# Senate’s sweeping police reform bill would end qualified immunity



## USAF3424

Massachusetts senators vow to pass sweeping police reform bill this week


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## 02136colonel

Maybe they can pass SB2602 while they’re in session this week. It’s only been in committee since March
But if qualified immunity is eliminated, it’s something that the unions need to address during contract negotiations (either for the city to indemnify officers or for the city to pay for insurance policies for individual officers), so the as bad as the bill is, the timing works out with the contract up for negotiation


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## IamTheDude

I hate the way these bills read, even the new coverage is vague.... can anyone break this thing down Barney style?

Should I consider putting together a f'ing resume or not?


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## Roy Fehler

That bill will be the end of policing in Massachusetts, they might as well actually start sending social workers to every call.


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## FAPD

Karen Spilka and Deleo...........
Maybe they should just make all police like the State House Rangers, No Weapons. Ridiculous BS
Chang-Diaz can go piss up a rope too.


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## msw

Without qualified immunity, very few smart, dedicated people will become cops. Those that do, will become report takers, not pro-active crime fighters. The Leftist politicians pushing to eliminate qualified immunity know this, so the question is........ what is their “end goal” that they are trying to achieve? What do some of you think the answer to this question is?


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## CCCSD

Roy Fehler said:


> That bill will be the end of policing in Massachusetts, they might as well actually start sending social workers to every call.


Coming soon to Cali and disarming us I bet...


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## mpd61

Garbage, unjustified, knee-jerk, bowing to the raving minority GARBAGE


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## JD02124

Open up for the shit sandwich....


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## j809

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## RodneyFarva

*Fattman stalls Massachusetts policing bill Friday, says will do same on Saturday*

Efforts to pass a policing reform bill continue to move only in fits and starts as debate was again delayed on Friday - and the senator who's caused the delays says he has no plans to change his approach during this weekend's rare Saturday session.

State Sen. Ryan Fattman, a Sutton Republican, used a procedural move on Friday for the second day in a row to table debate on a police reform bill, bringing a halt to planned consideration of nearly 130 amendments. He told the Herald later in the day that he "100% plans to do the same during the Senate's coming hearing on Saturday.

"The Senate is jeopardizing reform in favor of an ideological wish list that will not pass the House," Fattman said Friday night. "By slowing things down, we've already started to see greater dialogue, like the phenomenal speech by my colleague John Keenan."Keenan, a Quincy Democrat whose brother is that city's police chief, backed Fattman in the debate over the bill, which Beacon Hill leaders say they want to hammer out before the formal session ends later this month. Keenan, citing his great-grandfather, a Boston Police officer who was shot in the line of duty, and said more needs to be done to understand cops' perspective.
"In a society where people are going further and further apart, we find ourselves right in the middle," Keenan said. "Not in the middle trying to draw people together, but with a bill that is well-intentioned, has good things, but for whatever reason is driving people apart."

But Sen. Sonia Chang-Diaz, a Boston Democrat and the branch's lone member of the Black and Latino Legislative Caucus, said the Senate's working group "had people at the table who were bringing explicitly the perspective of law enforcement."

"The president's office, Ways and Means, myself, we met with stakeholder groups from law enforcement and wove their input into the bill," said Chang-Diaz, a lead proponent of the existing bill. "Does it have everything they want? Of course not. Does it have everything that people from Roxbury want? Of course not, and I have to live with that discomfort. But to suggest that this process did not attempt to bring people together, I'm calling B.S. on that."

This comes as protests continue following high-profile police killings of minorities, leading to calls for cuts to police funding and changes in police oversight and use of force.

The current bill would create an independent oversight and an investigatory body to hold police accountable and create a system to certify law enforcement officers. Police officers would also be required to intervene if they witness police misconduct and would have to undergo racism training. Language in the legislation bans chokeholds, places restrictions on the use of tear gas, and limits qualified immunity, which protects officers from being personally liable for what they do in their jobs.
Opponents say the bill is is moving too quickly, is too expansive, and has not benefited from a public hearing.

_- Herald wire services contributed to this report._


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## USAF3424

My brain keeps reading this is as “Fat man stalls Massachusetts policing bill” haha


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## visible25

Passed. Multiple amendments voted out/withdrawal. But it passed.


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## RodneyFarva

visible25 said:


> Passed. Multiple amendments voted out/withdrawal. But it passed.


And on to the house it goes. People are already starting to organize a rally at the state house.


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## visible25

Unknown amendment verbiage, no public hearing, rejections of amendments that would HELP police... Bravo Massachusetts


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## Joel98

msw said:


> Without qualified immunity, very few smart, dedicated people will become cops. Those that do, will become report takers, not pro-active crime fighters. The Leftist politicians pushing to eliminate qualified immunity know this, so the question is........ what is their "end goal" that they are trying to achieve? What do some of you think the answer to this question is?


The radical leftists goal is to eliminate the policing system in America. And if they can't do that through defunding the police, then they will do it by getting rid of qualified immunity, thus destroying policing from within. Many officers will leave and recruiting new officers will be impossible.


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## USAF3424

Already working on my exit plan. This is not worth it anymore.


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## 02136colonel

USAF3424 said:


> Already working on my exit plan. This is not worth it anymore.


Next BFD test is gonna have a line of Cops waiting to take it lol. Though AKAIK it does reset your ten years if you make the jump


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## questionguy27

msw said:


> Without qualified immunity, very few smart, dedicated people will become cops. Those that do, will become report takers, not pro-active crime fighters. The Leftist politicians pushing to eliminate qualified immunity know this, so the question is........ what is their "end goal" that they are trying to achieve? What do some of you think the answer to this question is?


Behind the curtain, it has been clearly documented among far leftist (communist, anarchist) academics such as Angela Davis or Assata Shakur that the purpose of defunding or inhibiting police operations is to set conditions for the abolishment of police, which leads to abolishment of capitalism (revolution). These people are smart. If you get rid of cops, crime will go up, but then there will be a power vacuum. Radicals are always looking for the next opportunity or movement to exploit. The scary part to this is that the far right (eg. 3% militias/Bundyites/legitimate terrorist Neo Nazis) are waiting for this day, too, because they build legitimacy through launching a counter-revolution in "defense" of democratic ideals, but in reality just want power.


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## Joel98

questionguy27 said:


> Behind the curtain, it has been clearly documented among far leftist (communist, anarchist) academics such as Angela Davis or Assata Shakur that the purpose of defunding or inhibiting police operations is to set conditions for the abolishment of police, which leads to abolishment of capitalism (revolution). These people are smart. If you get rid of cops, crime will go up, but then there will be a power vacuum. Radicals are always looking for the next opportunity or movement to exploit. The scary part to this is that the far right (eg. 3% militias/Bundyites/legitimate terrorist Neo Nazis) are waiting for this day, too, because they build legitimacy through launching a counter-revolution in "defense" of democratic ideals, but in reality just want power.


The far right has nothing to do with this. Eliminating the police is straight out of the leftists playbook.


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## questionguy27

Joel98 said:


> The far right has nothing to do with this. Eliminating the police is straight out of the leftists playbook.


Oh yeah, I agree with you. There's only really one side calling for the total elimination of cops here. I'm just saying it's not going to go over how they expect it will. Berkeley in 2016 is a great example.


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## LGriffin

msw said:


> Without qualified immunity, very few smart, dedicated people will become cops. Those that do, will become report takers, not pro-active crime fighters. The Leftist politicians pushing to eliminate qualified immunity know this, so the question is........ what is their "end goal" that they are trying to achieve? What do some of you think the answer to this question is?


I hope candidates understand that it is in their best interest to do an about face. I can't believe they kept showing up after Ferguson.
Democrats just want America to burn under the Trump Admin. They know LEO's overwhelmingly supported him after Odrama waged war on us in 2008, so this is our punishment. Easy to see it coming since they aligned with the same mob that glorified Speed Bump after he murdered Sean and Martin and injured patriots. 
We can't even rely on Republican Senators (Tarr and OConnor didn't even have the balls to vote).
Ultimately, anyone who can retire has already filed the paperwork. Any young men and women sharp enough to become Cops are sharp enough to do anything else. The writing was on that wall after Darren Wilson was forced into hiding for DOING EVERYTHING RIGHT - and people tolerated it! No one stood up for him.
The best thing you can do now is stock up and prepare. They want it.


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## USAF286

Any truth to the NYPD putting a cap on how many cops can retire per month?


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## HistoryHound

USAF286 said:


> Any truth to the NYPD putting a cap on how many cops can retire per month?
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Is that even something that they can do? I would think if you have your time in there wouldn't be much the city could do to stop you.


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## PG1911

Joel98 said:


> The far right has nothing to do with this. Eliminating the police is straight out of the leftists playbook.


