# Tazed For Not Signing Ticket



## Danman (Nov 21, 2006)

what do you think of this

http://www.break.com/index/dude-tazered-for-not-signing-ticket.html


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## kwflatbed (Dec 29, 2004)

I would think he will pay attention the next time and there will
be a next time.


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2007)

Do these morons think we carry all that crap on our belt for decoration??

Comply with a police officer's commands and you won't get tazed, pepper-sprayed, struck with a baton, or shot. It's not rocket science.


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## lofu (Feb 25, 2006)

This cop was alone on a highway with cars flying buy at 40+ mph. The last thing he wanted to do or should have done is start wrestling on the ground with this idiot. I say good use of the tools he was given. Probably should have offered the wife a tissue though  .


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## Guest (Nov 21, 2007)

guy has ZERO tactical proficiency............

stands in window frame to speak with operator...........
turns his back on guy and walks back to cruiser.........
etc
etc
etc


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## SOT (Jul 30, 2004)

It used to be, you comply or you die...Now it's you comply or you might get tazed.

The trooper or whatever made a poor stop, as any security guard from Mt Ida College will tell you, but the guy needed the taze.


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## pahapoika (Nov 5, 2006)

typical yuppie scum. _ but why , but why............?_

guy deserved a kick in the nuts just for all that stupid whining !


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## Foxy85 (Mar 29, 2006)

I'm curious as to why Massachusetts doesn't require a signature...seems common in other states....I know you can ask a driver to sign to compare signatures and such, but why isn't it mandatory?


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## kttref (Oct 5, 2004)

In CT signatures are not required for infractions. They are required if we release someone on a "Promise To Appear" (PTA).


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## PearlOnyx (Jun 28, 2002)

Out of curiosity, if you guys write someone and they don't have their DL/ID on them, what do you use to show that they received the ticket? Without a positive photo ID, you really can't say that the person who's name on the ticket is the person you gave the ticket to (ID Issues etc.). Thumb print?


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## Guest (Nov 22, 2007)

PearlOnyx said:


> Out of curiosity, if you guys write someone and they don't have their DL/ID on them, what do you use to show that they received the ticket? Without a positive photo ID, you really can't say that the person who's name on the ticket is the person you gave the ticket to (ID Issues etc.). Thumb print?


Most of our cruisers have laptops with a direct link to the RMV database, so we can pull up the digital images from driver's licenses and state ID cards/liquor ID cards.

More than once, someone who "didn't have" their license has re-thought the wisdom of using their friend's information when I tell them I'm going to pull the image.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

Sniper said:


> guy has ZERO tactical proficiency............
> 
> stands in window frame to speak with operator...........
> turns his back on guy and walks back to cruiser.........
> ...


I totally agree. This Tasing would be out of policy here in LA. Out here the suspect has to be agressive/combative. This guy was walking away from the officer and never once made an aggressive move towards him... Guess they have different rules in Utah.

The officer certainly didn't try too much in the way of verbally trying to get the guy to sign the ticket. What happened to "Verbal Judo?" One request to sign and that was it.


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## Tuna (Jun 1, 2006)

Hey Foxy85, one reason tickets aren't signed here is who, in their right mind wants to give a pointed object to a person who is already pissed off. The subject plants that pen in your temple now who's gonna be pissed off. Environmental citation, CH130 / CH 131 by statue must be signed. If the subject refuses it becomes criminal.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

PearlOnyx said:


> Out of curiosity, if you guys write someone and they don't have their DL/ID on them, what do you use to show that they received the ticket? Without a positive photo ID, you really can't say that the person who's name on the ticket is the person you gave the ticket to (ID Issues etc.). Thumb print?


Pearl,
Do you folks there in Florida require a violator to sign? We require a signature out here in California. If after repeated requests by both the officer and a supervisor to sign and the violator still won't, then it's a trip to jail for him.


