# Getting back on the job or just moving on



## hawks68sully

Hey guys,

So I'm new here and I'm looking for some advice. For the last 3 years I had been working as a part-timer for both towns and a college. I started as a seasonal guy in one of the beach towns, left after that summer. Went to a college for a little bit, left after I got hired by my home town. Worked for my home town for a little over a year before they sent me to the full-time academy.

So another recruit and I were sent to one of the most recent full-time academies and were the first to go to this specific academy (all the other recruits were sent to Plymouth for as long as anyone can remember). So I ended up with a non-disciplinary separation (too many modified's in PT) the week before graduation and was subsequently terminated from my home town. I had given up my part time position and it had since been filled from the civil service list. My former chief likes to hire guys part time to see if they'll work out before giving them a shot at a full time spot.

I have since been applying everywhere thats listing, towns, colleges, hospitals, etc. applying to dispatch, police, and other security positions. When I was part time I was certified in taser, COBWEB, and a bunch of other stuff that is usually reserved for full time guys. My question being is should I still keep trying to get on somewhere or just move on?

I had taken the civil service test this year while in the academy to be safe and was one of the many who had never scored below a 95 and somehow failed this one. I originally received a 3.something and then several hours later I received another email from civil service saying I had gotten a 40. I've also tried several non-civil service towns and had tried Foxboro's reserve test and had received equally shitty results ranging from 70-85.

Before becoming a police officer, I was an EMT for almost 6 years. Some of my friends who I went through the part time academy with have gotten on places as firefighters and are part timers in another municipality now with licenses to print money between the OT and details, and are telling me to go back and get my medic because with that I can pretty much walk on to any fire department I want. Only thing being the $10-15K and upwards of 2 years it would take to obtain my medic and then go to the fire academy.

Before you ask, yes I tried to fight the separation, no I was not successful. For everyone's benefit, a non-disciplinary separation from a Massachusetts full-time police academy is non-appealable. So I could have punched another recruit or staff instructor in the face and that's appealable, but not being able to pass runs, when the whole last month of the academy your PT instructors decide that since you've been struggling with the runs the whole academy, they make everyone run 3-5 times a week and every run is a timed run is not appealable. Also, since these questions are constantly asked in my interviews: I only walked on one run the first week and did not finish 1 run after hyper-extending my knee, other than that I finished every run, just not in the allotted time. And no, I didn't do anything else disciplinary wise, I had one issue with a PT instructor who told me I had no integrity for missing several reps of burpees over the course of an entire work out. Beyond that I was #2 academically and was one of the two top shots ( the academy split the platoon into two groups for firearms and EVOC and I was top shot in my group). 

So yeah if anyone has any advice on what sort of direction to turn, please I'm all ears.

Thanks in advance.


----------



## MiamiVice

hawks68sully said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I'm new here and I'm looking for some advice. For the last 3 years I had been working as a part-timer for both towns and a college. I started as a seasonal guy in one of the beach towns, left after that summer. Went to a college for a little bit, left after I got hired by my home town. Worked for my home town for a little over a year before they sent me to the full-time academy.
> 
> So another recruit and I were sent to one of the most recent full-time academies and were the first to go to this specific academy (all the other recruits were sent to Plymouth for as long as anyone can remember). So I ended up with a non-disciplinary separation (too many modified's in PT) the week before graduation and was subsequently terminated from my home town. I had given up my part time position and it had since been filled from the civil service list. My former chief likes to hire guys part time to see if they'll work out before giving them a shot at a full time spot.
> 
> I have since been applying everywhere thats listing, towns, colleges, hospitals, etc. applying to dispatch, police, and other security positions. When I was part time I was certified in taser, COBWEB, and a bunch of other stuff that is usually reserved for full time guys. My question being is should I still keep trying to get on somewhere or just move on?
> 
> I had taken the civil service test this year while in the academy to be safe and was one of the many who had never scored below a 95 and somehow failed this one. I originally received a 3.something and then several hours later I received another email from civil service saying I had gotten a 40. I've also tried several non-civil service towns and had tried Foxboro's reserve test and had received equally shitty results ranging from 70-85.
> 
> Before becoming a police officer, I was an EMT for almost 6 years. Some of my friends who I went through the part time academy with have gotten on places as firefighters and are part timers in another municipality now with licenses to print money between the OT and details, and are telling me to go back and get my medic because with that I can pretty much walk on to any fire department I want. Only thing being the $10-15K and upwards of 2 years it would take to obtain my medic and then go to the fire academy.
> 
> Before you ask, yes I tried to fight the separation, no I was not successful. For everyone's benefit, a non-disciplinary separation from a Massachusetts full-time police academy is non-appealable. So I could have punched another recruit or staff instructor in the face and that's appealable, but not being able to pass runs, when the whole last month of the academy your PT instructors decide that since you've been struggling with the runs the whole academy, they make everyone run 3-5 times a week and every run is a timed run is not appealable. Also, since these questions are constantly asked in my interviews: I only walked on one run the first week and did not finish 1 run after hyper-extending my knee, other than that I finished every run, just not in the allotted time. And no, I didn't do anything else disciplinary wise, I had one issue with a PT instructor who told me I had no integrity for missing several reps of burpees over the course of an entire work out. Beyond that I was #2 academically and was one of the two top shots ( the academy split the platoon into two groups for firearms and EVOC and I was top shot in my group).
> 
> So yeah if anyone has any advice on what sort of direction to turn, please I'm all ears.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Medic school, and you'll be on a FD in weeks not months

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk


----------



## j809

Give up police work, I hate to say this but obviously you were not prepared mentally or physically for the full time academy. I ran everyday for over a year before I started the academy because I know they wanted people to run 6 miles by week 2. Don’t really want a quitter backing me and giving up. I know it’s harsh but sometimes that’s the only way to speak millennially. 

You should become a medic, as
Most FDs now hire paramedics and let them do the fat academy during evenings and have same certification as full timers. So you won’t have to have PT and can wash fire trucks and eat all night. Good luck 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## 9319

Somebody with your experice and certs may want to take the next Court Officer exam. Many COs and part timers in towns, hospitals and colleges.


