# officer discretion speeding tickets opinions wanted



## EMT764911 (Feb 3, 2005)

you are doing a fixed radar post on a busy road vehicle occupied 1 time by a twenty year old female doing 52 in a 40. you stop her run her record clean driving history never queried by any other department. do you site her for full amount give her written warning or give her a verbal warning.


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

Written Warning. They now appear on KQ's (Driver history).


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## Macop (May 2, 2002)

Depends, attitude of the operator can be a factor, but a v/w or a w/w. Maybe a cite if I feel like writing one and definatley a cite if its a speed shift.


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## frapmpd24 (Sep 3, 2004)

No driver history and a good/positive attitude is generally a verbal or written warning in most cases providing the offense is not unreasonable. Honesty goes a long way with me in terms of my discretion. Of course if the driver is argumentative, wants to argue the merits of the ticket roadside, lie, or rude its a gig. 

One lie that I find most annoying is when asking if the person has ever received a citation. I cannot believe people that think we don't have access to their driving record.

Officer: "Have you ever received a citation before or been stopped?" 
Driver: "No, this is the first time, I have NEVER got a ticket"
Dispatcher: "The operator has 5 pages on their driver history"
Officer: :roll:


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## chief801 (Dec 8, 2004)

Driver history or attitude should have no bearing on whether or not you cite! You are citing the violation. If the violation is serious in your mind, write it. If not, give a warning. Our job isn't "screw the jackass", playing that game will eventually get you in the shit. Stay focussed on your mission. If you are deriving some sort of pleasure or satisfaction from giving a ticket you are personalizing the job. Once you start taking things in this job personally you are headed for problems. We want the respect as a profession, therefore, we have to conduct ourselves professionally.
If anyone is interested, read work of Dr. Kevin Gilmartin. He explains the slippery slope of over-identfying with the job and the problems it creates. Real eye-opener. But then again...what do I know?


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## Clouseau (Mar 9, 2004)

RPD931";p="59798 said:


> Written Warning. They now appear on KQ's (Driver history).


Citations in which you fine someone are on their history. They show either responsible or not responsible findings.

Warnings are not.


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## bbelichick (Aug 25, 2002)

chief801";p="59820 said:


> Driver history or attitude should have no bearing on whether or not you cite!


So...How long have you been a cop? :lol:


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## stm4710 (Jul 6, 2004)

Wolfman";p="59807 said:


> Write her. So what if she's never been stopped before, the journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step. :twisted:


 :L: :L: :L: :L: :L:


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## chief801 (Dec 8, 2004)

15 years bbelichick, long enough to know that getting pissed off at a knucklehead does me absolutely no good! All it ever did was make me do or say something that got me in the soup and had no bearing whatsoever on completing my mission. Deal in facts, make your decisions based on them, leave personalities out of it, you'll never wind up on the short end of the I.A. stick.


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## bbelichick (Aug 25, 2002)

chief801";p="59847 said:


> 15 years bbelichick, long enough to know that getting pissed off at a knucklehead does me absolutely no good! All it ever did was make me do or say something that got me in the soup and had no bearing whatsoever on completing my mission. Deal in facts, make your decisions based on them, leave personalities out of it, you'll never wind up on the short end of the I.A. stick.


Damn! You have to be the first Cop I ever heard of that's been out of the Academy over 6 months who espouses the "write the V, not the attitude" philosophy.

I never said you should get pissed off, just write the V and let the jerk get angry. Power of the pen...


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## j809 (Jul 5, 2002)

RPD931";p="59798 said:


> Written Warning. They now appear on KQ's (Driver history).


Written warnings do not show up on KQs, since the written warnings are no longer entered in the system since January 2002, they go to the trash at the RMV. It does show citations that were issued and the disposition such as R, NR,INC(pending hearing),Filed.


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## Guest (Mar 18, 2005)

The only time a warning shows on the KQ is if the citation contains other violations with a fine attached.


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## Zuke (May 8, 2004)

EMT764911";p="59797 said:


> you are doing a fixed radar post on a busy road


If I was doing a fix post, then I would do what I was there to do....gig her.
Write it for 50 in a 40.


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## Macop (May 2, 2002)

History and attitude should have a large part in the decision process. If the attitude is to admit they were speeding and not make up some lame ass excuss or try argue, to me that means a ticket may not be nessesary. If they want to argue and be shitheads and/or have a driver history, obviuosly a warning is not gonna make them understand that they need to slow down, so let contribute to the state funds.

