# 100 questions was just too hard.....



## billj (Aug 28, 2004)

*Judge says firefighter tests biased and unfair*

*Suit against Lynn may have wide effect*

By Shelley Murphy, Globe Staff | August 9, 2006

A federal judge ruled yesterday that the state discriminated against blacks and Hispanics seeking firefighter jobs by relying on 2002 and 2004 civil service exams that were unfair to members of minority groups.
US District Judge Patti B. Saris found that the state has continued to rank applicants based on how well they score on written exams that test cognitive ability, even though such tests were found discriminatory in the early 1970s and led to decades of court-ordered affirmative action policies in Lynn, Boston, and other cities throughout the state.
The state has had 30 years to ``fine-tune a better approach" but has failed to create a more equitable exam, despite being ordered to do so as part of a 1974 federal consent decree, Saris wrote.

``These cognitive examinations do not predict how quickly a firefighter can climb stairs with equipment or raise a ladder," Saris wrote in a 68-page decision in favor of four black firefighter applicants who sued the state and the city of Lynn, alleging the exam was discriminatory.
The judge has given the lawyers for the four men -- Jacob and Noah Bradley, who are brothers, Keith Ridley, and Jared Thomas -- 30 days to propose a remedy. The state and Lynn then have 30 days to respond.
``We expect it will have an impact on Boston and communities throughout Massachusetts, because the court found the test has a discriminatory impact and was not properly validated, and that applies everywhere," said lawyer Shannon Liss-Riordan, who represents the four men.
The class-action suit was brought on behalf of all minority firefighters who took the 2002 and 2004 firefighter exams and were trying to get hired in Boston, Lynn, and other cities and towns.
Liss-Riordan said she and her cocounsel, Harold Lichten, will probably ask the court to require municipalities to hire some of those minority applicants ``who did not have an equal opportunity to compete for those positions based on a discriminatory exam."
Nadine Cohen of the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, which intervened in the lawsuit on behalf of the NAACP and the Boston Society of the Vulcans, said, ``It is our hope that changing the examination process will result in a more diverse workforce in the fire departments in Boston and throughout the Commonwealth." The society, which supports firefighters of color, intervened in the lawsuit.

Jacob Bradley, 26, is an occupational therapist whose score of 94 on both the 2002 and 2004 exams was not high enough to get hired as a Lynn firefighter. ``I'm happy to see that the court ruled in our favor and agrees there needs to be a change in the hiring practices in the state of Massachusetts," he said.
Terence Burke, a spokesman for Attorney General Thomas F. Reilly's office, which defended the state against the suit, said officials are reviewing the decision and would not comment at this time.
The state administered a new civil service exam in June, which included additional components, but not a strength test. The results have yet to be released.
Mayor Edward ``Chip" Clancy of Lynn said yesterday that his city has followed state Civil Service guidelines for hiring applicants and will continue to do so if the exam is changed. ``If someone determines that a test should be given in another fashion or manner, so be it," he said.
Karen Miller, president of the Boston Society of Vulcans, said she hopes the judge's ruling will lead to more minority firefighters in Boston. ``We're not looking for any advantages or extra points; we just want it to be fair," said Miller, who became the Boston Fire Department's first black female firefighter in 1985 after scoring 98 on the civil service exam.
Miller said the current exam only tests how well an applicant takes an exam, adding that she would like to see the state add a strength test and oral interviews.
In March 2003, a federal appeals court ruled that the Boston Fire Department had achieved racial balance among its firefighters and was no longer required to follow the 1974 consent decree, which required the hiring of one minority firefighter for every white one. Lynn was released from the consent decree in 1986.
Only seven of the 105 firefighters hired in Boston as a result of the 2004 exam were minorities, according to the judge's ruling. Only four of the 106 hired by Lynn since 1986 were minorities.


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## O-302 (Jan 1, 2006)

So they want to add a strength test component to the Firefighters exam, while they are attempting to reduce the physical requirements on the Police side???? Doesn't this discriminate against female firefighter candidates?