----------



## patrol22

Javert said:


> Somebody with your experice and certs may want to take the next Court Officer exam. Many COs and part timers in towns, hospitals and colleges.


I think if I had to do things over I would've done this. Have the full time nice paying M-F job with nights and weekends off but do the P/T thing to get my fix of police work. Oh well too late now


----------



## j809

patrol22 said:


> I think if I had to do things over I would've done this. Have the full time nice paying M-F job with nights and weekends off but do the P/T thing to get my fix of police work. Oh well too late now


This is exactly why we need to eliminate reserves from patrol work. We want to be considered professionals and be paid like professionals, yet we let undertrained people play cop and represent us. Hopefully something will happen soon at the state level, eliminating reserves from patrol work. They should be used for details, station greeter, prisoner watch etc but not in a patrol capacity.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## mpd61

j809 said:


> This is exactly why we need to eliminate reserves from patrol work. We want to be considered professionals and be paid like professionals, yet we let undertrained people play cop and represent us. Hopefully something will happen soon at the state level, eliminating reserves from patrol work. They should be used for details, station greeter, prisoner watch etc but not in a patrol capacity.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Ouch, 
Have you been washing Chief Hicks balls ?? LOL!!!


----------



## patrol22

j809 said:


> This is exactly why we need to eliminate reserves from patrol work. We want to be considered professionals and be paid like professionals, yet we let undertrained people play cop and represent us. Hopefully something will happen soon at the state level, eliminating reserves from patrol work. They should be used for details, station greeter, prisoner watch etc but not in a patrol capacity.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't think would work for a good chunk of the state that relies on PT guys IMHO. I've come across plenty of reserves that could've fooled me into believing that they were full timers due to their professionalism and knowledge. Also one of the small benefits I've realized about part-time guys is they do the job because they enjoy it and they don't usually turn into the salty pricks that some of us do after so many years on the job. Maybe you've come across a few bad PT guys but that seems to be the exception rather than the rule.


----------



## j809

The key to eliminating them is regionalizing small police departments into a larger agency. Like I said, I don’t have a problem with them with a limited duty, such as ones stated above, but they should not be on patrol. They should not be alone in a cruiser as primary response officers. It puts the town and department at extreme liability. Most departments now are eliminating them or limiting what functions they perform. 


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## TacEntry

hawks68sully said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I'm new here and I'm looking for some advice. For the last 3 years I had been working as a part-timer for both towns and a college. I started as a seasonal guy in one of the beach towns, left after that summer. Went to a college for a little bit, left after I got hired by my home town. Worked for my home town for a little over a year before they sent me to the full-time academy.
> 
> So another recruit and I were sent to one of the most recent full-time academies and were the first to go to this specific academy (all the other recruits were sent to Plymouth for as long as anyone can remember). So I ended up with a non-disciplinary separation (too many modified's in PT) the week before graduation and was subsequently terminated from my home town. I had given up my part time position and it had since been filled from the civil service list. My former chief likes to hire guys part time to see if they'll work out before giving them a shot at a full time spot.
> 
> I have since been applying everywhere thats listing, towns, colleges, hospitals, etc. applying to dispatch, police, and other security positions. When I was part time I was certified in taser, COBWEB, and a bunch of other stuff that is usually reserved for full time guys. My question being is should I still keep trying to get on somewhere or just move on?
> 
> I had taken the civil service test this year while in the academy to be safe and was one of the many who had never scored below a 95 and somehow failed this one. I originally received a 3.something and then several hours later I received another email from civil service saying I had gotten a 40. I've also tried several non-civil service towns and had tried Foxboro's reserve test and had received equally shitty results ranging from 70-85.
> 
> Before becoming a police officer, I was an EMT for almost 6 years. Some of my friends who I went through the part time academy with have gotten on places as firefighters and are part timers in another municipality now with licenses to print money between the OT and details, and are telling me to go back and get my medic because with that I can pretty much walk on to any fire department I want. Only thing being the $10-15K and upwards of 2 years it would take to obtain my medic and then go to the fire academy.
> 
> Before you ask, yes I tried to fight the separation, no I was not successful. For everyone's benefit, a non-disciplinary separation from a Massachusetts full-time police academy is non-appealable. So I could have punched another recruit or staff instructor in the face and that's appealable, but not being able to pass runs, when the whole last month of the academy your PT instructors decide that since you've been struggling with the runs the whole academy, they make everyone run 3-5 times a week and every run is a timed run is not appealable. Also, since these questions are constantly asked in my interviews: I only walked on one run the first week and did not finish 1 run after hyper-extending my knee, other than that I finished every run, just not in the allotted time. And no, I didn't do anything else disciplinary wise, I had one issue with a PT instructor who told me I had no integrity for missing several reps of burpees over the course of an entire work out. Beyond that I was #2 academically and was one of the two top shots ( the academy split the platoon into two groups for firearms and EVOC and I was top shot in my group).
> 
> So yeah if anyone has any advice on what sort of direction to turn, please I'm all ears.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


The FT Academy is a means to an end. You just need to graduate. Your heart wasn't into it. That tells you something and I bet you know this. It would be a long road back to another FT Academy in this god forsaken Commonwealth.

I'd move on.


----------



## mpd61

j809 said:


> The key to eliminating them is regionalizing small police departments into a larger agency. Like I said, I don't have a problem with them with a limited duty, such as ones stated above, but they should not be on patrol. They should not be alone in a cruiser as primary response officers. It puts the town and department at extreme liability. Most departments now are eliminating them or limiting what functions they perform.
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


You are one of the smartest and sexiest cops I know. Do me a favor, buy your white shirts now for when you're Chief, and allow me the honor of being the first "Reserve Special Limited Liability Traffic Constable" that you hire......I will serve you faithfully


----------



## j809

Lol


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## pahapoika

That's a tough hit , but yeah if you weren't PT-ing your balls off before the academy the cop thing might not be in the cards for you. 

Don't know what they're telling potential recruits now. Back in the day it was lace up your sneakers and start running. I was lucky . Had Castle Island to run around every night. Closest I ever got was the jail but the running still helped with the DOC Academy.

