preference, but I can see the advantage for a dept that needs to put someone on the road ASAP...Of course, they'd find better candidates on the lay-off list.


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## Guest

CJIS said:


> Yes and no. If a candidate was selected from lower band\lower score the Hiring authority needed to write a letter to the CS commission detailing why they selected that candidate over a candidate in a higher band. Could it lead from connections? Yes but that person still needed to have something that the Hiring authority could sell to the CS commission as to why they were chosen over someone higher.
> 
> I know several people during that one year they did the band system that had pretty good political pull and they were not selected based on the hiring autority had nothing to sell to the CS commision.


No offense, but you're pretty politically naive if you actually believe that. That comes from someone who was screwed over by the straight exam score system, never mind the ridiculous "banding" system....it was nothing more than to create wiggle room for political games. If you're not going to go by exam score, why bother having an exam system?


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## CJIS

Delta784 said:


> No offense, but you're pretty politically naive if you actually believe that. That comes from someone who was screwed over by the straight exam score system, never mind the ridiculous "banding" system....it was nothing more than to create wiggle room for political games. If you're not going to go by exam score, why bother having an exam system?


Use the exam in conjunction with other factors.

Here is a hypothetical.

Lets say you are the hiring authority. You have two spots open. After sifting through Background checks you have a now have 3 top candidates. One scored a 100 one scored a 96 and the other a 91. All good scores if it was school they would be A's. You still have people on the list that have 90-s and below but these are all that are left based on going by top scores.

They guy with the 100 Has an A.S. degree criminal justice and has no job experience.

The guy with the 96 has no on the job experience but was in the infantry and is a vet.

The guy with the 91 Has a B.S. Degree in Criminal Justice, Has extensive training in LE, and has several years of on the job experience as either a Campus PO or as a Reserve Officer.

All records are clean and there is no other major factors that would disqualify any of the candidates and all interviewd very well.

Who do you want to pick for your two spots?

I would choose the 96 and 91

This is what I am talking about using the scores in conjunction. You used your top three scores after you sifted out the other top scores because they failed a background. You never jumped into the test scores under 90.


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## Irishpride

Political juice is the biggest tie breaker, plain and simple.


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## Guest

CJIS said:


> Use the exam in conjunction with other factors.
> 
> Here is a hypothetical.
> 
> Lets say you are the hiring authority. You have two spots open. After sifting through Background checks you have a now have 3 top candidates. One scored a 100 one scored a 96 and the other a 91. All good scores if it was school they would be A's. You still have people on the list that have 90-s and below but these are all that are left based on going by top scores.
> 
> They guy with the 100 Has an A.S. degree criminal justice and has no job experience.
> 
> The guy with the 96 has no on the job experience but was in the infantry and is a vet.
> 
> The guy with the 91 Has a B.S. Degree in Criminal Justice, Has extensive training in LE, and has several years of on the job experience as either a Campus PO or as a Reserve Officer.
> 
> All records are clean and there is no other major factors that would disqualify any of the candidates and all interviewd very well.
> 
> Who do you want to pick for your two spots?


The veteran with the 96 because he/she would be ranked ahead of the non-vet 100, and the guy/gal with the 100, because you shouldn't be penalized when you ace the exam.

If the PTB want to go to a merit system that factors in experience, then they should do it. Don't play games with "banding"....that declares open season on nepotism. When I took the CS exam, a 91 would have elicited laughs from most appointing authorities; you had to get at *least* a 98 as a non-veteran to even be considered.


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## CJIS

Sorry Delta but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Knowing nothing else about my hypothetical candidates other than what I disclosed I would chose the Candidate that has the Education, Experience, Knowledge and Skills and has walked in the shoes of an LEO. I would take this candidate any day over the one with the 100 score; who knows only what he\she learned through an A.S degree and watching Law and Order. 

The person with the 100 got an interview because they had the high score, they were not “penalized” they were reviewed over people of a lower score. However the next candidate in line had more to offer than just a score. It is a competitive job market, if the person with the 100 had as much to offer I would give them the job. Remember it is not like the candidate with the 91 got a terrible score. Not like he\she got a score of 70. (Passing by the way.) In any other institution a 91 is considered to be an A. a top score. 

