# Civil service ruling in judge’s hands



## kwflatbed (Dec 29, 2004)

*Minority officers say test is biased*

By Maria Cramer

Globe Staff / February 2, 2011

The future of the civil service exam used to hire sergeants in police departments across Massachusetts, which many Latino and black candidates say discriminates against them, is now in the hands of a federal district court judge in Boston.
Judge George O'Toole heard closing arguments yesterday in a case, brought by 44 minority patrol officers from seven different departments across the state, who have taken the exam since 2005 and have not received promotions. They argue that the test, which is mostly multiple-choice questions, is inherently discriminatory because minorities historically do worse on such exams compared with white and Asian candidates.
"The exams are made specifically to keep us from attaining our goals,'' said Lawrence patrol officer Pedro Lopez, one of the plaintiffs, who was among dozens of officers watching the proceedings in US District Court yesterday. "Some of the questions they ask have no relevance to the job that we do.''

Full Story:
Civil service ruling in judge's hands - The Boston Globe


----------



## HousingCop (May 14, 2004)

*Gee, I am horrible in math. Anybody have a name of a good lawyer so I can sue MIT because they won't make a professor of quantum physics there? When I win that lawsuit, I am going to sue for tenure and back pay too. A 10% finders fee is being offered here...... HC*


----------



## TRPDiesel (Nov 28, 2008)

What would be a better format? Essay type answers? I am kinda miffed here on how multiple choice questions are a bad format. I mean not for nothing, they give you the answer-You just have to figure out which one fits. 
The initial civil service test to be hired in the first place is of the same format. Is the next step to change that to scenario based testing? That ought to make the test about worth at least 500 bucks....


----------



## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

I'm a little surprised at how many people are so willing to stand up and say "I'm dumber than that guy, but its genetic, so you should give me the job anyway." 

Uh... no.


----------



## jettsixx (Dec 10, 2005)

I think they should just make everyone a supervisor that way no one will feel bad and everyone will be equal. Just like giving trophies to everyone we dont want to hurt feelings.


----------



## mpguy (Oct 7, 2009)

How bout lowest score gets the job... would that be better/fair?


----------



## Guest (Feb 2, 2011)

I've seen plenty of minority supervisors....how did they manage to overcome this "biased" testing method?

Study harder next time.


----------



## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

if you get hired with a score of 70 you might as well get promoted with a score of 70, right ?


----------



## Macop (May 2, 2002)

I'm black and have to say that these Officers make me feel seriously fucking embarrassed. I happen to think its ridiculous. I don’t agree with any extra points unless its for being a cop already and have training that can be used on the job directly, and points for VETS. And I don’t agree with absolution for anyone! How the fuck is a multiple choice exam racist, its almost funny if it weren’t so pathetic.


----------



## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

Delta784 said:


> I've seen plenty of minority supervisors....how did they manage to overcome this "biased" testing method?
> 
> Study harder next time.


Damn right. What a slam this is to the minority officers who actually made it with the system in place. I don't mean to speak for anyone other than myself, but if some douche claimed, say, he should get an extra 5 points on the LSAT because it was apparently biased towards military veterans, I want to kick his teeth in.


----------



## Guest (Feb 5, 2011)

Not being a minority I just can't understand the way of thinking in these lawsuits. In my mind if you can't read and comprehend english how can you expect to be a supervisor. Law and it's enforcement is a very complicated subject, it makes no sense to have supervisors that understand it less than patrol officers. I do believe that police departments should be a repesenative of their community, but there has to be a better way than promoting the guys that just pass a test and don't excel on it.


----------



## POSD (May 21, 2010)

mpguy said:


> How bout lowest score gets the job... would that be better/fair?


Lowest passing score? Com'on....I think we can all agree that the highest score should get the job, I mean the highest failing score!

On a serious note, I would have issue if the dept. was by passing high scoring minorities to get to others but we are all grown men/women, you know what the format of the test is, study, practice.