Tough to give up the dream my friend , but sounds like the medic things the way to go. Get on the Fire , you still group 4, pension , bennies, etg
in the end that's what it's all about.

Good luck


----------



## Rogergoodwin

hawks68sully said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I'm new here and I'm looking for some advice. For the last 3 years I had been working as a part-timer for both towns and a college. I started as a seasonal guy in one of the beach towns, left after that summer. Went to a college for a little bit, left after I got hired by my home town. Worked for my home town for a little over a year before they sent me to the full-time academy.
> 
> So another recruit and I were sent to one of the most recent full-time academies and were the first to go to this specific academy (all the other recruits were sent to Plymouth for as long as anyone can remember). So I ended up with a non-disciplinary separation (too many modified's in PT) the week before graduation and was subsequently terminated from my home town. I had given up my part time position and it had since been filled from the civil service list. My former chief likes to hire guys part time to see if they'll work out before giving them a shot at a full time spot.
> 
> I have since been applying everywhere thats listing, towns, colleges, hospitals, etc. applying to dispatch, police, and other security positions. When I was part time I was certified in taser, COBWEB, and a bunch of other stuff that is usually reserved for full time guys. My question being is should I still keep trying to get on somewhere or just move on?
> 
> I had taken the civil service test this year while in the academy to be safe and was one of the many who had never scored below a 95 and somehow failed this one. I originally received a 3.something and then several hours later I received another email from civil service saying I had gotten a 40. I've also tried several non-civil service towns and had tried Foxboro's reserve test and had received equally shitty results ranging from 70-85.
> 
> Before becoming a police officer, I was an EMT for almost 6 years. Some of my friends who I went through the part time academy with have gotten on places as firefighters and are part timers in another municipality now with licenses to print money between the OT and details, and are telling me to go back and get my medic because with that I can pretty much walk on to any fire department I want. Only thing being the $10-15K and upwards of 2 years it would take to obtain my medic and then go to the fire academy.
> 
> Before you ask, yes I tried to fight the separation, no I was not successful. For everyone's benefit, a non-disciplinary separation from a Massachusetts full-time police academy is non-appealable. So I could have punched another recruit or staff instructor in the face and that's appealable, but not being able to pass runs, when the whole last month of the academy your PT instructors decide that since you've been struggling with the runs the whole academy, they make everyone run 3-5 times a week and every run is a timed run is not appealable. Also, since these questions are constantly asked in my interviews: I only walked on one run the first week and did not finish 1 run after hyper-extending my knee, other than that I finished every run, just not in the allotted time. And no, I didn't do anything else disciplinary wise, I had one issue with a PT instructor who told me I had no integrity for missing several reps of burpees over the course of an entire work out. Beyond that I was #2 academically and was one of the two top shots ( the academy split the platoon into two groups for firearms and EVOC and I was top shot in my group).
> 
> So yeah if anyone has any advice on what sort of direction to turn, please I'm all ears.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


90% of the guys busting your balls for being too fat to back them up, couldn't run half a mile right now without turning beat red and having a little dribble of shit come out. Then again, becoming out of shape is only supposed to start after the academy.

Your clearly not motivated enough. You weren't motivated to prepare for the academy, and even now you came on here hoping people would motivate to keep trying.
You won't find that here.
You will find cynicism and fat jokes.
Good luck with fire.

And I know the test was a little harder this year, but come on. How do you fail that thing?


----------



## bigfoot1120

If you get on a fire department you will be much happier in the long run. It’s the best part time job around  

I know a guy that switched over and he does not regret it.


----------



## 9319

j809 said:


> This is exactly why we need to eliminate reserves from patrol work. We want to be considered professionals and be paid like professionals, yet we let undertrained people play cop and represent us. Hopefully something will happen soon at the state level, eliminating reserves from patrol work. They should be used for details, station greeter, prisoner watch etc but not in a patrol capacity.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


I don't know if I agree with you. A graduate from a full time academy has X amount more hours in several subjects. Am I missing something? A genuine fuck up (PT or FT) will make an ass of himself regardless.

I know Court Officers past Worcester who do a few patrols/details a month. Why won't they make the switch to a full time basis? Because they make 81K + benifits working M-F days, no nights, weekends or holidays. In return the town gets a great, capable part timer good for about 20+ years. I don't think PT patrol officers are what's hurting LE these days, especially when it's the norm in so many parts of the country.


----------



## patrol22

Javert said:


> I know Court Officers past Worcester who do a few patrols/details a month. Why won't they make the switch to a full time basis? Because they make 81K + benifits working M-F days, no nights, weekends or holidays. In return the town gets a great, capable part timer good for about 20+ years. I don't think PT patrol officers are what's hurting LE these days, especially when it's the norm in so many parts of the country.


That sounds like a swell life. If they were armed I would've made the jump but the lack of equipment those guys get stuck with is a major turn off.


----------



## Kilvinsky

*hawks68sully, *you do what is in your heart. Why quit because someone feels you should. You do what works for you and only what works for you. Being a Firefighter these days has plenty of stress, but no one hates you, is quick to accuse you of shit, wants to kill you, etc. That sounds almost like heaven. 

I was fat when I started the academy and fat when I graduated. It was a FULL TIME academy but I got through it for two reasons, I wanted it and the guys running the academy didn't want ANYONE to fail. I worked my ass off and have never regretted it. Not all instructors are truly more concerned about the recruits and their success than how strict they can be, but that's life. Not all 'chiefs' give a rats ass about their people either.

Explore all options that interest you and explore them fully and do what YOU want, not what I say, or anyone else says. Even if one doesn't work out, you never know where an opportunity may crop up.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

patrol22 said:


> That sounds like a swell life. If they were armed I would've made the jump but the lack of equipment those guys get stuck with is a major turn off.


I can't tell if your serious. You're that nervous about not having a gun you would pass up a job because of it?


----------



## patrol22

Eh I guess I’m half serious. I may take their next test but the lack of any equipment is kind of disheartening. I would never think about stepping out the door in uniform without my gun on so it’s a little weird to think about. Last I checked there was not some special force field around the court houses that kept bad things from happening there.