Perhaps the “banding” system may not be the way to go about it but I definitely think other factors should and need to be considered in addition to ones score.

Consider this Hypothetical.

You are going in for a semi complex but relatively common operation.

There are two doctors that are certified to do this by your HMO that they will cover for.

One is a seasoned doctor whom has done this operation 100+ times without a single incident. All patients have recovered quickly without complication. 
However in med school he only achieved a GPA of 3.85

The other is a new doctor whom just got out of med school one year ago. He has never preformed this operation before, except for a similar and limited simulated operation on deceased body in med school. However his GPA was a 4.0

Both doctors went to the same school for the same number of years and both are within less than 10 years of age of each other. 

Knowing nothing else who would you want to operate on you?

I know the second guys needs a chance but I’m going with the first guy because I don’t want his chance to be on me.


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## j809

I would choose the one with a Ft academy so I can save money, training, and they can start tomorrow. That is how lots of towns do it and even CS towns do it with exception of bigger cities.


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## OfficerObie59

No direct CS preference but I could see a Dept using your academy certification to bypass other candidates.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## Guest

CJIS said:


> Sorry Delta but I am going to have to respectfully disagree with you on this one. Knowing nothing else about my hypothetical candidates other than what I disclosed I would chose the Candidate that has the Education, Experience, Knowledge and Skills and has walked in the shoes of an LEO. I would take this candidate any day over the one with the 100 score; who knows only what he\she learned through an A.S degree and watching Law and Order.
> 
> The person with the 100 got an interview because they had the high score, they were not "penalized" they were reviewed over people of a lower score. However the next candidate in line had more to offer than just a score. It is a competitive job market, if the person with the 100 had as much to offer I would give them the job. Remember it is not like the candidate with the 91 got a terrible score. Not like he\she got a score of 70. (Passing by the way.) In any other institution a 91 is considered to be an A. a top score.
> 
> Perhaps the "banding" system may not be the way to go about it but I definitely think other factors should and need to be considered in addition to ones score.
> 
> Consider this Hypothetical.
> 
> You are going in for a semi complex but relatively common operation.
> 
> There are two doctors that are certified to do this by your HMO that they will cover for.
> 
> One is a seasoned doctor whom has done this operation 100+ times without a single incident. All patients have recovered quickly without complication.
> However in med school he only achieved a GPA of 3.85
> 
> The other is a new doctor whom just got out of med school one year ago. He has never preformed this operation before, except for a similar and limited simulated operation on deceased body in med school. However his GPA was a 4.0
> 
> Both doctors went to the same school for the same number of years and both are within less than 10 years of age of each other.
> 
> Knowing nothing else who would you want to operate on you?
> 
> I know the second guys needs a chance but I'm going with the first guy because I don't want his chance to be on me.


You're comparing apples to moonrocks.....we're not performing surgery out on the street, so the comparison isn't valid. As I mentioned before, if a merit system based on experience is the way to go, then go to that system and don't bother with a competitive exam. Of course, it's not the way to go, which is why we have competitive exams for governmental police jobs, as political nepotism would run rampant with a "merit based" (who you know) system.

If someone with no experience gets a perfect exam score, there is no valid argument in my opinion that they should be bypassed for someone with a lower score, just because they happen to have experience. How did they get on their non-CS department? Political connections and donations?

Sorry, I don't trust the way this state runs to assume anything else.


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## CJIS

Delta784 said:


> You're comparing apples to moonrocks.....we're not performing surgery out on the street, so the comparison isn't valid. As I mentioned before, if a merit system based on experience is the way to go, then go to that system and don't bother with a competitive exam. Of course, it's not the way to go, which is why we have competitive exams for governmental police jobs, as political nepotism would run rampant with a "merit based" (who you know) system.
> 
> If someone with no experience gets a perfect exam score, there is no valid argument in my opinion that they should be bypassed for someone with a lower score, just because they happen to have experience. How did they get on their non-CS department? Political connections and donations?
> 
> Sorry, I don't trust the way this state runs to assume anything else.


I respect your opinion but:

I don't think I am comparing apples to moonrocks. This is a job that not everyone can do just like not everyone can preform surgery. I know folks both full time and part time that could not handle this job. They thought they could or wanted to but in the end it was too much. Some people can handle having a persons life in their hands and seeing blood (doctor) some people cant. Some people can handle the emotional and physical abuse a LEO takes others can't. Why not take the guy or girl that has been doing it for awhile and seems to be able to handle it?

