# Falmouth Legislator seeks to license Police Officers



## 9X19

By Ethan Genter

Posted Apr. 2, 2016 at 2:00 AM
Updated Apr 2, 2016 at 7:20 AM

Eastham Police Chief Edward Kulhawik said he was "shocked" by the lack of across-the-board training standards for Massachusetts police officers when he came to the Cape in 2009.
Kulhawik previously worked as an officer and police chief in Connecticut, a state that uses the Peace Officer Standards and Training system.
In Connecticut, officers had to finish a set amount of training in a three-year cycle, and all incoming officers had to meet the same set of standards before going to police academies, he said.
Officers who committed violations or did not finish training could be decertified, he said.

Massachusetts is one of only six states that do not use the POST system. State Rep. David Vieira, R-Falmouth, hopes to change that.
Vieira is leading the charge with a fellow legislator to form a commission whose goal would be to make policing standards and training mandates uniform across the state and require police officers to be licensed.
Officers who engaged in misconduct, such as brutality or sexual harassment, could lose their license.
Vieira, a former deputy with the Barnstable County Sheriff's Office, said the system would help with "investing in the training and assisting officers so they know the latest and the greatest."
A briefing Tuesday drew supporters and critics of the bill to form the commission, which would go on to develop the means of oversight for the POST system.
If approved, the commission would be made up of representatives from several agencies, including the Massachusetts Municipal Police Training Committee, Massachusetts District Attorney's Association, Massachusetts Police Association and Massachusetts Harbormasters Association.
"It's so long overdue," Kulhawik said.

Roger Goldman, a professor of law at Saint Louis University School of Law, who has worked with other states on putting the POST system into place, said the standards were "not unusual" in the context of other licensed professions, such as doctors and lawyers, whose licenses also can be revoked for misconduct.
"It's sort of an oddity that Massachusetts regulates in this way virtually every profession and occupation but not law enforcement officers, and given their power to arrest, search and use deadly force you'd think that they would be the first to be so regulated," Goldman said.
The concept is that anyone entering law enforcement would meet the same minimum standards for hiring and training, Vieira said, which also would help the process when officers moved to other departments.
Vieira said he did not think the POST system would be much different from the state's current guidelines.
"I don't expect it's going to be radically different," he said.
Sandwich Police Chief Peter Wack, who like Kulhawik worked in law enforcement in Connecticut before coming to the Cape, said he supported making Massachusetts a POST state and would welcome the uniformity. Yarmouth Police Chief Frank Frederickson said he was in favor of forming the special commission.

Bourne Police Chief Dennis Woodside, however, wrote in an email that he was familiar with POST "and I have not been impressed so far." He wrote he was not immediately able to comment further. 
The state currently has training guidelines, but money can be an issue. 
"This is fine," Wack said, "but how do we pay for it?" Wack said he tries to send officers to training as much as possible, but sometimes the funding just isn't there.
Raymond McGrath, legislative director of the National Association of Government Employees, attended the briefing and said his organization opposed the bill. McGrath argued that while improvements could be made to the current system, the solution would lie with the Legislature providing more funding to support departments.
"The Legislature has the power and they're not aggressive enough in providing funding for police training," McGrath said.
"We're at a crossroads with just how we do community policing," said state Rep. Russell Holmes, D-Boston, the co-sponsor for the special commission resolve. "Funding is always there for things that you think are important."
_- State House News Service contributed to this report. Follow Ethan Genter on Twitter: @EthanGenterCCT. 
Falmouth legislator seeks to license police officers

_


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## 9X19

Looks like a POST system could be in the works....


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## PBC FL Cop

Interesting!


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## mpd61

Yes this is very interesting.
Yes we ALL know the politics of MPTC v. Sheriff v. SSPO. v Troopers etc, etc, etc.....And how it relates to training.
But for Chiefs like Kulhawik, Hicks and others suddenly acting like half the police officers in Massachusetts are uncertified, unregulated, unlicensed, unqualified, and therefore unsatisfactory to serve is just speak. 
_Officers who engaged in misconduct, such as brutality or sexual harassment, could lose their license._
Yes Mr. Viera, because right now there is no mechanism in place to discipline these officers cuz they're "unlicensed"
_Vieira said he did not think the POST system would be much different from the state's current guidelines.
"I don't expect it's going to be radically different," he said._
I don't know, Chief Kulhawik was "shocked" coming all the way from Connecticut, by our current guidelines. 
_Bourne Police Chief Dennis Woodside, however, wrote in an email that he was familiar with POST "and I have not been impressed so far."_ 
Don't expect to be on that Mass Chiefs POST Committee roster, when its formed Dennnis! Good man!


