# Dislike Vet preference?



## redsox03

From time to time some people on here complain about the preference Vets get with the CS. If you don't like it join the military, serve your country, go play in the giant sandbox across the water, do your time, get out, come back to Mass, get preference. It's as easy as that folks.

Here are some websites to help you people out:

www.goarmy.com
www.marines.com
www.airforce.com
www.navy.com
www.gocoastguard.com


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## KozmoKramer

I can't argue with you RS. When it comes to those that stepped up and put their name AND ass on the line, if it buys them a more favorable place in line; SO BE IT.

Vets ensure all of the liberties we enjoy in this great country are protected.

College is great, we need great thinkers and educated minds. But it's our warriors that preserve our Republic, not great thinkers.

Bumping them up on a CS list is a small price to pay for the sacrifice they make for all of us.

Personally, I would really take a dim view of anyone who begrudged a vet a few points on a CS exam.


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## Guest

mikemac64 said:


> Remember, Quinn was enacted to encourage police officers, mostly viet nam era vets at the time, to seek degrees.


The Quinn Bill arose after a study in the 1960's showed that police officers in Massachusetts were the least educated in the entire country. Now, I would wager we are the most educated of any government entity in the world by a large margin.

So of course, now the geniuses at the Beacon Hill Institute want to cut it. 



mikemac64 said:


> Though I would not put it past the legislature, I do not think they have the stones to cut Quinn as a matter of routine business. That said, I do see them possibly trying to limit new enrollees.


The only way they could alter it without incurring an absolute tsunami of lawsuits would be to grandfather anyone already in the program, and even then it would be a nightmare of litigation and bad feelings.


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## 7costanza

I totally agree 100 percent...Vets deserve preference....I follow all the threads pretty closely.....Im not second guessing anyone but I dont remember anyone complaining about Vet status...


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## KozmoKramer

I haven't seen it recently 7, but there were some not so supportive commentaries in the past...


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## 7costanza

Well this is for the people that have the balls to complain about women and men that serve their Country getting preference...


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## GodblessThearmy

Took me less than a year to get on the job after being discharged from active duty as a vet, those it took 10 years or so to get on, didn't agree... but a buddy of mine in WV named his son after me for a deed I did in Iraq. Explain that to those whose biggest rush has only been a foot chase.


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## redsox03

7costanza said:


> I totally agree 100 percent...Vets deserve preference....I follow all the threads pretty closely.....Im not second guessing anyone but I dont remember anyone complaining about Vet status...


It's been brought up a few times like Koz said. ProudAmerican made a good point in another thread about Vet preference yesterday and this came to mind.


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## Johnny Law

"Who,....who does not like the vet preference!?"


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## KozmoKramer

:L: Johnny...


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## Foxy85

No Quinn, no details, no academies.....wtf....

Deval isn't making very many friends among LE. That being said, if they disolve the Quinn bill, people whom would look at police work as an exciting career AND a good way to provide for their families will seek out other career opportunities. 

On top of that, you go west/south you get about the same pay, take home cruiser, and lower cost of living.....

I predict down the line, if all of this starts happening....police exams will be as frequent as the DOC exams...


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## Guest

mikemac64 said:


> The legislature could defund or amend Quinn tomorrow.


Actually, they couldn't. Someone in either the house or senate (or both) would have to draft legislation that eliminated or altered Section 108L of Chapter 41 of the MGL, it would be subject to public hearings, committee hearings, then pass the necessary committees before going to a full vote of the legislature. If it passes all that, it goes to the governor for his signature. All that would take considerably longer than one day.



mikemac64 said:


> Anyway, who would you sue? The legislature? I am no con law professor but I am pretty sure they are immune from being sued for doing their legisative duty (voting). If Deval unilaterally changed it as part of his crusade I think he would be exposed to legal action.


They can certainly vote the law out of existence, but if they simply don't fund something which the law states shall be funded, there's certainly room there for judicial review.

In any case, the majority of the lawsuits would be against the municipalities, unless there is specific language in the CBA which states the city/town *shall not* foot the entire bill if the state reneges on their portion. I don't think even Coupe Deval is stupid enough to incur that kind of wrath from 200+ cities & towns.


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## Mike7913

This is definitely a subject that people have a lot of heated conversations about. This site particularly has a lot of veterans so it's always one-sided. I will give my two cents being a veteran and someone who has earned master's degree.
Now I do agree that Veterans deserve some type of preference. It should be 5 points on a civil service exam. Period. If you score an 85 (including the 5 additional points) an a non-veteran scores an 86, then the non-veteran should be hired.
A lot of people say if you want be a cop in MA, then join the military to get the extra help. Well, I can say first hand that I have come across guys who joined the military just because they were indecisive on what to do with their life, could not afford college or too stupid to accepted. I personally feel that only military personnel who have experienced combat should get this preference or someone who actually joined the service for the main reason of "honoring this country and fighting for everyone's freedom" and doing 20 yrs and retiring.Are there morons who go to college? 
A lot of Veterans don't want to give college graduates any additional preference. For some of you who have gone to college, you can understand that doing a term paper isn't the easiest of tasks. MA has the Quinn Bill which is fortunate for those who possess a degree and gives them that little extra. Do I think that military experience is a great experience? Most definitely! I just think that there has to be an easier way for a hiring process. A college grad who has always wanted to be a PO really has an outside chance compared to someone who decided to go into the service for 4 yrs, who typically only enlisted because they had no goals at that current time in their life. Let's also keep in mind that this college student had most likely racked up a $100K plus in tuition loans. 
I am not trying to start any heated conversations here, but it just should be noted how inpartial the process is here in our state of MA. I always suggest to non-veterans to apply to a federal agency. It is a great avenue and tremendous experience. Of course I love my fellow brothers in the military, local, state and corrections LE.
Please stay safe gentlemen.


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## Edmizer1

The State Police 2 point preference is an example of the system that should be used. It would be tough to pull the rug out from under those currently serving so there would have to be some sort of sunset clause if the system is ever changed. I know some great vet cops but there were several in my academy that were there just because the fire department didn't call them first. My brother was considered a vet under civil service even though he was never within a thousand miles of combat. He never had a thought in the back of his mind of taking a cs test but did so after he found out about the preference. He backed out of a Boston Fire job at the last second. He had no interest in becoming a firefighter but applied just because he thought he was entitled to it.