Yep, it's step 1, but the goal is not to eliminate law enforcement. It's to eliminate law enforcement that serves the public and swears an oath to defend the Constitution. They want to replace the current law enforcement system with a paramilitary police that answers to "The Party" rather than the people, like the Red Guards, Stasi, KGB, SS, etc.


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## 02136colonel

HistoryHound said:


> Is that even something that they can do? I would think if you have your time in there wouldn't be much the city could do to stop you.


My understanding is that they reduced the staff in the retirement office. They can't directly stop Cops from retiring, but if there's no one to turn in your retirement papers to, how can you retire?


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## USAF286

02136colonel said:


> My understanding is that they reduced the staff in the retirement office. They can't directly stop Cops from retiring, but if there's no one to turn in your retirement papers to, how can you retire?


Yeah sounds like they're just making the process more difficult to try and deter people on the fence from going through with it. Just my guess

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## Bloodhound

Welp, Senate bill passed. now it goes to the House. Man the lifeboats.


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## HistoryHound

02136colonel said:


> My understanding is that they reduced the staff in the retirement office. They can't directly stop Cops from retiring, but if there's no one to turn in your retirement papers to, how can you retire?


That makes sense. Make the inefficient even more inefficient.


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## CCCSD

They had to put more bodies on the street. All house mouse positions are affected.


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## bosto911

USAF3424 said:


> Massachusetts senators vow to pass sweeping police reform bill this week





USAF3424 said:


> Massachusetts senators vow to pass sweeping police reform bill this week


I-


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## bosto911

USAF3424 said:


> Massachusetts senators vow to pass sweeping police reform bill this week


Is anyone here considering leaving? I am seriously considering retiring after 12 years. I've spoke to family members and they here me complain about the job and they say to me "just quit then." It sounds so simple when they say it like that, but for some reason, as much as I'm getting sick of the job and have lost the love of it, I won't make the move. I had another career before getting on the job and I potentially have a job lined up that makes the same amount of money if not more. I know other people who have little skill that make more money than I do in manufacturing jobs or even UPS workers make more in some cases, but I still feel stuck. I think I may overvalue the security the job provides. I mean most of the world has regular jobs and they do it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if I'm just burnt out and will get over it or The job is really getting that bad that people are really considering leaving.


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## IamTheDude

bosto911 said:


> Is anyone here considering leaving? I am seriously considering retiring after 12 years. I've spoke to family members and they here me complain about the job and they say to me "just quit then." It sounds so simple when they say it like that, but for some reason, as much as I'm getting sick of the job and have lost the love of it, I won't make the move. I had another career before getting on the job and I potentially have a job lined up that makes the same amount of money if not more. I know other people who have little skill that make more money than I do in manufacturing jobs or even UPS workers make more in some cases, but I still feel stuck. I think I may overvalue the security the job provides. I mean most of the world has regular jobs and they do it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if I'm just burnt out and will get over it or The job is really getting that bad that people are really considering leaving.


You've hit the point of no return. Where you aren't fresh on the job, but not yet at the point where you can see the light... I'm there too BTW. Before you say "f' this BS", figure out your retirement system. Even if a few more years means you can get something which is better than nothing. Then just hide and only respond when called, bid nights, learn a new skill, etc... we may not like doing that but its the lesser of evils.

Keep in mind this still has to pass through the house and govenor, leaving a tiny bit of hope.


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## AB7

bosto911 said:


> Is anyone here considering leaving? I am seriously considering retiring after 12 years. I've spoke to family members and they here me complain about the job and they say to me "just quit then." It sounds so simple when they say it like that, but for some reason, as much as I'm getting sick of the job and have lost the love of it, I won't make the move. I had another career before getting on the job and I potentially have a job lined up that makes the same amount of money if not more. I know other people who have little skill that make more money than I do in manufacturing jobs or even UPS workers make more in some cases, but I still feel stuck. I think I may overvalue the security the job provides. I mean most of the world has regular jobs and they do it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if I'm just burnt out and will get over it or The job is really getting that bad that people are really considering leaving.


The biggest struggle for most people seems to be that they are unable to make similar money doing another job. From what I'm reading (correct me if I'm wrong) you don't have that issue, which is a small blessing in and of itself.

You received some solid advice from IAmTheDude about retirement. As much as you can, try not to let your time go to waste.

The only person who knows the answer to your question is you. Inevitably you know how staying on the job effects you, your mental health, your family life, and the overall well-being of the things that matter to you. Being a police officer has always been a calling for most people. That doesn't mean you need to damn yourself and only ever be a police officer until you die at the ripe old age of 55 from heart problems, well before you cash in on that meager pension.


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## visible25

TL;DR - As with other's I've spoken to, deciding to leave the profession is a real hard call.

Coming from the situation where I am still early on in my career, it's a little bit different for me (and I imagine for some others in my shoes). End of the day, anyone who's been on the job after 2013-ish I'd argue doesn't quite know what "the good ol' days" truly are. 
The newer generation of cops have come into the profession as the tide changed slightly and have been faced with the adversity/tension that's been mounting up. While this current climate is certainly the worst as far as how cops are viewed/treated in recent years, it's not a MASSIVE hot/cold different (if that makes sense?)

The academies have all changed their approach to instruction as the laws, politicians, and other factors have changed as well- all while still preparing cops to be prepared to face whatever threat (or non-threat) comes at them. 

Perhaps my analysis is completely off, so I'll chalk it off to just my opinion. This isn't meant to be a slight and claim the younger cops are more apt to handling the true hatred that's going on right now, because we aren't! But the legal restrictions that have come down, have not affected us as much (yet) as they have those who were on the job for 10-15+ years who suddenly had to stop policing the way they had been for so many years! (Ex: Odor of Marijuana is not automatic exit orders for vehicle stops etc)

While I am displeased and disappointed in the process this Bill has taken shape (No public hearing, no true input from LEOs, midnight votes, highly restrictive). I do also see there is a relatively long road ahead for it, with a lot of verbiage that has yet to be worked out or even fully released. Hell you go to one of the MA LEO Facebook groups and can't get a straight answer. 

I fully get the anger some are feeling, especially those 10+ years on, because year after year it seems we're being restricted more and more. End of the day, I'll wait to see what the final form looks like, and if it's voted in, based on that we'll see what happens. 

Still so early in my career I can't imagine doing anything else... so perhaps if push came to shove I'd look to go to another state before leaving LE


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## Hush

Good. Give this state the policing it deserves. Hang out at the station like firefighters. Park in a parking lot and read a book. STOP writing money cites, STOP writing tickets. Be officer friendly to the good citizens. Shrug when they complain about crime and refer them to their local politicians office. You're getting handed a free pass to do nothing. Enjoy it.


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## 02136colonel

I’m also fairly new to the field, and not even on THE job I really want yet. I too am disheartened by the way we’re being treated lately, but I think we need to look at it in a historical view.
In the 1960s and 1970s, Cops were viewed an as enemy, and treated even worse in some ways than now. The guys on the job then are mostly all since retired, but the legacy behind Schroeder Plaza should be a reminder to all of us of how dangerous the 1970s were for policing. The Weather Underground was the ANTIFA of the day, and rioting like what we saw in late May was not unheard of. 
And then the city turned into a war zone. Neighborhoods were decimated by crime, homicides surged, and the 1980s to early 1990s were arguably some of BPDs busiest years. Respect for the police increased, funding increased, and we reached a point where 10,000-15,000 residents would show up to take a police exam, competing for maybe 150 spots.
Contracts were good during those years, and continuing up even to recent years. As hard as the job is today, the money is much better than what the guys who did the job 40+ years ago were making.
I think the question to ask before leaving is, will things just continue to get worse? Or are we looking at the among the worst of times right now, and we can have hope that things will get better? Will those of us starting out today, one day pin our children’s badges, and tell them stories about how bad things were in the early 2020s, before we finally regained the respect we deserve?


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## j809

Hush said:


> Good. Give this state the policing it deserves. Hang out at the station like firefighters. Park in a parking lot and read a book. STOP writing money cites, STOP writing tickets. Be officer friendly to the good citizens. Shrug when they complain about crime and refer them to their local politicians office. You're getting handed a free pass to do nothing. Enjoy it.


Exactly but there are those heroes that still feel they need to write tickets.

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## Hush

j809 said:


> Exactly but there are those heroes that still feel they need to write tickets.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


This is MY highway 

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## Treehouse413

Hush said:


> Good. Give this state the policing it deserves. Hang out at the station like firefighters. Park in a parking lot and read a book. STOP writing money cites, STOP writing tickets. Be officer friendly to the good citizens. Shrug when they complain about crime and refer them to their local politicians office. You're getting handed a free pass to do nothing. Enjoy it.


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## Treehouse413

Hush said:


> Good. Give this state the policing it deserves. Hang out at the station like firefighters. Park in a parking lot and read a book. STOP writing money cites, STOP writing tickets. Be officer friendly to the good citizens. Shrug when they complain about crime and refer them to their local politicians office. You're getting handed a free pass to do nothing. Enjoy it.