In my mind some people need to be given a cite to slow them down, others a warning may suffice, sometimes I think I can get a read on the person I stopped as soon as I tell them the reason for the stop based on thier reaction and sometimes I can't. 

The only time I write every stop is on a speed shift.


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## Macop (May 2, 2002)

Or when the PATS loose, lol.


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## Panzer201 (Feb 28, 2005)

They just changed it so warnings now appear on the KQ. I have seen the them listed with a W where the disposition is.


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## dcs2244 (Jan 29, 2004)

Regardless of your criteria for deciding "gig or warning", male cops dealing with female lemmings should ALWAYS document the stop: written warning or gig...no verbal stuff. There are a lot of "psychos" out there who are willing to tell tales...if you have the written documentation of the stop, it erodes their credibility. "What are you trying to hide..." will be the attitude from the second deck if there is no documentation. :shock: 

Now, that having been said, I worked for a sergeant who had this philosophy when dealing with female violators: "The prettier they are, the bigger the gig: Because I know they have traded on there looks all their lives, and that somewhere, sometime, they have made some guy's life a living hell." :twisted: :wink:


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## stm4710 (Jul 6, 2004)

I happend to get a call from my mother last night. In the conversation I told her about the offer from MAPD,she asked that redundent question.......

So if you pulled over or had to arrest your friends..............would you give them a break? And I thought............and said a resounding NO, my two friends(MRC one of them) are the type of people that would not get into a sitiuation to need a break in the first place.

Anyone else, fair game. :twisted:


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## Macop (May 2, 2002)

dcs2244, I agree 100%, I learned that a long time ago, although I forget to do it I usually do.


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## Macop (May 2, 2002)

However v/w are documented in a log in my dept. That includes all the operator info and veh info and details of the stop.


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## masscops26778 (Jan 14, 2005)

I think the best predictor of future behavior is past behavior----So look at the history that's what it is their for. If all your professional law enforcement history you are never late to work then for unforseen circumstances your late and the boss gives you a harsh punishment then he has neglected to look at your past performance. On the other hand if your late every day and nothing ever happens then that is not sending the right message either. So use all of your tools that are provided to you.


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## j809 (Jul 5, 2002)

Gig everyone and makes it easier. :lol:


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## Mikey682 (May 2, 2002)

Unless shes a hottie :kitty:


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## Irish Wampanoag (Apr 6, 2003)

j809";p="60013 said:


> Gig everyone and makes it easier. :lol:


I agree this is not an audition for "American Idol" with attitude, performance, appearance and history etc... GIG for the violation. In God we trust all others pay cash!!! :twisted:


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## MVS (Jul 2, 2003)

j809";p="59872 said:


> RPD931";p="59798 said:
> 
> 
> > Written Warning. They now appear on KQ's (Driver history).
> ...


Interesting, I've been told otherwise and I've seen some of the warnings I issued show on a KQ with no disposition shown. Check any written warnings you've issued recently and see if they're in there.


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## Mitpo62 (Jan 13, 2004)

Gosh, if only I could do Chapter 90 like the real cops...... [-o&lt;


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## topcop14 (Jul 13, 2004)

52 in a 40. You have to be kidding. Verbal or written warning if the vehicle is even stopped. I would have to be hunting in most cases to stop for 12 over. Of course if the person is an asshole, Gig all day long ! ! ! ! 
Now lets change the citation a little.
66 in a 35. This + $310. gig. Will the nit wit pay it. No they will appeal it and the clerk and then the judge will knock it down to $100.


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## drewpopo (Dec 21, 2002)

I have the same feeling as chief801, "write the violation, not the attitude". 
When I first started the job I set rule's of what violations I would gig. 
ie. Speed 15 mph or over = gig Unless there is a good excuse
Speed 14 mph or under= written warning
Equipmant violation written warning, unless peron has already been given a warning. 

I give everyone paper, gig or written warning to document the stop. Where in Mass law does it say we can give verbal warnings?


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## Webster (Jan 6, 2004)

90c sec 2, doesn't seem to have a verbal warning provision. Does seem to use the word "shall" quite a bit though. 