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## kwflatbed

If you don't like the way veterans preference is given in MA then move the fuck out.

Any man or woman that serves their country deserves it,and you can not
compare it to writing a term paper in college.

The reason it is one sided on MassCops is because the veterans on this site have have not hid in some college dorm partying smoking pot and
protesting god knows what else. They have done their job protecting
you and your rights serving in the Armed Services.

It makes my blood boil when comments are made about taking anything
away from a veteran that they have earned.


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## HuskyH-2

I don't think anything should be taken from vets although i do prefer the MSP form of preference over the Civil Service. However i also don't think it would be outrageous to give college graduates some type of preference in the examinations. I think both service and higher education are assets to any department.


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## WaterPistola

the preference the college graduates receive is the education that allows them to comprehend the reading passages, etc. opposed to say just a HS grad?


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## HuskyH-2

WaterPistola said:


> the preference the college graduates receive is the education that allows them to comprehend the reading passages, etc. opposed to say just a HS grad?


thats not a preference, that would be an advantage, like military vets having an advantage over non vets in the physical aspects of the examinations and academy do to their superior training.


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## jettsixx

Regardless of whether they have seen combat or not. They signed up knowing full well that they could be put in harms way at anytime. I think the preferance is the least we can do for the Vets. If it wasnt for them we woulnd have anything. I also feel that they should get free health care for life. I am not a Veteran. I do respect and admire all of our Military. Thank you.


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## HuskyH-2

jettsixx said:


> Regardless of whether they have seen combat or not. They signed up knowing full well that they could be put in harms way at anytime. I think the preferance is the least we can do for the Vets.


Agreed


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## Killjoy

> Well, I can say first hand that I have come across guys who joined the military just because they were indecisive on what to do with their life, could not afford college or too stupid to accepted.


Well I can say I have personally come across plenty of college students who were immature, arrogant, spoiled shitbirds, and went to college because their parents are footing the bill for it. Does that make them better or worse?

I was indecisive what to do with my life and the military did wonders to give me focus. What the man or woman in uniform does differently then the college student is that he or she _sacrifices_ so that others don't have to. What I mean by sacrifice is their time, youth, fun they could be having, personal freedom, comfort and if need be, their lives.



> I personally feel that only military personnel who have experienced combat should get this preference or someone who actually joined the service for the main reason of "honoring this country and fighting for everyone's freedom" and doing 20 yrs and retiring.


What do you define as "combat"? I was in the Air Force, fixing birds in Saudi during the first Gulf War and later on in a separate deployment (Desert Fox), so I get Veterans preference. But I never took a shot at anyone, and the only thing ever shot at me were Scuds. However I did work my ass off 12+ hours a day, seven days a week, sweating my balls off in MOPP 4 gear half the time. Many jobs in the military are essentially the same whether we are in a time of war or peace. Men and women in the military work, ride and live around hazardous, dangerous equipment in frankly very uncomfortable environments. What's the difference to the man launching planes off a carrier deck whether the planes are loaded hot or for training? What about the guy working on the reactor of a nuke sub? What about the guy fixing tanks in 120 heat? How about the coast guard diver rescuing a fisherman from icy Atlantic waters? Does he qualify on your list? With a volunteer armed forces I feel all members, whether they served in "combat" or not deserve the highest amount of respect and consideration from the citizens of the nation.



> Are there morons who go to college?


Plenty actually. I've arrested many for drunk driving, minor in the possession of alcohol, 94C, and litany of other crimes. Some I've pushed off the quad as Umass as they set fire to everything and anything and thrown bottles at me.



> For some of you who have gone to college, you can understand that doing a term paper isn't the easiest of tasks.


Well I've been to college and served in the military, and I can tell you hands down, that sitting at a computer, writing a term paper doesn't even qualify on my scale of discomfort in comparison to changing a 70-pound radar component in 100 degree heat while wearing a gas mask. In fact, doing term papers were downright easy in comparison. In fact, I find it highly amusing you would have the gall to compare writing a term paper to any aspect of military service. Why don't you experience day one of boot camp of any service, then let me know what's the "easier of tasks"?



> A college grad who has always wanted to be a PO really has an outside chance compared to someone who decided to go into the service for 4 yrs, who typically only enlisted because they had no goals at that current time in their life. Let's also keep in mind that this college student had most likely racked up a $100K plus in tuition loans.


Not everyone joins the military because they have "no goals" in their life. Isn't wanting to serve and defend this great nation a laudable goal? A college student serves only himself, the soldier, sailor, airman or marine serves the entire nation. If you had an inkling of the amount of blood, sweat and tears than service members have to endure to protect you and this nation, you would feel ashamed to even type that sentence.

BTW, how exactly is racking up student loans compare to risking one's life? Any fool can accumulate debt.

The reason that veterans get preference is that serving in the military is all about putting yourself between the civilian and those who would do us harm. Those in the military volunteered to do this arduous duty, and sometimes have to sacrifice their lives to accomplish this goal. Ultimately, the goal of the police officer is similar; they place themselves between the innocents and the criminals of the world, sacrificing their lives, if need be. Those in the military have already stepped up to the plate once before, and if they want to continue to carry the burden as police officers, we should reward them for their service.


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## 7costanza

I cant believe we have come to this...Killjoy said it about as good as it can be said....I look at it very simply either serve and get Vet preference or shut the fuck up and appreciate those who have risked their lives for the greatest Country in the World....God Bless all that have served , I appreciate you guys/girls more than I can say..


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## redsox03

Mike7913 said:


> I will give my two cents being a veteran


:---)


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## Guest

I was formulating a lengthy response, but Killjoy summed up all my thoughts already.


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## KozmoKramer

Exceptionally well done Killjoy, as usual. :thumbup:


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## WaterPistola

true but I didn't get shot at when i was in college...(didn't bother "rioting" haha). so I think if someone wants to take 4 years of their life and give them to their country then the least they could get is a preference on a civil service exam. I'm thinking about it... I'm on the fence though.