Why would you ever write on money cite and fill the states pocket . The same state that took the Quinn bill from you 2009 and up officers . Not to mention raising insurance rates so the companies can profit . Never believed in that . Just my 2.


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## Hush

Treehouse413 said:


> Why would you ever write on money cite and fill the states pocket . The same state that took the Quinn bill from you 2009 and up officers . Not to mention raising insurance rates so the companies can profit . Never believed in that . Just my 2.


iTs FoR sAfEtY. For most average people, the ONLY encounters they have with police is during a traffic stop. It's an unpleasant experience, and often ends with an expensive ticket and insurance surcharge. Forget Coffee With A Cop...if you REALLY want to win the public back, quit reaching into their pockets. Leave tickets for the truly deserving, everyone else gets a "please slow it down, you have a nice day now".


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## mpd61

I was always officer friendly. Hell it took me five years of daily CH.90 stops in Brockton, and I only filled 4.5 ticket books, probably 50% of which were written warnings. I sent many people away smiling and thankful. Guess what?
It's way too late for that. We have turned a 120 degree turn. There are just not enough people in the legislature or the public who are behind us now.


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## Hush

Covid was a good test run for limiting police interactions. Citizens should no longer see police unless its life or death, and they specifically requested armed law enforcement. Your son is having a temper tantrum? Here's a link to some de-escalation tactics. Neighbor took a shit on your lawn? Ask him not to. Will good people suffer a bit? Yup. Do many of those good people also vote for and support the demorats behind all this? Also yup. Let them feel the effects of their worldview on their doorstep.


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## PG1911

Hush said:


> Covid was a good test run for limiting police interactions. Citizens should no longer see police unless its life or death, and they specifically requested armed law enforcement. Your son is having a temper tantrum? Here's a link to some de-escalation tactics. Neighbor took a shit on your lawn? Ask him not to. Will good people suffer a bit? Yup. Do many of those good people also vote for and support the demorats behind all this? Also yup. Let them feel the effects of their worldview on their doorstep.


I think that's where the whole thing "social worker" response thing comes in. I know people dismiss it by saying things like "What's an unarmed social worker gonna do against some guy built like a linebacker all hopped up on PCP?" And of course the answer is that you still send the cops to calls like that. But the calls with the parents having it up to here with their bratty kids, or needing to settle a neighbor dispute that hasn't gone violent? Yeah, social workers _are_ trained to handle stuff like that. I say let them do so, and if they think that the situation could escalate to the point of needing police, they can request police presence. I mean, if that's what the people want, we can see how it works.


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## PG1911

bosto911 said:


> Is anyone here considering leaving? I am seriously considering retiring after 12 years. I've spoke to family members and they here me complain about the job and they say to me "just quit then." It sounds so simple when they say it like that, but for some reason, as much as I'm getting sick of the job and have lost the love of it, I won't make the move. I had another career before getting on the job and I potentially have a job lined up that makes the same amount of money if not more. I know other people who have little skill that make more money than I do in manufacturing jobs or even UPS workers make more in some cases, but I still feel stuck. I think I may overvalue the security the job provides. I mean most of the world has regular jobs and they do it. I guess I'm just trying to figure out if I'm just burnt out and will get over it or The job is really getting that bad that people are really considering leaving.


I'd say start formulating a plan of what else you want to do with your professional life and start making the moves ASAP. It's bad enough having to go to any job that you hate. But having to go to a job that you not only hate, but could mean death or prison if you make the wrong step? Not worth it at all. I got out of law enforcement and corrections two years ago; I spent way less time in it than you did, but that was enough to nearly ruin me; both departments where I worked were hellholes of misery. I can't even imagine what 12 years at either place would have done to me.


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## Tailon630

Just throwing it out there. I emailed both my senator and state rep when this bill came out. Senator never responded (of course) but my rep did and he followed up with an email about the upcoming bill

"To {Me} - I'm writing to make you aware that the House is soliciting testimony regarding S2820, the policing reform bill passed by the Senate. If you wish to submit testimony, you may send it to [email protected] by email or attachment. The deadline to do so is tomorrow, July 17 at 11:00AM. You can direct your comments to House Ways and Means Chair, Aaron Michlewitz and House Judiciary Committee Chair, Claire Cronin."

so write to your state rep and write to these testimonies to support us and get this bill thrown out. I sent it to my union and hopefully it can spread for more people to talk about all of this.


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## 02136colonel

Tailon630 said:


> Just throwing it out there. I emailed both my senator and state rep when this bill came out. Senator never responded (of course) but my rep did and he followed up with an email about the upcoming bill
> 
> "To {Me} - I'm writing to make you aware that the House is soliciting testimony regarding S2820, the policing reform bill passed by the Senate. If you wish to submit testimony, you may send it to [email protected] by email or attachment. The deadline to do so is tomorrow, July 17 at 11:00AM. You can direct your comments to House Ways and Means Chair, Aaron Michlewitz and House Judiciary Committee Chair, Claire Cronin."
> 
> so write to your state rep and write to these testimonies to support us and get this bill thrown out. I sent it to my union and hopefully it can spread for more people to talk about all of this.


One of point of note regarding the legislature:
Senate bill 2602, establishing a COVID presumption for public safety personnel, has been reported favorably by the Joint Committee, a piece of good news this week. If you email your legislators, please consider also asking them to support SB 2602 (for Senators) and HB 4611 (for Representatives)


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## msw

My advice for those in the mid range of their career now (12-15 years on) would be to get off the street and get an admin, training or detective spot...... much safer place to finish out a career than patrol. For new guys, get out of police work ...... or move..... Go get a job as a cop in a small to medium sized community in a red state where the community, your bosses and the politicians support and appreciate you. Maybe even go to a plainclothes Fed agency. Cops working uniform patrol in big cities run by Democrats are going to have a really hard time successfully finishing their careers without being sued, fired or prosecuted to satisfy the Leftist Mob.


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## Quo Vadis

msw said:


> My advice for those in the mid range of their career now (12-15 years on) would be to get off the street and get an admin, training or detective spot...... much safer place to finish out a career than patrol. For new guys, get out of police work ...... or move..... Go get a job as a cop in a small to medium sized community in a red state where the community, your bosses and the politicians support and appreciate you. Maybe even go to a plainclothes Fed agency. Cops working uniform patrol in big cities run by Democrats are going to have a really hard time successfully finishing their careers without being sued, fired or prosecuted to satisfy the Leftist Mob.


Plainclothes fed is a good path to take if you can. There's an age limit for most (must be under 37 yoa at time of hire), but a lot of agencies are hiring, and the pay is good. It's a very different type of policing from uniformed patrol, and the differences are beneficial in this anti-police climate.


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## j809

With all the anticop rhetoric, like I said before , campus cops should worry more if this bill passes. If the colleges make the officers security or public safety they won’t be liable anymore for any police action. 


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## 02136colonel

j809 said:


> With all the anticop rhetoric, like I said before , campus cops should worry more if this bill passes. If the colleges make the officers security or public safety they won't be liable anymore for any police action.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I agree that it's a risk, but private campuses never had qualified immunity anyway, so this legislation won't change liability in that area. If anything, I think poorly trained security guards are more likely to get their employer sued than professional police officers.
But there's definitely a risk that students/faculty will demand that scary Police be removed from campus, or at a minimum disarmed, and those demands could be met by administration


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## Kilvinsky

02136colonel said:


> I agree that it's a risk, but private campuses never had qualified immunity anyway, so this legislation won't change liability in that area. If anything, I think poorly trained security guards are more likely to get their employer sued than professional police officers.
> But there's definitely a risk that students/faculty will demand that scary Police be removed from campus, or at a minimum disarmed, and those demands could be met by administration


"Control, I'll respond to that armed suspect call in College Hall, AFTER the city cops get there and find the right building, but I'm only going to see if they want coffee. Received?"


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## CCCSD

Out here in CA, they are already trying to disarm UC campus cops. 

My campus has started a discussion because the anti LE Asian president hates cops. Because...we have the safest colleges in the US, high arrests, good relationships with everyone. So obviously we are racists.

She’s such a fucking cunt! I finally blocked her and her ilk from my official email. I don’t fucking care that I’m supposed to receive her emails by Regs.


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## j809

Clark University is an armed police department. They're hiring a new chief and this was sent out today.

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## USAF286

j809 said:


> Clark University is an armed police department. They're hiring a new chief and this was sent out today.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Innovative ideas and progressive thinking are all well and good when it comes to community policing and specific units...but when the bell rings and someone was just violently assaulted calls 911...you know who everyone will be looking for...


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## 02136colonel

j809 said:


> Clark University is an armed police department. They're hiring a new chief and this was sent out today.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well that's a bad sign. So they'll probably bring in Securitas, and call WPD for anything real. Save $ and get rid of the scary Police...
And Chief of Police is supposed to be capitalized, unlike in their job description


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## mpd61

j809 said:


> Clark University is an armed police department. They're hiring a new chief and this was sent out today.
> 
> 
> 
> Thats a friggin shame!!!
Click to expand...