I am curious, what about doing a study where you give two tests, same questions on each test but in two formats. Whites and Asians receive the multiple choice question format. The minorities in question get the same questions but have to write in the answer....

...and for the sake of argument, have all questions be job related.


----------



## wlct (Oct 17, 2008)

To give two test is absolutely ridiculous. That would definitely be subject to a lawsuit as being unequal. The people that can't pass the test or score high enough shouldn't be promoted. Did that ever occur to you? Like everything else, if some group or individuals can't do something(PT test, exams etc..)just lower the standards. Why is it that some people score very high on these exams? Did it ever occur to you that just maybe they actually study hard for the exam and put the effort in to it.


----------



## Macop (May 2, 2002)

Well said wlct.


----------



## SpfldCop2369 (Mar 8, 2011)

I feel the need to reply to this garbage. I took the 2005 test for sergeant and only scored a 77. It must be civil service's fault that I scored so low and not the fact that I started looking at the books two months before the exam. So two years later, and several hundred study hours, I took the 2007 exam and can you believe it, I scored a 96.25 on the written portion. Wow again it must be civil service who made the test easy for us. After being promoted to Sgt. in 2008 I had the chance to take the LT test in 2010 and can you believe I scored an 83 on that god awful test. Again must be civil service doing something to make the test adverse for minorities. Its funny two test in a row I scored well in my department where many good test takers failed. And yes I am a minority. Its a slap in the face to all the minority officers who spent time in the books and scored well. After so many years of wanting to be treated as equals we are now claiming racism instead of putting in the time. Its funny that I was never contacted by this group of officers. Hmmmmm, maybe my testimony would not have help. Listen my fellow minority officers stop the crying, you are really making us look like a bunch of whinning idiots. These are multiple choice exams and in no way adverse to you getting promoted. The only thing that is adverse to you is YOUR own inability to comprehend the material!


----------



## Guest (Mar 9, 2011)

I signed up for the 2001 sergeant's exam; I didn't buy a single book or study for one minute, I just wanted to see what the exam was like. It turned out that the test was the day after my twins were born, so I didn't bother to take it.

Looking back on it, I should have taken it, then sued because I obviously should have been given extra points due to my wife's pregnancy and delivery.

What a load of shit this is.


----------



## POSD (May 21, 2010)

wlct said:


> To give two test is absolutely ridiculous. That would definitely be subject to a lawsuit as being unequal. The people that can't pass the test or score high enough shouldn't be promoted. Did that ever occur to you? Like everything else, if some group or individuals can't do something(PT test, exams etc..)just lower the standards. Why is it that some people score very high on these exams? Did it ever occur to you that just maybe they actually study hard for the exam and put the effort in to it.


Hey, I agree with you. I was trying to be very sarcastic, but maybe I was too suttle.


----------



## TacEntry (Nov 29, 2006)

Hey, why put in effort and study and work hard? Just play the race card.


----------



## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

The other main issue if this takes is it causes others to question the percived legitimacy of ALL minority promotions, not just those that are done with new standards.

Since the deliberations of most promotions are made somewhat quietly and since nOObs coming on don't necessarily know a super's date of rank, others wil unfairly question whether a supervisor who otherwise earned his rank fairly was a reciepient of the system.

Kinda reminds me of when Clarence Thomas graduated from Yale Law and remembers law firms treating him as if he hadn't earned it, despite not having any evidence that was the case.


----------



## Mr Scribbles (Jul 7, 2012)

FACT!: One of the Boston guys involved in the lawsuit went to a suburban HS on the METCO program, and is an attorney, oh and he's also a SGT too, so how can he have standing in a lawsuit?
Two simple solutions;
1. Give list of books that no one has to read. Give all candidates the questions. Give all candidates an answer sheet. Have open book test. Everyone gets 100%, and the Chief can pick who he wants.
2. Black paper, white ink


----------