Don't trust the state because of political pull etc? You don't think under the current system there is not people pulling political? I know there is and have seen it and as a result some people got screwed over. There will always be the "Who do you know crowd" but as long as a system of checks is in place i.e Dept\Hiring authority must state in a written letter with valid good reason why a candidate was bypassed plus the simple fact that if someone feels they were unfairly bypassed they can appeal. Sure it is not perfect and an appeal takes time but we have seen people appeal in the past and win.

As far as how did someone get on a non CS dept. Not everyone has political pull and not everyone that does uses it. The few folks I am friends with and the acquaintances I know that are on non CS Dept's (most are Campus POs) got on how you would expect them to. They started off as a Reserve officer or campus PO. Went to college, took the test for the non CS dept. and got the job.


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## Guest

CJIS said:


> I don't think I am comparing apples to moonrocks. This is a job that not everyone can do just like not everyone can preform surgery. I know folks both full time and part time that could not handle this job. They thought they could or wanted to but in the end it was too much. Some people can handle having a persons life in their hands and seeing blood (doctor) some people cant. Some people can handle the emotional and physical abuse a LEO takes others can't. Why not take the guy or girl that has been doing it for awhile and seems to be able to handle it?


Having done it full-time for over 23 years, I can state with confidence that you don't need to be a nuclear physicist to be a police officer; the fact that the minimum standards in this state are a GED and a driver's license more than adequately display that.



CJIS said:


> Don't trust the state because of political pull etc? You don't think under the current system there is not people pulling political? I know there is and have seen it and as a result some people got screwed over.


I'm living, breathing proof that the current system can be manipulated; I lost 11 months of seniority with my current PD due to political bullshit games. However;



CJIS said:


> There will always be the "Who do you know crowd" but as long as a system of checks is in place i.e Dept\Hiring authority must state in a written letter with valid good reason why a candidate was bypassed plus the simple fact that if someone feels they were unfairly bypassed they can appeal. Sure it is not perfect and an appeal takes time but we have seen people appeal in the past and win.


The current system we have, as far as basing hiring standards on a written exam, is light years better than the banding system, which is an open invitation for political nepotism. I can just see Representative/Senator Scumbag whispering to his biggest political donor, "Hey, just get a 91 to get into the 10 band, and I'll take care of the rest". If you can't see that or don't believe it, then you truly are politically naive.



CJIS said:


> As far as how did someone get on a non CS dept. Not everyone has political pull and not everyone that does uses it. The few folks I am friends with and the acquaintances I know that are on non CS Dept's (most are Campus POs) got on how you would expect them to. They started off as a Reserve officer or campus PO. Went to college, took the test for the non CS dept. and got the job.


One of the few natural talents I've been blessed with is the ability to do well on standardized tests, whether it's the SAT, ASVAB, police exams, or the GRE; whatever it is that you need to do well, I just seem to have it. I also had a very good resume coming out of the military (veteran, MP School graduate, R/I academy graduate, auxiliary police experience, special police experience), but the only full-time sworn police jobs I've held or have been offered were the result of doing well on the entrance exam. I didn't have any political pull, so in spite of being better qualified (on paper) than other candidates, I was passed over for many part-time and non-CS departments, simply because I didn't have anyone to make a phone call for me.


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## Irishpride

I want the best candidate for the job watching my back or responding to a call to my house. In any occupation the best candidate is the one with the most relevant experience, training, and education. In CJIS' example the veteran and the 91 would be my choices for the job. This state places way too much weight on the exam score. I know plenty of useless cops who scored in the high 90's and I know just as many outstanding cops who were veterans and got hired with scores a lot lower.


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## CJIS

Delta784 said:


> Having done it full-time for over 23 years, I can state with confidence that you don't need to be a nuclear physicist to be a police officer; the fact that the minimum standards in this state are a GED and a driver's license more than adequately display that.


Don't say that the Anti Quinn Bill League will eat that up.

