# UMass and LEOSA



## nohocop (Apr 15, 2011)

Does anyone have a view on concealed carry at UMass under the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA)? To me, the issues are:

1. Under Ch. 269, Section 10(j) of MGL: (j) Whoever, not being a law enforcement officer, and notwithstanding any license obtained by him under the provisions of chapter one hundred and forty, carries on his person a firearm as hereinafter defined, loaded or unloaded or other dangerous weapon in any building or on the grounds of any elementary or secondary school, college or university without the written authorization of the board or officer in charge of such elementary or secondary school, college or university shall be punished by a fine of not more than one thousand dollars or by imprisonment for not more than one year, or both. For the purpose of this paragraph, “firearm” shall mean any pistol, revolver, rifle or smoothbore arm from which a shot, bullet or pellet can be discharged by whatever means.

Is an out of state officer considered a "law enforcement officer" under this statute?

2. Under LEOSA, is UMass considered state government property such that this state law would supersede LEOSA?


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

If the guy/gal has a badge and department issued photo id, no way would I give him a problem unless I was ordered to by a stupidvisor, and even then I would tread lightly.


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## 47turksinajar (Oct 24, 2010)

tip to the wise, if you do carry on umass make god damn sure no one can see it. The god damn tree hugging hippies will freak out thinking you're a narc. Then you would have UMPD SWAT team (all the young guys looking to shoot someone) throwing you to the ground before you would Identify yourself. :shades_smile:

But make sure you have your badge with you.


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

Okay here goes...

If you are an out of state LEO, attending UMass anywhere, and you're carrying _off-duty concealed_, then you _MIGHT_ be charged under 268/10J.
LEOSA would PROBABLY get the charge dismissed, however, you're looking at making case law, here in Massachusetts, like the Coast Guardsman and Pennsylvania Constable did in NYC.

Long time ago (1999)at UMB I went to class, twice in full uniform armed. Nobody even blinked. If you do it off-duty though, and the gun shows, you better hope the responding UMass PD Brother or sister responding is in a good mood and enlightened about LEOSA.


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## nohocop (Apr 15, 2011)

I'm not too interested in making case law! Certainly when I carry concealed it stays concealed. That's not my issue. My issue is to follow the law and it sounds like the law in Mass may not be clear. If UMass is "government property", then I think an out of state LEO may have a problem. If however out of state LEOs are considered LEOs in the state of Mass then I think they are good to go.


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## Guest (Apr 15, 2011)

I only charged this once on a campus, and it was a shitbag who was carrying OC without an FID. 269 10j (and some other stuff) landed him a 6 month vacation in Worcester County. We had other instances where a legal gun owner was carrying, and freaked some people out, I just calmly explained the whole scenario after checking license, and walked them over to our dispatch to secure in our gun locker. No harm, no foul. I did have a C/O off duty carrying, and my supervisor ordered me to take it. Same deal, I just told him the position I was in, and could we just work it out.


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## new guy (Sep 16, 2005)

5-0 said:


> I only charged this once on a campus, and *it was a shitbag *who was carrying OC without an FID. 269 10j (and some other stuff) landed him a 6 month vacation in Worcester County..


6 months for a 10j violation. I guess the judge must of concurred with your opinion of him.


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

47turksinajar said:


> tip to the wise, if you do carry on umass make god damn sure no one can see it. The god damn tree hugging hippies will freak out thinking you're a narc. Then you would have UMPD SWAT team (all the young guys looking to shoot someone) throwing you to the ground before you would Identify yourself. :shades_smile:
> 
> But make sure you have your badge with you.


Why would the TAC Unit get called out for a narc????

Didn't happen in this case and it was a shithead from Springfield...

The Daily Collegian

TAC Unit is probably getting ready right now, though. Just got a text from someone there that he standing by for the go ahead to assist Hadley with a riot.


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## BigAssDiesel (Mar 2, 2011)

I work as a fed and carry 24/7 I recently went back to school for my grad degree and in talking to on of my law professors (who is a very liberal DB) told her I was armed (conversation came up about active shooters at school) she flipped and I informed her I am required to carry at all times, even flying. Anyway, I saw a campus PD SGT and informed him, he said no big deal, but they do like to know who is carrying. I printed him out a copy of my sched. and gave him a business card.


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## mpd61 (Aug 7, 2002)

BigAssDiesel said:


> *I work as a fed and carry 24/7* I recently went back to school for my grad degree and in talking to on of my law professors (who is a very liberal DB) *told her I was armed* (conversation came up about active shooters at school) she flipped and* I informed her I am required to carry at all times, even flying*. Anyway,* I saw a campus PD SGT and informed him*, he said no big deal, but they do like to know who is carrying. *I printed him out a copy of my sched. and gave him a business card.*


What do you have on your facebook page? I'll bet it tells the world you're an armed fed!


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

LOL


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## nohocop (Apr 15, 2011)

Any UMass Amherst LEOs ever dealt with out of state LEOs carrying at UMass Amherst under LEOSA? Anyone know any UMass Amherst cops they could ask?


