# Justified police shooting?



## Gil (Jun 15, 1998)

Before you watch the two attached videos, please read this.

*Be sure to watch the videos in proper sequence (first #1, then #2)*.

These are videos of an officer-involved shooting. Watch the first video (from
the on board dash cam of the third cruiser involved in the high-speed chase)
and make your best determination on whether this is a "good shooting" or not.
Be sure to watch the pertinent part of the video several times.
Once you have made your initial determination, watch video #2. This is
from the on board camera of the second cruiser that was involved in the
high-speed chase. Does this change your mind?

Moral of the story: Next time we see the video of the police using deadly
force on the 6 O'clock news, don't jump to any conclusions that the
officer was not justified in his decision. Good training video.

Video 1 (Watch first)...
http://www.magnumland.com/Videos/Pol...otSuspect1.wmv

then watch this one...
http://www.magnumland.com/Videos/Pol...otSuspect2.wmv


So... what did you think after watching the first one?

Then the second?

Remember the moral of the story


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

If all you saw was the first one, the dept would be paying out $$$. The second one gives a better perspective. Suspect seemed to be non-compliant with a weapon = good shooting.


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## sempergumby (Nov 14, 2003)

Good god........ If those two videos do not open your eyes nothing will.


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## copcop (Mar 17, 2006)

I really like these two videos, but someone showed me something in the second one. It doesn't really change how I feel about if it was a good shoot or not. But if you look really, really close - the bad guy has a cell phone, not a gun.

Still, the whole totality of circumstances and what would a reasonable officer in that situation believe etc........


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

A cell phone? it looked like a gun to me: sorry, I'll not armchair quarterback a police officers decision made in fractions of a second. The two perspectives show that one video may not tell the whole story. IMHO, good shoot.

In any event, the good guys went home to their families and the bad guy went to final judgement.

Case closed.


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## copcop (Mar 17, 2006)

dcs2244 said:


> A cell phone? it looked like a gun to me: sorry, I'll not armchair quarterback a police officers decision made in fractions of a second. The two perspectives show that one video may not tell the whole story. IMHO, good shoot.
> 
> In any event, the good guys went home to their families and the bad guy went to final judgement.
> 
> Case closed.


I wasnt armchair q'backing his decision, I said it didnt change my opinion on if it was a good shoot or not - sheesh....did you read where I wrote about "totality of circumstances and what would a reasonable officer in that situation believe etc"...all I am saying is look close....I thought it was a gun too - but it seems to be a cell phone...that being said - It is a good shoot, cuz everyone thinks it is a gun


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## VTCOP (May 2, 2002)

Good shoot period. Yes, just watching Car 3 would have raised some serious questions. THank GOD! There was camera #2.


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## Nachtwächter (Dec 9, 2005)

Here is a nice video about cell phones.

http://www.mobidirect.com/cellgun.mpg


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## USMCTrooper (Oct 23, 2003)

Forget if it was a cell phone or not. Focus on his _intent._ How he held it and pointed it not once but twice. If you didn't tell a lay person it was a phone, I'm certain they would all think the same thing- silver handgun.


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## copcop (Mar 17, 2006)

USMCTrooper said:


> Forget if it was a cell phone or not. Focus on his _intent._ How he held it and pointed it not once but twice. If you didn't tell a lay person it was a phone, I'm certain they would all think the same thing- silver handgun.


The two videos are great educationally, when you watch the first one, you kinda think "oh shit" and you just know that the liberal press would love to show just that one angle. Then you watch the second one and you cant believe how much you were missing from that first angle. Good Shoot....and thank god for the second dash cam.

I only wanted everyone to be educated further and to show that what you saw or thought you saw, wasn't really what was there (again). As I said initially, the shoot is still good...but it is funny how from the safety of your computer screen you would SWEAR the bad guy was pointing a gun, I actually thought I saw shells flying from it. If WE saw a gun, what do you think those officers saw? again....good shoot


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## Pvt. Cowboy (Jan 26, 2005)

USMCTrooper said:


> Forget if it was a cell phone or not. Focus on his _intent._ How he held it and pointed it not once but twice. If you didn't tell a lay person it was a phone, I'm certain they would all think the same thing- silver handgun.


Silver handgun... Bingo. That's actually the first thing I thought, was "Holy shit, this guy has a .357!!" He pointed it, dropped it down, then swung around and pointed it again, that's when they took him down...

Pause the video when the timer in the upper right hand corner says 114... Cell phones are usually held with one hand, against one's ear... Not held with two hands outstretched and aiming at the police...

In my very humble civilian opinion, clean shoot.


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## Barbrady (Aug 5, 2004)

His intent was obviously to go out suicide by cop and it was a good shoot, even if he got shot in the back.....lol.


