# 'Not where we want to be': Why Fall River police are having trouble finding good recruits



## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

'Not where we want to be': Why Fall River police are having trouble finding good recruits

Their numbers look similar to other cities and the overall state decrease in the 2021 signups. Mid 30%-40% decrease from 2017. Down almost 20% from 2019, which actually might not be as bad as the State total decrease. Either way, not what you want to see.


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## Kilvinsky (Jan 15, 2007)

Interesting article.


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

Kilvinsky said:


> Interesting article.


After reading it and seeing other sources talking about how numbers are way down from 2017 and 2019, it’s worrying to see. I bet you MSP pushed through this third academy off that 2017 list because they weren’t confident about a healthy number of people signing up to take this 2021 exam. Granted, the MSP aren’t the ones that’ll be hurting, it’ll be small munis and even some of the cities in the state. Only article I saw recently that talked about an uptick in registrations was for Springfield, go figure.


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## msw (Jul 19, 2004)

DPH1992 said:


> 'Not where we want to be': Why Fall River police are having trouble finding good recruits
> 
> Their numbers look similar to other cities and the overall state decrease in the 2021 signups. Mid 30%-40% decrease from 2017. Down almost 20% from 2019, which actually might not be as bad as the State total decrease. Either way, not what you want to see.


Every blue city in every blue state is going to have an increasingly hard time attracting and retaining qualified cops. What you are seeing is part of - the first baby steps of - the Left’s plan: Lower standards will be necessary in an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to provide proper policing. Add in some de-funding and a continuing demonization of local LE agencies until they are unable to provide a reasonably adequate level of service to protect their communities and at some point - might be several years, even a couple decades from now - those communities will be begging for a higher level of protection but won’t be able to get it. At that point, the Feds will have to step in with their own LE personnel to assist or take over. The Left cannot achieve their ultimate goals without a Federal Police Agency - similar to the National Police Forces in many countries - that _they_ control, and who will do their bidding. You youngsters will either see this come to pass, or at least see calls for it to happen. Thankfully, I’m old enough I will either not live to see this, or will be dribbling oatmeal down my chin in some old folk’s home waiting on someone to change my diaper by the time it happens.


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

msw said:


> Every blue city in every blue state is going to have an increasingly hard time attracting and retaining qualified cops. What you are seeing is part of - the first baby steps of - the Left’s plan: Lower standards will be necessary in an ultimately unsuccessful attempt to provide proper policing. Add in some de-funding and a continuing demonization of local LE agencies until they are unable to provide a reasonably adequate level of service to protect their communities and at some point - might be several years, even a couple decades from now - those communities will be begging for a higher level of protection but won’t be able to get it. At that point, the Feds will have to step in with their own LE personnel to assist or take over. The Left cannot achieve their ultimate goals without a Federal Police Agency - similar to the National Police Forces in many countries - that _they_ control, and who will do their bidding. You youngsters will either see this come to pass, or at least see calls for it to happen. Thankfully, I’m old enough I will either not live to see this, or will be dribbling oatmeal down my chin in some old folk’s home waiting on someone to change my diaper by the time it happens.


Definitely trending that way. I’ve got to meet who some of these people are that are signing up for this exam. It’s one thing to already be in LE, it’s another to wanting to get into right now in this climate.


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## KPD54 (Oct 30, 2020)

DPH1992 said:


> Definitely trending that way. I’ve got to meet who some of these people are that are signing up for this exam. It’s one thing to already be in LE, it’s another to wanting to get into right now in this climate.


I’d say it’s all about hope, at least for MA. I know I guy who’s taking the test because he’s wanted to be a trooper since he was a little boy. He hopes it’ll get better, and it’s been his passion forever. Honestly, if all the people like him give up, this profession, and this country are screwed


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

KPD54 said:


> I’d say it’s all about hope, at least for MA. I know I guy who’s taking the test because he’s wanted to be a trooper since he was a little boy. He hopes it’ll get better, and it’s been his passion forever. Honestly, if all the people like him give up, this profession, and this country are screwed


I think it says a lot about civil service too. Departments are going to really need to consider moving away from the civil service exam in the future. Hire just the same as any other federal, state or city job. Have a general application, agency specific test and go about it that way. The civil service system is archaic.