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## kwflatbed

WaterPistola said:


> true but I didn't get shot at when i was in college...(didn't bother "rioting" haha). so I think if someone wants to take 4 years of their life and give them to their country then the least they could get is a preference on a civil service exam. I'm thinking about it... I'm on the fence though.


Quit thinking about it and step up to the plate.


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## HuskyH-2

LawMan3 said:


> There may not be preference for non-vets in exams, but if a non-vet makes it on somewhere in this state, a lot of depts have the Quinn Bill which gives them quite a boost in base pay. There's no Quinn Bill for veterans UNLESS they serve AND get a college degree.
> 
> I may not be a vet but you don't hear me bitching about not getting couple points tacked onto my exam. It is how it is, and like kwflatbed said, if you don't like it, get out...there are 49 other states out there.


Couple things I respectively disagree with. As far as i can tell no one is this thread has bitched about vets getting preference i think its unanimous as far as this thread, in favor. Also somewhere you made the assumption that non-vets all have degrees which isn't the case.

As far as if you don't like it get out, I have to say thats a little ridiculous. If you really don't like something id say stop complaining and try and do something about it. I know theres a lot of people on this forum who don't like a lot of things about the state at the moment, I don't think the ultimate answer is for us to "get out if we don't like it", although we may juggle the idea.


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## Guest

TrooperzSon said:


> As far as if you don't like it get out, I have to say thats a little ridiculous. If you really don't like something id say stop complaining and try and do something about it. I know theres a lot of people on this forum who don't like a lot of things about the state at the moment, I don't think the ultimate answer is for us to "get out if we don't like it", although we may juggle the idea.


Big difference....those of us already on the job have established our careers, and in some cases our families, in this state. It would a major life disruption to move out now.

If I were still young, single, and especially not a veteran, I would have moved on to greener pastures years ago.


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## crisco88

Vets have the right to the preference!!! Sacrificing your life for the greater good of our country is important! It shows you care about our great nation, and why shouldn't someone be rewarded for giving up what many (if you enlist at 18 or around there) are considered the best years of your life? The military teaches discipline, teamwork and a sense that it is not about you (a lot of teenagers need this, watch MTV, also I believe it should be mandatory, like Israel) but the greater good of the whole! Don't like the rules saw this at school this week........... Scroll down and look to the left...NOV 22nd.......you can get a job real quick..............There are other parts of the country other than TAXACHUSETTS!!!

http://www.nypdrecruit.com/


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## HuskyH-2

LawMan3 said:


> Firstly, NEVER assume (we all know the saying). And secondly, there are plenty of other states that are hurting for police recruits. Massachusetts is known to be one of the tougher states to get on in, so if anyone doesn't like the fact that there is a tad of preference for one group over another, there's the door. Nothing meant to take offensively, just stating the bare facts.


Fair enough, like I said before I have no problem with vet pref and if they somehow made a education pref or something along those lines, I wouldn't be outraged by that either. O and I said the assumption comment because you said if a non vet makes it on they'll get a pay boost if its a Quinn Department, just a miscommunication.

Out of curiosity besides, fire fighting are they any other jobs that generally have vet preference?


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## kwflatbed

TrooperzSon said:


> Fair enough, like I said before I have no problem with vet pref and if they somehow made a education pref or something along those lines, I wouldn't be outraged by that either. O and I said the assumption comment because you said if a non vet makes it on they'll get a pay boost if its a Quinn Department, just a miscommunication.
> 
> Out of curiosity besides, fire fighting are they any other jobs that generally have vet preference?


1. If you search you will find many posts against the vets preference

2. You have not been on the site long enough to see all of the asshats.

3. Most employers look at military experience as a plus when doing interviews.


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## bean6180

You know it's funny that I stumbled across this conversation. I have been spinning my wheels trying to get on a force for the last few years. Lately I've been toying with the idea of joining the Army to become an MP to serve my country, get some discipline, get training and eventually get veterans preference. I should state first and foremost that I've been feeling the tug to serve for a while now, so it's not just a selfish move. I'm only hesitant because I'm 29 now.. not 19, so I'd walk out at 34. But this would be a great opportunity to get some discipline in my life. 

I spoke with a recuiter the other night and it's looking like a good option for me. Thoughts?


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## kwflatbed

bean6180 said:


> You know it's funny that I stumbled across this conversation. I have been spinning my wheels trying to get on a force for the last few years. Lately I've been toying with the idea of joining the Army to become an MP to serve my country, get some discipline, get training and eventually get veterans preference. I should state first and foremost that I've been feeling the tug to serve for a while now, so it's not just a selfish move. I'm only hesitant because I'm 29 now.. not 19, so I'd walk out at 34. But this would be a great opportunity to get some discipline in my life.
> 
> I spoke with a recuiter the other night and it's looking like a good option for me. Thoughts?


29 or 19 it will never hurt you joining the armed services, the benefits outweigh all of the negatives.


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## 4233

I don't think vets should get total preference. The way the SP do it is the right way. Thanks for your service here's your 2 points. I am an academy trained full time police officer who scored a 10. I have no shot at even an interview because the town I live in only hires a few officers off every exam and I have 10 vets ahead of me. Why not make it fair for everybody who pays the 100 bucks and let the top scores get the interview and let the chief decide who is the better candidate. Not every vet makes a good cop. And don't tell me to “get out” this is where my home is and where my children go to school. I also have an honorable discharge from the Army Reserve but unfortunately I never deployed.


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## kwflatbed

4233 said:


> I don't think vets should get total preference. The way the SP do it is the right way. Thanks for your service here's your 2 points. I am an academy trained full time police officer who scored a 10. I have no shot at even an interview because the town I live in only hires a few officers off every exam and I have 10 vets ahead of me. Why not make it fair for everybody who pays the 100 bucks and let the top scores get the interview and let the chief decide who is the better candidate. Not every vet makes a good cop. And don't tell me to "get out" this is where my home is and where my children go to school. I also have an honorable discharge from the Army Reserve but unfortunately I never deployed.


