# Red light question- settle a bet.



## SOT (Jul 30, 2004)

Ok so you pull up to a red light, there is no "no turn on red sign"...but then you look and see an arrow for the turn signal for a right turn.

Can you make a right turn on the red arrow?

I say no because the arrow is the overall controling signal. It's in place because there are multiple turn arrows and traffic patterns, so it controls the turn....

Am I right or wrong?


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## Dr.Magoo (May 2, 2002)

No. You can't turn.


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## s1w (Sep 12, 2005)

No turn until its green, thats correct


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## fscpd907 (Jun 5, 2003)

A steady red arrow means the same as a steady red, circular signal. The steady red arrow applies only to vehicles intending to proceed in the direction of the arrow. The same rules for "turning on red" apply.


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## LKat20 (May 7, 2004)

I have to say that you CAN turn on a red arrow. The red arrow denotes the fact that the lane that the vehicle is in can only turn right. For instance, an off-ramp from the highway that only allows you to turn right onto the main road. The reason that the light is an arrow is the same reason that there is a white arrow in the road; you can only go right. As stated in FSCPD907's post, the same rules of "turning on red" apply (taken from the RMV's Driver's Manual). Another thing to consider is that I have seen stop lights that are arrows and "No Turn on Red" signs posted at them. Why would there only sometimes be "No Turn on Red" signs at these lights if you can't do it anyway?


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## SSPO#11 (Jan 11, 2003)

I just do not agree with you. There would be no point to the red arrow if this was the case. The light would be blinking yellow or maybe instead of the light a yield sign. But it's just my opinion........can someone just end this with perhaps a statute?

#11


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## LKat20 (May 7, 2004)

Taken from the CPS Motor Vehicle Law Textbook (Pat Rogers):

In C. 89 S. 8, the law reads "At any intersection on ways, as defined in section one of chapter ninety, in which vehicular traffic is facing a steady red ***indication* in a traffic control signal, the driver of a vehicle which is stopped as close as practicable at the entrance to the crosswalk or the near side of the intersections or, if none, then at the entrance to the intersecion in obedience to such red or stop signal, may make either (1) a right turn or (2) if on a one-way street may make a left turn to another one-way street, but shall yield the right-of-way to pedestrians and other traffic proceeding as directed by the signal at said intersection."

This states a steady red "indication"; it does not specify a circular or arrow light. So I believe that you can turn on a red arrow.


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## JoninNH (Jan 29, 2004)

You learn something new every day.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2005)

Looks to me like it's open to interpretation and *I *would be writing a citation for that ALL DAY until I was called on the carpet for it........


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## Clouseau (Mar 9, 2004)

The reason the signal is there is for the times when the arrow will be green to turn right, yet the straight through traffic will have to stop for their signal. The green arrow allows all the traffic in the right lane to keep moving for the right turn.
When red, can turn after stopping, unless sign prohibits.

Sniper, I disagree. It's pretty embarrassing to be called out in open court when the operator you wrote understands, or has a better interpretation of the law than the officer who wrote the citation. Not only embarrassing, but the judges tend to remember those with less credibility.


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## USMCTrooper (Oct 23, 2003)

This is a coincidence. This question actually came out in a publication from the RMV & our Traffic Programs section in Sept. Unless its posted "No Turn on Red", a red arrow is a red light. Vehicles can turn.

Stop. look, make a right turn.


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## Guest (Nov 6, 2005)

Thanks for the clarification Troop........ and Clouseau my reference to getting called on the carpet didn't specifically mean in court....... I meant till someone could say for sure that it was one way or the other...... sorry for the miscommunication. This whole topic reminds me of a converstaion I had last week with someone over the correct fine for 89/9. lol


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## SOT (Jul 30, 2004)

DAMN IT! This is gonna cost me a trip to Ikea!



USMCTrooper said:


> This is a coincidence. This question actually came out in a publication from the RMV & our Traffic Programs section in Sept. Unless its posted "No Turn on Red", a red arrow is a red light. Vehicles can turn.
> 
> Stop. look, make a right turn.


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## jackryan (Apr 11, 2004)

I'm confused...wasn't the original question "can you make the turn if there is a sign that says no turn on red"?? I agree you can make the turn if there is no sign there, but if there is a sign that says you can't - then that over rides the "right on red" law.


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## SOT (Jul 30, 2004)

Ok so you pull up to a red light, there is *no* "no turn on red sign"...but then you look and see an arrow for the turn signal for a right turn.