I understand the High School person needs to start somewhere but like any other job you start at an entry level. If the High-school person does: ( Public Safety, Aux Police, Military,Special Police\Campus Police, PI) now they have a more attractive background to become a Full-time PO. Obviously if the are no better qualified candidates and the High School kid has the highest score, than give the job to them. Like you said some people are gifted that they can do well on tests others are not. You need consider all the factors to make a good choice on a canidate.

Forget for a min. about Test scores, Vet Pref, Banding, EMT, Political Pull etc. You are the hiring authority and you have two resumes in front of you. Who would you rather have work for you? The kid right out of high-school or they Guy\Girl that has done the job, has the education, and training?


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## Guest

CJIS said:


> Forget for a min. about Test scores, Vet Pref, Banding, EMT, Political Pull etc. You are the hiring authority and you have two resumes in front of you. Who would you rather have work for you? The kid right out of high-school or they Guy\Girl that has done the job, has the education, and training?


Thinking like a Massachusetts politcian, I'm going to choose whoever had the biggest political dime and offered me the biggest political payback in return for appointing him/her.

*THAT* is reality in Massachusetts politics, whether you want to admit it or not. Cops aren't politicians, and we don't get to choose who we work with. As I said, the current system is far from perfect, but it's an important safeguard against rampant and outrageous nepotism, with the banding system being an open invitation for that.

I understand why the banding system is popular here....it gives hope to people who otherwise wouldn't be considered. Sorry....study harder, or join the military.


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## CJIS

Delta784 said:


> Thinking like a Massachusetts politcian, I'm going to choose whoever had the biggest political dime and offered me the biggest political payback in return for appointing him/her.
> 
> *THAT* is reality in Massachusetts politics, whether you want to admit it or not. Cops aren't politicians, and we don't get to choose who we work with. As I said, the current system is far from perfect, but it's an important safeguard against rampant and outrageous nepotism, with the banding system being an open invitation for that.
> 
> I understand why the banding system is popular here....it gives hope to people who otherwise wouldn't be considered. Sorry....study harder, or join the military.


You are still not letting go of this political pull stuff. Here I will make it easy for you. NONE of my hyperthetical canidates have any Political Pull Non have any political dime to offer you. You won't get any payback in return. Who would you hire. Better yet who would you rather work with?

Study harder? Really?


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## Guest

CJIS said:


> You are still not letting go of this political pull stuff. Here I will make it easy for you. NONE of my hyperthetical canidates have any Political Pull Non have any political dime to offer you. You won't get any payback in return. Who would you hire. Better yet who would you rather work with?


Your scenario is completely unrealistic, because politics infects everything and anything in this state. If you haven't figured that out yet, I don't know what else to tell you....we recently took 4 laterals, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM was a political appointment.



CJIS said:


> Study harder? Really?


Or man up and join the military. Until someone can come up with a foolproof merit-based system that eliminates politics (which MA politicians would never allow), that's reality in the this state.


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## kwflatbed

Delta do you feel like you are :banghead::banghead:?????


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## Guest

kwflatbed said:


> Delta do you feel like you are :banghead::banghead:?????


Besides the nose on your face, there are few things in life more obvious than the influence of politics in the hiring of government jobs in Massachusetts.


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## cousteau

Three new hires, all political. Gotta love the City of "Precedents"


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## CJIS

Delta784 said:


> Your scenario is completely unrealistic, because politics infects everything and anything in this state. If you haven't figured that out yet, I don't know what else to tell you....we recently took 4 laterals, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM was a political appointment.
> 
> Or man up and join the military. Until someone can come up with a foolproof merit-based system that eliminates politics (which MA politicians would never allow), that's reality in the this state.


So in the least you agree however that if there was a way to keep the Political Tricks out of the system you would agree that Merit based hiring (Education, Experience, Test Score etc.) would be good if not better than simply a test score?

BTW I am finding our little conversation here to be pretty good and while we may not be seeing eye to eye 100% it is nice to converse maturely.


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## Guest

Almost every single Full-Time non-CS job that I ever applied for hired at least one candidate that had some kind of connection to the department. I'm sorry CJIS, but I would like some of whatever utopian ganja you're smoking. I say that ' Wid all due respect mon ' [You have to say that with a Jamaican Accent]

I also take a bit o' exception to your statement above in red:


> I understand the High School person needs to start somewhere but like any other job you start at an entry level. If the High-school person does: ( Public Safety, Aux Police, _*Military*_,Special Police\_*Campus Police*_, PI) now they have a more attractive background to become a Full-time PO.


