# P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the scene



## kwflatbed

*10-8: Life on the Line
- Sponsored by Blauer
*
with Charles Remsberg

P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the scenes in a critical court case

*Part one of a two-part series*

In the law enforcement blogosphere, as well as the mainstream media, the case was controversial from the get-go:

Four off duty, out-of-state LEOs and a firefighter, all members of the police motorcycle club called the Iron Pigs, get into a heated confrontation with some Hells Angels at a roadhouse during the annual bike rally in Sturgis, S.D. One of the cops shoots one of the HAs. A county grand jury indicts the officers and the fireman for CCW in a drinking establishment, a violation of South Dakota law.
The law enforcement community reacts with major mixed emotions. If the charges stick, that would be the first successful challenge of the hard-fought and much-cherished federal legislation that allows off duty and retired peace officers to carry legally in any jurisdiction in the U.S. On the other hand, some asked, why did cops show the "poor judgment" of recreating on the same premises with outlaw bikers at an infamous event like the Sturgis rally?
As the operator of one popular LE listserv put it after a South Dakota court threw out the indictments last November: "A correct decision&#8230;But again, the core issue is not to go to places while armed where trouble is a certainty and there is no compelling reason to do so."
Is it fair to question the common sense of the officers involved?
You be the judge. But first, here are some things about the case you may not know.

*THE SETTING.*

The headlines about cops being in a "brawl" in a "biker bar" were enough to skew the opinions of many civilians and fellow LEOs at the outset-and to distress the involved officers, who felt such terminology unjustly characterized what happened, smeared their reputations, and potentially threatened their careers. 
Despite its suggestive name, the Loud American Roadhouse where the shooting took place is not the stereotypical biker-gang hangout, according to locals. Instead, it's "a mainstream, family-type restaurant-bar, with food, live music, and dancing, famous for its steak tips," says Robert Van Norman, a long-time resident of nearby Rapid City and a partner in the law firm of Nooney, Solay & Van Norman, which defended the accused officers.

Full article: http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/a...y-Behind-the-scenes-in-a-critical-court-case/


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## Guest

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

Here's an idea....don't join an organization that emulates criminals, that dresses like criminals, and hangs-out in places where criminals like to hang-out, and you probably won't have this type of problem.


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## Harley387

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Delta784 said:


> Here's an idea....don't join an organization that emulates criminals, that dresses like criminals, and hangs-out in places where criminals like to hang-out, and you probably won't have this type of problem.


Delta, after reading the full article, it's apparent that the establishment that these Officers were in was not a "biker bar", but more of a mainstream bar/restaraunt. It also appears that one of the Officers involved had previously worked narcotics, and had testified against some of the HA's, who were sent to prison. There is also speculation that this Officer may have been targeted, as the establishment was NOT known as a biker hangout, and contact with the Officers was initiated by a prospect for the HA's. My personal feeling is that whether or not we agree with the Officers membership in a motorcycle club, there is no indication that there was any wrongdoing on the part of the Officers involved. We, as a law enforcement brotherhood should stand by them. This case may also become a litmus test for HR 218.....something that we all need to fight for. I personally don't believe that this attack random at all. OMG's are very well organized, and more sophisticated than your average street thugs. I believe that this attack was violent, premeditated, and probably a part of the initiation of the prospect involved. I also think that the HA's bit off a bit more than they were excpecting.


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## mpd61

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Delta784 said:


> Here's an idea....don't join an organization that emulates criminals, that dresses like criminals, and hangs-out in places where criminals like to hang-out, and you probably won't have this type of problem.


You got it Bruce! Tha's why I won't be caught dead on a Harley either!
I'd rather ride a victory or a triumph than be some middle-aged-***-wanna-be. I practically shit myself everytime I see somebody in Walmart with their Harley T-shirt, wallet, boots, sunglasses and ballcap.