*IF* you are an academy trained full time police officer and have a job why the hell are you bitching and complaining ?

"Not every vet makes a good cop" and not everyone who graduates from the academy can cut it on the street either.

The 10 vets in front of you also paid their $100.00 + their service.

As far as telling you to get out it doesn't change, don't let the door
hit you at the state line.


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## Macop

I don't think 4233 is slamming VETs, just making a valid point. No one is perfect no matter what they have, academy, VET status and all that.


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## Mike7913

4223, you said it perfectly. The minicipal CS exam should work exactly like the MSP does it...2 points. None of this automatic Vet preference or PAR 10 BS. Once again, I am a Vet (happy B-day to the USMC BTW) and I absolutely agree that everyone should get a fair shot at a job. USMCMP, how long did you serve? If you actually joined the military to honor your country and fight for everyone's freedom, then you should have done your 20 yrs and retired. Then I will honestly say that you deserved the VET PREFERENCE without doubt. 
Now, I will let you in on some info Mr.KwFlatbed, when interviewing with a Federal Agency, they will most certainly lean towards having a bachelors degree over military experience. Period. Obviously, having served in any branch will of course look good on a resume, but it always seems as though you and some other guys here put down education. Someone mentioned previously on this thread that they've arrested college students because they were immature or for their drunkeness, etc... I can't tell you how many military or former military personnel that we have taken in on warrants for all kinds of BS. I think this is worse too, considering this person was taught how to be disciplined.
That being said having military background or a degree will not make someone a better cop...you and I both know it's up to the individual that wants to strive to be the best they can as a public servant. So why not give the opportunity to all of the best candidates? 4223 made a tremendous example...a smaller town who's budget can only afford to hire a few cops at a time is only limiting themselves to candidates who may not be the most qualified. 
I feel as though I have done a lot to serve my country and great state of MA for my military/civilian service...I'm sure you have even done more since you're 30 yrs my senior and I respect you for that (I'm sure many other guys on this board too), but for you to say "Get out" if you don't like it then shame on you for disrespecting another brothers views and being a closed minded person. I can sit here and say that I could care less about anyone else since I'm settled and have a job that I've always wanted to do but there are so many people out there that deserve the opportunity and are not getting the chance. The response of "Go join the military or get out" is definitely not the answer either.


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## Guest

Mike7913 said:


> The minicipal CS exam





Mike7913 said:


> Now, I will let you in on some info Mr.KwFlatbed, when interviewing with a Federal Agency, they will most certainly lean towards having a bachelors degree over military experience.


One would hope that someone with a college degree would know how to spell "municipal".


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## WaterPistola

talking about those federal positions...it even says on usajobs.com preference is given to those that have served in the United States Military...


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## kwflatbed

*TrooperzSon now you are starting to see why I answered your post the way I did.*

*They are crawling out from under their rocks.*

*Ken you are right on the money with your replies.*


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## CJstudentWSC

Not yet a cop, but I can see both sides of this:

A) I've been rejected by both Army and Marines for personal reasons (_extremely _personal, so please don't ask me to specify), so I don't like this putting me at a disadvantage. It's not that I'm not willing to serve -believe me I want to, but that I'm not allowed to.

but

B) Vets deserve preference in gratitude for their service and military skills/experience do directly translate into LE service.

For those reasons, I do believe in vets' preference, even if it does hurt me personally.


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## Guest

USMCMP5811 said:


> CJ, the question I have is, will those reasons why you were disqualified for duty in the armed services disqualify you also from a PD?


I personally wouldn't hire someone who was rejected by the armed forces, no offense CJ.


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## KozmoKramer

CJstudentWSC said:


> Not yet a cop, but I can see both sides of this.


Well I must humbly disagree CJ.
I'm sorry for the impediment that prevented your joining the service, but that notwithstanding, vets deserve an exclusive place at the head of the line; and that IMHO is indisputable.

College is not a sacrifice, working 2 jobs is not a sacrifice and waiting for your spot on a Civil Service list is not a sacrifice.

Saying goodbye to your parents, wife, husband, brothers & sisters and most especially your children (with no guarantee you'll return) is a sacrifice.
Spending 8-10-or more weeks training in extreme heat and cold is a sacrifice.
Being sent several thousand miles away to a foreign and hostile land, where people are waiting to kill you is a sacrifice.

All the while bringing home a whopping $300.00 a week as an E-1 or an astonishing $600.00 a week as an E-7 (if you commit to 20+ years without being killed first).

I don't see both sides. I see 1 side; those who signed on the line and committed their lives to something a hell of a lot tougher than waiting for a slot in a civil service list to open up.

We have what we have in this great country because of vets and they deserve a hell of a lot more than they get.


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## fra444

I absolutely agree with Kozmo... You just need to make sure you get the best of the vets available. I work with a few that the other side could use as a shining example of why there should not be a vet preferance!!!


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## Guest

KozmoKramer said:


> All the while bringing home a whopping $300.00 a week as an E-1 or an astonishing $600.00 a week as an E-7 (if you commit to 20+ years without being killed first).


When I was an E-1 in basic training (granted this was many years ago), my net pay for a MONTH was $390.00.


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## KozmoKramer

The base pay was too low then, and it's too low now Bruce.
It always has been and sadly it always will be.


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## 7costanza

I cant even believe we hae a thread called " Dislike Vet preference ? " everytime I see it pop up I cringe...


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## Guest

KozmoKramer said:


> The base pay was too low then, and it's too low now Bruce.
> It always has been and sadly it always will be.


That was even after Ronnie Reagan gave us a big raise! inch:

When I was in the Gulf, I actually did pretty well monetarily with combat pay, BAQ, no state tax, no expenses back home, etc., but I agree; you don't join the military to get rich.