----------



## JD02124

hawks68sully said:


> Hey guys,
> 
> So I'm new here and I'm looking for some advice. For the last 3 years I had been working as a part-timer for both towns and a college. I started as a seasonal guy in one of the beach towns, left after that summer. Went to a college for a little bit, left after I got hired by my home town. Worked for my home town for a little over a year before they sent me to the full-time academy.
> 
> So another recruit and I were sent to one of the most recent full-time academies and were the first to go to this specific academy (all the other recruits were sent to Plymouth for as long as anyone can remember). So I ended up with a non-disciplinary separation (too many modified's in PT) the week before graduation and was subsequently terminated from my home town. I had given up my part time position and it had since been filled from the civil service list. My former chief likes to hire guys part time to see if they'll work out before giving them a shot at a full time spot.
> 
> I have since been applying everywhere thats listing, towns, colleges, hospitals, etc. applying to dispatch, police, and other security positions. When I was part time I was certified in taser, COBWEB, and a bunch of other stuff that is usually reserved for full time guys. My question being is should I still keep trying to get on somewhere or just move on?
> 
> I had taken the civil service test this year while in the academy to be safe and was one of the many who had never scored below a 95 and somehow failed this one. I originally received a 3.something and then several hours later I received another email from civil service saying I had gotten a 40. I've also tried several non-civil service towns and had tried Foxboro's reserve test and had received equally shitty results ranging from 70-85.
> 
> Before becoming a police officer, I was an EMT for almost 6 years. Some of my friends who I went through the part time academy with have gotten on places as firefighters and are part timers in another municipality now with licenses to print money between the OT and details, and are telling me to go back and get my medic because with that I can pretty much walk on to any fire department I want. Only thing being the $10-15K and upwards of 2 years it would take to obtain my medic and then go to the fire academy.
> 
> Before you ask, yes I tried to fight the separation, no I was not successful. For everyone's benefit, a non-disciplinary separation from a Massachusetts full-time police academy is non-appealable. So I could have punched another recruit or staff instructor in the face and that's appealable, but not being able to pass runs, when the whole last month of the academy your PT instructors decide that since you've been struggling with the runs the whole academy, they make everyone run 3-5 times a week and every run is a timed run is not appealable. Also, since these questions are constantly asked in my interviews: I only walked on one run the first week and did not finish 1 run after hyper-extending my knee, other than that I finished every run, just not in the allotted time. And no, I didn't do anything else disciplinary wise, I had one issue with a PT instructor who told me I had no integrity for missing several reps of burpees over the course of an entire work out. Beyond that I was #2 academically and was one of the two top shots ( the academy split the platoon into two groups for firearms and EVOC and I was top shot in my group).
> 
> So yeah if anyone has any advice on what sort of direction to turn, please I'm all ears.
> 
> Thanks in advance.


Sounds like BPD academy. My advice would be to keep at it. I was in BPD's academy dropped out 2 months in. Thought I was just out of shape or something turned out I had blood clots in my lungs. Still working in a law enforcement capacity for Boston and I'd jump at another shot at getting on even if that jump was into a pile of glass. Get the point?


----------



## 9319

patrol22 said:


> That sounds like a swell life. If they were armed I would've made the jump but the lack of equipment those guys get stuck with is a major turn off.


It can be. I hear your concern about gear and believe me...few COs would disagree with you. The internal Court Officer leadership has been fighting for it however the big brass in Boston just don't get it. Courthouse shootings happen about twice a year in this country, I don't know why it's not really in the news thou. In MA we have had 2 bombings (both 6 hours apart in the late 70s) and one double homicide that included a Boston PD Sergeant (in 1910.) I guess the span of time somehow makes these incidents less real. Only another such event with a body count will wake up the right people.

We will be armed thou within the next several years, 100% guaranteed. Not sure who and when and with what and under what conditions but the days of Boston security guards having more training then those entrusted to physically defend our judiciary are coming to an end.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

Javert said:


> It can be. I hear your concern about gear and believe me...few COs would disagree with you. The internal Court Officer leadership has been fighting for it however the big brass in Boston just don't get it. Courthouse shootings happen about twice a year in this country, I don't know why it's not really in the news thou. In MA we have had 2 bombings (both 6 hours apart in the late 70s) and one double homicide that included a Boston PD Sergeant (in 1910.) I guess the span of time somehow makes these incidents less real. Only another such event with a body count will wake up the right people.
> 
> We will be armed thou within the next several years, 100% guaranteed. Not sure who and when and with what and under what conditions but the days of Boston security guards having more training then those entrusted to physically defend our judiciary are coming to an end.


Are you talking about the CO's in court being armed, or just CO's around the perimeter/entrance? Because I agree that having some firearms makes sense, but CO's being armed next to a guy that just found out he's going away for life is a recipe for disaster.


----------



## JD02124

Rogergoodwin said:


> Are you talking about the CO's in court being armed, or just CO's around the perimeter/entrance? Because I agree that having some firearms makes sense, but CO's being armed next to a guy that just found out he's going away for life is a recipe for disaster.


It's done like that just about everywhere else.&#8230;


----------



## Rogergoodwin

JD02124 said:


> It's done like that just about everywhere else.&#8230;


I know the DOC does outside trips where the unarmed CO is 'hands on' and the armed CO keeps a safe distance. While county's are both armed, which ends up resulting in more 'gun grabs'. I'd rather be in a wrestling match than a shootout.


----------



## bigfoot1120

Rogergoodwin said:


> I know the DOC does outside trips where the unarmed CO is 'hands on' and the armed CO keeps a safe distance. While county's are both armed, which ends up resulting in more 'gun grabs'. I'd rather be in a wrestling match than a shootout.


Except when the bad guy gets the gun and then you have two good guys without a gun and one bad guy with one. If it weren't for both Deputies being armed at mass eye and ear who knows how many people would have been killed that day.


----------



## JD02124

Rogergoodwin said:


> I know the DOC does outside trips where the unarmed CO is 'hands on' and the armed CO keeps a safe distance. While county's are both armed, which ends up resulting in more 'gun grabs'. I'd rather be in a wrestling match than a shootout.