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## benike84 (Apr 11, 2006)

What's sad is that a few months ago I saw the first video on another website and they were showing it as an example of police brutality. Too bad they weren't telling the whole story and showing the other video.


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## ChiefJoe (Jun 14, 2005)

Jeez I don't know. If it was a gun, then I'd say good shoot. 

But if it was a cell phone, I just saw two police shoot a guy about 10 times in the back as he was walking away from them. If he's unarmed and walking away, the threat has stopped for the moment. Certainly if he turns around and has a gun pointed at you the threat is there. I just don't know.


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## Tango (Nov 28, 2004)

ChiefJoe said:


> Jeez I don't know. If it was a gun, then I'd say good shoot.
> 
> But if it was a cell phone, I just saw two police shoot a guy about 10 times in the back as he was walking away from them. If he's unarmed and walking away, the threat has stopped for the moment. Certainly if he turns around and has a gun pointed at you the threat is there. I just don't know.


At least 2 different times he pointed the "gun" at 2 different officers, even if it was a 3 Muskateers bar- the threat hasnt stopped for the moment- its the perceived threat/intention of how that cell phone is being used- the BG obviously wanted them to think it was a gun, therefore he got capped


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## Tango (Nov 28, 2004)

Tango said:


> At least 2 different times he pointed the "gun" at 2 different officers, even if it was a 3 Muskateers bar- the threat hasnt stopped for the moment- its the perceived threat/intention of how that cell phone is being used- the BG obviously wanted them to think it was a gun, therefore he got capped


Do we know that is was a cell phone? You guys are good- I watched it a bunch of times and still cant tell the difference. Also, the first officer to fire did so after the BG turned and aimed very quickly at the other PO, split second decision to protect another PO...anyways great discussional videos, thanks


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## O-302 (Jan 1, 2006)

ChiefJoe said:


> Jeez I don't know. If it was a gun, then I'd say good shoot.
> 
> But if it was a cell phone, I just saw two police shoot a guy about 10 times in the back as he was walking away from them. If he's unarmed and walking away, the threat has stopped for the moment. Certainly if he turns around and has a gun pointed at you the threat is there. I just don't know.


The United States Supreme Court has declared that a particular use of force should only be judged from the perspective of a reasonable officer on the scene, rather than by 20/20 hindsight creating the ideal officer-citizen encounter. _Graham v. Connor_, 490 U.S. at 396.

...therefore it doesn't matter if it was a firearm or a cell phone..the manner in which it was used clearly justified the Officers' response.


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## ChiefJoe (Jun 14, 2005)

I agree that the threat is there when he's pointing the gun/phone at the officers... absolutely. But when he turns and is walking away, that threat has ceased for the moment. If he turns around and points it at them again, the threat is back on. 

If he was facing them the whole time pointing the gun/phone at the officers, I'd say the shoot is good open and shut. But it seems that a majority of the shots come when he's facing away from them. That combined with the fact that it might be a phone and not a gun makes it questionable in my opinion.


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## copcop (Mar 17, 2006)

ChiefJoe said:


> I agree that the threat is there when he's pointing the gun/phone at the officers... absolutely. But when he turns and is walking away, that threat has ceased for the moment. If he turns around and points it at them again, the threat is back on.
> 
> If he was facing them the whole time pointing the gun/phone at the officers, I'd say the shoot is good open and shut. But it seems that a majority of the shots come when he's facing away from them. That combined with the fact that it might be a phone and not a gun makes it questionable in my opinion.


You, my friend are a dumb fuck who obviously has no idea what it is like to make split second decisions that will affect other people for a life time....and you obviously have no idea what it means to "protect and serve"....you are a PUSSY who likes to make decisions from the safety of your AOL IM or your "My Space site" - if you were standing in front of me I would "bitch slap" you.....for that is what you obviously deserve....


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## copcop (Mar 17, 2006)

ChiefJoe said:


> Jeez I don't know. If it was a gun, then I'd say good shoot.
> 
> But if it was a cell phone, I just saw two police shoot a guy about 10 times in the back as he was walking away from them. If he's unarmed and walking away, the threat has stopped for the moment. Certainly if he turns around and has a gun pointed at you the threat is there. I just don't know.


You are a PUSSY too!! If I was to aim a cell phone at you after a 3 mile pusuit would you be able to tell the difference? Do you want to live tonight? Or would you rather die? Fuck the bad guys and fuck you...you fucking liberal piece of shit....god, it's so easy to figure this out in between IM's and "MY space"...if you really have some balls.....strap on the gun belt and try to survive a night and a fight.....you fuck


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## tommym27 (May 31, 2006)

Quote:
Originally Posted by *ChiefJoe*
_Jeez I don't know. If it was a gun, then I'd say good shoot. 