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## union1 (Sep 18, 2002)

*Another blow to Civil Circus*

http://www.boston.com/news/local/massachusetts/articles/2006/08/09/judge_says_firefighter_tests_biased_and_unfair/

*Judge says firefighter tests biased and unfair*

*Suit against Lynn may have wide effect*

By Shelley Murphy, Globe Staff | August 9, 2006
A federal judge ruled yesterday that the state discriminated against blacks and Hispanics seeking firefighter jobs by relying on 2002 and 2004 civil service exams that were unfair to members of minority groups.


US District Judge Patti B. Saris found that the state has continued to rank applicants based on how well they score on written exams that test cognitive ability, even though such tests were found discriminatory in the early 1970s and led to decades of court-ordered affirmative action policies in Lynn, Boston, and other cities throughout the state.
The state has had 30 years to ``fine-tune a better approach" but has failed to create a more equitable exam, despite being ordered to do so as part of a 1974 federal consent decree, Saris wrote.
``These cognitive examinations do not predict how quickly a firefighter can climb stairs with equipment or raise a ladder," Saris wrote in a 68-page decision in favor of four black firefighter applicants who sued the state and the city of Lynn, alleging the exam was discriminatory.
The judge has given the lawyers for the four men -- Jacob and Noah Bradley, who are brothers, Keith Ridley, and Jared Thomas -- 30 days to propose a remedy. The state and Lynn then have 30 days to respond.
``We expect it will have an impact on Boston and communities throughout Massachusetts, because the court found the test has a discriminatory impact and was not properly validated, and that applies everywhere," said lawyer Shannon Liss-Riordan, who represents the four men.
The class-action suit was brought on behalf of all minority firefighters who took the 2002 and 2004 firefighter exams and were trying to get hired in Boston, Lynn, and other cities and towns.
Liss-Riordan said she and her cocounsel, Harold Lichten, will probably ask the court to require municipalities to hire some of those minority applicants ``who did not have an equal opportunity to compete for those positions based on a discriminatory exam."
Nadine Cohen of the Lawyers Committee for Civil Rights Under Law, which intervened in the lawsuit on behalf of the NAACP and the Boston Society of the Vulcans, said, ``It is our hope that changing the examination process will result in a more diverse workforce in the fire departments in Boston and throughout the Commonwealth." The society, which supports firefighters of color, intervened in the lawsuit.
Jacob Bradley, 26, is an occupational therapist whose score of 94 on both the 2002 and 2004 exams was not high enough to get hired as a Lynn firefighter. ``I'm happy to see that the court ruled in our favor and agrees there needs to be a change in the hiring practices in the state of Massachusetts," he said.
Terence Burke, a spokesman for Attorney General Thomas F. Reilly's office, which defended the state against the suit, said officials are reviewing the decision and would not comment at this time.
The state administered a new civil service exam in June, which included additional components, but not a strength test. The results have yet to be released.
Mayor Edward ``Chip" Clancy of Lynn said yesterday that his city has followed state Civil Service guidelines for hiring applicants and will continue to do so if the exam is changed. ``If someone determines that a test should be given in another fashion or manner, so be it," he said.
Karen Miller, president of the Boston Society of Vulcans, said she hopes the judge's ruling will lead to more minority firefighters in Boston. ``We're not looking for any advantages or extra points; we just want it to be fair," said Miller, who became the Boston Fire Department's first black female firefighter in 1985 after scoring 98 on the civil service exam.
Miller said the current exam only tests how well an applicant takes an exam, adding that she would like to see the state add a strength test and oral interviews.
In March 2003, a federal appeals court ruled that the Boston Fire Department had achieved racial balance among its firefighters and was no longer required to follow the 1974 consent decree, which required the hiring of one minority firefighter for every white one. Lynn was released from the consent decree in 1986.
Only seven of the 105 firefighters hired in Boston as a result of the 2004 exam were minorities, according to the judge's ruling. Only four of the 106 hired by Lynn since 1986 were minorities.
Jonathan Saltzman of the Globe staff contributed to this report. Shelley Murphy can be reached at [email protected].


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## 2-Delta (Aug 13, 2003)

*Re: Another blow to Civil Circus*

BS. How can a test be discriminatory?! How!


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## billj (Aug 28, 2004)

Here's the case.......

http://pacer.mad.uscourts.gov/dc/cgi-bin/recentops.pl?filename=saris/pdf/bradley%20memo%20and%20order.pdf

Guarantee this will affect police as well


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## SOT (Jul 30, 2004)

*Re: Another blow to Civil Circus*

It can require to read and write in English and to have some level of education.