The ONLY people I think that ride Harley's for the _right_ reasons have been riding them since BEFORE 1984, or are under 30 or over 65 
:-k


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## Harley387

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



mpd61 said:


> You got it Bruce! Tha's why I won't be caught dead on a Harley either!
> I'd rather ride a victory or a triumph than be some middle-aged-***-wanna-be. I practically shit myself everytime I see somebody in Walmart with their Harley T-shirt, wallet, boots, sunglasses and ballcap.
> 
> The ONLY people I think that ride Harley's for the _right_ reasons have been riding them since BEFORE 1984, or are under 30 or over 65
> :-k


Wow. That was a pretty broad insult. :fu2:


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## Guest

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Harley387 said:


> Delta, after reading the full article, it's apparent that the establishment that these Officers were in was not a "biker bar", but more of a mainstream bar/restaraunt. It also appears that one of the Officers involved had previously worked narcotics, and had testified against some of the HA's, who were sent to prison. There is also speculation that this Officer may have been targeted, as the establishment was NOT known as a biker hangout, and contact with the Officers was initiated by a prospect for the HA's. My personal feeling is that whether or not we agree with the Officers membership in a motorcycle club, there is no indication that there was any wrongdoing on the part of the Officers involved. We, as a law enforcement brotherhood should stand by them. This case may also become a litmus test for HR 218.....something that we all need to fight for. I personally don't believe that this attack random at all. OMG's are very well organized, and more sophisticated than your average street thugs. I believe that this attack was violent, premeditated, and probably a part of the initiation of the prospect involved. I also think that the HA's bit off a bit more than they were excpecting.


When you wear the colors of a motorcycle club that mimics the outlaw gangs, then go to Sturgis where you know there will be Hells Angels, Outlaws, Bandidos, etc., ESPECIALLY if you've testified against said Hells Angels, then what happened shouldn't come as any surprise.

I'm sure all the outlaw 1%er's get a big hoot out of the loser cops trying to be like them. It would be like General Custer and his men dressing like Indians....it's positively pathetic.


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## pahapoika

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

i rode Jap bikes because it was all i could afford as a young lad . after a rare chance to swing a leg over a Harley i was hooked.

now allot of motor officers that are Blue Knights ride Honda's and that 's all well and good. i think it's like riding a giant sewing machine 

i rode Harleys before the yuppies found out about them and feel it's just a personal choice ( by the way , my 1996 H-D has 120,000 miles and the motor hasn't been apart )

if you ride a bike and attend motorcycle events whether it's bike shows ,rallies, memorials,toy runs , etc you will find outlaw groups.

personally i make it a practice of leaving when i see this element. is it right or fair ? don't know , but from reading that article those cops were in a very bad situation not of their design. obviously the grad jury found their actions in self defense.


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## Harley387

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Delta784 said:


> When you wear the colors of a motorcycle club that mimics the outlaw gangs, then go to Sturgis where you know there will be Hells Angels, Outlaws, Bandidos, etc., ESPECIALLY if you've testified against said Hells Angels, then what happened shouldn't come as any surprise.
> 
> I'm sure all the outlaw 1%er's get a big hoot out of the loser cops trying to be like them. It would be like General Custer and his men dressing like Indians....it's positively pathetic.


I respect your opinion Delta. However, my argument wasn't for the LEO biker clubs. My argument is that these Officers have done nothing wrong, not broken any laws, and should be afforded the same rights that any civilian would have. That is, I don't think that because they were involved in a club atmosphere, they should be considered "guilty" or having "got what they deserved". I also feel that events such as this one serve to illustrate a need for HR 218. I mean, the facts are that Police Officers were recognized, outside of their home jurisdiction. They were then assaulted, while in the presence of family members, by armed criminals, BECAUSE they were Police Officers. Cultural details aside, this is an event that could happen to any one of us.


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## 7costanza

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



> this is an event that could happen to any one of us.


And has...Lynn Ma last summer I believe..a few HAs beat the ever loving shit out of one of Lynns finest at a chinese restaurant because they knew he was a Cop.

Part of the article..

According to police reports, alleged Hell's Angel James Costin sucker-punched Coleman as he sat at the bar eating a sandwich, knocking him to the ground. Costin, a state auditor and nephew of former Lynn mayor Thomas Costin, allegedly punched him again after Coleman stood up, knocked him to the floor, and kicked him several times.