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## Mike7913

CJStudentWSC, I think the issue people have is with the Civil Service's "Absolute Preference" for Vets for the municipal exam. Obviously, Police, Fire and Corrections are an essential part of govt. and therefore, should take every "BEST" possible candidate. Civil Service was created to be based on a merit-system; highest scorers are placed at the top of the list just like every other state. Period. 
Now, I do agree to recognize the sacrifice of veterans by giving them a few extra points like they do on the MSP and DOC exams. If you cannot score higher than someone when given additional points, then you do not deserve to get the job over them. And shame on you for being a moron too because that test is pretty easy.
Quick example: a fews yrs back, Boston PD had 492 candidates score a 95 or higher. Only 1 of these 492 top scorers landed in the first 75 positions on the hiring list. This method is absurd.
And for the people (like Kozmo) who argue that there is only one side to this issue, this just proves that you were one of the lower scoring candidates who scored a half-ass 71 and owe your job to the civil service commission. Don't forget to send them a thank you card.


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## screamineagle

Like Harry said, if you don't like the way it works, leave. Its not hard to figure out. It is the way it is. No whining is gonna change it. Want vets preference? Man up and Join.


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## Guest

I would rather see them address the absolute Residency Preference. Vet preference is fine with me.


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## Tuna

Mike7913 said:


> CJStudentWSC,
> Quick example: a fews yrs back, Boston PD had 492 candidates score a 95 or higher. Only 1 of these 492 top scorers landed in the first 75 positions on the hiring list. This method is absurd.
> And for the people (like Kozmo) who argue that there is only one side to this issue, this just proves that you were one of the lower scoring candidates who scored a half-ass 71 and owe your job to the civil service commission. Don't forget to send them a thank you card.


 You know why so many non vets scored high? They were home studying while the Vets were deployed to the sandbox or some other armpit on this planet without the comforts of home, family or being a fulltime student. I really don't think they have study guides in Bagdad. As for the insult to a highly respected member of this board, that just shows the world your immaturity and lack of professionalisim. You know the difference between baby and a non vet? when you gve the baby what they want they stop CRYING.


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## Foxy85

Mike7913 said:


> CJStudentWSC, I think the issue people have is with the Civil Service's "Absolute Preference" for Vets for the municipal exam. Obviously, Police, Fire and Corrections are an essential part of govt. and therefore, should take every "BEST" possible candidate. Civil Service was created to be based on a merit-system; highest scorers are placed at the top of the list just like every other state. Period.
> Now, I do agree to recognize the sacrifice of veterans by giving them a few extra points like they do on the MSP and DOC exams. If you cannot score higher than someone when given additional points, then you do not deserve to get the job over them. And shame on you for being a moron too because that test is pretty easy.
> Quick example: a fews yrs back, Boston PD had 492 candidates score a 95 or higher. Only 1 of these 492 top scorers landed in the first 75 positions on the hiring list. This method is absurd.
> And for the people (like Kozmo) who argue that there is only one side to this issue, this just proves that you were one of the lower scoring candidates who scored a half-ass 71 and owe your job to the civil service commission. Don't forget to send them a thank you card.


Again with the idiot newbies.... Why can't you attempt to make a point, agree or disagree, without becoming vulgar, and disrespectful. WTF.

How hard is it to just come here, and speak your mind without becoming an idiot? Apparently its challenging


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## Mike7913

This is too comical. Let me clear something up here with your comment Foxy85. An idiot is someone who posts a rebuttle stating that there is only one side to this issue. Why? Becuase it favors that particular person? I made the point of how I believe the "absolute preference" is not fair to the non-vet test takers. And read some previous posts, there's a lot of comments that are insulting, etc...who cares, a little ball-breaking with some conversation isn't all that bad. What's wrong with just giving a couple points for Vet preference? The bottom line is they should hire off of test score. Don't you think that the top scorers regardless of their background be given the opportunity? Then the PD can weed out the non-qualifiers during the interview process. But at least give everyone a shot who scores well enough. Whether you're a college grad w/ a master's degree or a decorated war vet who scores a 71 percent on the test, it doesn't make a difference...it should be based on the results. I usually give advice to guys who want to get on the job to take the MPD/DOC exam since they give a reasonable Vet preference method. Besides, the money is better with those two positions anyhow.
And please don't call me a newbie. What to this site? Please. Let's not get carried away here. You're 23 right? You still have a lot to learn buddy. 
And screamingeagle, who is whining? I just gave my personel opinion that is it. This topic doesn't even effect me whatsoever! I'm a former Marine (yes a VET) and have been on the job with the Marshals for 8 yrs.
That being said, we're all on the same side here...we should just be entitled to have some friendly indifferences once in a while.


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## OfficerObie59

Mike7913 said:


> And please don't call me a newbie. What to this site? Please. Let's not get carried away here. You're 23 right? You still have a lot to learn buddy.


Something YOU need to learn and something I was quick to observe about this site is how many of the norms common in military and para-military organizations extend to posting one's opinions. Something the military fully prepared me for in the scope of policing was to STFU--or at least be very humble--until I had proved myself to my brothers, whether they were my Army buddies, or my fellow officers. I do believe that's why you were addressed as a "newbie" (and properly so). If that bothers you, tell flatbed...I'm sure he'll apply an appropriate remedy...

In relation to the topic at hand, my opinion is consistent with one I've read on this site countless times: many elements of military discipline relate directly to policework. But that isn't the only reason for veteran's preference. The veterans preference was put in place mainly so that those who spend four years serving their country instead of sitting in a classroom will have equitable oppurtunities for post discharge employment. If that bothers you, go pound sand--as I did, everyday, for sixteen months in the fu#$ing desert.


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## Tango

*There is no danger or risk, unless you count someone shaving off your ebrows after passing out at a kegger as risky*

ahhh the memories!

Im a non-vet that got on the job, I fully support the vet preference. We all know there is more than a test score when it comes to who can do this job and who can't. I think the point someone made here, the one that Vets don't typically have time to "study and prepare" for the written is very valid. If I was to do it again, I would have gone military vs college....Im lucky things worked out for me.


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## Guest

Once agin da spellun majers cum out two play.......... Hope mommy and daddy are proud of the tuitions they will be paying for for many years. Repeat after me. "Paper or plastic?".

I'm biting my lip. I have many facets that I can add or spin to this but most of it has already been said by other Vets and I am not getting myself all worked up on Sunday afternoon for a bunch of college kids stuck in their dorms because the snowdrifts are almost up to their VAGINAS. Do what I did to pass the time kids. Take off your clothes, get in the elevator, run through the lobby and streak the campus. Run back in, take the stairs directly to your room, and PRAY nobody IDs you.