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

To be fair it does say one their patch "We'll Try" so there may be hope...I'm kidding we are all doomed, MSP have dipped in to the high 70's for their next class.


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## Roy Fehler (Jun 15, 2010)

DPH1992 said:


> I think it says a lot about civil service too. Departments are going to really need to consider moving away from the civil service exam in the future. Hire just the same as any other federal, state or city job. Have a general application, agency specific test and go about it that way. The civil service system is archaic.


No, it’s not archaic, it provides safeguards against political nepotism, as well as appeals processes if one is bypassed, disciplined, or terminated.

Usually the only people who are against the Civil Service system are those who were never able to be hired under that system.

If you’re not a cop yet, and want to be, be very careful of what you wish for. Expect to pay $100-200 for every single police exam you want to take for non-CS departments, vs. $150 to be considered for hundreds of CS municipalities, Transit PD, and MSP with the CS exam.


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

RodneyFarva said:


> To be fair it does say one their patch "We'll Try" so there may be hope...I'm kidding we are all doomed, MSP have dipped in to the high 70's for their next class.





Roy Fehler said:


> No, it’s not archaic, it provides safeguards against political nepotism, as well as appeals processes if one is bypassed, disciplined, or terminated.
> 
> Usually the only people who are against the Civil Service system are those who were never able to be hired under that system.
> 
> If you’re not a cop yet, and want to be, be very careful of what you wish for. Expect to pay $100-200 for every single police exam you want to take for non-CS departments, vs. $150 to be considered for hundreds of CS municipalities, Transit PD, and MSP with the CS exam.


Already on


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## USAF286 (May 20, 2011)

Roy Fehler said:


> No, it’s not archaic, it provides safeguards against political nepotism, as well as appeals processes if one is bypassed, disciplined, or terminated.
> 
> Usually the only people who are against the Civil Service system are those who were never able to be hired under that system.
> 
> If you’re not a cop yet, and want to be, be very careful of what you wish for. Expect to pay $100-200 for every single police exam you want to take for non-CS departments, vs. $150 to be considered for hundreds of CS municipalities, Transit PD, and MSP with the CS exam.


I went to that fine Westfield State University (was college when I attended) and I took probably 7-10 tests in the local area for the experience. Yes, I would of taken the job if offered but my point is that during the exams that I remember, a lot of the people taking the test would be smoking and joking with the staff and officers administering the test and it seemed like the test was just a formality for them. I don’t consider it a waste of money, but just REALLY expensive practice tests. 

Regardless, I ended up at civil service PD!


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## Roy Fehler (Jun 15, 2010)

USAF286 said:


> I went to that fine Westfield State University (was college when I attended) and I took probably 7-10 tests in the local area for the experience. Yes, I would of taken the job if offered but my point is that during the exams that I remember, a lot of the people taking the test would be smoking and joking with the staff and officers administering the test and it seemed like the test was just a formality for them. I don’t consider it a waste of money, but just REALLY expensive practice tests.
> 
> Regardless, I ended up at civil service PD!
> 
> ...


Thank you for proving my point, that’s common practice with non-CS departments. The CS exam is administered by neutral parties who don’t work for any police department. 

Non-CS exams are very often administered by members of that department, and you’re right, I witnessed the same kinds of things with a non-CS department down Cape Cod. One test-taker was greeted with a hearty backslap by one of the sergeants, followed by “Why are you bothering with this thing, you know you’re on!!”.

You don’t see that nonsense at the CS exam.


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

Roy Fehler said:


> Thank you for proving my point, that’s common practice with non-CS departments. The CS exam is administered by neutral parties who don’t work for any police department.
> 
> Non-CS exams are very often administered by members of that department, and you’re right, I witnessed the same kinds of things with a non-CS department down Cape Cod. One test-taker was greeted with a hearty backslap by one of the sergeants, followed by “Why are you bothering with this thing, you know you’re on!!”.
> 
> You don’t see that nonsense at the CS exam.