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## Harley387

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



7costanza said:


> And has...Lynn Ma last summer I believe..a few HAs beat the ever loving shit out of one of Lynns finest at a chinese restaurant because they knew he was a Cop.


Exactly my point. Just because you're a cop, this should not limit your right to visit a public establishment.


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## Guest

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Harley387 said:


> Exactly my point. Just because you're a cop, this should not limit your right to visit a public establishment.


There's a huge difference between having a sandwich in a restaurant, versus going to a bar in Sturgis during Bike Week, wearing colors, knowing that HA's are going to be there, after you testified against them.

Were that officer's actions legal? Clearly?

Did he display one ounce of common sense? Not in my opinion.


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## mpd61

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Delta784 said:


> There's a huge difference between having a sandwich in a restaurant, versus going to a bar in Sturgis during Bike Week, wearing colors, knowing that HA's are going to be there, after you testified against them.
> 
> Were that officer's actions legal? Clearly?
> 
> Did he display one ounce of common sense? Not in my opinion.


+1



pahapoika said:


> i rode Jap bikes because it was all i could afford as a young lad . *after a rare chance to swing a leg over a Harley i was hooked.*
> 
> now allot of motor *officers that are Blue Knights ride Honda's* and that 's all well and good. *i think it's like riding a giant sewing machine*
> 
> *i rode Harleys before the yuppies found out about them* and feel it's just a personal choice ( by the way , *my 1996 H-D has 120,000 miles and the motor hasn't been apart *)
> 
> .


Same thing happened to me too... After 1700 hundred miles of actual riding versus straddling one, I came to my senses and let my brother take over payments. (New 1982 FXB Sturgis)

Your 1996 Harley sounds like an Evo-motored, post-94, Yuppie ride to me.
What model is it again?


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## pahapoika

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

sold the shovelhead and used it a down payment on the evo. wish i had kept that bike.

hard to find any shovelheads , even evo are getting scare. see mostly twin cams now.

riding the geezer glide now. the windshield and bags make inter-state travel pretty sweet.

never had any resl trouble with the outlaw types. had some words and it's always been pretty childish stuff.

no expereance with the Iron Pigs. there's a few LEO clubs out there. i prefer the Blue Knights even if the "robins egg" blue vest is kinda gay


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## Guest

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



pahapoika said:


> no expereance with the Iron Pigs.


Keep it that way.

The whacker factor is pretty high with the Blue Knights, but they're harmless, overall.


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## Killjoy

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



> When you wear the colors of a motorcycle club that mimics the outlaw gangs, then go to Sturgis where you know there will be Hells Angels, Outlaws, Bandidos, etc., ESPECIALLY if you've testified against said Hells Angels, then what happened shouldn't come as any surprise.
> 
> I'm sure all the outlaw 1%er's get a big hoot out of the loser cops trying to be like them. It would be like General Custer and his men dressing like Indians....it's positively pathetic.


Never understood that obsession with some officers; trying to emulate the criminals they lock up. It can be anyone from organized crime hoods to west-coast "ganstas" to biker gang scum, some guys just like to dance with the devil. I've found it usually leads to big problems whether personal or professional.

Don't be surprised if you lie with dogs that you get fleas.


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## Guest

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Delta784 said:


> Keep it that way.
> 
> The whacker factor is pretty high with the Blue Knights, but they're harmless, overall.


ESPECIALLY the ones who make traffic stops with their blue LED collection on Rt290 !!!!!!!!!!!


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## pahapoika

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

yes, the "knights" do have some loons...............

they let me in :naughty:

did get an offer from one club , but was told i had to "prospect" and even then would need a majority vote to get in because i wasn't a cop.

the Blue Knights had me fill out a application, couple of references, background check and was good to go !

BK is a International group, well established , good people and no outlaw type initiations.

for any riders out there the Blue Knights NYC "Suicide Run" is blast and everyone should check it out at least once


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## Guest

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



pahapoika said:


> but was told i had to "prospect"


A term straight out of the 1%er handbook. Pathetic.


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## mpd61

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

Pahapoika!