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## Guest

Mike7913 said:


> An idiot is someone who posts a rebuttle stating that there is only one side to this issue.


An idiot also spells rebuttal "rebuttle".



Mike7913 said:


> I'm a former Marine (yes a VET) and have been on the job with the Marshals for 8 yrs.


Another bitter person who couldn't get hired as a police officer in Massachusetts.


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## OfficerObie59

Sniper said:


> I am not getting myself all worked up on Sunday afternoon for a bunch of college kids stuck in their dorms because the snowdrifts are almost up to their VAGINAS.


 :L:


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## KozmoKramer

Mike7913 said:


> And for the people (like Kozmo) who argue that there is only one side to this issue, this just proves that you were one of the lower scoring candidates who scored a half-ass 71 and owe your job to the civil service commission. Don't forget to send them a thank you card.


Well you got me there Mike, except for a couple of important points.
1. I'm not a vet, and 2. I've never worked a civil service job in my life.
Before you make comments that make you look like a jackass, know WTF you're talking about.

My opinion about the vet preference has ZERO to do with my situation and wholly based on my view that's vets deserve more than they get, A LOT MORE.
And if that means a boost on the Civil Service list, so be it.
I'm surprised someone who passes himself off as a vet hasn't a little more empathy for those who served.



fra444 said:


> I absolutely agree with Kozmo... You just need to make sure you get the best of the vets available.
> I work with a few that the other side could use as a shining example of why there should not be a vet preferance!!!


Fra - as with any profession, you have lazy, dumb, do nothing vets, just as you have lazy, dumb, do nothing MBA's.
Because one has a degree, that does not automatically confer any level of smartness, just an ability to learn.
I'll hire a candidate with solid common sense and an ability to communicate over a double major who couldn't find a couch in a living room.

But that being said, it's the system you have, and I thinks it's the right policy.


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## 94c

Mike7913 said:


> This is too comical. Let me clear something up here with your comment Foxy85. An idiot is someone who posts a rebuttle stating that there is only one side to this issue. Why? Becuase it favors that particular person? I made the point of how I believe the "absolute preference" is not fair to the non-vet test takers. And read some previous posts, there's a lot of comments that are insulting, etc...who cares, a little ball-breaking with some conversation isn't all that bad. What's wrong with just giving a couple points for Vet preference? The bottom line is they should hire off of test score. Don't you think that the top scorers regardless of their background be given the opportunity? Then the PD can weed out the non-qualifiers during the interview process. But at least give everyone a shot who scores well enough. Whether you're a college grad w/ a master's degree or a decorated war vet who scores a 71 percent on the test, it doesn't make a difference...it should be based on the results. I usually give advice to guys who want to get on the job to take the MPD/DOC exam since they give a reasonable Vet preference method. Besides, the money is better with those two positions anyhow.
> And please don't call me a newbie. What to this site? Please. Let's not get carried away here. You're 23 right? You still have a lot to learn buddy.
> And screamingeagle, who is whining? I just gave my personel opinion that is it. This topic doesn't even effect me whatsoever! I'm a former Marine (yes a VET) and have been on the job with the Marshals for 8 yrs.
> That being said, we're all on the same side here...we should just be entitled to have some friendly indifferences once in a while.


Listen Mike, many guys have gotten on the job without military experience. I happen to be one of them.

What bothers me is that everybody knows the rules going in and they are the same for everyone.

Want to improve your chances? Can't get on right now?
Join the military.

If I wanted this job bad enough, and I couldn't get on, then guess what? I'd have some serious choices to make in my life.

Again, the rules are the same for everyone.


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## Mike7913

Ok, I'll try to respond to all of your posts the best that I can. 94C, nice post, exactly what you stated is what the commonwealth is pretty much saying to all of the test takers. I, along with others just happen to disagree with it. The military is not for everyone...nor is college. I just think that taking the highest test scores gives the most equal opportunity. Kozmo, I am not saying that someone with a college degree is smarter or will make a better police officer. Once again, regardless of the person's education/military background, just take the highest score results from the exam. And what more empathy do you want? I did say that I am absolutely for giving additional points to vets, just not automatically placing them at the top of the list. I think that alone is an advantage. Instead of telling people to "join the military if you want to increase your chances," doesn't it sound more reasonabe to say just get a high score? It's just not consistent since the State Police and DOC just allow 2 points for preference.
At any rate fellas, I'm not going to go back and forth...it's not going to change and I wish all of our future brothers a safe career once they're hired off this upcoming exam. Oh yeah Sniper, maybe you should fully read my previous posts since I'm not some college kid trying to land a LEO job. 
And Delta this is directed your way too. I'm definitely not bitter considering I've had a great gig with the USMS for the past 8 yrs and I'm not just stuck in some cruiser with the heat blasted right now while the swamp ass kicks in and taking out my frustration about my details being taken away by the state, on a citizen speeding by. But you know what? If there is a petition in the near future to bring back the details to PD and not allow civilian flag men to be the "go to" for your money making gig, then I will be the first to sign it. Unless you're as gifted as SNIPER and can get on the SRT. I suggest taking the upcoming Trooper exam. (unless you're a trooper now) But keep in mind that you'll only be getting 2 points...so make sure you study.
For everyone else, I think you're taking my opinion the wrong way. I will always respect the military and fellow vets. Obviously, trying to get your point across via a message board can be difficult or misconstrued (Hey Delta, did I spell that one right?)...I think if we all had a conversation in person it would be a friendly one. Most of all, regardless what is said on this thread it would my pleasure to work with all of you and I wish you a great holiday along with your family.
Be safe...


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## Guest

Mike7913 said:


> And Delta this is directed your way too. I'm definitely not bitter considering I've had a great gig with the USMS for the past 8 yrs


1. Your hostility towards the CS veteran's preference clearly indicates otherwise.

2. I work with at least one person who couldn't wait to leave the USMS to come to my department.



Mike7913 said:


> and I'm not just stuck in some cruiser with the heat blasted right now while the swamp ass kicks in and taking out my frustration about my details being taken away by the state, on a citizen speeding by. But you know what? If there is a petition in the near future to bring back the details to PD and not allow civilian flag men to be the "go to" for your money making gig, then I will be the first to sign it.