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## Guest (Apr 16, 2011)

BigAssDiesel said:


> I work as a fed and carry 24/7 I recently went back to school for my grad degree and in talking to on of my law professors (who is a very liberal DB) told her I was armed (conversation came up about active shooters at school) she flipped and I informed her I am required to carry at all times, even flying. Anyway, I saw a campus PD SGT and informed him, he said no big deal, but they do like to know who is carrying. I printed him out a copy of my sched. and gave him a business card.


I think I've spent half my adult life in school, and I've never told anyone I'm carrying.

Why would you want to give away a tactical advantage when you have no clue who the next active shooter might be?


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## new guy (Sep 16, 2005)

I take pride in my profession but the less people who know that I'm a cop while I'm off duty, the better.


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## 7costanza (Aug 29, 2006)

Thats always been my argument against open carry, not the right to, but just actually doing it.


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

nohocop said:


> Does anyone have a view on concealed carry at UMass under the Law Enforcement Officers Safety Act (LEOSA)? To me, the issues are:
> e


Carry it CONCEALED - keep it CONCEALED- don't advertise that you are carrying. How will anyone know if you are carrying, don;t be a whacker and advertise that you are carrying.

Other than employing your firearm for self defense how will anyone know whether or not you are carrying one?
.


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## Deuce (Sep 27, 2003)

skoolz for foolz yo...


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## nohocop (Apr 15, 2011)

Guys, I'm well aware - keep it concealed and don't tell anyone. But being a cop I want to be legal. If it's not legal I ain't doing it. Plain and simple.


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## Inspector71 (Sep 30, 2007)

BigAssDiesel said:


> I work as a fed and carry 24/7 I recently went back to school for my grad degree and in talking to on of my law professors (who is a very liberal DB) told her I was armed she flipped.


Why the hell would you tell her you're armed? Were you looking to cause some crap? You knew she was a "liberal DB". Hope she gives you an F grade. Then you go and Flash to campus cop, and give him your card...Why? worried you stirred some shit?
Or just letting the guys know you're available on certain days to join the SRT?


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## Big.G (Nov 28, 2006)

nohocop said:


> Any UMass Amherst LEOs ever dealt with out of state LEOs carrying at UMass Amherst under LEOSA?


Last time I checked, NoHo was in-state..... Unless, you're originally from eastern MA and consider NoHo to be in eastern NY....


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## Eagle13 (Jun 12, 2008)

nohocop said:


> Guys, I'm well aware - keep it concealed and don't tell anyone. But being a cop I want to be legal. If it's not legal I ain't doing it. Plain and simple.


Best way to find out is to go ahead and contact UMass PD directly. Let us know. Thanks.


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## firefighter39 (Apr 10, 2006)

BigAssDiesel said:


> I work as a fed and carry 24/7 I recently went back to school for my grad degree and in talking to on of my law professors (who is a very liberal DB) *told her I was armed*.


Your an idiot! Why the F would you tell anyone your armed? Especially knowing she is a liberal d-bag, it would serve you right if you did get jammed up because of this.


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## Irishpride (May 5, 2002)

If an LEO is carrying a concealed weapon out of state under the LEOSA, he/she has to follow the concealed carry laws for civilians in that state. So if it's unlawful for a civilian to carry on UMass with a LTC (which it is) it's unlawful for the out of state LEO. I have no idea about Feds. That all being said there is no reason at all to tell anyone (except a LEO) that you are carrying concealed, unless of course you are an attention starved douche bag


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## nohocop (Apr 15, 2011)

Irishpride, not correct. The whole point of the LEOSA is that it overrides the concealed carry laws of every state in the U.S. with two exceptions: STATE laws which allow state or local governments to prohibit carry on their property and STATE laws which allow private property owners to prohibit concealed carry on their private property. Except for those two circumstances, LEOs can disregard ALL the concealed carry laws of all states.


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## Irishpride (May 5, 2002)

nohocop said:


> Irishpride, not correct. The whole point of the LEOSA is that it overrides the concealed carry laws of every state in the U.S. with two exceptions: STATE laws which allow state or local governments to prohibit carry on their property


OK well it's still unlawful to carry on UMass property then Isn't it? Seeing as it's state property and there is a state law prohibiting it.


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## nohocop (Apr 15, 2011)

Yes. There is a state law which prohibits concealed carry at schools. If it's a public school then it's prohibited because it's government property. 

If it's a private school, then there has to be a state law which permits private property owners to ban concealed carry on their property (in essence, a trespass statute) and, in fact, the private property owner does prohibit it per that law. Simply having a law saying concealed carry is banned at schools doesn't get you there because that law is superseded by LEOSA. But if there is a state law which allows private property owners to prohibit firearms on their property, then LEOSA is superseded.


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## OfficerObie59 (Sep 14, 2007)

nohocop said:


> I'm not too interested in making case law!


Yup, I've researched the shit out of this issue and there's NO relevent case law related to or defining the police officer exemption.