I still like ya! Even though by now you should have graduated to a Moto Guzzi Californian, Triumph Rocket III, or Victory Vision...

But you can still be my wingman ANYTIME!!!!
:rock:


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## BrickCop

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

I wonder if any Hells Angels participate in clubs where they drive crown vics and listen to scanners for entertainment...


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## 94c

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

So what happened to all the photos on their site?

http://www.ironpigs.net/

Somebody must have taken down all the wannabee Hell's Angels photos showing guys that probably should never have been allowed to wear a uniform in the first place.


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## mpd61

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



94c said:


> So what happened to all the photos on their site?
> 
> http://www.ironpigs.net/
> 
> Somebody must have taken down all the wannabee Hell's Angels photos showing guys that probably should never have been allowed to wear a uniform in the first place.


Face it, they're a bunch of **** who probably TiVo "Sons of Anarchy" and run to the bathroom after watching it!
:lol:


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## pahapoika

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

_*Moto Guzzi*_

now there's a name i haven't heard in awhile.

what was that place up in Beverly that use to sell them ? liked the café style . believe they were the last production bikes to make the switch from points to electronic ignition 

wouldn't mind a Ducati 900SS with the half fairing if i was going to go Euro .

was thinking about this today and did get one other offer to join a club. my "sponsor" was late and i spent a few uncomfortable minutes waiting for him to show up at the clubs meeting place when finally one of the guys says , can i help you ?

told him i was waiting for someone. come to find out you had to be a Marine AND a cop ! told him i was neither and politely shown the door 

won't lie to ya . there is a certain appeal about a club and the whole "Band of Brothers" thing. there's some long standing traditions with bikers and think that's why some of it has carried over to LEO clubs.

mixing it up with the outlaw types is not my idea of fun. get into enough trouble on my own , plus i'm not carrying the right shield


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## 7costanza

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



> what was that place up in Beverly that use to sell them


Eastern Cycle on Park St or Freeman Cycle...Federal St, pretty sure they are still there. My uncle bought one from them and says its the best bike he has ever had.


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## pahapoika

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

Freeman's , that's it !

they were good guys. bought a heated vest and some other stuff there.


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## Irish Wampanoag

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

My question is why would anyone join a club , organization, cult, group, membership or posy that mimic a gang or other kinda stereo type criminal appearance group or category whether justfully typed or not..

Harley I agree with you that these guys/officers were not asking for trouble and as far as the HA they are a bunch of pieces of shit. These officers did not deserve this and my prayers go out to them facing this dilemma.
However I have to agree with Delta, Sturgis is a known criminal hang out. I would not be caught dead there especially on bikers week. HR218 was not intended for any officer/s to carry a firearm while in a place serving alcohol. One thing I learned is an alcohol establishment, officers armed and conflict within the scene the cops alway are looked at as the bad guys by the media, the public etc..


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## Harley387

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Irish Wampanoag said:


> HR218 was not intended for any officer/s to carry a firearm while in a place serving alcohol. One thing I learned is an alcohol establishment, officers armed and conflict within the scene the cops alway are looked at as the bad guys by the media, the public etc..


So, are you saying that when I take my family out to dinner, if the restaraunt serves wine with dinner, I shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun there? Or are you only against carrying in a bar? I don't think I know ANY cops who have never carried in a bar. I think we all know cops who like to have a few drinks every now and then. Do you think that they all go unarmed? My thought is that we need to get past the whole "biker" thing, and focus on the fact that we have a group of Officers carrying in a public establishment, who were accosted by criminals. It could happen to anyone. I have a very nice restaraunt down the road from my house where I occasionally take the wife for dinner. I have seen some of my former "customers" there. Not often, but it happens. Should I just stop having a social life?


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## Guest

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Harley387 said:


> So, are you saying that when I take my family out to dinner, if the restaraunt serves wine with dinner, I shouldn't be allowed to carry a gun there? Or are you only against carrying in a bar? I don't think I know ANY cops who have never carried in a bar.


I have in the past (distant past), but not in a long time. If I'm going to consume alcohol, the gun stays home.