Oooh...I lie mortally wounded by your rapier-like wit. 

If babysitting judges, sticking seizure notices on homes, and occasionally chasing after people who have federal warrants excites you, then more power to you. I personally would be bored to tears.

As for details, I don't work them. I base my lifestyle on my 40-hour paycheck, and I have a very well-paying college teaching job for my fun money. I do appreciate your thoughts on voting to bring details back, but they never left in the first place.



Mike7913 said:


> Unless you're as gifted as SNIPER and can get on the SRT. I suggest taking the upcoming Trooper exam. (unless you're a trooper now) But keep in mind that you'll only be getting 2 points...so make sure you study.


For about the bazillionth time I've had to say this on this site, I've never taken the state police exam. I'm perfectly content where I am; I work where I grew up, make a great salary, and I love the hit-and-run atmosphere of answering 911 calls.

Can you say the same?


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## Mike7913

Being content is all that matters anyways. I just realized that your profile says you're 43, so you probably have some time on with your dept and since you have that teaching job on the side, that's excellent. 
I can take some ball-busting, so the stab at my job doesn't really bother me and I hope you take it the same way I do. A couple of my very good friends are MSP and we go back and forth all the time. Being serious though, we all have a specific job in LE and I personally respect everyones duties. 
Obviously, this issue escalated because no one here agrees with my view, which is to give points instead of total preference to Vets on the CS exam. I understand it is the way it is...I just wanted to see if anyone else viewed it from the other perspective.
Also, I hope that the details aren't taken away. You guys would know more about that than I would.


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## Guest

At the risk of sounding like a retard (what's new? lol), I believe that the banding changed this somewhat... Don't the Vets/Residents only get bumped to the top of the band that they score in? That would require them to be in the ballpark of non-vets scores right? probably wrong.


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## OfficerObie59

I believe the banding only changed the grouping of raw scores, not rank position on the list, in order to give more towns "flexability" in the hiring process. Vet prefernce is unaffected, as is the other absolute preferences: Civil Service List Preferences


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## Guest

OfficerObie59 said:


> I believe the banding only changed the grouping of raw scores, not rank position on the list, in order to give more towns "flexability" in the hiring process. Vet prefernce is unaffected, as is the other absolute preferences: Civil Service List Preferences


That is my point Obie. If a town calls for the list of 10's for a hiring... I assume they are just getting 10's. Then any '10' who is a resident/vet/etc... gets to the top of that 10 list? I can't imagine that if they someone is banded in the 7 group that they would be considered with the 10's because they are a vet?

My point is that with the old system, a vet with a 70 would be above a non-vet with a 100. I'm not arguing against that, merely stating that with the banding system, I thought that they would have to 'make the grade' (so to speak) in order to get bumped to the top of that list?

This is all conjecture on my part, I can't find any info on the subject yet.


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## Anonymous

veterans should be given a preference above normal citizens for civil service positions. plain and simple. i'll give you a great reason why. to enter the military you must complete a form of basic training and ait or job school. they give you a daily regiment you must follow while breaking you down and building you back up again. now for civil service postions, (which are paramilitary in the way they're taught) why wouldnt you want someone who has already gone through this sort of thing atleast once before. fire, police, doc...they all have to attend an academy and be screamed at by a DI every now n then and go through a regimented process. military experience will always outweigh a college education no matter which way you decide to slice it. if you dont like the way Mass does things, hop on the pike and kindly leave. while your at it i'd appreciate it if you brought deval patrick with you. and if you wont kindly leave then drive yourself down to south station, take the escalator down to the subway, walk over to the red line train tracks and hop on the third rail. i've had to miss 2 civil service exams because of activations and deployments and now that my 4 years are just about up this exam in april looks like a legitimate shot for me.


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## 94c

Mike7913 said:


> Ok, I'll try to respond to all of your posts the best that I can. 94C, nice post, exactly what you stated is what the commonwealth is pretty much saying to all of the test takers. I, along with others just happen to disagree with it. The military is not for everyone...nor is college.* I just think that taking the highest test scores gives the most equal opportunity*..


And that is where your argument gets *destroyed*...

After the tests there are *oral board interviews*. I have disqualified Military Vets, just like I have disqualified College Grads.

Tell me the answer you think I want to hear only makes you a puppet. I have taken candidates in circles to the point that I could convince you of *citing yourself* after running a red light (accidently) because you deserved it.

Over all, in the hundreds of interviews I have conducted, it is the military guys that are the most squared away.
(Although I have to admit, there have been some that I would never allow out into the public with a gun)

The college kids are intelligent, but they are so programmed into telling the instructer/interviewer what they want to hear that they become a laughingstock after the interview. (Many just can't think on their own)

Just my opinion....


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## Guest

Merry Christmas to all my fellow MassCop VETERANS. Especially anyone who spent time at some FOB during the holidays. To anyone who has run their mouth uneducatedly in this thread...... PISS OFF.


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## 7costanza

I have had the honor of working with many Veterans and I am humbled by the manner in which they conduct themselves, the knowledge they possess, the sacrifices they have made and continue to make every day. To say that an individual that has Military experience should not get preference is just plain ignorant...the things they do are directly related to LE...chain of command, deadly force, respect, honor, integrity, sacrifice.. to name a few..this heavily outweighs any degree or test score and thats why it works... period!!!!


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## BRION24

Just like a lot of people on this post have said already veterans should get all the preference they can get. They truly deserve it for their service to this country (Thank you). 

I have been hired by a local dept and the MSP without any veterans preference and I had plenty of classmates who were non vets. I believe that the people who bitch about the vets preference are the ones who don't score high enough to get on regardless.


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## rigrig22

From the time I was young I knew I wanted to be a Cop, my Grandfather was a Captain in Somerville and him and my dad both told me that if an Irish boy like me wanted to be a cop then I had better sign up for the military.