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## Kilvinsky

well, with Clark University being located in one of the safest areas and it's police being well known trigger happy racists, I can fully understand.
God Help Us All!


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## 02136colonel

Kilvinsky said:


> well, with Clark University being located in one of the safest areas and it's police being well known trigger happy racists, I can fully understand.
> God Help Us All!


A certain student newspaper at a large, prominent university in the Cambridge area published an editorial last month calling for that Police Department to be disbanded. And the Globe is now citing that editorial in their own hit piece on campus law enforcement.
Of course, a couple of years ago when a Police Officer for the other department just up the street was murdered by terrorists, everyone was pointing to that incident as proof of how we do the same job, and take the same risks, as any other Cops. But I guess now being like "any other Cops", makes us just as bad as they are.


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## CCCSD

Not going to stop until innocent bodies stack up.


And you know...I’m good with that now. Clorox the pool. This is what THEY want.


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## res2244

The deaths of both Ofc. Collier and Sgt. Simmons popped my bubble of safety and gave me the balls to switch my goal from cybersecurity to public safety. I won't ever forget their lives being taken away ever as that was the Commonwealth's darkest of days, even writing this makes my heart and stomach drop. It also makes me angry anytime people consider campus guys any lesser then other LEOs. 

RIP Ofc. Collier and Sgt. Simmons.


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## RodneyFarva

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=630501277878111


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## visible25

RodneyFarva said:


> __ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=630501277878111


Ah, look- Chiefs!! Phew, glad they're on the case

Edit: I joke, cause it took awhile but I am extremely pleased with the message of that statement


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## RodneyFarva

visible25 said:


> Ah, look- Chiefs!! Phew, glad they're on the case
> 
> Edit: I joke, cause it took awhile but I am extremely pleased with the message of that statement


I'm picking up what you're putting down.


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## RodneyFarva

visible25 said:


> Ah, look- Chiefs!! Phew, glad they're on the case
> 
> Edit: I joke, cause it took awhile but I am extremely pleased with the message of that statement


I'm picking up what you're putting down.


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## LA Copper

visible25 said:


> Ah, look- Chiefs!! Phew, glad they're on the case
> 
> Edit: I joke, cause it took awhile but I am extremely pleased with the message of that statement


I don't know what these chiefs are like individually but I liked their collective message. It's refreshing to see them banding together and saying positive things about their officers and their departments. Let's hope the right people hear them.


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## Hush

I wish the chiefs up here had the stones that the sheriff's down south do. Stop being a politician and call it like it is. If one of your officers dumps a shitbag, and the media trots out the loving father story, hold a press conference and note of every arrest for child abuse, etc. Instead, leadership often stands silent while the media owns the narrative and the officer becomes a punching bag. Revise shooting investigate polices relating to release of bodycam footage etc. If large agencies like LAPD or Metro can release statements and videos ahead of the news cycle, Podunk PD isn't going to jeopardize any prosecutions or investigations either. 

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## Hush

And I'll believe chiefs in MA are on the right track, when they finally give up the LTC cartel.

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## USAF286

I wonder if this will pass...


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## Treehouse413




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## NEPS

Read through LED’s update. Pages and pages of proposed laws is how the legislature hides things. The minor qualified immunity change is NOTHING compared with the huge changes in use of force law. And I have never used all-caps for anything on this site.


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## j809

F the job 


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## IamTheDude

USAF286 said:


> I wonder if this will pass...


So when the state neuters us with this bill, and everyone that can retire/leave does, shift will go unmanned due to cops making too much.... pretty much sums up the total lack of foresight on this whole thing and how out of touch with reality some of these hacks are.


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## RodneyFarva

PDF


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## NEPS

j809 said:


> F the job
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Hey, the job may already be f'd, but we don't have to give up. This bill is in the state;s house of representatives for a vote tomorrow. Send your representative in the house an email tonight saying that you are concerned about your ability to do your job of protecting the public and staying safe while doing so. Send LED's update along if you want. Let your state rep know you are paying attention to this issue.
Send the same thing to the governor.
I honestly do not believe legislators have any idea of the many situations in which cops may and must use reasonable force to do their job, so to them it may seem that "arrest" is enough.


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## j809

NEPS said:


> Hey, the job may already be f'd, but we don't have to give up. This bill is in the state;s house of representatives for a vote tomorrow. Send your representative in the house an email tonight saying that you are concerned about your ability to do your job of protecting the public and staying safe while doing so. Send LED's update along if you want. Let your state rep know you are paying attention to this issue.
> Send the same thing to the governor.
> I honestly do not believe legislators have any idea of the many situations in which cops may and must use reasonable force to do their job, so to them it may seem that "arrest" is enough.



















Look at this crap too

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## j809

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## NEPS

j809,
I agree. The MMA does not understand the true issues. But, if I understand correctly, the insurance agency that most municipalities turn to for municipal insurance has been notified about the UoF changes in this proposed bill. I would be surprised if that insurance agency will have such a positive view of the dramatically increased circumstances under which the insurance agency will have to pay out.
It may be fourth and long, but the game is not over yet.


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## Hush

Looking forward to when the politicians who neuter the cops realize that there is nobody to protect them. 
My greatest fear is that people will start hanging politicians from lightposts. 
My second greatest fear is that we will run out of lightposts.

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## IamTheDude

Never been a big fan of the Mass. Munipal Ass. (I refuse to refer to them as "MMA"... that is associated with someone who has balls beyond brains, which is not the case)
They shit on unions and CBAs (for the most part).
They used veterans as a scapegoat to try to eliminate civil service (multiple times). 
I could rant about the MassMAss, but I have better things to do, I have a detail in the AM


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## CCCSD

It’s like FOP. A complete waste of time and money.


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## HistoryHound

Hush said:


> Looking forward to when the politicians who neuter the cops realize that there is nobody to protect them.
> My greatest fear is that people will start hanging politicians from lightposts.
> My second greatest fear is that we will run out of lightposts.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


Don't be silly. They'll still have their protection. They're important you know.


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## visible25

As I've said before, I'll wait for final verbiage to digest this all. That being said, LEDs breakdown is fucking frightening. 

Perhaps it's time to consider the ol' MC advice "Go South or West"


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## res2244

visible25 said:


> As I've said before, I'll wait for final verbiage to digest this all. That being said, LEDs breakdown is fucking frightening.
> 
> Perhaps it's time to consider the ol' MC advice "Go South or West"


or what aboot going North to maple syrup land eh?


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## visible25

res2244 said:


> or what aboot going North to maple syrup land eh?


Could be swayed... better off-roading there I think? My Jeep needs some freedom


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## PBC FL Cop

Vermont is always looking for good cops!!


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## USAF286

I always told myself 1 basic training and 1 police academy is good enough for me...hopefully I can stick to that and not have to move out of state!


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## visible25

PBC FL Cop said:


> Vermont is always looking for good cops!!


Know anyone?


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## Quo Vadis

I was working in Texas for a while, and some of the state and local agencies there pay very well, with good retirements too. Not so for a lot of southern and western states. I’ve heard that some PDs in Texas will waive most of their academies for lateral transfers from out of state. Then again, if you’re from New England, it is really far from home. 

Off the top of my head, TX DPS, San Antonio PD, Garland PD, and Mesquite PD (the last two in the Dallas area) seem like good places to work. Dallas is a big air traffic hub for those who want/need to fly home regularly.


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## mpd61

j809 said:


> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yimmy!
You never told me about these clowns. Talk about a collective group of whiners trying to take advantage of the need for "racial equity" Somebody explain how Civil Service Reform, Collective Bargaining Reform, and Labor Management issues are at the forefront of "racial injustice" and "training" issues relative to police methodology and practice?
Oh, no it's more about power and money with these folks. You can clearly see how their concern for "racial equity" is the primary concern......


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## Hush

The politicians HATE you. They consider you below them, you do their bidding, and you are disposable. Stop letting your unions support them. 

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## CCCSD

Hush said:


> The politicians HATE you. They consider you below them, you do their bidding, and you are disposable. Stop letting your unions support them.
> 
> Sent from my moto g(7) power using Tapatalk


Can't like this enough!


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## WMA7787

PBC FL Cop said:


> Vermont is always looking for good cops!!


I'm sure VT ins't far behind MA.


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## mpd61

Looks like Reserve/Intermittent folks are grandfathered, with their certification to expire within 1-3 years depending on your last name...................Seems logical. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No mention of reserve academy anywhere. Probably going to standardize with Full time academy for everybody.(see section 81 of h.4860) 
This might signal the end of many campus and auxiliary programs?