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## MPDReserve (Jan 14, 2007)

LA Copper said:


> Pearl,
> Do you folks there in Florida require a violator to sign? We require a signature out here in California. If after repeated requests by both the officer and a supervisor to sign and the violator still won't, then it's a trip to jail for him.


I don't understand the reasoning behind signing a ticket when it is issued anyway. Wouldn't it create more of a hassle than it is worth. The ticket should be assumed to be valid once it is turned in, and it seems to me that the signature would only be necessary when paying or appealing. I think the request should be made, but if refused, whatever, it's going on their record anyway, right?


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## SOT (Jul 30, 2004)

I saw a neat thing in Iraq, it's a biometric iris scanner. It would be interesting to see that use for MV citations and illegals coming over the border. Don't want to sign, just do a quick snap with the iris scanner.


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## RodneyFarva (Jan 18, 2007)

Did any one else notice that it looks like the guy is trying to take something out of his pocket&#8230;and whats that bulge on his right side&#8230;and that he is trying to get back to the cab of his car.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

MPDReserve said:


> I don't understand the reasoning behind signing a ticket when it is issued anyway. Wouldn't it create more of a hassle than it is worth. The ticket should be assumed to be valid once it is turned in, and it seems to me that the signature would only be necessary when paying or appealing. I think the request should be made, but if refused, whatever, it's going on their record anyway, right?


I believe it started many years ago after folks just didn't show up to pay the fines. When we give them the ticket, we tell them, "it's not an admission of guilt but merely a promise to appear in court to either pay the fine or contest it."

We write a lot of tickets out here so the city and state want their money!



RodneyFarva said:


> Did any one else notice that it looks like the guy is trying to take something out of his pocket&#8230;and whats that bulge on his right side&#8230;and that he is trying to get back to the cab of his car.


I noticed that also. That's probably going to be his saving grace during the lawsuit.


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## Barbrady (Aug 5, 2004)

LA Copper said:


> I believe it started many years ago after folks just didn't show up to pay the fines. When we give them the ticket, we tell them, "it's not an admission of guilt but merely a promise to appear in court to either pay the fine or contest it."
> 
> We write a lot of tickets out here so the city and state want their money!
> 
> I noticed that also. That's probably going to be his saving grace during the lawsuit.


Its the same spiel in NC though most officers do not bother to ask for signature as it not mandatory. If you do ask and they refuse we note it in the signature block. However, it is mandatory to have your registration card signed. If that is not signed you could hook them up..lol..


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

Barbrady said:


> Its the same spiel in NC though most officers do not bother to ask for signature as it _not_ mandatory. If you do ask and they refuse we note it in the signature block. However, it _is_ mandatory to have your registration card signed. If that is not signed you _could_ hook them up..lol..


It has made for some "spirited" conversations over the years with folks who didn't want to sign. I had the in-car video for a while and got to bring them home and show the family. They were always amazed how much people would argue with the police. They always thought that people fully cooperated with us.... NOT!


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## MPDReserve (Jan 14, 2007)

LA Copper said:


> I believe it started many years ago after folks just didn't show up to pay the fines. When we give them the ticket, we tell them, "it's not an admission of guilt but merely a promise to appear in court to either pay the fine or contest it."


If fines go unpaid though, registrations and licenses cannot be renewed, right? That is the way it is out here. At that point the state can collect more $$ for late fees, penalties, interest, or whatever extra charges they throw on (don't know, never had that problem). It has been a long time since I got a ticket, but isn't guilt assumed if an appeal has not been filed within a given time period?


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## Barbrady (Aug 5, 2004)

LA Copper said:


> It has made for some "spirited" conversations over the years with folks who didn't want to sign.


Lol, I can imagine.


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## kwflatbed (Dec 29, 2004)

MPDReserve said:


> If fines go unpaid though, registrations and licenses cannot be renewed, right? That is the way it is out here. At that point the state can collect more $$ for late fees, penalties, interest, or whatever extra charges they throw on (don't know, never had that problem). It has been a long time since I got a ticket, but isn't guilt assumed if an appeal has not been filed within a given time period?