Being 35 years old, working for a campus PD, and currently enlisting in the Military (NOT so I can get hired by a municipality mind-you. I'm beyond CS age). I can assure you that my credentials are far from entry level. If you are looking to get on the job, don't use my job as a stepping stone and be fucking useless as my backup. What's next in your logic? Get on a municipality so that you can be more attractive for MSP?  [Deploying Gasoline]


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## CJIS

5-0 said:


> Almost every single Full-Time non-CS job that I ever applied for hired at least one candidate that had some kind of connection to the department. I'm sorry CJIS, but I would like some of whatever utopian ganja you're smoking. I say that ' Wid all due respect mon ' [You have to say that with a Jamaican Accent]
> 
> I also take a bit o' exception to your statement above in red:
> 
> Being 35 years old, working for a campus PD, and currently enlisting in the Military (NOT so I can get hired by a municipality mind-you. I'm beyond CS age). I can assure you that my credentials are far from entry level. If you are looking to get on the job, don't use my job as a stepping stone and be fucking useless as my backup. What's next in your logic? Get on a municipality so that you can be more attractive for MSP?  [Deploying Gasoline]


Sorry If I was not clear however and I may not have phrases it right.; I was not trying to say Campus PD or Military was entry level as they are in a level of there own as they are somewhat a different career path. I was simply pointing out it was a type of experience that could be considered a good selling point for the candidate.

I know a lot of folks that are in the Military or work For a Campus PD and many have no desire to go to a Muni Dept. That's fine and I know they have made a decent and enjoyable career In the Military or Campus Police. However some people work it for a while and want to try something different.

I don't think or at least hope there are too many people in any one of these positions that would treat the job as ( "It is just a stepping stone so screw you needing backup.") I would hope they would not be useless as backup. we are all working on the same team and have the same goal of going home at uninjured and alive at the end of a shift.

As for the part you stated about at least one being a connection I acknowledge that that happens what I was trying to push was if there was a way to avoid it from happing it would be better than just going by test score alone.


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## Irishpride

Delta784 said:


> We recently took 4 laterals, and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM was a political appointment.


This was the same department that was dead set against hiring off the statewide layoff list, right?


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## Guest

CJIS said:


> So in the least you agree however that if there was a way to keep the Political Tricks out of the system you would agree that Merit based hiring (Education, Experience, Test Score etc.) would be good if not better than simply a test score?


In a perfect world, yes.....unfortunately, this state is about as far from perfect as you're going to find, and it will NEVER happen.



CJIS said:


> BTW I am finding our little conversation here to be pretty good and while we may not be seeing eye to eye 100% it is nice to converse maturely.


I don't take stuff like this personally.


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## 9319

To hell with preference for anything on the CS test besides being a Vet.

One or two of us joined the regular service right out of HS and didn't have the time or luxury to live at home, let mommy and daddy pay for a useless CJ degree, play auxiliary and attend a FT or RI academy.


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## niteowl1970

Javert said:


> let mommy and daddy pay for a useless CJ degree


I'm sure a good many members here that have a CJ degree had to pay their own way and work full-time while going to school part-time or vice-versa. I also wouldn't call going to college to further ones education and achieving a college degree useless. It's been proven to increase earning potential compared to someone with a high school diploma.


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## Guest

Javert said:


> One or two of us joined the regular service right out of HS and didn't have the time or luxury to live at home, let mommy and daddy pay for a useless CJ degree, play auxiliary and attend a FT or RI academy.


I left home when I was 15 to go to a military high school, and effectively never lived with my mommy or daddy for any significant length of time after that. I did "play auxiliary" and attend an R/I academy before I was hired full-time.....AFTER my initial military service, so please don't put down that kind of experience, because I can tell you that you don't get it in the military.

Trust me....they don't teach MGL or MA rights of arrest at the US Army Military Police School.


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## 9319

I believe there is a big difference between a SCHOOL (Acad, cert whatever you want to call it) and EXPERIENCE .

The original poster (who I was directly responding to) believes there should be points for a school. Is it a bad thing to have a academy? No, but I do not believe it should be awarded points for.

