# Question about being fired from PD



## TPD

As we all know in Massachusetts you can be fired for anything in your probationary period as a Police Officer. I have been an officer for years and never seen someone not fired for a dam good reason while in their first year or even later in their career. I had a probationary officer ask me a question. Dam good officer at that. I did not have the answer for hopefully some one here does. Are the grounds for termination spelled out anywhere in MA Civil service law? Also is there any recourse a fired prob officer can take if the firing is for something stupid like bad report writing, boots not shined, uniform not pressed or some other stupid thing to get rid of some one they just dont like. I know they are not entitled to a civil service hearing. Any help is appreciated. Thank you in advance for any help and Happy Holidays to all and STAY SAFE.


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## honor12900

Good question.


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## x148

i was told to "resign" or be terminated from a civil service town for some strange reasons, but i spoke with civil service attorneys and they advised me not to fight it due to the fact i was still in a probationary period, and the fact that termination looks bad compared to a resignation.


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## Bloodhound

MGL Ch 31, Sec 34 states, in part:

*"If the conduct or capacity of a person serving a probationary period or the character or quality of the work performed by him is not satisfactory to the appointing authority*, he may, at any time after such person has served thirty days and prior to the end of such probationary period, give such person a written notice to that effect, stating in detail the particulars wherein his conduct or capacity or the character or quality of his work is not satisfactory, whereupon his service shall terminate. The appointing authority shall at the same time send a copy of such notice to the administrator. In default of such notice, such person shall be deemed to be a tenured employee upon the termination of such period."

That's a pretty low standard that includes pretty much any reason including writing poor quality reports. And asyou said, there is no recourse through Civil Service. I know there was a case from several years ago where the officer's union contract required that even probationary officers can only be fired for "just cause". The court found that the contract overstepped Ch31 Sec 34, and just cause cant be required.


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## firefighter39

Most union contracts usually say that terminations during the probationary period are not subject to the grievance process


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## j809

LEOMINSTER, CITY OF vs. INTERNATIONAL BROTHERHOOD OF POLICE OFFICERS, LOCAL 338, 33 Mass. App. Ct. 121

Case Law. On probation you are screwed they can get rid of you for anything they want with no recourse.


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## cc3915

I recall a kid on my local PD that was fired while on probation because of a DV complaint from his girlfriend. The complaint was found to be false and he was still without a job.


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## Lookinforacopjob

x148.. You got screwed with shitty advice. You never should have resigned. I am guessing you have had zero offers since no one will touch you with a ten foot pole. FYI, pretty sure you got booted and replaced with a Deputy Chief's nephew? 

Here is a better question for you all. How long is your probationary period? Is is one year from your hire date, or one year from your graduation from a MPTC academy? Anyone have this in writing anywhere?


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## trueblue

x148 said:


> i was told to "resign" or be terminated from a civil service town for some strange reasons, but i spoke with civil service attorneys and they advised me not to fight it due to the fact i was still in a probationary period, and the fact that termination looks bad compared to a resignation.


What were the "strange reasons"?


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## pahapoika

not an expert by any means, but from what i've seen over the years anyone terminated during their probationary period is toast.

wish there was some recourse because some infractions are pretty minor.

best to live by the policy, keep quiet and stay off the radar for at least the first year.


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## mpd61

The "resign" safety net does work... saw it several times.


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## fra444

Lookinforacopjob said:


> x148.. You got screwed with shitty advice. You never should have resigned. I am guessing you have had zero offers since no one will touch you with a ten foot pole. FYI, pretty sure you got booted and replaced with a Deputy Chief's nephew? Here is a better question for you all. How long is your probationary period? Is is one year from your hire date, or one year from your graduation from a MPTC academy? Anyone have this in writing anywhere?


Your saying he got screwed with shitty advice and you don't even know when the probation ticker starts?!?! YUP! You've obviously got the ins and outs of the Civil Service firing process down......


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## Lookinforacopjob

fra444 said:


> Your saying he got screwed with shitty advice and you don't even know when the probation ticker starts?!?! YUP! You've obviously got the ins and outs of the Civil Service firing process down......


You ever think I may know his situation and is well aware he was less than a few months out of the academy when he was forced to resign. Read between the lines fra444. I clearly acknowledge why he was forced to resign.... Good luck x148, it was nice working with you.


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## fra444

Lookin, I did read your post and he got SCREWED but with resigning he has less to explain in future interviews and the old PD is less likely to tank any future opportunities. It wasn't bad advice it was a piss poor situation from your post. Either way the chiefs relative was getting the job.

---------- Post added at 16:57 ---------- Previous post was at 16:55 ----------

Oh and its one year from graduation.


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## x148

yeah i got replaced by the deputy chiefs nephew, and i was looking to transfer to braintree, i was 2 months out from being off probation, i had an interview with framingham state college and that was about it, it was nice working with you too, alot of good guys there.