One thing to keep in mind however: Private college campuses carry on duty under the authority of their LTC's--they have no statutory right to carry similar to 41/98. Thus, it may very well be possible that this provision was meant to be tailored to them. Sorry if I sound like I'm channeling Glidden here, but just a thought if you want to take the most conservative route possible.

Nonetheless, the language seems clear the exemption, in contrast to other previous laws argued here recently, is provided on the basis of being a police officer and _not_ based upon whatever role one tends to be playing at the time.

Still, it would seem to me if this issue ever goes to court, it's a jump ball. There's so little guidance on exisitng on the statutory provision any court can rule any way they want and will probably be able to rationalize it one way or another.



BigAssDiesel said:


> I work as a fed and carry 24/7 I recently went back to school for my grad degree and in talking to on of my law professors (who is a very liberal DB) told her I was armed (conversation came up about active shooters at school) she flipped and I informed her I am required to carry at all times, even flying. Anyway, I saw a campus PD SGT and informed him, he said no big deal, but they do like to know who is carrying. I printed him out a copy of my sched. and gave him a business card.


Yeah, don't anyone else ever do that.


Eagle13 said:


> Best way to find out is to go ahead and contact UMass PD directly. Let us know. Thanks.


Consider--is it better to ask permission or beg forgiveness? Again, just a thought.


nohocop said:


> Irishpride, not correct. The whole point of the LEOSA is that it overrides the concealed carry laws of every state in the U.S. with two exceptions: STATE laws which allow state or local governments to prohibit carry on their property and STATE laws which allow private property owners to prohibit concealed carry on their private property. Except for those two circumstances, LEOs can disregard ALL the concealed carry laws of all states.





nohocop said:


> Yes. There is a state law which prohibits concealed carry at schools. If it's a public school then it's prohibited because it's government property.
> 
> If it's a private school, then there has to be a state law which permits private property owners to ban concealed carry on their property (in essence, a trespass statute) and, in fact, the private property owner does prohibit it per that law. Simply having a law saying concealed carry is banned at schools doesn't get you there because that law is superseded by LEOSA. But if there is a state law which allows private property owners to prohibit firearms on their property, then LEOSA is superseded.


Not so fast. And your case law to back this up is what, excatly? 



> (b) This section shall not be construed to supersede or limit the laws of any State that-
> 
> (1) permit private persons or entities to prohibit or restrict the possession of concealed firearms on their property; or
> 
> (2) prohibit or restrict the possession of firearms on any State or local government property, installation, building, base, or park.


You're essentially arguing the LEOSA exception for private property owners (1) must be an "opt-in" or it is otherwise federally preempted by LEOSA because it is the state--rather than private entity--restricting posession. While you're argument is based upon sound principles, it isn't based on any substantive law. It's a great argument, but your opinion isn't the controlling law anywhere.

I, for one, can see various counter arguments that can easily be made. For example, LEOSA doesn't exempt police officers from carrying near K-12 institutions as probited by the GFSZA, the one passed after _US v. Lopez_. Seems to me the state could easily argue that since such a glaring omission was made, LEOSA was not intended to override laws pertaining to ALL learning institutions, and thus 269/10(j) could still stand on public policy and could withstand a premption attempt. Fairly unlikely, but with lib judges...

Or even more compelling, a court could rule the written permission exception of 269/10(j) is the very law they were referencing in exception (1) and that there is simply no distinction between a positive permission under 269/10(j) and the negative permission exception of LEOSA.

And try this one on for size: My school's weapons policy _is_ 269/10(j). All they did was incorporate the statute as their own policy. So in that case, what do you do? Whole new can of worms there. Is that a positive or negative exemption?

I'm not saying I don't like your argument--I do in fact, and it was an argument I had never previously considered, so thank you. However, to put forth your argument as it was controlling law is where I feel you went wrong.


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## nohocop (Apr 15, 2011)

The GFSZA is not addressed in LEOSA, so I agree, it is a glaring omission.

On the issue that courts can do whatever they want, all we have to go by are the plain words of the statute. If courts want to disregard them outright, I suppose we have a system of anarchy. However, I have more faith than that.

Also, almost all LEOSA case law has upheld LEOSA and the rights of the LEO to carry. See Rodriguez http://www.handgunlaw.us/documents/agopinions/NYCtLEOSARulingPeoplevsRodriguez.PDF

Booth People v Booth (2008 NY Slip Op 28206)

The Sturgis case: Weapons charges dropped against four Iron Pigs

San Fernando PD: Police Department contest to seize guns results in lawsuit after arrest - San Diego County Political Buzz | Examiner.com


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## Guest (Apr 18, 2011)

Jesus... I can't handle ANOTHER obie....

That is a compliment to both of you BTW.


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## csauce777 (Jan 10, 2005)

Delta784 said:


> I think I've spent half my adult life in school, and I've never told anyone I'm carrying.
> 
> Why would you want to give away a tactical advantage when you have no clue who the next active shooter might be?


Seems to be a no brainer. Why tell anyone you're armed?


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