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## Goose

Something important to note that it is "_a_ POST system" not "_the _POST system". Not all the states have the same requirements and guidelines. Those things would still need working out.


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## 9X19

I just read the bill text on MA legislation site. Im pleased to see all aspects of law enforcement will have reps at the meetings. Specifically I'm in supporting this because I want the MA sheriffs to give us deputy sheriffs the training we deserve. In my county we are all duel deputy sheriff/correctional officers. However to work outside the jail you need at least the reserve intermittent. I have over 750 hrs of training combined (356 hr reserve/ intermittent and 400 hr county corrections academy). I would like to see a combined training academy to give us a deputy sheriff specific academy and license. Its time we get modernized with the sheriffs. Theres no reason a full time deputy sheriff should be deputized without proper training.


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## pahapoika

9X19 said:


> I just read the bill text on MA legislation site. Im pleased to see all aspects of law enforcement will have reps at the meetings. Specifically I'm in supporting this because I want the MA sheriffs to give us deputy sheriffs the training we deserve. In my county we are all duel deputy sheriff/correctional officers. However to work outside the jail you need at least the reserve intermittent. I have over 750 hrs of training combined (356 hr reserve/ intermittent and 400 hr county corrections academy). I would like to see a combined training academy to give us a deputy sheriff specific academy and license. Its time we get modernized with the sheriffs. Theres no reason a full time deputy sheriff should be deputized without proper training.


With the exception of K-9, apprehension, maybe transportation there's no real call for it. As one former member use to mention there are no unincorporated areas in Mass.

Don't get me wrong. It would be great for people getting some experience behind the wall, attend the full time academy and move on to a PD , but it looks like an uphill battle with most sheriffs not interested in providing the training.


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## felony

Sheriffs just want to be deputized to work details. There is no other benefit. I am in favor of merging the sheriffs with the DOC. RI has sheriffs but they only perform court room security and transport inmates from ACI to court. It will never happen because being a Sheriff (not deputy or CO) in MA is stepping stone for a politician to bigger and better. In RI we have POST, but we also have a Law Enforcement Officer Bill of Rights. Which guarantees us specific protections and a hearing per general law. I would like to see MA get that on the books along with a POST.


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## Inspector71

pahapoika said:


> With the exception of K-9, apprehension, maybe transportation there's no real call for it. As one former member use to mention there are no unincorporated areas in Mass.
> but it looks like an uphill battle with most sheriffs not interested in providing the training.


There it is! Sheriffs are NOT set up with regard to infrastructure/training/policy/statutes for community police duties in this Commonwealth (911 response). yeah maybe somewhere in the distant future. But for now you're talking paradigm shift in Politics, legislation, and FUNDING. As it stands, NOT necessary at all. POST is an interesting concept, but not an urgent one as I see it.


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## FAPD

woodyd said:


> And a restriction that PT guys can't comprise more than a certain % of officers per dept, and can't work already alone on a shift without at least one FT guy also working.


Yeah that's gonna really work in alot of towns west of 495! NOT!!!!! YOU want that? YOU come up with the $$$ for those towns buddy!


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## Edmizer1

Who is going to make a determination that an officer engaged in sexual harassment and have their license taken? I know the MPTC wants to run the POST system. The full-time admin employees at the MPTC are only there because they did not have enough political pull to get a different job in state government. If they could have landed a better job at the RMV or Mass Highway that's where they would have been. Many of them don't even have the slightest experience in law enforcement but will potentially be deciding licensing issues.


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## felony

FAPD said:


> Yeah that's gonna really work in alot of towns west of 495! NOT!!!!! YOU want that? YOU come up with the $$$ for those towns buddy!


Then, they should do what other New England states do with small towns in rural areas, with limited number of officers. During the daytime, the town police will cover calls, after midnight they turn calls over to the state police (NH, VT,ME do this.) Everyone and their brother has the reserve academy, doesn't mean they are capable of working the road alone.