What I mostly meant was it opens the door to people in other cities/towns or even states have more of a shot of getting on. Your point is taken though, I could see that being a problem. It’d just be good to make specific cities or towns more viable for qualified people who aren’t from those cities/towns.


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## Treehouse413 (Mar 7, 2016)

Roy Fehler said:


> No, it’s not archaic, it provides safeguards against political nepotism, as well as appeals processes if one is bypassed, disciplined, or terminated.
> 
> Usually the only people who are against the Civil Service system are those who were never able to be hired under that system.
> 
> If you’re not a cop yet, and want to be, be very careful of what you wish for. Expect to pay $100-200 for every single police exam you want to take for non-CS departments, vs. $150 to be considered for hundreds of CS municipalities, Transit PD, and MSP with the CS exam.


We all have our opinions with civil service I was always an advocate but the system is broke and you’re limited . Some don’t always score well but are excellent candidates but you’ll never reach them w CS. I also don’t believe vets should go right to the top , sone of our candidates have been sub par . I don’t believe just because you’re a vet makes you officer material and yes I’m a VET who went to the top. I believe you should get points but not right to the top when some barely pass. Just my 2.


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## KPD54 (Oct 30, 2020)

Honestly, I like our(maine) system. You take the ALERT test, and you have to pass to be considered anywhere. Then, if you have good scores, agencies will contact you. However, you can also apply to departments, so long as you passed the exam. It’s a healthy mix. I don’t agree that PDs shouldn’t be able to hire people they know, that discourages building up a community in a department. At the same time, nepotism isn’t helpful, and hiring someone who is entirely unqualified is ideally rooted out by them failing the ALERT test. It’s not perfect, but I’d say it’s better than CS. It gives departments and candidates choice.


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

KPD54 said:


> Honestly, I like our(maine) system. You take the ALERT test, and you have to pass to be considered anywhere. Then, if you have good scores, agencies will contact you. However, you can also apply to departments, so long as you passed the exam. It’s a healthy mix. I don’t agree that PDs shouldn’t be able to hire people they know, that discourages building up a community in a department. At the same time, nepotism isn’t helpful, and hiring someone who is entirely unqualified is ideally rooted out by them failing the ALERT test. It’s not perfect, but I’d say it’s better than CS. It gives departments and candidates choice.


It sounds like an upgrade to CS at least.


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## USAF286 (May 20, 2011)

I’ve never understand why agencies spend so much time and energy on a candidate BEFORE the PAT and PT test. We have had several spots lost because PT failures. That should be something administered at the beginning of the hiring process IMO. 


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

USAF286 said:


> I’ve never understand why agencies spend so much time and energy on a candidate BEFORE the PAT and PT test. We have had several spots lost because PT failures. That should be something administered at the beginning of the hiring process IMO.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


And the Psych exam. Nothing like passing everything and then being told you’re crazy and we can’t hire you.


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## USAF286 (May 20, 2011)

DPH1992 said:


> And the Psych exam. Nothing like passing everything and then being told you’re crazy and we can’t hire you.


This moment in policing you’d be crazy to take the job in the first place! 


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## KPD54 (Oct 30, 2020)

How many people actually get told that they’re nuts?


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

USAF286 said:


> This moment in policing you’d be crazy to take the job in the first place!
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Well, at least in my case I’m doing better financially now that I’m on the job than I was before. There was no way I’d be making the type of money I’m making now doing anything else. There’s guys at my department that make more than Goldman Sachs investment bankers with only a high school diploma. Not many jobs that can offer that. 

So yeah, crazy to take the job, but also crazy to pass up the pay/benefits.


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## PG1911 (Jul 12, 2011)

DPH1992 said:


> And the Psych exam. Nothing like passing everything and then being told you’re crazy and we can’t hire you.


Happened to me twice. I passed the third psych test and got hired. Turned out the first two were right...


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

PG1911 said:


> Happened to me twice. I passed the third psych test and got hired. Turned out the first two were right...


I’ll never forget this one question that stood out to me. I can’t remember if it was on the state or my cities psych exam, but it was basically 

“If you are driving up to a bridge, what do you do?"
A. Find another route
B. Go over it
C. Slow down

I’m sitting there thinking to myself, I bet there’s some kid in here who will overthink this and pick A...