When have you ever seen them worried about having a lic.or reg. in MA.

Slap on the wrist CWOF and drive the same car out of the court parking lot.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

MPDReserve said:


> If fines go unpaid though, registrations and licenses cannot be renewed, right? That is the way it is out here. At that point the state can collect more $$ for late fees, penalties, interest, or whatever extra charges they throw on (don't know, never had that problem). It has been a long time since I got a ticket, but isn't guilt assumed if an appeal has not been filed within a given time period?


You are correct, their registration won't be renewed. Their license will be suspended and a warrant will be issued for their arrest. In the poorer neighborhoods (like where I currently work), I'd say a vast majority don't have a license or insurance but that doesn't stop them from driving.

If we catch someone driving, having never had a license or their license is suspended, then their cars are automatically impounded for a minimum of 30 days. Now that gets expensive!

Tickets out here are pretty expensive. For example, a red light violation is $351 dollars. How much is it in Mass?


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## OutOfManyOne (Mar 2, 2006)

No problem in what he did. You have to remember that MAYBE under Utah Law, refusing to sign the citation is an arrestable offense. At that point the trooper had enough to arrest him but he refused to comply and started walking away from him, resisting arrest. Alot of PDs use taser before OC for non compliant people.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

OutOfManyOne said:


> No problem in what he did. You have to remember that MAYBE under Utah Law, refusing to sign the citation is an arrestable offense. At that point the trooper had enough to arrest him but he refused to comply and started walking away from him, resisting arrest. Alot of PDs use taser before OC for non compliant people.


And that is why there are many groups out there that hate and sue the police.

Just because it's an arrestable offense (as it is here in California), doesn't mean he can go straight to the Taser. I agree, different states and different departments have obviously different policies. On my department the suspect has to be aggressive/combative, not passive/resistive as this guy was. Although the hand in the pocket may help him out. The officer can argue that he believed the suspect may have been reaching for a weapon.

We've been using Tasers since the early 1980s. I've been using them since I came on the job in 1988 so I have a pretty good working knowledge of their use. I've been involved in their use from both an officer's and a supervisor's perspective. We've been scrutinized many times over the years and we always come out clean because of our policy.


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## OutOfManyOne (Mar 2, 2006)

Yes, different animals, Utah vs. California. Utah is a bit like Mars.


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## PearlOnyx (Jun 28, 2002)

Refusal to sign a traffic ticket in Florida a 2nd Degree Misdemenor. Fail to sign, go to jail, or if you're generous you can Notice to Appear them on the side of the road, but usually it's a ride. You're also required to submit a right thumbprint if you do not have valid photo ID on you. Fail to do so, go to jail. 

Personally, I think the signature is a method of showing that the person that you handed the ticket is the person that they say they are. We have the DAVID system, which is similar to the MA system where you can look up a DL photo, but that doesn't work with out of state and forigen licenses. At least with the signature, you can compare the signature on the ticket to the signature on the DL, but that's not fail proof either. Burden lies upon you to prove that the person you issued the citation to is in fact the person who shows up in court should they contest the citation. If they say it wasn't them (which happens), the signature is a good tool to show it was in fact them.


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## Gil (Jun 15, 1998)

First off, the know it all was not tazed for not signing the ticket, he was tazed because he was resisting arrest (however slight). It's obvious that failure to sign is arrestable in whatever state this was. It appeared that he was walking back to his vehicle in his protest of the citation or the arrest. The officer just put a stop to things quickly.

Say the know it all decided to drive away, then the stakes are raised and it might have turned out a lot worse.

The side of the road is no place to argue or entertain inquiries about the traffic stop. One of the reasons that I am thankful Massachusetts does not require the operator to sign the citation. I think if they did there would be more of this up here.

Here is your citation, the instructions are on the back you have twenty days to pay or appeal. I then walk away.


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## Barbrady (Aug 5, 2004)

Gil said:


> Say the know it all decided to drive away, then the stakes are raised and it might have turned out a lot worse.