Your gun can get grabbed anywhere. I'd rather have it and not need it than need it not have it. Personal experience and all.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

bigfoot1120 said:


> Except when the bad guy gets the gun and then you have two good guys without a gun and one bad guy with one. If it weren't for both Deputies being armed at mass eye and ear who knows how many people would have been killed that day.


You could also make the argument that the inmate never would have got close to the armed officer, which would have prevented the deputy from being shot. Both legitimate arguments that have their own potential flaws. 
But if that same 'mass eye and ear' scenario played out in court, no gun being involved would be the ideal scenario.

I think that logic is exactly why the Court Officers will never be armed. Judges have seen defendants act up and the last thing they want is to introduce a firearm into the fight.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

JD02124 said:


> Your gun can get grabbed anywhere. I'd rather have it and not need it than need it not have it. Personal experience and all.


Having it out on patrol is one thing, but sometimes being armed is more of a liability than not. Exactly why CO's in jails can't walk a block with a gun. I'm guessing judges view court rooms in MA the same way. In the sense that they are high security facility's with enough preventative measures in place, which is a compliment to the current CO's. Armed or not, bad things probably will happen and the other side is going to say "i told you so"


----------



## JD02124

Rogergoodwin said:


> Having it out on patrol is one thing, but sometimes being armed is more of a liability than not. Exactly why CO's in jails can't walk a block with a gun. I'm guessing judges view court rooms in MA the same way. In the sense that they are high security facility's with enough preventative measures in place, which is a compliment to the current CO's. Armed or not, bad things probably will happen and the other side is going to say "i told you so"


New York State Court Officers seem to be doing just fine. Last death due to gunfire was in the 80's.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

JD02124 said:


> New York State Court Officers seem to be doing just fine. Last death due to gunfire was in the 80's.


To be fair, you can't cherry pick example. That's just anecdotal evidence. Although, It would be interesting to see the statistics of all the unarmed courts vs armed courts for comparison.


----------



## JD02124

Rogergoodwin said:


> To be fair, you can't cherry pick example. That's just anecdotal evidence. Although, It would be interesting to see the statistics of all the unarmed courts vs armed courts for comparison.


I don't see comparing state to state cherry picking but ok.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

JD02124 said:


> I don't see comparing state to state cherry picking but ok.


Well you chose 1 state as an example. That's the definition of cherry picking.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

JD02124 said:


> I don't see comparing state to state cherry picking but ok.


Three killed in Russia court after defendants grab officers' guns | Article [AMP] | Reuters

It would be like me pointing to this one example as definitive proof that CO's shouldn't be armed.


----------



## 9319

Many if not most courts are secured by county level LE. Most of them carry everywhere but the holding area. The norm is actually to have a jail attached or close enough that prisoners are not held in the actual courthouse, they come in do their thing and leave. That is one reason why you see so many guns in a courtroom/around a bad guy in other parts of the country. I can’t say which method is better because they each do things a certain way for a certain reason. I just watched a video from eFLETC about a Court security unit (county sheriff) who had a lock box full of shotguns at the front doors. While many staffers complained about them over the years...they came in handy the one day a man armed to the teeth try coming in shooting (who had so much armor on that the pistol rounds from the Deputies were useless.)

As far as us carrying and how...it depends which rumor you want to believe. Armed at the doors only....one specially trained person armed to patrol exterior and common areas....only supervisors carrying. Take your pick. All I know for sure is it will happen.

BTW: Fast fact...less the 4% of court shootings since 2004 have been the result of court security (court officer, deputy what ever) being disarmed in the US. Can’t speak for Russia, sorry.


----------



## felony

If you want to be a Fire Fighter, then you essentially need your medic to get on. Many towns now make it a requirement for new hires. Its a considerable investment and is 2 years of your life but if you want to get on a FD that has a 911 truck then you really have no choice. Unless, you reside in a town that has a private EMS provider but those towns are few. Look into the Sheriffs Offices, look into the trial courts. Hit the gym hard and look out of state. Look at campus PD's if you're waiverable. Good luck.


----------



## felony

Javert said:


> Many if not most courts are secured by county level LE. Most of them carry everywhere but the holding area. The norm is actually to have a jail attached or close enough that prisoners are not held in the actual courthouse, they come in do their thing and leave. That is one reason why you see so many guns in a courtroom/around a bad guy in other parts of the country. I can't say which method is better because they each do things a certain way for a certain reason. I just watched a video from eFLETC about a Court security unit (county sheriff) who had a lock box full of shotguns at the front doors. While many staffers complained about them over the years...they came in handy the one day a man armed to the teeth try coming in shooting (who had so much armor on that the pistol rounds from the Deputies were useless.)
> 
> As far as us carrying and how...it depends which rumor you want to believe. Armed at the doors only....one specially trained person armed to patrol exterior and common areas....only supervisors carrying. Take your pick. All I know for sure is it will happen.
> 
> BTW: Fast fact...less the 4% of court shootings since 2004 have been the result of court security (court officer, deputy what ever) being disarmed in the US. Can't speak for Russia, sorry.


Court Houses in New Hampshire are secured via armed bailiffs and deputies. Court Houses in Rhode Island are secured via the Capitol Police (armed) at the metal detector and Sheriffs in the court rooms. I am not sure of CT or VT, ME.

With all these ghetto pricks families starting fights in the court room, I am surprised some CO's haven't gotten laid out.


----------



## JD02124

Rogergoodwin said:


> Three killed in Russia court after defendants grab officers' guns | Article [AMP] | Reuters
> 
> It would be like me pointing to this one example as definitive proof that CO's shouldn't be armed.






 This is Russia to soooo.


----------



## 9319

felony said:


> Court Houses in New Hampshire are secured via armed bailiffs and deputies. Court Houses in Rhode Island are secured via the Capitol Police (armed) at the metal detector and Sheriffs in the court rooms. I am not sure of CT or VT, ME.
> 
> With all these ghetto pricks families starting fights in the court room, I am surprised some CO's haven't gotten laid out.


In the court room, the cells, the lobby, probation office...we've had guys out on medical for years and a few beat into early retirement. But....giving us a baton, spray or anything else to help protect ourself (forget about the public) is just to intimidating.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

JD02124 said:


> This is Russia to soooo.