As far as POST is concerned and this bill, it seems like someone has an agenda or is trying to hook up a friend. Its seemed to work well for the last 200 years, so I don't see the need for a push right now. However, I am all in favor of standardizing traning and doing away with redundant academies and police powers. However, like is said with the POST, should come a LEOBOR, so the state can't nail you to the wall for minor infractions.


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## FAPD

felony said:


> During the daytime, the town police will cover calls, after midnight they turn calls over to the state police (NH, VT,ME do this.) Everyone and their brother has the reserve academy, doesn't mean they are capable of working the road alone.


Ok so you are demanding that towns hire, pay to train, schedule and pay FT officers for Part time coverage? Put the burden on the MSP for the rest of the clock? Not much for continuity. Most of those brothers and sisters that have the reserve academy HAVE BEEN working the road alone quite capably for years.


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## felony

FAPD said:


> Ok so you are demanding that towns hire, pay to train, schedule and pay FT officers for Part time coverage? Put the burden on the MSP for the rest of the clock? Not much for continuity. Most of those brothers and sisters that have the reserve academy HAVE BEEN working the road alone quite capably for years.


I am not demanding anything, just saying it could be done. Other states have done away with part timers (not saying I agree) or have made them have the same full time academy. This state has over 2500 troopers, that could be used to actually patrol. All in all, I am a firm believer in training and OTJ training/FTO. The reserve academy gets you the keys to the car, but you need to know how to drive the car.


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## BRION24

felony said:


> I am not demanding anything, just saying it could be done. Other states have done away with part timers (not saying I agree) or have made them have the same full time academy. This state has over *2500 troopers*, that could be used to actually patrol. All in all, I am a firm believer in training and OTJ training/FTO. The reserve academy gets you the keys to the car, but you need to know how to drive the car.


2500 Troopers? Where did you get that number from, we're not even close to that number. Please don't assume that we are tripping all over each other because there are so many of us. Most shifts are running at minimum every day. And yes the MSP already deals with towns out west when there is no local department or the department is only open certain hours.


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## Kilvinsky

I once spoke with a Trooper a bunch of years ago now, who said in all candor, that he actually felt, while on the 'small town patrol', he learned more from a P/T sgt. in one town then he learned in the academy. Now, granted this was only ONE Trooper who said this, and granted we ALL know that academies are wonderful and necessary but not always inline with the realities of the job, but that one statement from that one Trooper spoke volumes to me.

Part timers in many cases, BECAUSE they often have only themselves to rely on, learn everything and experience much. Never sell them short.

AND, don't forget, a guy working part time in one town is often working part time in another as well.


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## mpd61

*felony says;* _" The reserve academy gets you the keys to the car, but you need to know how to drive the car."_
Overly simplified, and perhaps mildly insulting! You could certainly say the same of post MPOC FT Noobs!



Kilvinsky said:


> I once spoke with a Trooper a bunch of years ago now, who said in all candor, that he actually felt, while on the 'small town patrol', he learned more from a P/T sgt. in one town then he learned in the academy. Now, granted this was only ONE Trooper who said this, and granted we ALL know that academies are wonderful and necessary *but not always inline with the realities of the job*, but that one statement from that one Trooper spoke volumes to me.
> 
> *Part timers in many cases, BECAUSE they often have only themselves to rely on, learn everything and experience much. Never sell them short.*
> 
> *AND, don't forget, a guy working part time in one town is often working part time in another as well*.


 The above statement is much more objective and factual regarding the PI/Reserve officer issue(s) in the Commonwealth.
Felony you sound a bit like an FT elitist. Drink some tea or you'll end up like Loyal.


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## felony

mpd61 said:


> *felony says;* _" The reserve academy gets you the keys to the car, but you need to know how to drive the car."_
> Overly simplified, and perhaps mildly insulting! You could certainly say the same of post MPOC FT Noobs!
> 
> The above statement is much more objective and factual regarding the PI/Reserve officer issue(s) in the Commonwealth.
> Felony you sound a bit like an FT elitist. Drink some tea or you'll end up like Loyal.