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## tazoez (Dec 9, 2005)

*Re: Another blow to Civil Circus*

And we wouldn't want to have people scream discrimination now would we. Of course I had always assumed that reading would be a benefit of a job -- seeing how most things are labeled (alley, deck, takedown, etc... on a lightbar controller). But what do I know with a college degree....


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## kwflatbed (Dec 29, 2004)

*Re: Another blow to Civil Circus*

This is just 46 years later, the crap started then with them changing the police test from the blue book to general knowledgein 1959, then lowering the passing standards so minorities could pass.
It is a bunch of crap that will never change,it just gets worse.


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## BrickCop (Dec 23, 2004)

*Re: Another blow to Civil Circus*

An exam an inanimate object; I fail to see how using a #2 pencil to answer basic knowledge questions is biased.


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## DVET1979 (Aug 4, 2004)

I recently graduated in the BFD class of May 2006 and 45 out of 50 recruits who graduated were white. However, 49 out of 50 graduates were veterans. The reason why this judge is si stupid is because there is a strength portion of the test, its called the P.A.T. or physical abilities test for those who arent aware. This test is administered by civil service and requires candidates to pass for employment.


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## Mitpo62 (Jan 13, 2004)

Oh bother.....here we go again! :wacko:


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

I feel that this does a great disserice to all minority police / firefighters who EARNED their jobs. I know that whenever I see a minority officer I can't help but think is he/she the best or are they simply the best minority that was available for the job.

Quotas, affirmative action hurt minorities is the long run. It is society saying, you are not as good as a non-minority, so we will have to stoop and lower the standards just for you. 

The test does not know if you are black , white, etc...

There is a small part of me that will always harbour resentment towards minorities because I too was struggling to get on the job in the early 80's when most of this started. I did get a job, but also got passed over for a few along the way because I was not a minority. I had done all the "right" things (i.e. college, EMT training, etc..). I was even a "good" kid so as not to get a police record and have my chance at a job ruined. Yes, eventually that all paided off, but not without being passed over.

We will never have true equality with quotas


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## Irish Wampanoag (Apr 6, 2003)

Its not the test that make you stupid it your lack of brains that make you stupid! Sue your parents for being jack asses and not teaching you the basics


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

According to the judge:

Blacks can't beat whites on the same exam. Therefore we have to lower the standards to allow blacks a chance.

We have to come up with a seperate list for blacks.

Therefore white people are smarter than black people.


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

94c said:


> According to the judge:
> 
> Blacks can't beat whites on the same exam. Therefore we have to lower the standards to allow blacks a chance.
> 
> ...


Of course there is always hack jobs with the Sheriff for those who can't get on a real police dept


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## motivated (May 2, 2005)

hey, dont forget about those other wannabees like massport and campus pd


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## AFCOP (Jan 30, 2005)

Maybe they should have a seperate test for minorities that is easier than a test for non-minorities, and then double the exam fee for non-minorities so that minorites can take it for free... How about starting with removing the race question all together from the exam questionaire and hire based on merit not race...???


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## DVET1979 (Aug 4, 2004)

I agree with AFCOP. There should not be a race or sex question when taking the written portion of the exam. That way it will make it harder for the racist, sexist, and jut downright bigoted heterosexual Christian white male pigs in charge to figure out who's who. Like I have said before, here is my formula that the judge can take under advisement. FORCED DIVERSITY=MEDIOCRITY


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## KindaConfused (Mar 17, 2005)

DVET1979 said:


> I recently graduated in the BFD class of May 2006 and 45 out of 50 recruits who graduated were white. However, 49 out of 50 graduates were veterans. The reason why this judge is si stupid is because there is a strength portion of the test, its called the P.A.T. or physical abilities test for those who arent aware. This test is administered by civil service and requires candidates to pass for employment.


 But you'll never get to the PAT if you first don't score high enough on the written exam to get a conditional offer from a department. So maybe for firefighters they should start scoring teh PAT and adding it into the written exam and then ranking people from there


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## AFCOP (Jan 30, 2005)

why not do like NH and have the PAT the same day as the exam?


