# Self defense question



## Endo (Mar 29, 2009)

First let me say I have my LTC class A unrestricted. I belong to the NRA, GOAL, and several gun clubs. I practice regularly and I try to teach and involve as many people as I can. I say all of that so you don't think I am some j*** off kid asking a stupid question (I'm 35). I also believe that the #1 rule and best self defense practice is to avoid situations and places where you might need to defend yourself. The #2 rule is to chek your macho tough guy pride before you leave the house. I was always a calm level headed person but when I was given my LTC I quickly realized what a responsibility it was and I do not take it lightly. For as calm as I was, it takes even more to get under my skin now. I actually believe you can defuse almost ANY situation you get into without violence but more importantly you can escalate it too. Enough about my philosophy.

I was talking to a friend the other night about self defense and he asked "what is the line?" In other words, when are you justified to pull a gun on someone and that's when I realized that I don't think there is a black and white answer. Who defines whether or not your life was in danger? If someone pulls a gun on you, its pretty cut and dry for the most part but what if you get approached by 3 guys without weapons but you are by yourself and out numbered? I know you can't give me a "rule" but are there guidelines that you guys/gals go by when you are called to that type of a situation? Just curious what your opinions are.


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## jettsixx (Dec 10, 2005)




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## KozmoKramer (Apr 25, 2004)

Luckily, I haven't had to make that life altering and hopefully life saving decision, and I hope I never have to.
But if forced, my template is to parse the scenario through the "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" philosophy.

If my guns are only fired on the range and in the field that's OK by me, but it's not going to be me, my wife or children lying a pool of blood if I can at all prevent it.
I, like all of us here, walk within the confines of the law and polite society, but I don't practice on silhouette targets for nothing.
If you're armed and they bring it, you have to be ready to react, and that will likely bring unpleasant consequences.
Hopefully the DA will evaluate it sensibly, if not, be ready to lawyer up because YOU WILL NEED IT. But it's better than being dead.


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## Trifecta (Mar 3, 2006)

jettsixx said:


>




Easier than using the ladder


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## Guest (Aug 25, 2009)

Basically, for me, it's very simple. If I am with my kids, and it's any type of threat that has imminent physical harm to ANYONE... Gun will be produced. My kids can't retreat. If I am alone, it would be an entirely different evaluation process, considering I am an avid fan of martial arts, and the opportunity to practice is few and far between lately.


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## GeepNutt (Aug 10, 2005)

KozmoKramer said:


> Luckily, I haven't had to make that life altering and hopefully life saving decision, and I hope I never have to.
> But if forced, my template is to parse the scenario through the "I'd rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6" philosophy.
> 
> If my guns are only fired on the range and in the field that's OK by me, but it's not going to be me, my wife or children lying a pool of blood if I can at all prevent it.
> ...


 :dito:


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## Killjoy (Jun 23, 2003)

> was talking to a friend the other night about self defense and he asked "what is the line?" In other words, when are you justified to pull a gun on someone and that's when I realized that I don't think there is a black and white answer. Who defines whether or not your life was in danger? If someone pulls a gun on you, its pretty cut and dry for the most part but what if you get approached by 3 guys without weapons but you are by yourself and out numbered? I know you can't give me a "rule" but are there guidelines that you guys/gals go by when you are called to that type of a situation? Just curious what your opinions are.


The best answer I can give you is when you feel you are in _imminent_ danger of losing your life or someone else is in _imminent_ danger of losing their life, is when you are best justified in using lethal force. But, like everything else in the legal world, it is all based on the circumstances you find yourself in.

There are, in fact, two battles one faces if you are forced to use lethal force, the battle on the street, which probably took seconds, and the battle in the courtroom, which can drag out for years. As far as the criminal case goes the district attorney, depending on his or her particular views about civilian firearm use (remember where we live, so don't expect a lot of sympathy), will look at the totality of the circumstances of a case and decide if the state wants to proceed with criminal charges. Many factors will be analyzed, including, how exactly did the perpetrator put you in fear of your life? Did they brandish a weapon, be it a bat, knife or gun? Did they threaten you in any way? Was there an attempt to rob you? Did they not show a gun, but _inferred_ or _suggested_ they had a gun? Were there multiple opponents? Even if unarmed, a man alone, surrounded by many opponents, would be far more justified in feeling threatened then against a single opponent. Whether or not you could have possibly escaped the situation. Whether you are male or female plays a role, as, fairly or unfairly, a female is given a lot more leeway in how she perceives a deadly threat. This is just a sampling of the infinite number of factors that can determine whether or not criminal charges would be sought against you. I won't even begin to get into the civil case that the perpetrator's family will possibly bring against you.

The best way to defend yourself is through avoidance. Avoid stupid places and avoid stupid people. As a police officer, when off duty, I go out of my way to stay out of areas I know to be likely crime zones. Like liquor stores, convenience stores and bars, especially late at night. I spend a lot of my time observing people and doing what I can to stay away from persons I judge to be trouble. Even though I carry constantly, the last thing I want to get into is a gun fight, especially off duty. If I had to defend myself or my family's life, I am confident it would be quick and deadly (for the bad guy), as I do practice quite a bit. So while carrying a firearm gives the bearer a sense of confidence, never get to cocky about it because it is a *grave* thing to take a man's life, even in defense of your own.