Well, since I worked as a reserve, a campus cop and now full time, I can speak from personal experience. The difference between a reserve who works a weekend shift once a month and a FT guy, who works the road 40+ hours a week, is experience. Sorry, if you don't know what you're doing on the street, then you shouldn't be out there. It was a very big learning curve for me when I started. If you read my previous post, before you blew a gasket calling me some type of elitist, you would see I was talking more about the need for a formalized FTO program that teaches reserves the proper way to handle calls etc. Like I said, the PT academy gets you the keys but if you don't know what you're doing, then you're going to be a danger to yourself and others. Yes you're also correct that a new recruit out of MPOC doesn't know what to do either. Now Calm down.

Also Brion24, I was incorrect on my statement, regarding the troop strength of the state police. They are authorized 2300 troopers that can patrol the western mass towns. The state police have always been key law enforcement players in western mass towns. Not saying you're all jumping to go handle calls out west but it could be done.


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## Pvt. Cowboy




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## HuskyH-2

felony said:


> Well, since I worked as a reserve, a campus cop and now full time, I can speak from personal experience. The difference between a reserve who works a weekend shift once a month and a FT guy, who works the road 40+ hours a week, is experience. Sorry, if you don't know what you're doing on the street, then you shouldn't be out there.


In my FT academy a lot of the guys and gals were reserves for their depts. They worked 40 plus hours a week. Many of them had set shifts. They went through the same FTO as full timers. Because of this a few didn't even have FTO after graduation, for them it was back to business as usual.


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## FAPD

felony said:


> The difference between a reserve who works a weekend shift once a month and a FT guy, who works the road 40+ hours a week, is experience.
> 
> They are authorized 2300 troopers that can patrol the western mass towns.


Your first statement shows both ends of the experience scale. Pretty sure most reserves west of 495 are working more than just eight hours a month. Your second statement assumes that the entire strength of the MSP is available to go take over "out west" for the towns. Come on now, you're entitled to your opinion, and have reserve/campus/FT time, but defend you position better than that.


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## Fuzzywuzzy




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## felony

FAPD said:


> Your first statement shows both ends of the experience scale. Pretty sure most reserves west of 495 are working more than just eight hours a month. Your second statement assumes that the entire strength of the MSP is available to go take over "out west" for the towns. Come on now, you're entitled to your opinion, and have reserve/campus/FT time, but defend you position better than that.


Apparently I touched a nerve. First of all, reserves are in violation, if they are used 40 hours a week. Secondly, I know the MSP isn't jumping to go out west, but it could be done. The NH/ME/CT SP all make it work, with far less staffing than the MSP.

Lastly, there are two types of reserves, those who want to go on full time and those that want to work details and stay at their other job. The reserves that don't want to better themselves other than the usual BS in-service are the ones, who don't work enough road time, to keep up with officer safety and patrol tactics. When you work with a fireman one week, a guy from Verizon the next and a clerk, who all wen through the R/I academy to play cop and get details, your attitude will change. The latter are what gives reserves a bad name and cause these debates. Obviously, the MPTC is picking up on it, if they are considering changing the whole state to a POST system and analyzing training for reserves.

I fully support any reserve who wants to do his job and actually works the road. Everyone has to start some where and I have no problem with them. Like I said, I am speaking from my personal experience. However, this debate is pointless you have your opinion and I have mine. Stay safe.


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## Inspector71

felony said:


> First of all, reserves are in violation, if they are used 40 hours a week. Secondly, I know the MSP isn't jumping to go out west, but it could be done. The NH/ME/CT SP all make it work, with far less staffing than the MSP.
> 
> Lastly, there are two types of reserves, those who want to go on full time and those that want to work details and stay at their other job.
> 
> I fully support any reserve who wants to do his job and actually works the road. Everyone has to start some where and I have no problem with them. Like I said, I am speaking from my personal experience. However, this debate is pointless you have your opinion and I have mine. Stay safe.


The debate might be pointless if you can't accept others opinions...First you jump right to the 40 hour mark regarding reserves. (totally ignoring 16 to 36 hour crowd). Then you piss on every one of the reserves who don't go on to full time by the implication they are lazy detail whores. I'm glad you got on full time and now look at a very large group of your brothers and sisters as lame-asses.


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## j809

All our reserves work only details, prisoner watch etc. Need a FT academy to work patrol shifts, however our reserves are making $65-90K a year working details, making them very happy.


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## Pvt. Cowboy

j809 said:


> All our reserves work only details, prisoner watch etc. Need a FT academy to work patrol shifts, however our reserves are making $65-90K a year working details, making them very happy.