But if it was a cell phone, I just saw two police shoot a guy about 10 times in the back as he was walking away from them. If he's unarmed and walking away, the threat has stopped for the moment. Certainly if he turns around and has a gun pointed at you the threat is there. I just don't know. _

It's not a game of red light, green light...just because he turned away for a second, doesnt mean shit. Action is faster than reaction. he aimed what appears to be a firearm at cops, not once but twice, what more constitutes a serious threat?


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## JoninNH (Jan 29, 2004)

Monday morning quarterbacking by ChiefTrollJoe...

This isn't like the old westerns where the bad guy always wears black and the good guy always wears a white hat... it's real life. Turning away from the officers momentarially has absofuckinglootley nothing to do with whether its a good shoot or not. The subject pointed what a reasonable person would dissern as a firearm at the officers twice.

What do you do for work Chief? I hope you're not a police chief in New England... if so, please, do us all a favor and advertise what department you oversee and we can stay the fuck away.



ChiefJoe said:


> I agree that the threat is there when he's pointing the gun/phone at the officers... absolutely. But when he turns and is walking away, that threat has ceased for the moment. If he turns around and points it at them again, the threat is back on.
> 
> If he was facing them the whole time pointing the gun/phone at the officers, I'd say the shoot is good open and shut. But it seems that a majority of the shots come when he's facing away from them. That combined with the fact that it might be a phone and not a gun makes it questionable in my opinion.


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## copcop (Mar 17, 2006)

JoninNH said:


> Monday morning quarterbacking by ChiefTrollJoe...


I should have known, is he the board troll? Did I get all fired up for a simple troll?


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## ChiefJoe (Jun 14, 2005)

Don't worry CopCop, I know all about what it's like to "strap on the belt every night" Great replies too... littered with 4-letter words. Way to react like a big boy.

I'm pretty sure the original thread asked for my "opinion", not "agree with everyone else's opinion". Sorry if it might not meet yours 100%

I never said the officers were wrong, I never said lock them up and throw away the key. But your mature well-thought out arguement has helped me to see the light. Smarten up and learn to argue like an adult.


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## O-302 (Jan 1, 2006)

ChiefJoe said:


> Jeez I don't know. If it was a gun, then I'd say good shoot.
> 
> But if it was a cell phone, I just saw two police shoot a guy about 10 times in the back as he was walking away from them. If he's unarmed and walking away, the threat has stopped for the moment. Certainly if he turns around and has a gun pointed at you the threat is there. I just don't know.


It's been said before, "action is faster than reaction". The bad guy doesn't get another chance to point a weapon at or shoot at the good guy...no matter which way he is facing at the time of the shoot....this ain't no video game..

If you are good enough to distinguish between a cellphone and a firearm in a situation like this one, which I doubt, then refer to Nachtwachter's earlier post....


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## PBiddy35 (Aug 27, 2004)

There is not a doubt in my mind that subject intended to present whatever he had as a weapon and that the officer on the left feared for his safety. You see right before scumbag A hits the deck that the officer on the left ducks for his life as the item is directed at him. Officer on the right immediately fires with stopping power at the subject. Subject whipped around so fast that the first shots let him drop in the walking away position.


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## Goose (Dec 1, 2004)

ChiefJoe said:


> Jeez I don't know. If it was a gun, then I'd say good shoot.
> 
> But if it was a cell phone, I just saw two police shoot a guy about 10 times in the back as he was walking away from them. If he's unarmed and walking away, the threat has stopped for the moment. Certainly if he turns around and has a gun pointed at you the threat is there. I just don't know.


Do you remember in the academy when they teach that it takes an officer (even if they have a weapon drawn) a minimum of one second for the brain to interpret what they are seeing, process it, choose a course of action, and go through the motions to fire, even when already drawn?

Whereas this guy can go..."okay, I'm going to swing around and fire at the first thing I see", and if the officers even wait for for his body to swing around, both bullets are probably in the air at the same time?

Remember, the guy already knows what he wants to do, and considering that he's probably committed to it, once he executes his plan, it's too late.

Stay safe and come home.


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

Good shoot. As stated, he pointed a SILVER cell phone like a gun at the Officers. The second time he pointed it was quite fast and menacing. After a several mile pursuit the Officers adreneline is running quite high, then their system is shocked by the subject wielding what appeared to be a gun. Regardless of what the item was, the subject intended to place Officers in fear that he had a gun. Who knows whether or not it was suicide or the idiot just thought that they would just let him go if he played he had a gun.

What if you thought "hey, I think it's only a cell phone, I won't shoot".. Then _*BANG*_, you and/or your partner is dead. How would you explain that you thought the silver thing in his hand he was waving was just a cellphone?? Explain it to his/her wife/husband?... to your fellow Officers?

We can all form our opinions, but I think we share the same thought : "It would suck to be in that situation."


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