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## Kilvinsky (Jan 15, 2007)

KPD54 said:


> How many people actually get told that they’re nuts?


I'm guessing, not enough.


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## HistoryHound (Aug 30, 2008)

DPH1992 said:


> I’ll never forget this one question that stood out to me. I can’t remember if it was on the state or my cities psych exam, but it was basically
> 
> “If you are driving up to a bridge, what do you do?"
> A. Find another route
> ...


No option D?

D. Drive off it


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## Roy Fehler (Jun 15, 2010)

KPD54 said:


> How many people actually get told that they’re nuts?


The psychologist that the Boston PD used to use was fired, because she automatically disqualified anyone who served in the military. You could have been a Green Beret combat veteran, a cook, a cannon cocker, or a supply clerk, it didn’t matter, automatic DQ.

Thanks to Civil Service, most of them were overturned, another example of the safeguards of the CS system.


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

Roy Fehler said:


> The psychologist that the Boston PD used to use was fired, because she automatically disqualified anyone who served in the military. You could have been a Green Beret combat veteran, a cook, a cannon cocker, or a supply clerk, it didn’t matter, automatic DQ.
> 
> Thanks to Civil Service, most of them were overturned, another example of the safeguards of the CS system.


Not aware of that, but I do know we used to make guys who were off the job for 6 months or more to get another psychological evaluation. Fairly sure anything after 3 months off also required a physical examination too. Couple of the unions finally started fighting them on it.


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## msw (Jul 19, 2004)

Roy Fehler said:


> The psychologist that the Boston PD used to use was fired, because she automatically disqualified anyone who served in the military. You could have been a Green Beret combat veteran, a cook, a cannon cocker, or a supply clerk, it didn’t matter, automatic DQ.....


There were rumors that this same thing was going on at my very large agency about 25 years ago; one of the psychologists didn’t think guys with strong military backgrounds should be on the street. I also heard that the particular psychologist doing all these DQ’s was eventually “let go”. I doubt that attitude exists at our Dept now; our Sheriff is a veteran and I don’t think he’d put up with it. 

However, I would personally have to question the sanity of any person applying to an agency in a hard blue jurisdiction, in a hard blue state..... and consider the mere act of applying to such places - where the political overlords will throw you under the bus at the first hint of trouble or controversy - as indicative of that person’s lack of common sense and good judgment and therefore sufficient evidence to be disqualified! I told that to a recent applicant at such an agency, and he was actually offended by my comment. I told him he could of course disagree with this assessment of mine, but if he was actually “offended“ by my statement, then his skin was too thin to be a cop! He got offended at that too. Maybe it’s a generational thing. (Or maybe because I forgot to ask him - looked mostly like a him - his preferred pronouns when I first started talking to him.)


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

msw said:


> There were rumors that this same thing was going on at my very large agency about 25 years ago; one of the psychologists didn’t think guys with strong military backgrounds should be on the street. I also heard that the particular psychologist doing all these DQ’s was eventually “let go”. I doubt that attitude exists at our Dept now; our Sheriff is a veteran and I don’t think he’d put up with it.
> 
> However, I would personally have to question the sanity of any person applying to an agency in a hard blue jurisdiction, in a hard blue state..... and consider the mere act of applying to such places - where the political overlords will throw you under the bus at the first hint of trouble or controversy - as indicative of that person’s lack of common sense and good judgment and therefore sufficient evidence to be disqualified! I told that to a recent applicant at such an agency, and he was actually offended by my comment. I told him he could of course disagree with this assessment of mine, but if he was actually “offended“ by my statement, then his skin was too thin to be a cop! He got offended at that too. Maybe it’s a generational thing. (Or maybe because I forgot to ask him - looked mostly like a him - his preferred pronouns when I first started talking to him.)