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## Endo (Mar 29, 2009)

Killjoy said:


> The best way to defend yourself is through avoidance. Avoid stupid places and avoid stupid people.


I could not agree more. Our lives are nothing more than a self fulfilling prophecy yet everyone wants to blame everything on everyone else. Your odds of ever needing a gun to defend yourself or your family are almost zero. You can cut those odds by probably 90% just by making slightly better decisions then you otherwise would.


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## MetrowestPD (Oct 21, 2008)

The answer is the "reasonable person" standard. What would a reasonable person do in that situation, and the standard is subjective i.e. what a person in your shoes and with your knowledgebelieves. An example is a few years back the Miami? police shot the former Raiders lineman and he had no weapon. There were at least two officers and only one of him. The shoot was legit because a reasonable person (police officer in this instance) in that situation articulated that there life or serious bodily harm was in danger.

Now if your wife and kids are with you, the standard is easier to prove because a reasonable person would fear more for their safety.


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## Tuna (Jun 1, 2006)

Everything being said above is dead nuts on but the biggest thing you got to remember is that if you draw that firearm be prepared to use it (never as a threat) and be prepared to deal with the consequences. Yes the legal aspect of a shooting can be life changing the fact that you took a life will be with you forever. It may be a scar, a term or a badge of honor but anyway you slice it, its with you forever.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

jettsixx said:


>


 Courtesy of the MCJTC, copyright 1979.


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## Endo (Mar 29, 2009)

I have a wife, a 2 month old daughter and a 25 month old son. If I am alone in a store and it gets held up I would need to be 10,000% sure that someone was about to die before I would even begin the process of thinking about intervening. If I am not 10,000% sure then I am ducking behind the frozen food in isle 7. I'd rather be a witness than a defendant. Its just not worth the risk. If my family was with me I would separate from them for their safety and empty my gun into his chest as quickly as possible. When it comes to my family I would rather be a defendant than a victim. 

Life changed when I became a dad. You can't explain it to someone that does not have kids. My daughter is too young to show that she needs me or trusts me but my little buddy makes it obvious and I feel obligated to live up to his expectations. When he is afraid he runs to Dadda to make him feel secure and safe. I would never let him down.


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## BscBandit09 (Sep 11, 2009)

this is a subject i often bring up with people just to get a reaction. it is funny how many different answers can arise out of this topic, i am not a member of the law yet..(still waiting on dam civil service test) but i do know my stuff. i am an armed guard in Boston and know the responsibilities of having a firearm. from what ive learned there are lifestyles in which violence is systemic. If you live a certain way or associate with certain kinds of people, _ *your risk is greatly increased*_!!! it is better to avoid a situation and not get tangled up in a mess, however if a situation comes up which is inevitable where it is you and your life on the line i go with the reasonable person response. do what you know is right..if the guy is a hot head and not flashing steel no need to empty a mag but if things get ugly give them a lead makeover


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## Trifecta (Mar 3, 2006)

Isn't this ask a cop not noob opinions


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## 94c (Oct 21, 2005)

The bottom line is that whatever you do, you will definitely be held accountable. 

So happy shooting...


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## GreenMachine (Mar 26, 2007)

force continuum is not a ladder where you use each step, I was trained with the circle as any situation could go in any direction.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

BscBandit09 said:


> this is a subject i often bring up with people just to get a reaction. it is funny how many different answers can arise out of this topic, i am not a member of the law yet..(still waiting on dam civil service test) but i do know my stuff. i am an armed guard in Boston and know the responsibilities of having a firearm. from what ive learned there are lifestyles in which violence is systemic. If you live a certain way or associate with certain kinds of people, _ *your risk is greatly increased*_!!! it is better to avoid a situation and not get tangled up in a mess, however if a situation comes up which is inevitable where it is you and your life on the line i go with the reasonable person response. do what you know is right..if the guy is a hot head and not flashing steel no need to empty a mag but if things get ugly give them a lead makeover


 That was wonderfully insightful. You post can boiled down to two words: common sense.

Just keep in mind there is a guy on my job that might not be alive today if he followed your advice, unless of course you mean "flashing steel" to include a car that is about to run you over.


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## BscBandit09 (Sep 11, 2009)

OfficerObie59 said:


> That was wonderfully insightful. You post can boiled down to two words: common sense.
> 
> Just keep in mind there is a guy on my job that might not be alive today if he followed your advice, unless of course you mean "flashing steel" to include a car that is about to run you over.


well im glad he is alive and didnt take the advice but there is a guy i work with who is now in jail for protecting his wife. he was at a store24 out of state which was held up, he didnt act like a hero but was confronted did what the basterd wanted. he knew the area was bad but went to it anyway and on the way out the guy shot his wife in thew shoulder so he fired 4 rounds into him, killing him, he is now doing more time than the suspect thanks to a liberal judge. im just trying to say if u know the area is prone to trouble just avoid it.


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## BscBandit09 (Sep 11, 2009)

USMCMP5811 said:


> My troll dar is starting to ping here...Something tells me there's more to that story than just some liberal judge.....


well maybe your right and i may be just giving off what i heard.. but from what i was told there were 2 people robbing a store24, he hit one the other ran..the one who ran was the one who shot his wife..unfortunately he did not know that at the time.


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## jedediah1 (Jun 18, 2009)

did he shoot him in the back as he was running out the door?


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## Trifecta (Mar 3, 2006)

BINGO


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