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## GodblessThearmy

Thanks to all those who support vets. Happy Holidays to all my brothers and sisters in blue and service members currently deployed.


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## Mitpo62

I'm a vet too. With layoffs possible next year due to a cut in local aid, I've heard that some "vets" have been successful in getting their "status" updated to "disabled vet", which in turn prevents a layoff. I can only assume that this term "disabled" must be for something very, very, weak. Otherwise, how could they perform in their current job? I've been out for over 20 years so I don't know much about this disabled stuff. Your thoughts....???


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## rigrig22

http://vabenefits.vba.va.gov/vonapp/main.asp is the web site you are looking for. If you have any permanent injuries from your service you deserve it. Start the claim process NOW because it's a long process. You submit your claim and they send you to some Doctors then they will let you know if they consider you disabled from your service and they assign you a percentage. If you are serious contact a DAV rep. to help you through the process they will fight for what you deserve. A long the lines of the job plenty of guys are considered Disabled by the VA standards and are Police Officers.


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## BRION24

Mitpo62 said:


> I'm a vet too. With layoffs possible next year due to a cut in local aid, I've heard that some "vets" have been successful in getting their "status" updated to "disabled vet", which in turn prevents a layoff. I can only assume that this term "disabled" must be for something very, very, weak. Otherwise, how could they perform in their current job? I've been out for over 20 years so I don't know much about this disabled stuff. Your thoughts....???


I used to work with a guy who was considered a disabled vet because he had a small scar on his face because he was hit in the face with an open Humvee door.


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## Johnny Law

I worked with a guy who was 100% (or close to it) disabled. He got fucked up in Vietnam and shot a few times. He worked mids his whole career, never wore a vest because if Vietnam didn't kill him nothing would, and he could do the job with no problem at all.


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## BRION24

Now thats a disabled vet!!


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## HELPMe

I am grateful to all the vets that served. Thank you for your service.

Just for the sake of argument, I used to work with a kid that was in the NG and got deployed. He never saw combat. I work with a kid now, who did two tours in Iraq as an infantryman. He saw combat and doesnt have a single sticker or vet pref plate on his car and doesnt tell boot camp stories. Yet he gets the same vet pref as the kid who didn't leave base. It just doesn't seem right to me. 
I think that there should be some points or pref that is given to veterans that saw combat. The kid that went out on patrol to engage the enemy vs the kid that although had an important role, didn't leave base. I am not knocking non combat MOS's or anything like that. I am just saying that I do agree military service should be rewarded. However, I would like to see another preference given to those that risked more than others. I have heard that some southern states give preference depending on MOS or awards earned. Someone who has the Silver Star did a lot more then someone with just the Defense Medal. Like I said I am not knocking non combat MOS's or downplaying those that got deployed. I would just like to see some additional preference given to those that saw combat. Thats all.
Also, for another argument, although I fully agree with vets getting preference, I would also like to see some points given to those that have experience. Not the 1 billionth of a point per year. I mean a legitimate chance. Someone who is already on the job in a part time capacity for a municipality or full time campus cop, will know more then someone just out of college or someone just looking for a change in careers.


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## Killjoy

> Just for the sake of argument, I used to work with a kid that was in the NG and got deployed. He never saw combat. I work with a kid now, who did two tours in Iraq as an infantryman. He saw combat and doesnt have a single sticker or vet pref plate on his car and doesnt tell boot camp stories. Yet he gets the same vet pref as the kid who didn't leave base. It just doesn't seem right to me.


In this day and age its not very easy to make a distinction between those who "deserve" veterans preference and those who do not. Do only infantrymen deserve veterans preference because they live in the dirt? Do you know that MP is considered an non-combat job, because in traditional military operation they aren't on the front lines, but nowadays they get shot about more than anyone because there _are no front lines_. How about that seabee engineer building barracks in the sandbox....when a muslim insurgent drops a few grenades on him are you going to tell him he doesn't deserve veterans status because he's in a non-combat profession? How about the brave medical personnel treating these soldiers? How about sailor sitting offshore launching planes...well he _obviously_ doesn't deserve veterans status because he's not getting shot at, nevermind the fact that he works in one the most dangerous environments on the planet.

When one volunteers to put themselves between home and those who would do harm to us, I think that is sacrifice enough. No one in the military gets to choose what world events or needs of the military get to propel them into an actual war zone. To me anyways, the potential for sacrifice, whether its a sniper's bullet or being horribly mangled by an airplane engine is reason enough to honor these men and women.


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## Guest

HELPMe said:


> Just for the sake of argument, I used to work with a kid that was in the NG and got deployed. He never saw combat. I work with a kid now, who did two tours in Iraq as an infantryman. He saw combat and doesnt have a single sticker or vet pref plate on his car and doesnt tell boot camp stories. Yet he gets the same vet pref as the kid who didn't leave base. It just doesn't seem right to me.


As Killjoy mentioned, there really aren't "front lines" anymore. When I was in the Gulf in 1990-91, a Pennsylvania National Guard Quartermaster unit had 27 soldiers killed when a SCUD missile destroyed their air-conditioned barracks well behind the "front lines" of the war;

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9D0CE3DF113CF935A15751C0A967958260

Should the 98 soldiers who were wounded get less of a veteran's preference?

And BTW...I do have a veteran's plate, only because the additional $40 fee goes to the Chelsea Soldier's Home.


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## 7costanza

To a non Vet like myself its not about who saw combat and who didnt its more about the fact that you signed the dotted line and that you were willing to put your life on the line for this Country. Does an LEO that has never been a shootout with a bad guy deserve less credit than one that has....NO, they both are willing to make the ultimate sacrifice for others ...thats what counts.


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## Kem25

Becoming a disabled vet takes three or four (maybe more depending on how screwed up you are) visits to a VA Hospital. You fill out boat loads of paperwork and you wait for a long time. Eventually you get your claim and they let you know your percentage. I did not file until I had been out of the military (and on the job) for a year and a half. None of the conditions I receive disability through the VA were disqualifying when I got on so I was all set. The key is to have medical records (bring them and let them make copies) to show that you sustained that injury/illness/condition while you were on active duty.


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