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## RodneyFarva

mpd61 said:


> Looks like Reserve/Intermittent folks are grandfathered, with their certification to expire within 1-3 years depending on your last name...................Seems logical. NOT!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> No mention of reserve academy anywhere. Probably going to standardize with Full time academy for everybody.(see section 81 of h.4860)
> This might signal the end of many campus and auxiliary programs?


Can you imagine doing a reserve academy many moons ago now you become fully certified as a FT Mass officer, you are now grandfathered in and you can lateral to the state police without a RTT. They thought the 94 merger was bad.


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## FAPD

RodneyFarva said:


> Can you imagine doing a reserve academy many moons ago now you become fully certified as a FT Mass officer, you are now grandfathered in and you can lateral to the state police without a RTT. They thought the 94 merger was bad.


Not really, it looks like to keep your certification, you would have to attend full academy, cuz reserve academy won't exist, nor would prior reserve cert count anymore.


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## NEPS

Regarding reserve academy certification:
(1) I believe the part-time standard of recruit training will end. Depending on the bill, I think there were be one standard or, possibly, two -- state police and everyone else.
(2) The bills I have seen only give a temporary certification to current reserve-academy certificates. It seems the MPTC will be required to figure out what extra training reserve-academy officers need to be "fully" certified. This will be a new duty for MPTC which has mostly ignored part-time officers and left the privately run satellite academies to figure out much of part-timer training.
Bonus Info! Those of you with MPTC or (you old bastards!) CJTC waivers will have 6 months to pursue new waivers from what ever the certification authority turns out to be (Police Officer Standards and Accreditation Committee in one bill, the Division of Standards in another bill). Have fun gathering old records.


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## Bloodhound

*Massachusetts House passes a police reform bill, but lawmakers still face opposition on qualified immunity*
A massive police reform bill that would create a police certification process with civilian oversight, ban choke holds and restrict "no-knock" warrants is a step closer to becoming law in Massachusetts.

After three days of debate over use of force standards, qualified immunity and supervisory powers, the Massachusetts House passed the police reform bill, 93 to 66 - a smaller margin than votes on previous landmark bills, legislators say.
Lawmakers wrangled over who gets a seat at the oversight commission, which the House initially proposed would have at least two police officials and five civilians. They argued over what level of force is excessive and, on the third and final day of debates, when officers accused of misconduct should be protected by qualified immunity.
Massachusetts House narrowly passes a police reform bill, but debate shows rifts


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## EUPD377

USAF286 said:


> I always told myself 1 basic training and 1 police academy is good enough for me...hopefully I can stick to that and not have to move out of state!


North Carolina will take you! 

You only have to do 92 hours of state law specific training.

Might be a little bit of a move though.


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## JD02124

I had always assumed choke holds were A no-go unless it was a life or death situation.... now with this bill even if you're gunna die and a choke hold is you're only option your better of dying....


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## msw

JD02124 said:


> I had always assumed choke holds were A no-go unless it was a life or death situation.... now with this bill even if you're gunna die and a choke hold is you're only option your better of dying....


I think the term "choke hold" is thrown about with a lot of imprecision. An arm bar on the throat? What about a carotid restraint?


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## j809

You’re better off poking their eyes out with a knife in a deadly situation then grabbing them by the throat. 


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## j809

One of our sergeants, a few years ago was fighting with a guy in the middle of the road. Guy was trying to reach for his gun, they were on the ground and held him by the neck and vice versus until an EPO drive by and assisted him. Things could have gone very bad quickly. So under the new rule he would have been charged and decertified. Unreal 


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## 02136colonel

A couple thoughts...
The house vote was less than a 2/3 majority. We should all be contacting Gov. Baker’s office and asking that he veto any bill that eliminates qualified immunity, or imposes the kind of impossible UOF standards that Atty Scheft describes in his recent memo.
When you sit down to write a letter/email to Governor Baker, also consider emailing your State Rep and asking for their support for HB 4611 (COVID presumption for public safety), and asking that the provisions be made retroactive. It’s been reported favorably by the Public Safety Committee, but is currently under review by Ways and Means.
I think the argument for transitioning to two-man cars is stronger than ever now. Two police officers can restrain a person with less force than it would take for one person, 99.9% of the time. Suspects are often less likely to fight when there’s two of us there. And let’s face it- we’re human. There are times when situations become heated/emotional. Having a partner there, allows for the partner to step in when the situation starts to heat up.


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## LA Copper

My Department has had two officer patrol cars for the last 60 years. I agree, two officers are "wicked" better than one. It's not perfect but it's definitely better. Fights still happen but I'd rather do it with two of us than one.


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## RodneyFarva

JD02124 said:


> I had always assumed choke holds were A no-go unless it was a life or death situation.... now with this bill even if you're gunna die and a choke hold is you're only option your better of dying....


Negative, go right to lethal force.


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## 02136colonel

LA Copper said:


> My Department has had two officer patrol cars for the last 60 years. I agree, two officers are "wicked" better than one. It's not perfect but it's definitely better. Fights still happen but I'd rather do it with two of us than one.


I totally agree, much safer, and probably less likely to end up in front of a grand jury/on CNN etc. Having two officers there, one can provide lethal cover if necessary while the other attempts to resolve the incident without lethal force. Safer for the officers, and the members of the public we encounter


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## NEPS

02136colonel said:


> A couple thoughts...
> The house vote was less than a 2/3 majority. We should all be contacting Gov. Baker's office and asking that he veto any bill that eliminates qualified immunity, or imposes the kind of impossible UOF standards that Atty Scheft describes in his recent memo.


Yes, definitely write to the Governor. Even send attach LED's memo. But don't forget to write your senator and representative as well and send it to them. The differences between these two bills will need to be settled in a conference and that is where the final bill will come from before going back to the Senate and the House to be passed and sent to the governor. The Senate did not have the benefit of Atty. Scheft's memo before senators voted. (For some reason the Mass. Chief's letter https://www.masschiefs.org/assets/Letter to Senate Ways and Means 07062020.pdf did not even mention a concern about the use of force standards.) If the bill is passed again by both houses and vetoed in whole or part by the Governor it comes back to the Senate and or the House again. The Senate and House must both override the veto by a 2/3 majority or the Governor's veto stands.
Make no mistake, the UoF standard is the bigger deal than qualified immunity. Qualified immunity is the process by which you are judged -- and this proposed state statute will apply only in suits under _state_ law, not federal civil rights lawsuits. The new and very restrictive UoF will provide the standard by which you will be judged.


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## CCCSD

Or...the other officer will stand there and video you struggling, all the while they tell you to stop using illegal force.

Fucking millennials on up...


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## JD02124

RodneyFarva said:


> Negative, go right to lethal force.


No shit....


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## j809

How many people will pull the plug earlier ? I wanna do 5 more to. 70 percent. I’d need 9 more for 80.


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## mpd61

j809 said:


> How many people will pull the plug earlier ? I wanna do 5 more to. 70 percent. I'd need 9 more for 80.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Yimmy,
Hopefully you're still in the drivers seat. See how the BS Bill shakes out, If the Campus jobs survive, go early with 70% and do what Al did. You could be top dog and still be mid 50's. Or quit whining and grind it out till you're old and cranky and take your 80 and hope the Daughter will let you live in her basement.


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## j809

I’d never do campus again. Hate to deal with other assholes kids anymore. I’ll do details but that’s it. 


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## PPD54

After 11 years, I have four shifts left and am headed to a FL sheriffs department. At least it's a red state for now that has a little respect for the job. Maybe I'll end up in recruiting and take all of your applications. Stay safe up here, but I wouldn't blame anyone for walking away....I am.


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## Joel98

PPD54 said:


> After 11 years, I have four shifts left and am headed to a FL sheriffs department. At least it's a red state for now that has a little respect for the job. Maybe I'll end up in recruiting and take all of your applications. Stay safe up here, but I wouldn't blame anyone for walking away....I am.


Good for you, congratulations.


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## Sgt Jack

PPD54 said:


> After 11 years, I have four shifts left and am headed to a FL sheriffs department. At least it's a red state for now that has a little respect for the job. Maybe I'll end up in recruiting and take all of your applications. Stay safe up here, but I wouldn't blame anyone for walking away....I am.


Congratulations and Good luck. I got to do the Florida Sheriff's thing for a quick stint on the Gulf Coast. Some days I wish I was back there. Just a quick couple of things. Even though you have 11 years here you will have to unlearn and re learn some things so expect to be out of your comfort zone for a bit starting out. It's a bit humbling actually. They love Signals and Ten Codes on the radio so get ready to talk in arithmetic. You will meet the craziest of the crazy. Yes we have them here but a few months of them here is a week in Florida. Don't expect a hugh Detail or OT culture like Mass, yes there's details and ot but it's not like here. YMMV depending on the agency. They will give you legal cheat sheets but I never saw anything like what LE dimensions puts out. You will be able to do more as a deputy as far as stopping people/arrests/searching etc. Guns, lots of guns, guns are no big thing. Get ready to go to Walmart ALOT for retail theft calls. Good luck and you can PM with what agency your going to if you want. I was in Sarasota County.