Ok then...


----------



## Rogergoodwin

Javert said:


> Many if not most courts are secured by county level LE. Most of them carry everywhere but the holding area. The norm is actually to have a jail attached or close enough that prisoners are not held in the actual courthouse, they come in do their thing and leave. That is one reason why you see so many guns in a courtroom/around a bad guy in other parts of the country. I can't say which method is better because they each do things a certain way for a certain reason. I just watched a video from eFLETC about a Court security unit (county sheriff) who had a lock box full of shotguns at the front doors. While many staffers complained about them over the years...they came in handy the one day a man armed to the teeth try coming in shooting (who had so much armor on that the pistol rounds from the Deputies were useless.)
> 
> As far as us carrying and how...it depends which rumor you want to believe. Armed at the doors only....one specially trained person armed to patrol exterior and common areas....only supervisors carrying. Take your pick. All I know for sure is it will happen.
> 
> BTW: Fast fact...less the 4% of court shootings since 2004 have been the result of court security (court officer, deputy what ever) being disarmed in the US. Can't speak for Russia, sorry.


I support arming certain posts. A lot of great points and I was never entirely against arming CO's, I just don't personally think CO's being armed while escorting defendants into court adds any more protection, it would be more of a liability. But arming the posts you mentioned seems logical. Hopefully the union sees it the same way.


----------



## Oakum yokum

Every inmate at court house get a shocking dog collar. All hooked to one master switch. Shock one, shock them all.


----------



## patrol22

felony said:


> Court Houses in New Hampshire are secured via armed bailiffs and deputies. Court Houses in Rhode Island are secured via the Capitol Police (armed) at the metal detector and Sheriffs in the court rooms. I am not sure of CT or VT, ME.


Rhode Island is actually a bit strange. The Capitol Police handle the exterior and points of entry but the Sheriffs do everything on the inside. The Sheriffs stay unarmed while inside, as well as any police officers who come into the building. When you come into the Courthouse and check in with the Capitol Police they have lockboxes where you can secure your firearm. Weird system considering if an armed gunman gets by the handful of Capitol officers at the front he's pretty much going to be shooting fish in a barrel.


----------



## CCCSD

RogerGoodwin,

I don’t understand your point. Granted, I’m a CA retired a Deputy, and not a Mass Cop, but you keep harping on Armed COs getting disarmed in court. Dude: do you guys even TRAIN to escort? Do you walk hand in hand with in-custodies? Are they not in restraints? Why would you not carry a firearm in court? Have you read ANY stats on court room shootings/murders, escapes? I would suggest you educate yourself and your team...quickly.


----------



## Joel98

j809 said:


> The key to eliminating them is regionalizing small police departments into a larger agency. Like I said, I don't have a problem with them with a limited duty, such as ones stated above, but they should not be on patrol. They should not be alone in a cruiser as primary response officers. It puts the town and department at extreme liability. Most departments now are eliminating them or limiting what functions they perform.


Regionalization of departments in MA will never happen and you know that.

85% of the departments in western MA and central MA rely on part-timers to fill patrol shifts, in many cases, the entire department is made up of part-timers with the only full time officer being the Chief. (In some cases even the Chief is part-time). This saves towns money and allows towns to actually have their police department. This will not be changing anytime soon.


----------



## Oakum yokum

Joel98 said:


> 85% of the departments in western MA and central MA rely on part-timers to fill patrol shifts, in many cases, the entire department is made up of part-timers with the only full time officer being the Chief. (In some cases even the Chief is part-time). This saves towns money and allows towns to actually have their police department. This will not be changing anytime soon.


Totally agree. That's how it is at my department. Great department, everyone trained, certified .. we deal with everything & anything that happens.
What is also good is the ability to take specialized training on our own, without having to worry about budget & time off.
This is my only job, between shifts and details , I make a good living, doing something I have enjoy for a long time.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

CCCSD said:


> RogerGoodwin,
> 
> I don't understand your point. Granted, I'm a CA retired a Deputy, and not a Mass Cop, but you keep harping on Armed COs getting disarmed in court. Dude: do you guys even TRAIN to escort? Do you walk hand in hand with in-custodies? Are they not in restraints? Why would you not carry a firearm in court? Have you read ANY stats on court room shootings/murders, escapes? I would suggest you educate yourself and your team...quickly.


Dude, there are many valid reasons for not carrying in court, which is why many courts don't allow it. My reasoning is based on my experience. I started my career in corrections and our training was to never go near an inmate with a firearm, unless absolutely necessary. The logic is that if your escorting cons doing life, many of them are going to view your firearm as their way to freedom. And when your escorting guys day in day out, some will become complacent or simply over powered. Then you've got a bigger problem.
As far as escorting court officers go, their job is not to maintain security of the courthouse at that time, other CO's should bear that responsibility. Their duty is to maintain custody of their defendant.

And it avoids problems like this:
In Mass., officers of court unarmed


----------



## j809

Oakum yokum said:


> Totally agree. That's how it is at my department. Great department, everyone trained, certified .. we deal with everything & anything that happens.
> What is also good is the ability to take specialized training on our own, without having to worry about budget & time off.
> This is my only job, between shifts and details , I make a good living, doing something I have enjoy for a long time.


Hardwick and New Braintree merged. If a town cannot afford a full time police department then they should have the State Police cover that town. The day of playing cop is over. This is a professional career not some yahoos running around with guns. Oakum, if you're a reserve and go without getting paid for your training etc, the town is violating federal FLSA law.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


----------



## Oakum yokum

The state police out here can't respond as fast as you may think. They're spread thin too. 
Just because a town uses pt guys doesn't change the quality of service.
I would rather be well trained and take different training classes, than to NOT take the class because the town can't afford it.


----------



## CCCSD

Dude, there are many valid reasons for not carrying in court, which is why many courts don't allow it. My reasoning is based on my experience. I started my career in corrections and our training was to never go near an inmate with a firearm, unless absolutely necessary. The logic is that if your escorting cons doing life, many of them are going to view your firearm as their way to freedom. And when your escorting guys day in day out, some will become complacent or simply over powered. Then you've got a bigger problem.
As far as escorting court officers go, their job is not to maintain security of the courthouse at that time, other CO's should bear that responsibility. Their duty is to maintain custody of their defendant.