The people who get on acting like they’re going to change the world are the ones who are crazy. At the end of the day this is a job and depending on your jurisdiction, it can be a very financially rewarding job. Whether people want to admit it or not at my agency that’s what gets a lot of them interested in the first place. If I see some kid who is working a dead end job, miserable and wants to better himself financially and maybe even try to do something positive then I won’t fault that person for applying. It depends where a person is coming from really. If you’re a college grad working a cushy gig somewhere with a suit and tie and you want to get into this line of work? Yeah, that person is clearly off their rocker.


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## HistoryHound (Aug 30, 2008)

msw said:


> There were rumors that this same thing was going on at my very large agency about 25 years ago; one of the psychologists didn’t think guys with strong military backgrounds should be on the street. I also heard that the particular psychologist doing all these DQ’s was eventually “let go”. I doubt that attitude exists at our Dept now; our Sheriff is a veteran and I don’t think he’d put up with it.
> 
> However, I would personally have to question the sanity of any person applying to an agency in a hard blue jurisdiction, in a hard blue state..... and consider the mere act of applying to such places - where the political overlords will throw you under the bus at the first hint of trouble or controversy - as indicative of that person’s lack of common sense and good judgment and therefore sufficient evidence to be disqualified! I told that to a recent applicant at such an agency, and he was actually offended by my comment. I told him he could of course disagree with this assessment of mine, but if he was actually “offended“ by my statement, then his skin was too thin to be a cop! He got offended at that too. Maybe it’s a generational thing. (Or maybe because I forgot to ask him - looked mostly like a him - his preferred pronouns when I first started talking to him.)


 It's this generation. I complained to my insurance company because they increased my premium by 50% just a couple months after I purchased the policy and paid in full. I spoke with customer service who was able to fix their mistake, but they told me I had to pay for the premium from when they made the mistake to when I caught it. Ummm no. Just no. So I called the sales agent that sold it to me and told him I'd cancel if they didn't fix it. He e-mailed me that it was all set. I e-mailed back that it wasn't. He ignored me so I left him a message that I cancelled the policy. Next thing I know I get an e-mail telling me that he doesn't need to be "threatened" in "numerous" calls and e-mails (2 calls, 1 e-mail reply) and that he doesn't need customers like me. If he was so offended by a customer saying I'm not paying for your mistake, I can only imagine how offended he's going to be when corporate reaches out to him.


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## KPD54 (Oct 30, 2020)

HistoryHound said:


> It's this generation. I complained to my insurance company because they increased my premium by 50% just a couple months after I purchased the policy and paid in full. I spoke with customer service who was able to fix their mistake, but they told me I had to pay for the premium from when they made the mistake to when I caught it. Ummm no. Just no. So I called the sales agent that sold it to me and told him I'd cancel if they didn't fix it. He e-mailed me that it was all set. I e-mailed back that it wasn't. He ignored me so I left him a message that I cancelled the policy. Next thing I know I get an e-mail telling me that he doesn't need to be "threatened" in "numerous" calls and e-mails (2 calls, 1 e-mail reply) and that he doesn't need customers like me. If he was so offended by a customer saying I'm not paying for your mistake, I can only imagine how offended he's going to be when corporate reaches out to him.


Its all how people are raised. So many parents raise their kids without consequences for anything. When they face the results of their actions and mommy aint around to handle it, they say "This cant be my fault, it must be someone else's fault that there are consequences"


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## DPH1992 (Mar 29, 2019)

HistoryHound said:


> It's this generation. I complained to my insurance company because they increased my premium by 50% just a couple months after I purchased the policy and paid in full. I spoke with customer service who was able to fix their mistake, but they told me I had to pay for the premium from when they made the mistake to when I caught it. Ummm no. Just no. So I called the sales agent that sold it to me and told him I'd cancel if they didn't fix it. He e-mailed me that it was all set. I e-mailed back that it wasn't. He ignored me so I left him a message that I cancelled the policy. Next thing I know I get an e-mail telling me that he doesn't need to be "threatened" in "numerous" calls and e-mails (2 calls, 1 e-mail reply) and that he doesn't need customers like me. If he was so offended by a customer saying I'm not paying for your mistake, I can only imagine how offended he's going to be when corporate reaches out to him.


Well, the insurance industry isn’t exactly filled with the most morally conscious people either. Sounds like a typical rep at an insurance company just being a d-bag.


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