Harley387 said:


> I think we all know cops who like to have a few drinks every now and then. Do you think that they all go unarmed? My thought is that we need to get past the whole "biker" thing, and focus on the fact that we have a group of Officers carrying in a public establishment, who were accosted by criminals. It could happen to anyone.


In the Sturgis incident, the officer made several bad decisions that almost guaranteed it would happen. My argument was not that he was carrying in a licensed establishment; it was that he shouldn't have been there at all.



Harley387 said:


> I have a very nice restaraunt down the road from my house where I occasionally take the wife for dinner. I have seen some of my former "customers" there. Not often, but it happens. Should I just stop having a social life?


Not at all....be the designated driver, and let your wife enjoy the wine. If you have to shoot someone off-duty (or on-duty for that matter), God forbid, you better hope you have no alcohol in your system. Otherwise, at the absolute minimum, you're going to offer up, special delivery, some delicious ammunition for the cop bashers in the media, making us all look bad.

The only times I go to a bar socially (unarmed) is when I know the place is full of other cops....strength in numbers. Other than that, I enjoy my beer in the comfort, safety, and privacy of my own home. It sucks to live with a limitation like that, but it's a minor one in the grand scheme of things.


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## mpd61

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

Theres absolutely nothing wrong with an LTC (cop or not) carrying ANYWHERE alcohol is served. We should all know by now it's not illegal, immoral, or even bad judgement.

_As long as you don't drink and act as a responsible citizen_, you're free to exercise your lawful right despite any myths or variables in personal opinions.


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## fra444

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

The law says carrying a LOADED firearm while LOADED! If you are not drunk or if the weapon is not loaded your ok.


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## jettsixx

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



mpd61 said:


> Tha's why I won't be caught dead on a Harley either!


Last time I chekced MSP used Harleys. I own and 87 FXR and I think it is the best bike I have ever owned. I do like the Victorys also but How can you blame a particular brand of motorcyle that is just rediculous. That in my opinion is like saying I wont own a Glock becuase that is what the "gang bangers" use. I also believe that everyone has the right to be in any establishment at anytime. Regardless if the criminal element likes it or not. I'm sorry but I am not going to let someone from the H/A or any other gang run me out of anywhere. That is the problem with this country our citizens keep getting told where they can and cant go by the criminals. Frankly I am shocked by some of the posts I have read hear, I am not saying you are wrong in your thinking I just expect more out of police than to just lie down.


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## Harley387

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



jettsixx said:


> Last time I chekced MSP used Harleys. I own and 87 FXR and I think it is the best bike I have ever owned. I do like the Victorys also but How can you blame a particular brand of motorcyle that is just rediculous. That in my opinion is like saying I wont own a Glock becuase that is what the "gang bangers" use. I also believe that everyone has the right to be in any establishment at anytime. Regardless if the criminal element likes it or not. I'm sorry but I am not going to let someone from the H/A or any other gang run me out of anywhere. That is the problem with this country our citizens keep getting told where they can and cant go by the criminals. Frankly I am shocked by some of the posts I have read hear, I am not saying you are wrong in your thinking I just expect more out of police than to just lie down.


Well said.


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## fra444

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

I agree with both of you but weather we like it or not we are looked at differently. We are forced to stay away from certain places because something "could" happen. No one say to lie down and die just stay away from the places the bums are likely to hang out. Just my opinion.


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## OfficerObie59

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Delta784 said:


> If I'm going to consume alcohol, the gun stays home...
> The only times I go to a bar socially (unarmed) is when I know the place is full of other cops....strength in numbers. Other than that, I enjoy my beer in the comfort, safety, and privacy of my own home. It sucks to live with a limitation like that, but it's a minor one in the grand scheme of things.


Just one of the many limits and sacrifices that comes with the profession.

If I'm going out for a casual dining expierience where I may have a few drinks, like dinner with the wifey, I'm leaving the weapon at home. I'm gonna choose a place with the least liklihood that I'll be bothered--for the sake of both for me AND her.