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## Drebbin

PPD54 said:


> After 11 years, I have four shifts left and am headed to a FL sheriffs department. At least it's a red state for now that has a little respect for the job. Maybe I'll end up in recruiting and take all of your applications. Stay safe up here, but I wouldn't blame anyone for walking away....I am.


Good luck and welcome to crazytown. I went from Mass to an out of state agency. Sgt Jack is right on about re learning cop stuff. It's pretty humbling. You will want to say "back in Mass we did it this way". Don't. They won't want to hear it during training. Just be a sponge and take it all in. Congratulations.


----------



## Drebbin

Black activist robbed; gains new appreciation for police. 
Wow......


----------



## USM C-2

PPD54 said:


> After 11 years, I have four shifts left and am headed to a FL sheriffs department. At least it's a red state for now that has a little respect for the job. Maybe I'll end up in recruiting and take all of your applications. Stay safe up here, but I wouldn't blame anyone for walking away....I am.


Fifteen years in Mississippi here. I only made it back home last month.

Ten codes! The first time I turned on my radio I heard something like "L-14, 10-17 Johnson Science Tower, Room 403 on the 4th, 10-49 Professor Higgins for a 10-86 10-98."

Wait, what?

A few years ago I was back here visiting friends and was listening to my old Mass. department radio. Everything I heard I mentally translated into ten codes. Nothing to worry about, it's like learning a new language by being dumped into a foreign country. Eventually you just absorb it.

Gangs and drugs - lots more of both, unless maybe you're leaving a big-city gang unit. Gangster Disciples, East Coast Crips, Simon City Royals were our big 3 but YMMV.

Guns. Everywhere. I took more guns off of people as a campus cop (in a city) than I ever did working in Mass.

Culture - Where we were, everyone played nice, more or less. If something big happens, every Jack and Jill with a badge rolls on it. With their hard armor plate carriers and AR-15s. Even if they're in shorts and flip-flops. Little to no territoriality.

The pay and budget are generally poor, since local tax receipts rule. If business is bad, you'll get laid off. Your patrol car will likely be a few years old, maybe with 100K or more miles on it. On the good side, it might still be a Crown Vic!

Our radio systems were the best part of the job. Post-Katrina the state and feds poured a shit-ton of $$$$ into the MS-WIN system. I'm pretty sure there's a LWIN in Louisiana and a similar one in Alabama, all integrated at least on the coast. Some agencies don't even install a vehicle radio, your portable will work fine even clipped to your belt inside the car. Inter-agency channels, state-wide coverage, etc.

Criminal procedure - as a patrol cop, you're expected to cuff them and toss them into a detective's lap. Unless it's a DUI or a warrant, you aren't expected to know jack about criminal procedure. Good thing, since it gets all of 8 hours in the academy... maybe a little more but nothing like you got here. But, the state courts don't issue many decisions on procedure. Federal courts generally set your limits. Google the FLETC Informer for a monthly legal update.

Lack of job security, low pay. But, public support in general is better. And no snow.

But, fair warning. Body armor (level III generally) is always worn and it is in the mid-90's with high humidity from early June through nearly October. If you aren't prepared for that, you'll suffer.

If you are prepared for that, you'll still suffer, you just won't be mad at yourself.

I'm glad I made the move. I got to meet great cops, the food and music are fantastic, I had experiences that I could never have had here. But it isn't home. Good luck what ever you decide!


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## NEPS

For those interested, the House Bill passed Friday evening. It was amended a lot, but kept the same UoF language as the Senate Bill. The amended House Bill may be found here for anyone who wants to strangle a day reading through it: https://malegislature.gov/Bills/191/H4886

I understand that the game is not over on the UoF language, though. The concerns in LED's memo have moved through the legislature and made some waves. What happens now is the Senate and House appoint members to a conference committee to come up with one compromise bill based on both. This bill then must pass both Senate and House before going to the Governor. Pressure may still be applied to all three of those entities.


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## RodneyFarva

*From Rep Tim Whelan: *
Friends, I am proud to announce that House Minority Leader Brad Jones has selected me to serve as his appointee to the Conference Committee that will work to resolve differences between the House and Senate versions of H.4886 / S.2820- the policing reform bills both recently engrossed in the House and Senate. I look forward to the work ahead with my legislative colleagues and while I cannot make any promises of what the end result will be, I can promise you that I will bring every one of my 26 years of first-hand law enforcement experience to the table for our discussions and will give this important assignment everything I have. It is important to everyone that we do this right. Thank you for your support and friendship. A link to both engrossed versions of the bills is below:

H.4886: https://malegislature.gov/Bills/191/H4886
S.2820: https://malegislature.gov/Bills/191/S2820


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## mpd61

So currently in house version;
*MPTC* is out, replaced by *C*ommission on *P*olice *T*raining and *C*ertification (*CPTC*)
Under the *CPTC*, they outline a _Commission on Police Standards and Training_. (sounds like a POST)
Down another level, they create the ten (10) member _Committee on Police Standards and Training. _This committee would consist of five Governor-appointed Chiefs, one from each geographic region, the MBTA Chief, one member from Mass Chiefs, a police officer agreed upon by MPA/MPTOA/BPD Commish/Derr Colonel MSP, and finally two (2) Sheriffs.

The mandatory training delineated covers such before unheard of topics as domestic violence, sexual assault, bicycle safety, and SRO. How innovative and progressive. Technology such as bio-metrics are to be restricted. The "Imminent Harm" definition is both ludicrous and impractical. The UoF is all over the map. Actually pretty darn disconcerting.

The only decent thing I can see is there are multiple references to training for special, reserve & intermittent officers.
the topic of auxiliary seems to be missing?


----------



## res2244

mpd61 said:


> So currently in house version;
> *MPTC* is out, replaced by *C*ommission on *P*olice *T*raining and *C*ertification (*CPTC*)
> Under the *CPTC*, they outline a _Commission on Police Standards and Training_. (sounds like a POST)
> Down another level, they create the ten (10) member _Committee on Police Standards and Training. _This committee would consist of five Governor-appointed Chiefs, one from each geographic region, the MBTA Chief, one member from Mass Chiefs, a police officer agreed upon by MPA/MPTOA/BPD Commish/Derr Colonel MSP, and finally two (2) Sheriffs.
> 
> The mandatory training delineated covers such before unheard of topics as domestic violence, sexual assault, bicycle safety, and SRO. How innovative and progressive. Technology such as bio-metrics are to be restricted. The "Imminent Harm" definition is both ludicrous and impractical. The UoF is all over the map. Actually pretty darn disconcerting.
> 
> The only decent thing I can see is there are multiple references to training for special, reserve & intermittent officers.
> the topic of auxiliary seems to be missing?


Whats the 411 for the R/I academies specifically?? Im still unclear on the status of their validity under this new oversight agency


----------



## RodneyFarva

24 State Reps Who Voted For the "Police Reform" Bill And Should Be Voted Out In November - TB Daily News


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## mpd61




----------



## NEPS

Regarding reserve-intermittent: In one place the amended House Bill seems to ordain up to five distinct training standards (state police, municipal officers, etc.) that the new training organization would have to design, including reserve-intermittent. In another place the bill states that current reserve-intermittent level trained officers will be initially certified, but during that initial period "shall complete additional training as required" by the new training organization. The extent and purpose of this additional training is not explained further.

The Senate Bill did not carefully distinguish different levels of training. It said the same thing about initial certification being issued for reserve-intermittent with follow up training required.

The hours of reserve-intermittent recruit training already is closing in on the full-time academy training hours. There is a possibility that a lower training standard for part-timers will not survive. This may be proper, as reserve-intermittent officers don't get any Mulligans in criminal or civil courts because of there lower training status. Requiring full-time training for regular deputy sheriffs who want to work details would really be a bear, of course, since they already have some training relevant to police tasks outside of the walls, but these bills are not about careful fine-tuning.

Continue to write your reps and senators regarding things you would like to see addressed, and Rep. Whelan, mentioned above, who is on the conference committee.


----------



## RodneyFarva

It was a split-second of hesitation that Det. Mario Oliveira and Officer Bob DeNapoli said cost them both of them their careers and nearly their lives - a kind of hesitation they say is bound to become more common should the Legislature's police reform bills turn into law.

"I didn't see a gun and I hesitated. Looked away for a split second and I got shot six times," Oliveira says of a Nov. 2, 2010, encounter in Somerville with a 21-year-old man suspected of selling untraceable firearms to Boston gangs. One of the bullets missed.

DeNapoli was responding to a robbery on Sept. 6, 2011, in Woburn when two men - who didn't fit the description of the suspects - loitering near a car suddenly surrounded him as he exited his cruiser and one opened fire.