And it avoids problems like this:
In Mass., officers of court unarmed

Then don't bitch when you get killed. That argument you use about not getting near Cons while escorting Armed is just stupid. I did it on and off for 30 years depending on my assignment. It's called TRAINING. Having an unprotected courtroom because of a lack of training or an unreasonable thought process is WHY courtrooms are a killing waiting to happen. Do you read the USMS yearly reports? If not, start getting educated.

YOU and YOU alone are always responsible, it goes with wearing the badge. Foisting safety and security on someone else is complacency at its dumbest. There are NO valid reasons to not being armed in court. None.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

CCCSD said:


> Dude, there are many valid reasons for not carrying in court, which is why many courts don't allow it. My reasoning is based on my experience. I started my career in corrections and our training was to never go near an inmate with a firearm, unless absolutely necessary. The logic is that if your escorting cons doing life, many of them are going to view your firearm as their way to freedom. And when your escorting guys day in day out, some will become complacent or simply over powered. Then you've got a bigger problem.
> As far as escorting court officers go, their job is not to maintain security of the courthouse at that time, other CO's should bear that responsibility. Their duty is to maintain custody of their defendant.
> 
> And it avoids problems like this:
> In Mass., officers of court unarmed
> 
> Then don't bitch when you get killed. That argument you use about not getting near Cons while escorting Armed is just stupid. I did it on and off for 30 years depending on my assignment. It's called TRAINING. Having an unprotected courtroom because of a lack of training or an unreasonable thought process is WHY courtrooms are a killing waiting to happen. Do you read the USMS yearly reports? If not, start getting educated.
> 
> YOU and YOU alone are always responsible, it goes with wearing the badge. Foisting safety and security on someone else is complacency at its dumbest. There are NO valid reasons to not being armed in court. None.


If you aren't aware of the potential dangers of being armed while escorting a con, you are a danger to yourself and everyone around you, and have no business being in LE. 
You can act like a child and call it "stupid", (great argument btw) but many agencies do it that way, specifically for officer safety.


----------



## felony

patrol22 said:


> Rhode Island is actually a bit strange. The Capitol Police handle the exterior and points of entry but the Sheriffs do everything on the inside. The Sheriffs stay unarmed while inside, as well as any police officers who come into the building. When you come into the Courthouse and check in with the Capitol Police they have lockboxes where you can secure your firearm. Weird system considering if an armed gunman gets by the handful of Capitol officers at the front he's pretty much going to be shooting fish in a barrel.


Yeah I agree but still better than MA. I went to Sixth District Court and you would always have to wrestle the key card away from the Capital guy to lock your firearm up. In MA it depends on the court house. When I worked for a college in Worcester they wouldn't let campus officers carry. Only State or Municipal. The court house I use now, leaves the back door propped open, so they can hear the horn for the sally port and lets everyone carry.

I like part timers because they take the shitty shifts and I get my days off. They don't count towards the detail or over time lists. So you still have a chance at getting more $$ without fighting with another full time guy for a slot. On the other hand, it would raise our prevailing wage, if only full time officers were hired in MA. In RI, reserves are no longer covered by the Trust, which is the insurance company that basically insures all of the municipalities in Rhode Island.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

woodyd said:


> Court Officers may not be armed, but there are usually Police Officers in the courthouse. Granted, relying on someone being there is not a good security plan, and I'm sure some of the smaller courthouses have less of a presence, but most likely a person with a firearm at a courthouse would be quickly stopped by local Police attending to business at the court.
> Personally, I think it should be:
> Court Officers at the screening posts, courtrooms, hallways, Judge's lobby, etc
> Sheriff's Correction Officers in the lockup
> Troopers from the yet-to-be-formed Court Assignment Unit on the perimeter, posted near the entrances, and responding to emergencies throughout the court
> Having a Court Assignment Unit within MSP would provide the courts with armed, highly-trained experienced LEOs. I would only support this, however, if there was a provision that any Troopers who are reassigned to the courts are replaced on a 1:1 basis with additional Troopers from new RTTs (no pulling guys off the road to fill a new unit without backfilling their vacancies). This would also increase MSP's staffing levels.
> The detention of prisoners has always been a role of Correction Officers. County COs are highly trained and experienced in corrections. This would also streamline the transfer of custody of inmates between the SO and the court, and if an inmate was hospitalized, a armed Deputies from the transport unit would accompany them to the hospital.


Aren't the Court Officers currently in those locations?


----------



## CCCSD

If you aren't aware of the potential dangers of being armed while escorting a con, you are a danger to yourself and everyone around you, and have no business being in LE. 
You can act like a child and call it "stupid", (great argument btw) but many agencies do it that way, specifically for officer safety.

Kid, I’ve spent 30 YEARS dealing with criminals. I’ve forgotten more than you’ll ever learn. If you think that you dont need to carry, then don’t. You obviously have NO idea what you’re talking about, nor anything about working as a cop, nor about police work. Your complacency IS going to get someone killed. You, I don’t care about. A citizen or other cop, yes. You need to take a good, hard look at what you want to do. Then go put an application in at Burger King, because that is where you can have it your way: oblivious to responsibility.

You don’t need to be wearing a badge. You’re a danger to others because of your lack of situational awareness. You don’t know shit about “Officer Safety”... 

Mods. I’m just a West Coast guy. If I have overstepped, please let me know. I just can’t abide “Officers” who don’t know their ass from a hole in the ground and then claim it’s safer to be stupid.


----------



## Goose

CCCSD said:


> Mods. I'm just a West Coast guy. If I have overstepped, please let me know. I just can't abide "Officers" who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and then claim it's safer to be stupid.