Its what you do with that school, cert or training that makes a difference I think. Take your EMT and ride a bus for a few, take your academy and become a PT some place or become a cadet. Utilize your baton, cuffs and spray at a security gig. Then take all of that, mash it up and see what spoken word and recorded merits you have earned. I was referring to simply having a full time academy, not someone who has utilized what they have been taught.


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## niteowl1970

Javert said:


> Utilize your baton, cuffs and spray at a security gig


Good times :yellowcarded:


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## Guest

Javert said:


> I believe there is a big difference between a SCHOOL (Acad, cert whatever you want to call it) and EXPERIENCE .
> 
> The original poster (who I was directly responding to) believes there should be points for a school. Is it a bad thing to have a academy? No, but I do not believe it should be awarded points for.
> 
> Its what you do with that school, cert or training that makes a difference I think. Take your EMT and ride a bus for a few, take your academy and become a PT some place or become a cadet. Utilize your baton, cuffs and spray at a security gig. Then take all of that, mash it up and see what spoken word and recorded merits you have earned. I was referring to simply having a full time academy, not someone who has utilized what they have been taught.


If you go back and read my posts, that's pretty much my point. When you derisively referred to "play auxiliary", you were putting down the very experience you now seem to support. I don't know of any auxiliary programs that will sponsor you for the R/I Academy, then not have you do anything (experience) after you graduate.


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## CJIS

Delta784 said:


> If you go back and read my posts, that's pretty much my point. When you derisively referred to "play auxiliary", you were putting down the very experience you now seem to support. I don't know of any auxiliary programs that will sponsor you for the R/I Academy, then not have you do anything (experience) after you graduate.


I can think of one or two but for the most part you are right. A lot of towns with a AUX\Special\Reserve\PI officers use these officers to augment the full time force and most of these officers while a not usually the first ones dispatched to respond to a call, (though sometimes they are) they are often the second or third car there to lend a hand.

Some towns let these officers to do Traffic enforcement and some even allow them to work paid shifts.


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## mancrush

Can't say that I disagree with any part of your post. I am gaining experience which will eventually turn in to points, I have a LE job that many would kill for and if I want a sure way to get extra points on the test, I should enlist. Vet's deserve their pref 110%. But i'm not pissed off at all, I am very appreciative of the position that I am in. It is just my opinion that if a EMT-B cert gets you pref on the list, than maybe a full-time academy cert should as well. But, at the end of the day, it is what it is.



mpd61 said:


> Mancrush...
> 
> If you have the *MPOC* & work *Full-time *for a *Full-service Campus PD *(armed, making arrests), then you're gaining your experience points (preference). You have a job so don't be too pissed in this economy. Maybe you could enlist and get some more points? just saying.


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## Guest

mancrush said:


> Can't say that I disagree with any part of your post. I am gaining experience which will eventually turn in to points, I have a LE job that many would kill for and if I want a sure way to get extra points on the test, I should enlist. Vet's deserve their pref 110%. But i'm not pissed off at all, I am very appreciative of the position that I am in. It is just my opinion that if a EMT-B cert gets you pref on the list, than maybe a full-time academy cert should as well. But, at the end of the day, it is what it is.


If you have an LE job "that many would kill for", why are you concerned about extra points on an entrance exam? I also have an LE job "that many would kill for", and after I was sworn-in, I promised myself that there was no way in Hell that I would ever again take another entrance exam.


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## mancrush

Yes, there are alot of self-sponsored, academy trained individuals, who are politically connected, live at home with their parents and are "spoon fed". And, I understand why some people may feel negative about these types of individuals... I do.

However, I lived with my fiance on our own, worked a full-time job during the academy, and had no political connection what so ever. I'm sure there was some luck involved, but I feel confident saying that I earned my way in, and worked damn hard to complete it. I am not some whine bag, spoon fed, politically connected, momma's boy on here, crying about how I am entitled.

---------- Post added at 03:55 ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 ----------

I was acknowledging that I have a college LE position that many people would kill for. But like many others, I would like to take another step forward in my career by working for a city department.

I am not overly concerned or upset about academy trained individuals not getting pref on the CS exam. It was a thought that crossed my mind, and I figured I would post this thread in the interest in finding out what other peoples opinions are about it. By no means was this post meant to be a personal whine session about the subject.