"We have to make split-second decisions," DeNapoli said, noting he barely got his gun out his holster by the time before a gunfight ensued. "My backup was only 13 seconds behind me. I was shot six times and I shot him twice in 10 seconds."
Oliveira died twice on the operating table and years later suffered a massive heart attack and later a stroke - both, doctors said, were directly related to the shooting. DeNapoli suffers from PTSD and is permanently blind in his left eye. Shrapnel and bits of bullets remain buried in his arms and legs.

Now the two men head the Violently Injured Police Officers Organization, which provides peer support to injured officers. They said they worry injuries will increase as officers are forced to "second guess" themselves or refrain from using forceful tactics like chokeholds when confronted with an assailant who aims to kill them.

But the Rev. Darryl Malden, an attorney and pastor at Bethel African Methodist Episcopal Church in Fall River, said the bill is about police "being accountable to the community."

Dueling police reform bills passed in the state House and Senate are being reconciled in conference committee by lawmakers. Both bills seek to create the state's first-ever licensing system for police and increase training around racial issues. The bills would also ban chokeholds and place limits on lethal force tactics. The Senate's would cut qualified immunity, which can protect officers from liability for misconduct.

"Without a doubt this bill and with these changes to qualified immunity, cops will be hesitant to go about their jobs," Oliveira said.
Last year, 89 officers were killed in the line of duty across the United States, according to FBI statistics. Roughly 18,000 officers were injured in assaults in 2018 - the most recent year for which data is available.

But many more people die at the hands of police. In 2019 the Washington Post reported 999 people were shot and killed in 2019 alone - 25% of those were black, a fraction that far outstrips the U.S. population. No centralized government database of police killings exists.


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## res2244

NEPS said:


> Regarding reserve-intermittent: In one place the amended House Bill seems to ordain up to five distinct training standards (state police, municipal officers, etc.) that the new training organization would have to design, including reserve-intermittent. In another place the bill states that current reserve-intermittent level trained officers will be initially certified, but during that initial period "shall complete additional training as required" by the new training organization. The extent and purpose of this additional training is not explained further.
> 
> The Senate Bill did not carefully distinguish different levels of training. It said the same thing about initial certification being issued for reserve-intermittent with follow up training required.
> 
> The hours of reserve-intermittent recruit training already is closing in on the full-time academy training hours. There is a possibility that a lower training standard for part-timers will not survive. This may be proper, as reserve-intermittent officers don't get any Mulligans in criminal or civil courts because of there lower training status. Requiring full-time training for regular deputy sheriffs who want to work details would really be a bear, of course, since they already have some training relevant to police tasks outside of the walls, but these bills are not about careful fine-tuning.
> 
> Continue to write your reps and senators regarding things you would like to see addressed, and Rep. Whelan, mentioned above, who is on the conference committee.


I appreciate the response. I was under the impression that my upcoming R/I course (clocked at 550 hours) that I paid 3 grand for would be axed entirely.


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## j809

You could have gone to full time academy for that price 


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## PG1911

j809 said:


> You could have gone to full time academy for that price


As I've said before, they should just do what they do in PA: Give the option to complete the academy on a full time basis in 6 months or a part time basis in a year, either way getting the same number of hours.


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## j809

I think the problem on part time basis is the no physical fitness part which is huge 


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## res2244

I’m mostly doing it to put my foot in the door to prove to a chief to sponsor me to a FT one or to get hired as a candidate (for a non-lateral transfer opening) and being sent to a FT one. I kind of signed up for it to get my foot in the door so to say beyond just having a degree. I don’t plan on taking the CS exam as I don’t have any CS municipalities under my radar to apply for. I’m also like 90% sure there are DI’s from the Worcester Police Academy involved, and I’ve kept myself in shape and following through with the Coopers test percentiles so it’s not like I’m only preparing myself for book smarts.


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## j809

Did you get a job yet. Academy only good for 2 years 


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## res2244

j809 said:


> Did you get a job yet. Academy only good for 2 years
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


All of the non-CS places I've looked at either are lateral transfer openings, or part time gigs that require FT or R/I from the getgo and then full time patrolman openings with FT only (regardless of lateral transfer or not). I also just turned 21 this year so idk if its young and dumb to go with the self sponsor path


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## j809

Like I said if you have the part time academy it’s only good for 2 years 


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## FAPD

Anybody hear what the hell is going on?!?!


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## USAF286

Massachusetts Betrays the Police | WRKO-AM 680

Accurate IMO


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## CCCSD

I hope EVERY politician across the land that votes for these bills, and their families, become victims of crime. I hope the thugs take over and rob and rape them with impunity. I hope that Americans arm themselves and protect their own.

Time to invoke the Rooftop Korean model.


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## Tailon630

Not sure if everyone saw this but go to the link and fill out your info and write something informative or positive to defend us against the masses. MASScops made it real easy to fill out and send to the committee

https://www.masscopaction.com/committee


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## mpd61

Maybe, just maybe, If the "Nutty Ninth" Circuit Court in Commufornia gets it.........................
Ninth Circuit approves use of deadly force upon extremely reckless driver

Our own legislature will understand what SCOTUS determined long ago.


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## NEPS

mpd61 said:


> Maybe, just maybe, If the "Nutty Ninth" Circuit Court in Commufornia gets it.........................
> Ninth Circuit approves use of deadly force upon extremely reckless driver
> 
> Our own legislature will understand what SCOTUS determined long ago.


Thanks for posting that article.


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## mpd61

*Well it's a done deal! What a great day for the Commonwealth!!!!!!
*


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## CCCSD

So....black lives take precedence..?


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## USM C-2

Just a quick read and my first takeaways, without editorial comment (which I am fairly sure will not be in short supply) - 

Well, certification is here. Along with decertification. Lots of things you can be de-certified for. 

One certification for all, though the commission MAY have separate training tracks for MSP, local, reserve, etc. but is not required to.

Takes a LOT of power away from Chiefs. They no longer have final authority on IA and discipline, since all complaints have to be forwarded to the commission, which can do its own investigation and has its own law enforcement authority.

Commission can also order retraining for lots of violations.

There appears to be some restrictions on how the commissions decisions can be appealed. Looks like they may be hard to overturn.

MSP Colonel can be an outsider, there are MSP Cadets, and there is a new MSP disciplinary process. And a promotional process. Set in statute, not regulations.

Lots of stuff on SRO's.

No-knock warrants require PC that lives will be in danger AND no persons over 65 or minor children will be present.

LOTS of other stuff - several other commissions and studies, including one on closing all regional academies and opening one large-state-wide academy with full-time staff.

And I'm sure there's much in there I've missed, as I said just a quick skim.


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## visible25

Very interesting... Looking around at most states nearby who have a POST, same statewide academy, and licensing it works for them.

They'd have to run the academy in 2-3 classes per year just to barely fit candidates in. Will be interesting to see what happens

Look guys/gals, so long as you're operating within your parameters of the job and not doing anything wrong, this shouldn't be a major concern. End of the day, someone gets injured during an altercation with us they are evaluated and at the end of the day it's documented somewhere (report mostly) that someone with bars reads or reviews.

I don't think it's completely fair to see this and wave the flag to give up. As we all know, this state when compared to others, has handcuffed us in more ways than not- Especially when it comes to enforcement of the laws and operative measures. End of the day, although it's another step back for some (loss of power by Chiefs, possibly no special academies for the smokies, and the licensing board w/civilians) on the whole, it might be beneficial and continue the high level/tier training our State already expects from us. Let's keep in mind, we are some of the best trained & educated in the nation. Very seldom do we see nationwide brutality cases from NE let alone this state.

*Keep up with your training, keep up with your fitness, keep up with your laws and you will be absolutely fine.*

Just my $0.02


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## CCCSD

When you give untrained civilians the power and authority to investigate cops...well...what did you THINK would happen?


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## EUPD377

I also think it’s funny that from my brief skim, you’re banned from being on the commission for police certification if you’ve ever been a cop, but if you’re a convicted criminal, that’s a-okay. So if you have two people apply, one who has 15 convictions for assaulting cops, and one who has been a cop, only one is getting disqualified, and it’s not the one that it should be.


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## felony

How long until we can Petition for a Law Enforcement Officers Bill Of Rights ?


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## Roy Fehler

visible25 said:


> *Keep up with your training, keep up with your fitness, keep up with your laws and you will be absolutely fine.*


I couldn't disagree more.

Even before this goes into effect, you can do everything right, and still end up in the jackpot. It will be worse X100 now.


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## 9319

F em all. Hello midnights, LONG naps, netflix and details. The job wasn’t worth it in this state to begin with.


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## Mr Scribbles

Board of Oversight is a joke. It will be made up of folks with no institutional knowledge, just a rabid hatred of cops. Oh yeah, it'll be fair. Some sort of warped payback for any slight real or imagined.


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## Treehouse413

Too late for me to switch , but if I could would’ve gone into the trades .


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## USAF3424

This job absolutely sucks. Now its alot worse.