Very good point.


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## OutOfManyOne (Mar 2, 2006)

Gil said:


> Here is your citation, the instructions are on the back you have twenty days to pay or appeal. I then walk away.


 Or you can sign the appeal box for them already and tell them to appeal it twice. :mrgreen:


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## DJM1968 (Oct 12, 2007)

The person to argue with would be his _legislator_, not with the overworked slob who has to enforce the rules of the road.

Some good advice from a lawyer I once overheard: always do what the officer tells you; it's in court that you get to argue the fine points of the law.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

Gil said:


> First off, the know it all was not tazed for not signing the ticket, he was tazed because he was resisting arrest (however slight).
> 
> That was my point, it was "slight" but he was Tased anyway... although like I also said, it may have been because he had his hand in his pocket. (We're all just speculating why this particular officer used the Taser in this instance.) Unless there is a strict policy on the use of Tasers, they are going to be constantly criticized, just like they are being in criticized in another thread. If I'm wrong, then why didn't Massachusetts have them all these years? (It's a rehtorical question.)
> 
> ...


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

Signing tickets is very south or left coast stuff. It's a recipe for confrontation every time. In some states all mv violations are criminal with PTAs or cash on the spot. Crazy!

On the big road if you're just writing tickets it's all business, and no time for bullshit. The courts agree that the information you write on the ticket is prima facie evidence that the violator was present, then you check "in hand" on the ticket. Drop it in their lap for all I care.

Like Gil said, mine is "here's a violation for X, instructions are on the envelope." Walk away, go about your business. No debate, waiting around for questions, or talking the their buddy on the cell phone who says he's officer blah blah blah, or attorney dickweed, etc.

The tase was for being non-compliant, not "fear for his life". Just like spray. Use 'em if you got 'em.


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## PearlOnyx (Jun 28, 2002)

Sine,

Things are very different down South. I've got two cases now where I am waiting for a fingerprint technician to come in for a identity hearing for traffic citations. Right or wrong, that's the system down there. If the person alleges they are not the person you issued the ticket to, you tell the judge that they are lying, and 90% of the time, they'll take your word for it. We have some real liberals too! I also unfortunatley work in one of the most liberal counties in the state, where most of the bad case law comes from...

Where does the taser sit on your use of force pyramid? Many agencies down South require active physical resistance before you use a taser.


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## LA Copper (Feb 11, 2005)

Hi Pearl,
Same out west, the supsect has to be aggressive/combative before we can use it. Judging by what some of the folks here are saying, they can use it pretty much anytime they feel like it.. That won't fly for too long when Civil Rights groups find out or when someone sues or when it's caught on tape, etc..

The Utah Highway Patrol officer in this case is now receiving death threats and hate mail because of this video. In the court of public opinion, this particular situation isn't looking too good.


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## SinePari (Aug 15, 2004)

LA Copper said:


> In the court of public opinion, this particular situation isn't looking too good.


It's the same as that lady who got tazed in Florida I believe. PR is not our strong point.


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## SOT (Jul 30, 2004)

I tased a pregnant woman in the neck.


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## PearlOnyx (Jun 28, 2002)

Tazers are a big thing in the news in Florida again, after the incident at UF with the John Kerry speech, it's been in the news almost every week. A few years ago, one of the larger counties went on a tear racking up a large number of taser incidents at public schools, and it was like this. Eventually, it will die down. We are one of the few departments in the state that don't carry them. I'm sort of indifferent. I'd be happy if we got them, but I'm not crawling up anyone's rear begging for them.


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## Barbrady (Aug 5, 2004)

PearlOnyx said:


> A few years ago, one of the larger counties went on a tear racking up a large number of taser incidents at public schools, and it was like this. Eventually, it will die down.


We have 60 or so X26 tasers collecting dust. Select court and detention officers have had them for awhile and some patrol supervisors carry them but the hold up on issuing them to rank and file is the stink that the county school system is putting up. Soft administrators. Those SRO's probably need them the most.


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