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

KindaConfused said:


> But you'll never get to the PAT if you first don't score high enough on the written exam to get a conditional offer from a department. So maybe for firefighters they should start scoring teh PAT and adding it into the written exam and then ranking people from there


I agree, that way you could weed out the slackers right away. Pass/fail on the PAT, if you pass, then onto the written


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## Irish Wampanoag (Apr 6, 2003)

Well allowing minorities get on because of consent degree such departments as Boston PD does not really make that department seeking to hire the most qualified. So when said department (using Boston PD as an example) toot their horn about their standards and qualifications and they comment on the lesser so call qualified applicants who work in other police department who they say can not do the job they can, they should see their own hiring practises in the last 30 years. They have hired the biggest dumb asses and least qualified canidates in the last 3 decades. Thank good most Boston Police Officers have earned their jobs although many have not.


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## AFCOP (Jan 30, 2005)

Irish Wampanoag said:


> Well allowing minorities get on because of consent degree such departments as Boston PD does not really make that department seeking to hire the most qualified. So when said department (using Boston PD as an example) toot their horn about their standards and qualifications and they comment on the lesser so call qualified applicants who work in other police department who they say can not do the job they can, they should see their own hiring practises in the last 30 years. They have hired the biggest dumb asses and least qualified canidates in the last 3 decades. Thank good most Boston Police Officers have earned their jobs although many have not.


Has BPD ever officially come out and discredited another agency or it's officers?


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## Sgt Jack (Aug 17, 2003)

motivated said:


> hey, dont forget about those other wannabees like massport and campus pd


Yeah..... well some of us so called wannabe campus officers work at real pd's too..waiting for a full time spot to open up...


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## DVET1979 (Aug 4, 2004)

firefighter39 said:


> I agree, that way you could weed out the slackers right away. Pass/fail on the PAT, if you pass, then onto the written


AND YOU THINK IT TAKES LONG TO GET HIRED NOW? A pecking order has to be established somehow and the quickest way (I say that reluctantly) for them to establish that order is through the written exam. Does it really matter which exam is administered first? If you pass the written and dont pass the PAT after two tries, you are eliminated anyway. The Fire PAT was challenging but anyone in at least average shape can pass and from what I hear the Police PAT, although much different from its Fire counterpart, is also able to be successfully completed by people in average shape.


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## csauce777 (Jan 10, 2005)

As much as it sounds bad...This is just another way for minorities to get something for nothing. 
"We dont like that we arent scoring well on tests, so lets change the test." I bet if you changed the test the reults would be the same. These guys are banking on this ruling hooking up every minority that took a test with a job as a result. This isnt about equality, its about easy street. Is the NAACP all over this too? Anyone ever wonder what would happen if someone started an organization titled "NAAWP"?? It would be labeled racist and there would be widespread riots and lawsuits...


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## DVET1979 (Aug 4, 2004)

csauce777 said:


> Anyone ever wonder what would happen if someone started an organization titled "NAAWP"?? It would be labeled racist and there would be widespread riots and lawsuits...


I actually believe such an organizaton exists and they are labeled a "racist hate group" and have had lawsuits filed against them


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## chief801 (Dec 8, 2004)

Here we go again...the civil service test measures absolutely nothing and is not an accurate predictor of future job performance. It is a shame that a divide has been created over this minority issue. Civil service is out dated. Make a valid test that accurately measures job aptitude and forget about the affirmative action crap. But please, stop the "I'm more qualified" ranting. That test is not measuring how qualified you are! It was designed to stop corrupt hiring practices, not to find the most qualified candidates.


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## kwflatbed (Dec 29, 2004)

Go back to the old pre early 60s testing using the blue book for police
and the red book for fire.

It was to bad that you realy had to study to get on the job.

Test on the qualifications pertaining to the job, not the color of
your skin or where your family came from.

The civil rights and minority movement in the early 1960s ruined
the testing for the best person for the job.


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## DVET1979 (Aug 4, 2004)

kwflatbed said:


> It was to bad that you realy had to study to get on the job.
> 
> Test on the qualifications pertaining to the job, not the color of
> your skin or where your family came from.