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## Foxy85

Isn't Northampton famous for this? I've heard some crazy things about that PD. That being said, they are a very squared away PD, but I've heard they will be more than happy to dismiss someone during the FTO process / probation. This is after they've gone through great legnths to hire you too....Written Test, PAT, Bakground, Psych, academy, uniforms etc. I guess if you don't fit their mold, they find someone who does....


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## Macop

Probation is one year from your appointment date, which not nessesarily your graduation date, unless you get appointed the day you graduate.


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## Edmizer1

Foxy85 said:


> Isn't Northampton famous for this? I've heard some crazy things about that PD. That being said, they are a very squared away PD, but I've heard they will be more than happy to dismiss someone during the FTO process / probation. This is after they've gone through great legnths to hire you too....Written Test, PAT, Bakground, Psych, academy, uniforms etc. I guess if you don't fit their mold, they find someone who does....


Northampton is a strange place to work. They dropped out of CS about five years ago. They use the "San Jose" model of FTO training. Probationary officers are graded throughout their training on modules: street map knowledge, laws, reports, ect. If the new officer gets a failing grade in one of the modules at the end of a certain period, i think it is about 8 weeks, they are fired. They called it a probation release. My PD had an applicant who was a probation release from Northampton. Our background investigator spoke with a supervisor there who said that the guy was a good officer. When our guy asked why he was released, it was explained that the officer wasn't from the city when he was hired and got very poor grades on his street map knowledge at the beinging of his FTO program. Although his grades on that module improved while he was on FTO, when they added up his grades, he did not achieve a passing score at the end of that module so their rules required that he be fired.


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## Guest

Macop said:


> Probation is one year from your appointment date, which not nessesarily your graduation date, unless you get appointed the day you graduate.


Negative, it was changed to one year from academy graduation. Because academies are so long now, probation was sometimes shorter than academy time, so it was changed that probation now begins after the academy (which I agree with, BTW).

In my experience, you have to be a first class fuck-up to get fired during probation, as agencies will just come up with a creative way to get rid of you during the hiring process if they don't want/like you, rather than invest the time & money necessary to put you through the academy, buy uniforms & equipment, etc.


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## Lookinforacopjob

Delta784 said:


> Negative, it was changed to one year from academy graduation. Because academies are so long now, probation was sometimes shorter than academy time, so it was changed that probation now begins after the academy (which I agree with, BTW).
> 
> In my experience, you have to be a first class fuck-up to get fired during probation, as agencies will just come up with a creative way to get rid of you during the hiring process if they don't want/like you, rather than invest the time & money necessary to put you through the academy, buy uniforms & equipment, etc.


I read the CS law that someone posted earlier and I also interpreted it that it was one year from appointment date. I was appointed prior to my academy start date and would technically be off probation if that were the case. I guess I should just hope to not be a first class fuck up and I should be fine either way. Was just curious as we are changing our contract and want some wording in it to include the probationary period.

I also agree with you Delta.. You have to be a moron to get canned usually. But in cases like X148, he just plainly got fucked and I was just curious what would have been his option had he been in the same time frame I am in.


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## Guest

Lookinforacopjob said:


> I read the CS law that someone posted earlier and I also interpreted it that it was one year from appointment date.


It used to be, but since academies are twice as long as when I went through, some people only had a 5-month probation period, which isn't long enough to properly evaluate someone's performance.


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## BadApple

Bringing back an old thread here. In some cases like mine you don't have to be a Fu*K up to get bounced on probation. I was told to resign or be fired with two months left on probation for having questionable roommates that have undesirable friends. The Chiefs final say was I showed bad character by associating with undesirable people outside of work. I took the resignation,Now its coming to light that I was off probation since I was a reserve for 3 years before going to the academy. I'm sure people who read this will know who I am and what department did this, it doesn't matter at this point its all in the lawyers hands now. Oh I forgot to mention that with in two weeks of forcing me out they just happened to fill my spot with someone who was toying with suing the city stating they should have gotten the full time slot over me. Keep you posted


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## x148

I still havent got another police job, luckily i am using my gi bill and do my own diesel mechanic work and actually make more money now with less bullshit.


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## Macop

Foxy85 said:


> Isn't Northampton famous for this? I've heard some crazy things about that PD. That being said, they are a very squared away PD, but I've heard they will be more than happy to dismiss someone during the FTO process / probation. This is after they've gone through great legnths to hire you too....Written Test, PAT, Bakground, Psych, academy, uniforms etc. I guess if you don't fit their mold, they find someone who does....


A dept that fires people for some of the reasons they have doesn't strike me as squared away. A few of the people I know there don't seem to think the place is all that great, but I guess its a matter of opinion.


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