Delta784 said:


> If you have an LE job "that many would kill for", why are you concerned about extra points on an entrance exam? I also have an LE job "that many would kill for", and after I was sworn-in, I promised myself that there was no way in Hell that I would ever again take another entrance exam.


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## niteowl1970

mancrush said:


> I was acknowledging that I have a college LE position that many people would kill for.


Locking doors and courtesy transports ? :redcarded:


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## Guest

mancrush said:


> I was acknowledging that I have a college LE position that many people would kill for.


Any police job in Massachusetts in this economy is highly desirable, but I wouldn't classify a job "that many people would kill for" as the last stop on my employment journey.


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## mancrush

haha, pretty much hit that nail on the head. But there is enough people out there who would kill for any LE job. No matter where it is on the ladder.



niteowl1970 said:


> Locking doors and courtesy transports ? :redcarded:


---------- Post added at 04:13 ---------- Previous post was at 04:09 ----------

Yes, I can think of many higher level positions that I would "kill for". Yes any LE position in MA is highly desirable but not are all that any person would "kill for".



Delta784 said:


> Any police job in Massachusetts in this economy is highly desirable, but I wouldn't classify a job "that many people would kill for" as the last stop on my employment journey.


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## Guest

mancrush said:


> Yes, I can think of many higher level positions that I would "kill for". Yes any LE position in MA is highly desirable but not are all that any person would "kill for".


I think that was my point.


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## mancrush

Ok that's fine. I'm sure we all might be a bunch of 3rd shifter's trying to entertain ourselves through a quiet Monday morning... But at this point, i'm sure there is nothing I can post on this thread that wont be questioned, corrected, or taken out of context.


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## Macop

SgtAndySipowicz said:


> Points for *police experience *should be a given. Points for having graduated an academy, no. You don't know anything (how things are really done on the street etc) the day you graduate the academy........


Of course points should be given for having the academy. Its not saying you have knowledge of the street. Its saying hey chiefy, I go the academy, how nice of me to save you a gabillion dollars!

---------- Post added at 13:28 ---------- Previous post was at 13:23 ----------



263FPD said:


> Just coming out of the academy w/o any time on the road makes you morning more then a trained monkey. This isn't meant to disrespect you in any way because I was that trained monkey upon academy graduation. In truth, we all were to some degree. I FTO new hires on my job. Academy gives the newbies enough ammunition to make them dangerous. It is the street experience that will define who they are and what they are capable of. Classroom training is just that, classroom. Being out there and applying what you have learned is something else entirely. I didn't know much about applying the laws and the procedure behind it all until I was on for a year or two. The knowledge was there, but knowing how to use what you know, wasn't. It came with time.
> 
> Should one get preference for having a certificate? I don't know if that is a good idea. Just because someone had signed of on your sponsorship, it doesn't make you a good candidate for a job. I don't really care if you think you deserve it, you very well may. I have several food friends that went the self sponsored route. They started out with a Campus Department and they are now full time municipal cops. One of them had moved on to ICE and hat to go through a FLETC Academy all over again.
> 
> You have hot a job at this tone and that is a huge plus. Leave it alone. Your time will come.


Your right, just because you have the academy doesnt mean you know shit about shit. BUT having the academy is better than nothing. After all if you dont know shit after just going the academy and not working, you sure as hell know less having NEVER going through the academy in the first place.

---------- Post added at 13:32 ---------- Previous post was at 13:28 ----------



Delta784 said:


> No offense, but you're pretty politically naive if you actually believe that. That comes from someone who was screwed over by the straight exam score system, never mind the ridiculous "banding" system....it was nothing more than to create wiggle room for political games. If you're not going to go by exam score, why bother having an exam system?


Bruce, I would say that you both make solid points. The nepotism is alive and well NO MATTER what system is used. But there are exceptions to every rule. This is why I like L.E in the south much better, there is the same game but much les of it!


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## Guest

mancrush said:


> Ok that's fine. I'm sure we all might be a bunch of 3rd shifter's trying to entertain ourselves through a quiet Monday morning... But at this point, i'm sure there is nothing I can post on this thread that wont be questioned, corrected, or taken out of context.


The exit is that way ------------------------------->


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## mancrush

Thanks for a good debate.


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