You're fine; if you read his posts in other threads you'll realize that one thinks he knows everything already and isn't afraid to shove his whole leg in his mouth.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

CCCSD said:


> If you aren't aware of the potential dangers of being armed while escorting a con, you are a danger to yourself and everyone around you, and have no business being in LE.
> You can act like a child and call it "stupid", (great argument btw) but many agencies do it that way, specifically for officer safety.
> 
> Kid, I've spent 30 YEARS dealing with criminals. I've forgotten more than you'll ever learn. If you think that you dont need to carry, then don't. You obviously have NO idea what you're talking about, nor anything about working as a cop, nor about police work. Your complacency IS going to get someone killed. You, I don't care about. A citizen or other cop, yes. You need to take a good, hard look at what you want to do. Then go put an application in at Burger King, because that is where you can have it your way: oblivious to responsibility.
> 
> You don't need to be wearing a badge. You're a danger to others because of your lack of situational awareness. You don't know shit about "Officer Safety"...
> 
> Mods. I'm just a West Coast guy. If I have overstepped, please let me know. I just can't abide "Officers" who don't know their ass from a hole in the ground and then claim it's safer to be stupid.


I never said anything about police work. I was just talking about court officers carrying while escorting prisoners in court. There's a lot of debate about whether to arm CO's or not. To dismiss either side as stupid I just personally think isn't the best way to approach an officer safety issue. To each his own.


----------



## Oakum yokum

We all know it's going to take a serious incident involving a active shooter incident for anything to change, or a judge, D.A., getting injured.


----------



## 9319

Rogergoodwin said:


> I never said anything about police work. I was just talking about court officers carrying while escorting prisoners in court. There's a lot of debate about whether to arm CO's or not. To dismiss either side as stupid I just personally think isn't the best way to approach an officer safety issue. To each his own.


Agencies who deside to have guys armed around defendants know the risks. I trust they have their reasons. It will never happen in MA and I feel that's appropriate.

Whoever said to outsource the armed element of court security is a life failure. Why in the world would we ever want to pay someone else to do something that could get us more money? Why in the world would we not want to grow our own ranks? That's honestly the stupidest thing I've ever read on here. Please don't tell me your on the E board.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

Javert said:


> Agencies who deside to have guys armed around defendants know the risks. I trust they have their reasons. It will never happen in MA and I feel that's appropriate.
> 
> Whoever said to outsource the armed element of court security is a life failure. Why in the world would we ever want to pay someone else to do something that could get us more money? Why in the world would we not want to grow our own ranks? That's honestly the stupidest thing I've ever read on here. Please don't tell me your on the E board.


100% agree. Not arming the entrance, sgt, roving posts, etc doesn't make much sense. Cant imagine relying on other depts. Officers being there is a smart way to handle court security.


----------



## Rogergoodwin

Goose said:


> You're fine; if you read his posts in other threads you'll realize that one thinks he knows everything already and isn't afraid to shove his whole leg in his mouth.


----------



## Kilvinsky

j809 said:


> Hardwick and New Braintree merged. If a town cannot afford a full time police department then they should have the State Police cover that town. The day of playing cop is over. This is a professional career not some yahoos running around with guns. Oakum, if you're a reserve and go without getting paid for your training etc, the town is violating federal FLSA law.
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


Totally uncalled for and insulting wording, and God knows there are plenty of FULL TIME Yahoos running around with guns.
And for the record, I have mentioned this before, I once was speaking with a Trooper who stated that his first assignment out of the Academy was 'small town patrol' and he said he learned more about report writing, filing for affidavits and search warrants from a particular small town p/t sgt than he ever learned in the academy. I'm sure this isn't true in all cases, but that statement stuck with me for these past 30 odd years. Full time does NOT guarantee competence and Part time does NOT guarantee incompetence.


----------



## Oakum yokum

Kilvinsky said:


> Totally uncalled for and insulting wording,
> Full time does NOT guarantee competence and Part time does NOT guarantee incompetence.


Thanks........


----------



## JD02124

Kilvinsky said:


> Totally uncalled for and insulting wording, and God knows there are plenty of FULL TIME Yahoos running around with guns.
> And for the record, I have mentioned this before, I once was speaking with a Trooper who stated that his first assignment out of the Academy was 'small town patrol' and he said he learned more about report writing, filing for affidavits and search warrants from a particular small town p/t sgt than he ever learned in the academy. I'm sure this isn't true in all cases, but that statement stuck with me for these past 30 odd years. Full time does NOT guarantee competence and Part time does NOT guarantee incompetence.


Yea that and a full academy doesn't make you the end all be all. I know everything!


----------



## mpd61

j809 said:


> Hardwick and New Braintree merged. If a town cannot afford a full time police department then they should have the State Police cover that town. The day of playing cop is over. This is a professional career not some yahoos running around with guns. Oakum, if you're a reserve and go without getting paid for your training etc, the town is violating federal FLSA law.


Yimmy Stop it! 
The fact that you clawed your way up from Auxiliary/Reserve/Campus and sacrificed a lot, culminating in self-sponsoring through MPOC, Doesn't make your opinion fact. BEFORE you ever stepped into the MPOC, you were a motivated and professional officer who taught this old dog quite a bit. Relax a bit and stop throwing out negative generalizations about where you came from. You know there are tangibly fewer PT bozo's out there than in the 80's, when you and I got going. And theres plenty of Bozo's to go around with MPOC and years of FT under their belts!


----------



## Joel98

Rogergoodwin said:


> If you aren't aware of the potential dangers of being armed while escorting a con, you are a danger to yourself and everyone around you, and have no business being in LE.
> You can act like a child and call it "stupid", (great argument btw) but many agencies do it that way, specifically for officer safety.


Be careful insulting CCCSD, he has more time in Law Enforcement than probably you have been alive, and at bigger and busier departments than you've worked. He knows what he's talking about.


----------



## Edmizer1

Many moons ago I used to occasionally go to court in Cambridge. This is when the now defunct Middlesex County Police Department (<--- See Patch on Left) provided armed security for the first floor and exterior of the courthouse. Kind of like the way troopers provide security at the airport near TSA screening.

I now go to Springfield District Court which is the busiest court in the state. I often see troopers and Springfield PD in the lobby who tell me they are there because of intelligence that there will be rival gangs at the court that day and that they are there because they expect trouble. IMO there should be some sort of permanent armed presence in the lobby of that court with the ability to respond to trouble. I'm sure there are other courts in the state in the same position.


----------