"Notwithstanding the provisions of any general or special law, other than a provision of this chapter, to the contrary, any police officer assigned to traffic enforcement duty shall, whether or not the offense occurs within his presence, record the occurrence of automobile law violations upon a citation, filling out the citation and each copy thereof as soon as possible and as completely as possible and indicating thereon for each such violation whether the citation shall constitute a written warning and, if not, whether the violation is a criminal offense for which an application for a complaint as provided by subsection B of section three shall be made, whether the violation is a civil motor vehicle infraction which may be disposed of in accordance with subsection (A) of said section three, or whether the violator has been arrested in accordance with section twenty-one of chapter ninety. Said police officer shall inform the violator of the violation and shall give a copy of the citation to the violator. Such citation shall be signed by said police officer and by the violator, and whenever a citation is given to the violator in person that fact shall be so certified by the police officer. The violator shall be requested to sign the citation in order to acknowledge that is has been received. If a written warning is indicated, no further action need be taken by the violator. No other form of notice, except as provided in this section, need be given to the violator."


Much of 90c sec 2 redacted because it makes one prone to headache.

and here is the Legislative backdoor to allow some discretion..

Chapter 90C: Section 3 Issuance of citations; hearing; appeal; summons or warrant; complaint; trial; license or permit suspension

Section 3. (A) (1) If a police officer observes or has brought to the officer's attention the occurrence of a civil motor vehicle infraction, the officer may issue a written warning or may cite the violator for a civil motor vehicle infraction in accordance with this subsection. If the officer issues a citation solely for one or more civil motor vehicle infractions without any associated criminal violations, the officer shall indicate on the citation the scheduled assessment for each civil motor vehicle infraction alleged.

Shall to may, nice bit of work from the Hill.


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## drewpopo (Dec 21, 2002)

"Any police officer assigned to traffic enforcement duty shall, whether or not the offense occurs within his presence, record the occurrence of automobile law violations upon a citation" Like I said where in mass law does it say we can give a verbal warning.


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## T4567 (Jan 26, 2003)

i have a set speed for written warnings and $$ fine. Anything up 15 mph over speed limit gets a written. Over 15mph gets $$ fine.


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## Webster (Jan 6, 2004)

drewpopo, I don't think the law does. I think people infer that they are able because of the language in sec 3. Personally, if I took the time to light it up and pull it over. Paper flows.


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## frapmpd24 (Sep 3, 2004)

Webster";p="61204 said:


> drewpopo, I don't think the law does. I think people infer that they are able because of the language in sec 3. Personally, if I took the time to light it up and pull it over. Paper flows.


I agree, the option of a verbal warning is "infered". It would lie in your discretion options of "do nothing". I would say that it does not have to be explicitly stated in M.G.L. because it is an obvious option police officers have for their consideration. Having said that, I am not a lawyer either, it is just common sense. Furthermore, I am sure the court has accepted cases where both criminal violations and verbal warnings have been issued.

For example: Registration is revoked, uninsured, unregistered with a half dozen equipment violations. The criminal violations are charged (no verbals), but all equipment violations may not always be cited for in certain cases (not having to write 3 or 4 citations depending how bad). Another option for clarification on that question is an email to Pat Rogers, John Sheft, or the RMV. They will gladly entertain questions for officers.


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## topcop14 (Jul 13, 2004)

Correct me if I am wrong but under chapter 90 doesn't it forbid the judges and clerks from reducing speeding fines ? :lol:


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## copcar65 (Aug 16, 2004)

Couple of quick thoughts,

1) For those who think attitude doesn't count and "you should remember what your mission is": My mission is to get people to slow down. If I think I can do that with a warning (almost always written by the way) I will. If I think they need a $$ ticket to convince them I will do that as well. The biggest problem I have with $$ tickets is that anyone who appeals it will at least get it knocked down if not completely dismissed. The girl in the example feels bad about speeding and mails off her check for $120. It just doesn't seem fair.

2) Do you lock up every kid with a beer or do you sometimes summons or call their parents? Or maybe you have a certain limit like say if they have 4 or more beers in their possession I lock them up. That wouldn't make sense and speeding should be no different.

3) For those who think you need to strictly read Ch 90 as to prohibit giving verbal warnings I hope you are are all issuing citations every time a citizens complains that they saw someone speeding because the law requires that citation "whether or not the offense occurs within his presence". I am sure you are also requesting that the violator sign each citation. I doubt it.

Discretion is a very important part of every officer's job. That having been said I would not cite someone just because they have a bad attitude or history. If they have an older extensive history or their bad attitude is due to something other than the stop and I think a warning will get them to slow down, a warning it is. For me you really have to earn a warning. The way you do that is by showing me, through how fast you were going, your attitude, your history etc that no matter what I do, you're not going to slow down.

Anyone who thinks it should based strictly on the violation could very easily be replaced by a camera/radar system. (And I know you can't use them in Mass because you can't ID the operator). But you know what I mean.


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