Doesn't that just make them flag men in a uniform?


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## j809

Id rather have them then a
Flagman plus they have the 300+ hours plus academy ,for first responder and firearms.


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## mpd61

j809 said:


> Id rather have them then a
> Flagman plus they have the 300+ hours plus academy ,for first responder and firearms.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Sooooo.......they're good enough to carry weapons and go hands on medically per MPTC guidelines, but will never gain patrol experience w/o MPOC first? You should establish an FTO Program for them, then when and if they go MPOC, they're ahead of game when they come home.........


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## j809

They have option to go to a full time academy if they want it's their option. 


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## Pvt. Cowboy

j809 said:


> They have option to go to a full time academy if they want it's their option.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ok serious question though... Not busting balls.

They can stick around and work details and make bank, but can't do actual police work as a reserve.

As a reserve, they have the option to go through the FT academy, so that gives them the option of now working the road, and doing details.

Since they're still considered a reserve, what would preclude them from jumping ship after they're FT trained to find a FT gig? Just the details?


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## j809

We don't pay for their academy they pay their own way. We don't use reserves for patrol because we don't need them to.
It's a very nice gift to get the opportunity to make money and keep their certification, while giving them a chance to attend a full time academy. I wish I had that option many moons ago. 


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## samadam78

felony said:


> Apparently I touched a nerve. First of all, reserves are in violation, if they are used 40 hours a week. Secondly, I know the MSP isn't jumping to go out west, but it could be done. The NH/ME/CT SP all make it work, with far less staffing than the MSP.


Ok this post is going to set some peoples panties on fire but here goes...

If the entire state (including sheriffs) go to a POST system and everyone is made to obtain and maintain the same training standards then these towns west of 495 can contract their law enforcement to sheriffs departments like the rest of the country... With current training standards of the sheriffs departments in mass this is obviously not feasable but if they are trained to the same standards this becomes a possibility.... Now of course this is not necessary in the eastern part of the state but in the western and north western parts it may make sense and would free up some of MSP to more saturated areas....


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## Pvt. Cowboy

samadam78 said:


> Ok this post is going to set some peoples panties on fire but here goes...
> 
> If the entire state (including sheriffs) go to a POST system and everyone is made to obtain and maintain the same training standards then these towns west of 495 can contract their law enforcement to sheriffs departments like the rest of the country... With current training standards of the sheriffs departments in mass this is obviously not feasable but if they are trained to the same standards this becomes a possibility.... Now of course this is not necessary in the eastern part of the state but in the western and north western parts it may make sense and would free up some of MSP to more saturated areas....


I have a feeling that the sheriffs departments will be excluded from the post system. Their function being correctional, I think they would be excluded. Don't want too many fishes in the pond...

Again, only a thought.


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## Edmizer1

The sheriffs are state entities since about 15 years ago when county government was essentially eliminated. We should do what CT did. CT eliminated sheriffs and transferred all corrections to their DOC. Their version of court officers was then given the duties of civil process. Done


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## j809

There are laws on the books to make a regional police department and that makes a lot of sense, combining multiple small departments and therefore eliminate the need of reserves. This might be on the books in the new committee for mptc studying the use of reserves. 


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## samadam78

j809 said:


> There are laws on the books to make a regional police department and that makes a lot of sense, combining multiple small departments and therefore eliminate the need of reserves. This might be on the books in the new committee for mptc studying the use of reserves.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ive been saying this for YEARS.... 4 police chiefs making $100k a year with take home cars in a 20sq mile with 20-30k people total is ridiculous


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## pahapoika

Yay ! 
We haven't had a good sheriff bashing thread in awhile


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## mpd61

FUCK the sheriffs, FUCK SSPO's at state schools, and FUCK regional response rejects!!!!!!!!!!!


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## samadam78

What would a discussion be with out mpd's input


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## j809

Wow take it easy there Woody!! All those three things you hate will be here way after you die!


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## Crazy Otto

j809 said:


> There are laws on the books to make a regional police department and that makes a lot of sense, combining multiple small departments and therefore eliminate the need of reserves. This might be on the books in the new committee for mptc studying the use of reserves.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Never gonna happen. Board of selectmen in ANY town won't give up the power they have in their little fiefdom. Regional dispatch has been tried and it never got off the ground. Too much infighting. 
Don't even get me started on the LEC's....