And before somone here gives me the schpeal about how you can find yourself in a tense and dangerous situation anywhere at anytime, fine, but I stipulate I'm dealing with probabilities here. We all know there are places that cater to trouble and places that don't. Whether I'm carrying or not, as a cop who like his job, I take a shot of common sense and choose the latter.


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## mpd61

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



jettsixx said:


> Last time I chekced MSP used Harleys. I own and 87 FXR and I think it is the best bike I have ever owned. I do like the Victorys also but How can you blame a particular brand of motorcyle that is just rediculous. I am not saying you are wrong in your thinking I just expect more out of police than to just lie down.


Oh Jeezus, I love your logic...The Mighty MSP uses Harleys.

I just have to say that Harley Davidson is more of an attitude for most...
Not a particular way of life like in the past. It's really become more of a marketing concept with clothing, toys, and Holy jeezus, a line of FORD TRUCKS!?!?!

I bought a new FXB Sturgis in 1982 (eagle soars alone etc) after my Honda, and Suzuki's. I REALLY loved MOTORCYCLES and rode em and read everything about them. I hung with real bike afficionadoes who rode Harley, Ducati, British etc. Then I watched Harley Davidson crap on the rest of the motorcycle industry in 1983 when they solicited the Trade Commission and backdoored a tariff to screw the American consumer.

Harley (Vaughn Beals) cried to the government saying "the Big four Japs are flooding the market with over one million units per year and really killing us." So the government initiated a 50% tariff over 5 years on all imported bikes over 750cc. What Harley forgot to tell everybody was that they sold EVERY single one of the 50,000+ units they built every year. Then they shortly began expanding production and soon pushing and splitting stock etc. The rest is history. Harley sold out and went political instead of progressive. Evo-motors, Fuel injection, rubber mounted engines? You can enjoy it. I paid for it.

Then again WTF do I know?
:jestera::crazy:


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## Killjoy

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



> I also believe that everyone has the right to be in any establishment at anytime. Regardless if the criminal element likes it or not. I'm sorry but I am not going to let someone from the H/A or any other gang run me out of anywhere.


Its actually against our rules & regs to be in the place where a crime is being committed without being involved in an active investigation or working to stop it. So if you wanted to hang out in a H/A club while they smoke pot and hand out beers to minors, you risk being court-martialed and possibly terminated.

Not worth it to me just so you can wear some stupid leather vest and hang out with some "tough guys". Not to mention the fact I think all outlaw M/C gangs are scum.


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## jettsixx

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

I do agree with Delta, If I am going out and know I am going to be drinking the gun stays home and the keyes go to her. As far as the probability factor I will also conceed that you are more likely to have problems in certain places than others. I have never had a problem in any of our local bars. I also do not go in advertising that I am an LEO. I am proud of what I do I just dont see a point in walking in yelling HELLO IM AN LEO!!!



mpd61 said:


> Oh Jeezus, I love your logic...The Mighty MSP uses Harleys.


I was just using them as an example, I believe most law enforcement agencies use Harleys. I will agree that most Harley dealerships have more clothing than motorcycles.



Killjoy said:


> Its actually against our rules & regs to be in the place where a crime is being committed without being involved in an active investigation or working to stop it.


So I shouldnt go to Salem on Halloween then, because there may be people there drinking under age or smoking pot?


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## Killjoy

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



> So I shouldnt go to Salem on Halloween then, because there may be people there drinking under age or smoking pot?


Last I checked Salem was a town, not a particular residence or business.

But I avoid Salem on Halloween like the plague anyways because of the high proportion of freaks.


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## Irish Wampanoag

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



mpd61 said:


> Theres absolutely nothing wrong with an LTC (cop or not) carrying ANYWHERE alcohol is served. We should all know by now it's not illegal, immoral, or even bad judgement.
> 
> _As long as you don't drink and act as a responsible citizen_, you're free to exercise your lawful right despite any myths or variables in personal opinions.