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## IamTheDude

Normally I think we would all get a good laugh at these guys, but they may be on to something (instead of just on something).....


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## EUPD377

Oh I foresee the private security industry completely exploding with growth as more and more states go down moronic paths with their police forces. If I owned a business in one of the “defund” cities I’d seriously be looking at hiring some sort of security instead of waiting a day for a police response (or in some cases being flat-out told that their will be no response). 

My state (NC) has a statute for company/special police officers that allows private entities (such as security companies) to hire sworn law enforcement with full powers on their property. Think of it sort of like Boston specials, although they don’t have the same limitations and are considered to be the same as municipal cops under law, just with limited jurisdiction. They must go through a full academy and the attorney general’s office conducts a full background and polygraph before they grant sworn status. I’ve seen these guys everywhere from malls to HOA communities, to business parks. If our state ever fucks with LE to the point that others have and goes full reactive, I’d consider leaving my agency and starting my own private PD to take in that sweet, sweet money from businesses and wealthy communities that suddenly need additional protection.


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## CCCSD

Constables! Yeah! Their Day is coming.


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## USAF3424

Mr Scribbles said:


> Board of Oversight is a joke. It will be made up of folks with no institutional knowledge, just a rabid hatred of cops. Oh yeah, it'll be fair. Some sort of warped payback for any slight real or imagined.


There he is!!


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## LGriffin

Two-thirds are shitbags looking to ruin Cops.


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## mpd61

IamTheDude said:


> Normally I think we would all get a good laugh at these guys, but they may be on to something (instead of just on something).....


1. Trendy "threat management" and "violence Intervention" in titles.
2. Tangible visible deterrent
3. $2M revenue with 60 employees means about $30k a year tops for each VIPER "officer"
This will probably be a successful enterprise for 2-5 years. Then high turn-over, lawsuits, and eventual public realization that this is just another "rent-a-cop" operation with little or no government oversight will knock it back to nothing.


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## CCCSD

LGriffin said:


> Two-thirds are shitbags looking to ruin Cops.


The owner is a Clownshoes. They are a fucking lawsuit waiting to happen...


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## jjm98

What is going to happen to recruits in the middle of a R/I academy? I see no mention in the bill that those will be given the chance to complete the class.


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## PG1911

IamTheDude said:


> Normally I think we would all get a good laugh at these guys, but they may be on to something (instead of just on something).....


About 8 years ago, I used to work in a gun store. My co-worker/"manager" was one of the biggest dumbasses I've ever met; talked out his ass constantly about law enforcement and military related things he didn't have a damn clue about and was wrong about 90% of the time. BUT, one thing he said, and I dismissed it at the time, was that law enforcement was too understaffed and that municipalities and communities would start turning to private security forces very soon. Son of a bitch, that dumb motherfucker may have been right on this...


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## PG1911

jjm98 said:


> What is going to happen to recruits in the middle of a R/I academy? I see no mention in the bill that those will be given the chance to complete the class.


Knowing how the state works, it'll be "Nobody held a gun and made you shell out the money for this class. You can't fight city hall, so thanks for the $2,500. You'll get nothing and like it."


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## felony

Well, looks like now when I go on calls, I will just have the parties involved sign a waiver, saying I cannot be held personally liable for police services rendered. I will have to bring the local bank manager with me of course, to be notary public on the waiver. Along with a audio and video recording, clearly releasing me from all liability. Only then, will I act.


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## mpd61

jjm98 said:


> What is going to happen to recruits in the middle of a R/I academy? I see no mention in the bill that those will be given the chance to complete the class.


I think they'll be good to go...............
Until 0ne to three years later when their certification will run out, at which time they'll have to meet WHATEVER new standards the CPTC comes up with relative to FT or Bridge academy. Then again, it's all phukkin speculation cuz this was rushed and seems impractical in many aspects.


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## Foxy85

mpd61 said:


> I think they'll be good to go...............
> Until 0ne to three years later when their certification will run out, at which time they'll have to meet WHATEVER new standards the CPTC comes up with relative to FT or Bridge academy. Then again, it's all phukkin speculation cuz this was rushed and seems impractical in many aspects.


Just to touch on this - seems like it's gonna be a shit show. We have guys working PT with a 120 Hour long academy and guys working with the most current academy of nearly 400 hours.

where do you figure out the bridge academy hours needed to become certified?

what about guys (specials) who just work details? Will we have a separate "auxiliary academy"...

So vague. Any insight is appreciated.


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## RodneyFarva

Foxy85 said:


> Just to touch on this - seems like it's gonna be a shit show. We have guys working PT with a 120 Hour long academy and guys working with the most current academy of nearly 400 hours.
> 
> where do you figure out the bridge academy hours needed to become certified?
> 
> what about guys (specials) who just work details? Will we have a separate "auxiliary academy"...
> 
> So vague. Any insight is appreciated.


My prediction is part-time and auxiliary officer already working will be grandfathered in with a caveat of further training required to bring them up to par. Any and all new hires must have a full time academy to work as a police officer in the commonwealth. We may also see a push toward regionalization of smaller police departments, I don't think we are done with part time guys all together, but if you want to work PT, AUX, ect. you must have the fulltime academy at the time of your appointment.


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## 15453

jjm98 said:


> What is going to happen to recruits in the middle of a R/I academy? I see no mention in the bill that those will be given the chance to complete the class.


Well a friend of mine who was scheduled to start the PT academy run out of quinsig got put on hold pending the decision


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## Goose

devenob said:


> Well a friend of mine who was scheduled to start the PT academy run out of quinsig got put on hold pending the decision


Did they have to pass the law to find out what was in it...again?


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## Tailon630

https://www.masscopaction.com/

Here's another attempt to "appeal" to Baker to veto or change the bill... send an email doesn't hurt I guess


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## CCCSD

Emailed! Never hurts.


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## mpd61

Done


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## Bloodhound




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## NEPS

CCCSD said:


> Constables! Yeah! Their Day is coming.


Not so fast... in the bill, constables must go to an academy if they want to make any sort of arrest.


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## NEPS

Your advocacy mattered, by the way. The problems LED/John Scheft pointed out regarding the severe limitations to the use of force were addressed, mostly, in the conference version because officers and police unions complained to their representatives in the house of representatives.

And if the bill would make too many things subject to decertification, the standard of proof the POST would need for a decertification decision is not something cops can complain about: Your department can fire you and an arbitrator or civil service commission can keep you fired if there is a "preponderance of the evidence" (more likely than not) of your misconduct. POST, however, cannot decertify unless there is "clear and convincing" evidence of your misconduct. This odd and rare standard of evidence lies somewhere north of a preponderance but south of proof beyond reasonable doubt.

The anti-police crowd must have choked on voting for that part.

The Governor has the power to strike out provisions he does not want to become law and I believe he will do that. We will see what is to come today or tomorrow.


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## Roy Fehler

NEPS said:


> Not so fast... in the bill, constables must go to an academy if they want to make any sort of arrest.


I don't think anyone has a problem with that provision, except untrained constables.


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## CCCSD

Wait! Who needs training?


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## Goose

CCCSD said:


> Wait! Who needs training?


We're not leaving til we're heaving!!


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## Bloodhound

NEPS said:


> The Governor has the power to strike out provisions he does not want to become law and I believe he will do that. We will see what is to come today or tomorrow.


So much for that. Pretty much just wants to preserve the MPTC for training and won't sign otherwise.


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## Kilvinsky

After reading most of the Governor's proposal (and I really did read most of it) a lot of it got tedious so I used the "FIND" option and no where did I see the word CONSTABLE. Where does it say they have to go to an academy? I may have slipped by it.


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## Roy Fehler

Kilvinsky said:


> After reading most of the Governor's proposal (and I really did read most of it) a lot of it got tedious so I used the "FIND" option and no where did I see the word CONSTABLE. Where does it say they have to go to an academy? I may have slipped by it.


Don't ask questions, peon.


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## mpd61

225 hour Bridge Academy anyone!?!?


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## CCCSD

Way have an academy to learn how to build bridges? YouTube that shit!


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## NEPS

Kilvinsky said:


> After reading most of the Governor's proposal (and I really did read most of it) a lot of it got tedious so I used the "FIND" option and no where did I see the word CONSTABLE. Where does it say they have to go to an academy? I may have slipped by it.


In the original bill in line 581, constables are included in the definition of law enforcement officer when they make any arrest.


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## Kilvinsky

NEPS said:


> In the original bill in line 581, constables are included in the definition of law enforcement officer when they make any arrest.


I see. Interesting that it was removed.


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## Foxy85

mpd61 said:


> 225 hour Bridge Academy anyone!?!?


Huh? Lol


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## USM C-2

Kilvinsky said:


> I see. Interesting that it was removed.


Was it actually in a section the Gov's proposal removed, or was it just not mentioned in his proposal, therefore left as is? I haven't cross-checked the two, so unsure.


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