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## j809

Our regional dispatch works great and regional school districts are in operation now in many communities. Police and fire Are next it's the future.


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## PBC FL Cop

Regionalization is a great concept and one that works very well when done correctly.


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## Crazy Otto

PBC FL Cop said:


> Regionalization is a great concept and one that works very well when done correctly.


It may be a great concept but remember, we are talking about Massachusetts. It would never be done correctly and would never work well.


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## PBC FL Cop

Crazy Otto said:


> It may be a great concept but remember, we are talking about Massachusetts. It would never be done correctly and would never work well.


LOL


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## j809

Funny thing is that the law exempts civil service departments from joining a regional police department.


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## mpd61

j809 said:


> Funny thing is that the law exempts civil service departments from joining a regional police department.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


It's a conspiracy!!!!


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## samadam78

As more depts leave CS I predict before most of us retire (unless your old,msp, or large city) will work for some form of regional or consolidated PD


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## pahapoika

But the sheriff's department already is a regional agency


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## Kilvinsky

mpd61 said:


> It's a conspiracy!!!!


A vast RIGHT WING conspiracy. Ask Hilliary about that stuff, she's the expert.


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## tallwill88

A POST system in Massachusetts would never work. The first is that there are too many law enforcement officers in this state. In Connecticut, where I used to work, there were 3.6 million citizens but about 6,000 sworn police officers. In Massachusetts, there are 6.6 million residents but more 19,000 sworn law enforcement officers. In Massachusetts, there are Sheriffs, Reserve Officers, Full-time Officers, SSPO's, etc. There are simply too many fish in the pond here for a POST system to ever be effective.

Police Departments in Connecticut must also qualify for POST certification. This means that POST must approve their need for a police department. For example, there are only two private colleges who have police departments in Connecticut. Others have applied and have been turned down, because based upon the current function of their Department of Public Safety or security department, POST has believed that upgrading their status would be unnecessary since they don't do police work. (Yale PD has been grandfathered since its 125 years old) All police officers in Connecticut (campus, hospital, municipal, environmental) are "POST-certified", which allows them to move freely to departments throughout the state without having to go to other academies.

POST also approves critical changes to police and updates to policy. For example, in the past, Windsor Locks has attempted to take jurisdiction from CSP and input town officers at Bradley. In order to do this, they would need approval from POST, who in turn, shot them down. Another example is the recent attempt of UCONN PD to take over law enforcement duties from the Town of Mansfield. (The Town of Mansfield is a constabulary, meaning they hire POST-certified "constables" to work under the Resident State Trooper, who is the chief law enforcement officer within the town.) I do not know the status of this
but UCONN hasn't taken over jurisdiction of the town yet. POST has yet to allow it to happen.

I write all of this to show you how powerful this agency is. I don't even think the MPTC has even close to that amount of power in Massachusetts. There is too much politics in Mass to give any agency that much power.


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## USM C-2

It doesn't have to be that way. 

After 25 years of policing in Massachusetts I retired and moved to Mississippi. Where I un-retired to play at coppery at a state university. My application went to the Board on Law Enforcement Officer Standards and Training (BLEOST) along with a copy of my MCJTC (then, now it's MPTC) recruit academy diploma. If you are newly-hired, BLEOST will categorize you as either Certified, or Refresher-eligible, or a Trainee. 

BLEOST called MCJTC and got a copy of my academy syllabus and confirmed I graduated, then advised my department I needed to attend a "refresher" academy to update my hard skills (defensive tactics, officer survival, firearms, driving, etc.) and Mississippi criminal and traffic law. When I finished they awarded me a certificate... well, actually they sent it to my department.

If I leave, my department has to send my certificate back to BLEOST, along with a certification as to my departure status. Was I leaving in good standing, was I under investigation, etc. As long as I am leaving in good standing, I can go to work anywhere else (municipal, county, state) except Highway Patrol. Some larger cities might require a "lateral academy" that covers their particular procedures, but most will not.

Questions of jurisdiction, authority, etc. are not within the purview of the Board. They are established by state law or other regulation. For example, our authority comes from a state law authorizing state universities to hire a police force. The board acts like a clearinghouse, to give departments a place to check that an applicant is trained and certified, ready to hire. That makes the officer more employable. It also provides a way to eliminate the bad apples. 