Ya!, "As long as you dont drink" thats a good one Woody ole boyint:


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## kwflatbed

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

*P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs and the challenge to the off duty carry law: more about what really happened *

*Part two of a two-part series*

As detailed in Part one, four peace officers from Washington State and a fire fighter from Colorado-all members of the police motorcycle club the Iron Pigs-were involved in a controversial altercation at a roadhouse with members of the Hells Angels during the annual bike rally last August in Sturgis, S.D. One of the IP's, Seattle Det. Ronald Smith, as he was being choked and beaten, shot and seriously wounded one of the HAs. 
The outlaw biker he shot was indicted for aggravated assault. Much to their surprise, considering that they had not initiated the violent conflict, the officers and the fireman were indicted on criminal charges as well. 
We continue with our exclusive behind-the-scenes report.

*THE CHARGES.* To the accused officers and the attorneys they retained in South Dakota, their indictments seemed bafflingly-and alarmingly-bogus. 
Smith had fired his Glock 23 in defense of his life, while being pummeled and strangled to the point of near unconsciousness. Yet he was charged with agg assault, a felony, the same as the biker who had allegedly attacked him without provocation. 
He was also charged with perjury, another felony. In a sworn statement, he said that the Glock was his personal weapon. The prosecutor's office had called his agency in Seattle and been told by email that the gun was department-issued. The two are identical in make and model, and the department was wrong. "Chicken shit at best" in any case, says one of the defense attorneys, Robert Van Norman. But without further checking, the grand jury indicted him for lying.
All five of the Iron Pigs, who'd readily admitted to being armed, were indicted for carrying concealed weapons in an establishment that derives more than half its revenue from alcohol sales. That's against a misdemeanor offense in South Dakota, punishable by a $2,000 fine and up to a year in jail. But according to Van Norman, there was no posting of the restriction at the Loud American Roadhouse, the bar-restaurant where the shooting occurred, and the business has never been tested as to its revenue breakdown.
More important, however, the officers-Smith and Sgt. Dennis McCoy from Seattle P.D. and James Rector and Scott Lazalde from U.S. Customs and Border Protection-believed they were immune to CCW charges because of the federal Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act of 2004 (commonly known as HR 218), which, with few exceptions, allows off duty and retired peace officers to carry concealed in any jurisdiction in the U.S. 
In the interest of public protection, LEOSA was intended to supersede state, county, and municipal regulations, according to Ted Deeds, chief operating officer of the Law Enforcement Alliance of America, which initiated and lobbied for the legislation for more than a decade before it was finally enacted. At least twice the law had been tested and upheld in court, Deeds says.

Full Article: http://www.policeone.com/off-duty/a...ty-carry-law-more-about-what-really-happened/


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## OfficerObie59

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

The last five paragraphs of the full article address Delta's point regarding common sense:


> And there's still the matter of being judged by the court of public opinion. Some critics have suggested that the officers fostered their own problems by joining the congregation of bikers at the Sturgis rally, where a cautious person might have predicted the likelihood of trouble.


Overall, however, it appears the ruling they received was a check in the win column for H.R. 218. I hope the case becomes published.


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## Kilvinsky

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

Anyone here ride an Indian? Now THAT'S a bike to be respected.


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## Harley387

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Kilvinsky said:


> Anyone here ride an Indian? Now THAT'S a bike to be respected.


Only if it's an original Indian. Those Franken-bikes they were pushing a few years back were terrible. S&S Motors, and lots of plastic.


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## pahapoika

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

you can now basically build a old indian from parts or these guys will build on for you

http://www.kiwi-indian.com/


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## mpd61

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



Harley387 said:


> Only if it's an original Indian. Those Franken-bikes they were pushing a few years back were terrible. S&S Motors, and lots of plastic.


No shit huh! Almost as bad as an 883 sportster
:NO:


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## Harley387

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*



mpd61 said:


> No shit huh! Almost as bad as an 883 sportster
> :NO:


There's nothing wrong with an 883 Sportster.....as long as you're wearing a skirt and lipstick.


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## pahapoika

*Re: P1 Exclusive: Iron Pigs, Hells Angels, and universal off duty carry: Behind the s*

now, now

rode a friends 883 for a summer ( he was too busy in school ) while my kawi 750 sat at home .

now a hugger might be pushing it 

but even then it's nothing a 1200 kit can't solve.


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