Can you make a right turn on the red arrow?



jackryan said:


> I'm confused...wasn't the original question "can you make the turn if there is a sign that says no turn on red"?? I agree you can make the turn if there is no sign there, but if there is a sign that says you can't - then that over rides the "right on red" law.


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## Guest (Dec 8, 2005)

SOT_II said:


> Ok so you pull up to a red light, there is *no* "no turn on red sign"...but then you look and see an arrow for the turn signal for a right turn.
> 
> Can you make a right turn on the red arrow?


Yes...



USMCTrooper said:


> This is a coincidence. This question actually came out in a publication from the RMV & our Traffic Programs section in Sept. Unless its posted "No Turn on Red", a red arrow is a red light. Vehicles can turn.
> 
> Stop. look, make a right turn.


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

Sounds like SOT_II got some flak from the Mrs' for blowing a light. "IKEA, here we come". LOL :lol:


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## Goose (Dec 1, 2004)

Heck, you can make a left turn on a red left turn arrow IF there is not a 'no turn on red' sign posted, you are on a one-way street, and you are turning onto a one way street.

Now that would have been a good trivia question. 

The only one that I can think of off the top of my head where you can do this (and it's actually a left arrow) is 2nd Avenue and Winter Street in Waltham.


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## Guest (Dec 9, 2005)

frank said:


> Heck, you can make a left turn on a red left turn arrow IF there is not a 'no turn on red' sign posted, you are on a one-way street, and you are turning onto a one way street.
> 
> Now that would have been a good trivia question.
> 
> The only one that I can think of off the top of my head where you can do this (and it's actually a left arrow) is 2nd Avenue and Winter Street in Waltham.


Theres quite a few streets in Bahstin like that too.


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## LenS (Nov 9, 2004)

The last time I looked the intersection with WInter St and 2nd Ave in Waltham was posted "no left on red". It was the first such sign I had ever seen.

On Thanksgiving I saw a Brockton officer stop and cite a car in front of him take a left on red (I think it was Belmont St, one-way at that point) onto Main St. It was not posted to the contrary.

I'm willing to bet that if you polled every municipal officer in MA, probably 80-90% don't know that left on red after stop is legal. I know that when I was a Special PO I had asked damn near every officer I worked with about that, and none of them were aware of this law. I was trying to find out if it was legal.


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## Guest (Jul 13, 2006)

A red arrow is not equivalent to a red circle. You are not supposed to take a red on a right arrow. My late father was in the MA legislature when right on red became legal, and he told me this.


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## lofu (Feb 25, 2006)

LenS said:


> The last time I looked the intersection with WInter St and 2nd Ave in Waltham was posted "no left on red". It was the first such sign I had ever seen.
> 
> On Thanksgiving I saw a Brockton officer stop and cite a car in front of him take a left on red (I think it was Belmont St, one-way at that point) onto Main St. It was not posted to the contrary.
> 
> I'm willing to bet that if you polled every municipal officer in MA, probably 80-90% don't know that left on red after stop is legal. I know that when I was a Special PO I had asked damn near every officer I worked with about that, and none of them were aware of this law. I was trying to find out if it was legal.


Are you refering to a left from a one way street onto another? If so then I must be in that 10-20%.


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

lofu said:


> Are you refering to a left from a one way street onto another? If so then I must be in that 10-20%.


the percentage is climbing, it is mentioned specifically in ch. 89-8


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## Irish Wampanoag (Apr 6, 2003)

Coming from a one way turning on to a one way left or right (going the the right way of course) is legal so long there in no turn on red signs.


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## copcar65 (Aug 16, 2004)

I researched this issue recently because of a ticket written by one of our officers.

The industry standard (traffic engineers, traffic signal companies etc) is that you can not take a right turn on a red arrow. The Manual on Uniform Traffic COntrol Devices says that if right turns are allowed on a red arrow, a sign reading right turn on red arrow after stop should be posted. This would indicat you can't normally turn right on a red arrow. (Page 36 of the attached site)
http://mutcd.fhwa.dot.gov/pdfs/2003/Ch2B.pdf

Ma law however doesn't follow that. The law does not seperate arrows from regular lights. Read page 4 of Chapter four of the driver's manual (or page 136 of the full manual). I know it is not the law but since the law is silent on red arrows I think this will have to do.
http://www.mass.gov/rmv/dmanual/chapter4.pdf

I think that makes it pretty clear if you consider the Feds saying you can't but Mass saying you can is clear!!! ](*,) .

Paul
Copcar65


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