Is it perfect? Not at all. But, it does allow for officers to work pretty much anywhere in the state once certified.


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## j809

tallwill88 said:


> A POST system in Massachusetts would never work. The first is that there are too many law enforcement officers in this state. In Connecticut, where I used to work, there were 3.6 million citizens but about 6,000 sworn police officers. In Massachusetts, there are 6.6 million residents but more 19,000 sworn law enforcement officers. In Massachusetts, there are Sheriffs, Reserve Officers, Full-time Officers, SSPO's, etc. There are simply too many fish in the pond here for a POST system to ever be effective.
> 
> Police Departments in Connecticut must also qualify for POST certification. This means that POST must approve their need for a police department. For example, there are only two private colleges who have police departments in Connecticut. Others have applied and have been turned down, because based upon the current function of their Department of Public Safety or security department, POST has believed that upgrading their status would be unnecessary since they don't do police work. (Yale PD has been grandfathered since its 125 years old) All police officers in Connecticut (campus, hospital, municipal, environmental) are "POST-certified", which allows them to move freely to departments throughout the state without having to go to other academies.
> 
> POST also approves critical changes to police and updates to policy. For example, in the past, Windsor Locks has attempted to take jurisdiction from CSP and input town officers at Bradley. In order to do this, they would need approval from POST, who in turn, shot them down. Another example is the recent attempt of UCONN PD to take over law enforcement duties from the Town of Mansfield. (The Town of Mansfield is a constabulary, meaning they hire POST-certified "constables" to work under the Resident State Trooper, who is the chief law enforcement officer within the town.) I do not know the status of this
> but UCONN hasn't taken over jurisdiction of the town yet. POST has yet to allow it to happen.
> 
> I write all of this to show you how powerful this agency is. I don't even think the MPTC has even close to that amount of power in Massachusetts. There is too much politics in Mass to give any agency that much power.


It can work look at California


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## mpd61

j809 said:


> It can work look at California


I did and almost became permanently blind!!!! WTF!?!?


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## 9X19

It's only a matter of time until POST comes. Everything seems to sweep east from west for some reason. Its that way for a lot of things and I don't know why seeing as we have some of the finest colleges in the world. Look at para-medicine for example. Finally Massachusetts has become a Nationally registered EMS state, it took years but it came.


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## Kilvinsky

The Thread that WOULDN'T DIE!


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## Goose

Kilvinsky said:


> The Thread that WOULDN'T DIE!


Be quiet. I'm trying to sleep!!!


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## Joel98

I have trouble seeing this happen here in MA, and here's why; even though this state is only 10,000 square miles and barely a speck on a map of the US, it has more little fiefdoms/kingdoms/areas of control/jurisdictions under the control of various Chiefs, sheriffs, local officials, state officials and private colleges, than exist in all of the US put together. And NONE of these are willing to cede or give up an inch of what they control.........A POST system would obliterate all of this....that's why I can see many, many people fighting tooth and nail against a POST system.


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## Joel98

Inspector71 said:


> There it is! Sheriffs are NOT set up with regard to infrastructure/training/policy/statutes for community police duties in this Commonwealth (911 response). yeah maybe somewhere in the distant future. But for now you're talking paradigm shift in Politics, legislation, and FUNDING. As it stands, NOT necessary at all. POST is an interesting concept, but not an urgent one as I see it.


But if a POST system were created in MA, it would have to include sheriffs. POST stands for Peace Officers Standards and Training, by definition it includes ALL law enforcement agencies in the state, sheriffs dept's are by definition a law enforcement agency.


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## Goose

Joel98 said:


> But if a POST system were created in MA, it would have to include sheriffs. POST stands for Peace Officers Standards and Training, by definition it includes ALL law enforcement agencies in the state, sheriffs dept's are by definition a law enforcement agency.


Other states with POST systems do not require their jail deputies to go through a POST academy as they are not law enforcement/patrol deputies.


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## Joel98

Goose said:


> Other states with POST systems do not require their jail deputies to go through a POST academy as they are not law enforcement/patrol deputies.


That is correct, however all academies are managed under POST. In other words, everything law enforcement related is managed and administered under POST, to include jail deputy/correctional officer academies.


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