I agree that each test should focus more on the job whether it be Police or Fire. However both the police and fire tests' should require a basic problem solving, grammar, and memory section. Both fields require report writing. You do not want to be on a witness stand with either a defense lawyer or a prosecutor destroying your report based on simple grammar mistakes or not being able to grasp basic concepts or remember what a suspect looks like. The test in its current form does serve a purpose. I do hear that the 2006 Fire test was much different. Does anyone have any information on that? I can imagine that the Police test will be similar come next year.


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## soxrock75 (Jul 26, 2004)

DVET1979 said:


> AND YOU THINK IT TAKES LONG TO GET HIRED NOW? A pecking order has to be established somehow and the quickest way (I say that reluctantly) for them to establish that order is through the written exam. Does it really matter which exam is administered first? If you pass the written and dont pass the PAT after two tries, you are eliminated anyway. The Fire PAT was challenging but anyone in at least average shape can pass and from what I hear the Police PAT, although much different from its Fire counterpart, is also able to be successfully completed by people in average shape.


Hey DVET.......what exactly did you score on the Fire test again? :sh: It must have been a good score to put you at #1 on the list and land you a full time municipal fire job!


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## DVET1979 (Aug 4, 2004)

Actually I was #2 on the list with VET status which I EARNED and wasn't born with. I really dont want to debate the vet issue in this thread seeing it was about the test itself being unfair. Like I said, a pecking order has to be established somehow. Apparently some people like the "judge" who said the test was biased thinks that problem solving, memory, and English grammar are not relevant.


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## soxrock75 (Jul 26, 2004)

DVET1979 said:


> Actually I was #2 on the list with VET status which I EARNED and wasn't born with. I really dont want to debate the vet issue in this thread seeing it was about the test itself being unfair. Like I said, a pecking order has to be established somehow. Apparently some people like the "judge" who said the test was biased thinks that problem solving, memory, and English grammar are not relevant.


I wasn't debating the vet issue at all. I know what you have done for this country and the sacrifices that you have made. You deserve to be where you are right now. I am proud to consider you one of my friends.

I was however debating your, ahem, aptitude for the test.


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## kwflatbed (Dec 29, 2004)

When I took the test in the 1960s all of it was included,we have gone backward ever since.



DVET1979 said:


> I agree that each test should focus more on the job whether it be Police or Fire. However both the police and fire tests' should require a basic problem solving, grammar, and memory section. Both fields require report writing. You do not want to be on a witness stand with either a defense lawyer or a prosecutor destroying your report based on simple grammar mistakes or not being able to grasp basic concepts or remember what a suspect looks like. The test in its current form does serve a purpose. I do hear that the 2006 Fire test was much different. Does anyone have any information on that? I can imagine that the Police test will be similar come next year.


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## Guest (Aug 13, 2006)

firefighter39 said:


> Of course there is always hack jobs with the Sheriff for those who can't get on a real police dept


Infact the only test is how big a number you can write on a check. Just ask anyone who works for Essex County. The guy takes in over 100,000 a year from employees and their families.


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## csauce777 (Jan 10, 2005)

> When I took the test in the 1960s all of it was included,we have gone backward ever since.


Did they have firefighters and cops back then...I thought they used bucket brigades...and night watchman?  j/k...it sounded funny in my head...


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## 2-Delta (Aug 13, 2003)

I be edubacated!


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## 2-Delta (Aug 13, 2003)

I just saw a page from the new civil service exam for minorities...


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## CHROMECOLT357 (Mar 3, 2006)

I have a solution to the problem! The test needs to be written in ebonics so them rich white boys won't have any advantages. Or option 2 is that you have to take the test written in the language that you will need in the City you are applying for. For example, If you are putting Brockton you will need to take a test written entirely in Spanish. If you are looking to work in Fall River or New Bedford, you will need to take a test written in Portuguese because english will be of no use to you. This seems to be the only way to make a fair test. Even though the test is written at the high school level (YOU NEED A DIPLOMA OR GED TO GET HIRED ANYWAY!!!)


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## BrickCop (Dec 23, 2004)

Edit


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## thelastsamurai (Jun 10, 2005)

2-Delta said:


> I just saw a page from the new civil service exam for minorities...


LOL!

i heard that the new civil test for memorization was a coloring page, where
they supply the crayons to color in the accident scene.

And connect the dots section is used to figure out the skecth of the criminal.


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